Author Topic: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?  (Read 42120 times)

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Offline kurplop

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Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 17:25:40 »
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.

I think that my hands are probably average size for an adult man. When I place my fingers tight together they fall about a third of a key short of home position spacing. That makes the current width of key spacing great for me and likely adequate for all but the biggest paw; I wouldn't want to mess with that.  My interest is in the vertical spacing.

The typical fingertip is wider than it is thick (nail to pad). That makes  me question the need for an unnecessarily tall (front to back) cap.

Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.

One thing I have learned in my two year quest for the perfect ergonomic set up is that our needs are not the same; what works for one may not help another. Because of that I'm curious, do you think you would benefit by having tighter columns? Besides lack of keycap availability in that size, what are the downsides of a closer vertical spacing?
 


Offline nomaded

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 18:14:37 »
Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.

While resting on home row, I need to move my whole hand to hit any key in the number row. But my whole hand is moving to hit any key in the row above home row. I also need to move my hand to hit the spacebar with my fingers. My hand does not appear to move to hit the row below home row, because I can curl my fingers enough to hit them.
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Offline spiceBar

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 19:20:15 »
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.

I think that my hands are probably average size for an adult man. When I place my fingers tight together they fall about a third of a key short of home position spacing. That makes the current width of key spacing great for me and likely adequate for all but the biggest paw; I wouldn't want to mess with that.  My interest is in the vertical spacing.

The typical fingertip is wider than it is thick (nail to pad). That makes  me question the need for an unnecessarily tall (front to back) cap.

Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.

One thing I have learned in my two year quest for the perfect ergonomic set up is that our needs are not the same; what works for one may not help another. Because of that I'm curious, do you think you would benefit by having tighter columns? Besides lack of keycap availability in that size, what are the downsides of a closer vertical spacing?

I need to move my hand to reach the number row, but I don't think I would type faster if the keys were 3/4 in height.

However I just hate to shoot someone's idea like that and I think you should create a mockup of your layout in PDF that we could print to scale in order to try it virtually. Then we could give a more reliable answer.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 20:23:40 »
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
* ergoplop 8-30 2 pdf.pdf (24.96 kB - downloaded 669 times.)
The blue represents full size keys.

I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.

Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
33691-133693-2

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 01 September 2013, 06:20:47 »
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.

I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.

Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

OK... I completely missed the fact that you were working on a layout for an ergonomic keyboard...  :-X

Offline Oobly

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 04:46:09 »
I think this is a fantastic idea! I agree that the horizontal spacing is pretty good, but the vertical spacing is too big. A tighter vertical spacing would be great on an ergo board. Just need "flatter" keycaps.

I prefer to have a split keyboard so I can arrange the spacing and angle for each hand independently, but otherwise your layout looks very nice.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 06:40:08 »
Thanks. I think it's worth the trouble to try it.

I was originally attracted to separated halves but later realized that the split angle and tenting addressed all of my ergo needs and in a neater arraignment; less exposed cables. I thought it might also be disorienting if the halves weren't always the same distance apart. And last, I really like the flexibility of a tray and the greater the separation the bigger the tray.

By the way, welcome to geekhack. I read that you're working on an ergo board. keep us posted on the progress.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 02:39:14 »
Thanks for the welcome!

I see. I guess it's a tradeoff between flexibility / customisation and clutter / inconvenience. I am still in the design stages of my board, but it's coming along nicely. I will play with a few options, wish I could try tighter vertical spacing, but for my proto I am using a hacked up plate from a Ducky so I don't have to cut 14mm holes / order a custom plate. I noticed how the horizontal stagger almost matches my ideal vertical stagger when using my left hand (from highest to lowest: middle, ring, index, pinky) so I figured I could use 2 sections of the plate for the main sections, with the 2nd one flipped over for my right hand. I'll add a cluster of 3 keys to the side of the index finger for each and a separate cluster of thumb keys at an angle.

In the picture you can see the added navigation clusters and Esc and Del keys, too.

I may start a thread if it proves a worthy project.

By the way, I think your ErgoDock and wooden rests are works of art! Great work!
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 September 2013, 02:43:53 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 08:54:13 »
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.
Spacing between fingers don't matter too much. It could even be larger, like on vintage TRON keyboards.
I think that spacing between rows, between index finger columns and between pinky columns could benefit from being smaller, though. That is especially true for the pinky keys.

If I were making a flat columnar keyboard from scratch, I would increase the column offsets a bit. Look at this M-system layout:


By the way, really nice thumb keys! Sculpey?
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 September 2013, 08:56:27 by Findecanor »

Offline microsoft windows

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 09:37:20 »
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.

I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.

Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE THIS KEYBOARD ONCE IT'S DONE!
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Offline yasuo

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 09 September 2013, 03:09:20 »
Spacing between fingers don't matter too much. It could even be larger, like on vintage TRON keyboards.
I think that spacing between rows, between index finger columns and between pinky columns could benefit from being smaller, though. That is especially true for the pinky keys.

If I were making a flat columnar keyboard from scratch, I would increase the column offsets a bit. Look at this M-system layout:
(Attachment Link)

By the way, really nice thumb keys! Sculpey?
:p i like the keyboard :p
this photo,he start with bottom row,can you explain
http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/computer/word/images/0027_02_l.jpg
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 September 2013, 04:27:02 by yasuo »
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 09 September 2013, 06:09:20 »

By the way, really nice thumb keys! Sculpey?

Sorry it took me a while to figure out what you meant by Sculpey. :-[

The caps in the picture was a first attempt at urethane casting. Based on the outcome, I hope there's truth in the saying "practice makes perfect".

Offline SeriouSSpotS

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 07:53:39 »
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.

I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.

Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

That is a nice looking design, looks like it would be comfortable
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 14:28:09 »
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.

I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.

Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Hm, I think I might like that layout your proposing. I'd love to try it.

In other news, THAT MOCKUP LOOKS AMAZING.

Offline bedrift

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 05 December 2013, 04:51:47 »
Very good initiative!
I would like the key spacing to decrease both horizontally and vertically, but I'll take what I get! :)

I agree with Oobly and Findecanor. Spacing between the hands would preferably be adjustable and I, for one, would like bigger separation between the hands than the picture. But don't let something like that demoralize you, since smaller key spacing is priority #1.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 December 2013, 05:00:44 by bedrift »

Offline jeffgran

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 13:16:05 »
Hadn't seen this thread until now. Kurplop -- I think you're on to something. I hate typing numbers on a normal keyboard because only my middle finger is long enough to hit them without moving my whole hand (so I can type 9 and 3 correctly but that's it). I had gone down the path of the 40%-like board where there is no number row and you type numbers with a function layer. But if you were able to make keys that were a little shorter, as you describe, that could be a very nice alternate solution. I've been aiming towards a setup where I don't have to move my hands of wrists at all -- all keys would be within easy reach of the "home row" position. I love your thumb keys too. It makes perfect sense to put them on an arc like that since  your thumb moves in an arc.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 15:39:54 »

I agree with Oobly and Findecanor. Spacing between the hands would preferably be adjustable and I, for one, would like bigger separation between the hands than the picture. But don't let something like that demoralize you, since smaller key spacing is priority #1.

I understand your desire for separated halves, I use to think I would prefer that also. When I started experimenting with my ErgoDox however, I discovered that tenting and splaying was all I needed to correct my pronation and ulnar deviation concerns inherent with a standard flat keyboard. This keyboard will also be used with a tablet for portable use and split halves would add a less portable dimension to the equation.

Hadn't seen this thread until now. Kurplop -- I think you're on to something. I hate typing numbers on a normal keyboard because only my middle finger is long enough to hit them without moving my whole hand (so I can type 9 and 3 correctly but that's it). I had gone down the path of the 40%-like board where there is no number row and you type numbers with a function layer. But if you were able to make keys that were a little shorter, as you describe, that could be a very nice alternate solution. I've been aiming towards a setup where I don't have to move my hands of wrists at all -- all keys would be within easy reach of the "home row" position. I love your thumb keys too. It makes perfect sense to put them on an arc like that since  your thumb moves in an arc.

Jeffgran, nice to hear from you. I've followed your progress on the ergo56 and can identify with the path you have been on. A lot of good ideas. Keep it up, we all benefit from each other's concepts and methods.

I had to set my project aside for a while for several reasons but will soon have the time to get back to it.

Offline bedrift

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 23:30:19 »
I understand your desire for separated halves, I use to think I would prefer that also. When I started experimenting with my ErgoDox however, I discovered that tenting and splaying was all I needed to correct my pronation and ulnar deviation concerns inherent with a standard flat keyboard. This keyboard will also be used with a tablet for portable use and split halves would add a less portable dimension to the equation.

I airtyped to try it and it feels like you're right.

I had to set my project aside for a while for several reasons but will soon have the time to get back to it.
I'm looking forward to it and its fruits!
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 February 2014, 09:15:09 by bedrift »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 29 January 2014, 19:42:42 »
I finally took some time and hooked up some metal working tools I bought last summer. Because they are old. It took a while to repair and get them in shape to use. I thought I'd jump right in and start milling one of the halves to the ErgoPlop.  I began by locating and drilling holes in the center of what will be the switch cutouts. Then I flipped it over and roughed out the underside. After I square out the switch holes I'll clean up the inside and trim the outer sides to spec.
 52660-052662-1

The overall design is pretty much what I was considering earlier in this thread. This will be a travel friendly unit with the vertical key spacing changed from the typical .75" o.c. spacing to .65". It will make the 5 row cluster a half inch tighter than standard. The rows are arched about twice as much as the ErgoDox's and I'm using all 1x caps to make the footprint as small as possible. Because the completed keyboard will be permanently tented, there will be room to have a separate board to mount the Teensy and other components beneath the switches. This will further reduce the overall footprint of the keyboard

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 31 January 2014, 20:34:22 »
One thing that’s nice about Alps switches is that they’re rectangular, which (since you seem to be making your own keycaps) means you can easily reduce vertical spacing.

I think typical horizontal spacing is okay, assuming you want a solid block of keys. [In the keyboard I’m making, I increase average horizontal spacing, but make the columns splay out a bit, to follow the directions fingers actually move.]

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 31 January 2014, 20:53:33 »
A little more progress on the right case. Things are coming together as well as can be expected but I did make a few mistakes cutting the rectangular holes for the switches. You can see the mis-cuts in the center of the board. My brother in law offered to TIG weld in the blunders. After that I can re cut the bad holes. 
A view of the underside.
52911-0
You can see the half inch shorter columns compared to conventional vertical spacing.
52913-1
The ErgoPlop will be about 5/8" narrower than the ErgoDox body (less thumb cluster) because of the 1x side keys instead of 1.5x,  but almost 1 1/2" shorter because of the Teensy mounted beneath the keyboard.
52915-2

The switches all fit snugly in their holes but I think I'll cut rings around the perimeter of each hole to make them thin enough for the switches to lock in. Right now the hollowed out plate is about 3/32" thick and I think I need to bring the edges down to 1/16".

Right now, the case is 3/4" thick with plenty of room for wiring. If I can get by with less I will likely mill the bottom down as much as reasonable to thin it down.

I'll probably make the other side and the thumb cluster before cleaning up and polishing this side. Who knows how it will all fit together and I will likely have to tweak things a bit.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 31 January 2014, 21:06:55 »
One thing that’s nice about Alps switches is that they’re rectangular, which (since you seem to be making your own keycaps) means you can easily reduce vertical spacing.

I think typical horizontal spacing is okay, assuming you want a solid block of keys. [In the keyboard I’m making, I increase average horizontal spacing, but make the columns splay out a bit, to follow the directions fingers actually move.]

I thought the Alps style switches would help the vertical spacing but it probably doesn't really. The Alps are .50x.60" compared to Cherry's .55" square. Sounds good but the Alps are a lot fatter above the plate compared to the Cherry's. The Cherry's pyramid in, giving you more room to fit a smaller keycap around them.

I'd like to see your keyboard. Have you posted any pictures of it?

Offline bedrift

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 04 February 2014, 20:58:29 »
*Dreaming that someone would mass produce this*

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 04 February 2014, 22:28:37 »
You can see the half inch shorter columns compared to conventional vertical spacing.
The Apple aluminium keyboards that you are comparing against does not have conventional vertical spacing. It is a tiny bit smaller on the vertical than on the horizontal. ;)

I am jealous of you for owning a mill... Looks awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:56:12 »
You can see the half inch shorter columns compared to conventional vertical spacing.
The Apple aluminium keyboards that you are comparing against does not have conventional vertical spacing. It is a tiny bit smaller on the vertical than on the horizontal. ;)

I am jealous of you for owning a mill... Looks awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Thanks for pointing that out, I never noticed before. The Apple keyboard is 3/32" shorter over 4 keys than standard 3/4" spacing. I wonder why they did that?

You're jealous? You should hear my wife. "Where's Kurt." "Oh, He's probably out in the shop playing with his new toy."

I am having fun with my mill but it is taking some time to get use to turning the cranks in the right direction. I'm sure it will become natural in time but in the meantime I anticipate a quite a few oops.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 May 2014, 23:44:48 by kurplop »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 18 February 2014, 22:31:50 »
One of the biggest obstacles in making a non standard spaced keyboard is what to do about the smaller caps. I was experimenting with making keycaps out of aluminum and was pretty happy with how it came out. I don't know if I will make them all out of aluminum or just make the 6 different profiles I need and then cast the rest in urethane.
54819-0
54821-1
54823-2

I left a brushed finish on the tops and polished the sides. The caps are standard width but 0.1" shorter front to back and shorter (height) to minimize overall size for portability.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 20 February 2014, 03:45:14 »
Those caps are beautiful! I'd make molds and cast some urethane caps. Good consistency and I think less work per keycap.

Quite jealous of your mill right now, but I have plans of my own to end up with machining tools :) This site: http://www.5bears.com/cnc.htm has given me big ideas. Slowly buying the needed parts as funds are available each month. Long term project.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 20 February 2014, 07:05:32 »
Those caps are beautiful! I'd make molds and cast some urethane caps. Good consistency and I think less work per keycap.

Good points. I have yet to be satisfied with my casting technique but it is still probably the best way to go.

Quite jealous of your mill right now, but I have plans of my own to end up with machining tools :) This site: http://www.5bears.com/cnc.htm has given me big ideas. Slowly buying the needed parts as funds are available each month. Long term project.

Isn't it funny how our interests branch out into other seemingly unrelated disciplines? All I wanted 2 years ago was a keyboard that was comfortable to use. Somehow, that led to spending 6 months with my face in several books on machining and filling up a garage with a bunch of 'needed tools'.

Your mill plans look impressive. I wish you the best with them. Some have questioned my getting a manual mill vs. a CNC mill. The speed and repeatability is desirable but I know it would probably take me a long time to figure out the CAD-CAM process and I wanted to get my hands greasy as soon as possible. At my age you don't buy green bananas.

Keep me posted on the construction of your CNC mill. Exploring the world of stepper motors, ball screws and zero backlash sounds intriguing. You have a creative and resourceful mind. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with next.

Offline bedrift

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 21 February 2014, 19:04:14 »
I suppose that it is positive that the upcoming matias ergo pro features 25 regular width, decreased height keycaps. They are arrows, copy, paste, home, end, function keys and so on. Hopefully someone will dare to make alphanumerical keycaps in the same dimensions soon.
http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/2.jpg

Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.

Best of luck on your project.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 21 February 2014, 19:28:20 »
Thanks for your encouragement.

I  suspect that the smaller caps have more to do with keeping the keyboard footprint as small as possible, which is a worthy goal on it's own, however, having smaller spacing on the middle rows would influence all the keys. Also, having the smaller spacing in the center should be easier to accurately hit because it is so close to the home keys. I wonder if that is why many outer keys are often larger?

I think that the Matias board is a good marketing direction to go and I hope it's a commercial success.  It should attract ergo-minded people who just won't invest the amount of time necessary to learn a radically different layout.

I have talked to many women who really like the idea of tighter spacing between keys. Their typically smaller hands are even less suited to standard spacing than men. 

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 21 February 2014, 21:03:37 »
I think outer keys are larger because the first Sholes typewriters had all round keys plus an enormous spacebar across the bottom. Then subsequent tyewriters ended up with round or rectangular keys, again all the same size, but with a ragged edge at the right and left sides because of the wacky horizontally staggered layout. Then at some point typewriter/computer makers wanted to fill in the extra space and end up with nice rectangular blocks of keys. Some of these designs just used the key top to fill the available space, and some designs made the pressable key-top a square but had a stagger and let a lower part of the keycap fill for the rest of the space (I think partly to avoid the stabilizer problem? that prevents off-center presses).  At some point those went out of fashion when people figured out that the associated gaps between the pressable key areas led to people missing the keys, and so keyboards all just ended up with stabilizer bars on the larger keys, instead.

Basically, at least 95% of every popular keyboard layout was just copied straight from the previous generation, and no mainstream manufacturer has really questioned the main design features like 1/2 – 1/4 – 1/2 key stagger, 19mm spacing, large keys on the side that fill all available space in a rectangular block of keys, qwerty or similar key layout, one big spacebar with few other tasks for either thumb.

There have been some mass-market ergonomic keyboards, like Microsoft’s, but they only make a few small changes from the standard keyboard.

* * *

If keys are going to require overall hand movement to reach, then I’m sure there’s some advantage to having larger keys (e.g. tab, return, backspace, control), but I’m fairly convinced that it’s ultimately better to stick to small keys, and just make them all trivially reachable without much overall hand movement.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 21 February 2014, 21:08:12 »
I have talked to many women who really like the idea of tighter spacing between keys. Their typically smaller hands are even less suited to standard spacing than men.
Me too. I’m curious if you know any women (or men) with small hands who have tried the μTron. I tried it at HaaTa’s Bay Area meetup a couple weeks ago, and I found that the smaller key size made it a bit tricky for me to accurately hit the keys. But I suspect that the issue there is (1) the horizontal stagger, and (2) the narrower-than-usual width of the key. My guess is that reducing the depth of a key, especially on a keyboard with roughly vertically staggered columns, will not cause the same issues. Although perhaps women with small hands would also prefer keys closer together horizontally.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 22 February 2014, 08:24:14 »
Most of the women I asked were not necessarily aware of the variety of keyboards available. They did think tighter spacing would be beneficial, some were enthusiastic about the possibility. I think small hands could benefit from closer horizontal and vertical spacing but larger hands could feel confined with reduced horizontal spacing. I think only the largest hands would suffer from a 15% reduction in vertical spacing.

I suspect you are right about the reason for larger outer caps. it makes sense to fill in the gaps. The ease  of striking the keys are a secondary benefit.


Offline berserkfan

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 22 February 2014, 18:42:51 »
Good point. Here is what I'm working on.
(Attachment Link)
The blue represents full size keys.

I decided not to wait for opinions. I know I will benefit from it so I started making keycaps today.

Here are pictures of a rough mock up I assembled before latest changes
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Hm, I think I might like that layout your proposing. I'd love to try it.

In other news, THAT MOCKUP LOOKS AMAZING.

Looks like a stealth bomber.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 06:52:48 »
Huh. The Datadesk Smartboard apparently had variable sized keycaps http://www.atpm.com/12.05/smartboard.shtml narrower toward the center:

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 06:54:56 »
By the way, Kurplop, you might be interested in http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 08:10:47 »
By the way, Kurplop, you might be interested in http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099

The extinct keyboard thread is very enlightening. Browsing through it makes me wonder if we are trying to reinvent a wheel that has been spinning down the road for some time. It's too bad most of them wobbled into the ditch. Many creative and good ideas.

It shows how much an uphill battle it is trying to separate people from the death grip they have on their non-ergonomic but familiar traditional keyboards.

Huh. The Datadesk Smartboard apparently had variable sized keycaps http://www.atpm.com/12.05/smartboard.shtml narrower toward the center:
Show Image


The Smartboard seems to use varying sized keys to create a slight radial aspect to the columns. It looks like a good design. How did it do commercially?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 08:36:08 »
I am finally ready to start casting some of the caps for my undersized layout spacing. I finished milling and sandblasting the 5 masters for the different rows and hope to begin casting today. After some experimentation I think I came up with a process that will work.

I super glued toothpicks to the bottom corners of the caps to create breather holes in the molds and a small syringe at the cap stem. I'll use the cut off syringe to fill the mold and create a head of pressure to assist the flow of resin through the mold.
68009-0

Here are the masters I used to make the molds.
68011-1


Here's a view of the profiles of the caps.
68007-2

I still have to mill the pie shaped caps for the thumb clusters but have finished the switch plate and am almost done with the wood body.

The progress on the keyboard is coming along nicely now. It's amazing what you can get done when you take a few weeks off work. I hope to bring the finished keyboard to Keycon 2014.  See you there!
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 June 2014, 08:39:01 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 12:57:36 »
...
I have talked to many women...

You already have a leg up on most of us then :)

This is a great thread. It's important to note, that keyboards like the kinesis advantage that utilize concavity are already effectively shrinking the the space in between the keycaps at their surface. I've  come to really love the curvature along the Y axis of my kinesis, but I do not like the curvature on the X. I think this has more to do with the angles than the reduced target area, though. Your idea to reduce just the vertical on a flat keyboard sounds like the right choice to me.

I'm apparently one of several boarders currently trying to get their milling machinery up and running to finally produce their dream keyboard. Mine will utilize concavity only on the Y axis, and will have a simplified thumb cluster like yours but with only 3 thumb buttons. I strongly feel that people are trying to have their thumbs do way too much on these ergo boards, and applaud your design. I went with ducky green alps switches, and let me tell you, it was an easy decision. The only downside is the keycaps which are a pain to source...but you wouldn't have that issue.

Just great stuff in this thread from top to bottom. I can't believe youre casting your own keys, that's a level of crazy I don't intend to go to... unless yours turn out really really nice. I am running out of space in my damn garage though. Can't wait to see more! Simply making those caps on a traditional mill is an impressive accomplishment. I upgraded to CNC out of necessity, I didn't have the patience for turning those cranks (though a power driver did help, and controlled the feed speed which is important).
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 June 2014, 13:00:48 by Zekromtor »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 15:17:37 »
Zekromtor- Thanks for your comments. 

I noticed the virtual closer vertical spacing when I tried the Advantage a few months ago. I liked it but I didn't use it enough to get use to the radial path the curved key wells produce.  I'm looking forward to see what you come up with.

 As I get use to my mill I find that it is a lot of fun to use. It is so much more precise than my wood working machinery. Still, I think it would get pretty boring on repetitive tasks and something more automated would be more appropriate for any kind of production work.

I have enough put together on my keyboard to know that it should be very comfortable for me. Because it has only limited adjustability, it may or may not feel right for others but I still think the reduced vertical spacing would be an improvement for most users.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 16:34:03 »
The step (don't know the actual term) in between keys places a huge role as well -- where the bottom edge of the upper key is higher than the top edge of the key below it. If you ever watch a Korean pro gamer in action you'll appreciate quickly how important that small ledge can be (
note how flat the finger is when using the upper rows). It makes it far easier to hit the top key without accidentally touching the bottom key, and can in turn allow for tighter spacing. Looks like your key caps have a nice step built into them. I'm not a fan of flat keyboards that use caps that have no step built in, your finger has to do more work to hit them precisely. The question for another thread, then, is what is the ideal amount of step? I'm using .2" which is a tad more than average I believe... could be wrong though.

I do like the idea of having uniform key caps and having the switch positioning provide the step... it would never happen on a mass production model, but for my own purposes that's what I'm going with. You'll have more uniform activation force if the key top is exactly perpendicular to the motion of the switch, but it's not enough for anybody to care about except the OCD like me.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 17:46:40 »
Ideally, I think you want to decide the axis of switch based on the main direction of finger movement when you’re pressing the switch. In general, I (and I believe most people) press the switch mostly by swiveling the whole finger around the joint at the finger’s base, where it meets the palm, while leaving the other finger joints mostly rigid (the two distal finger joints are used for positioning the finger, but not for actually pressing the keys, in my experience). The direction of motion at the fingertip is therefore pretty close to up-and-down, especially for further-away keys that you have to reach for.

Therefore, I personally find the Kinesis to be noticeably suboptimal because it expects me to be pressing away from my body as well as down for the top rows (and pressing sideways for the side columns of keys). It’s forced to do this by the curved PCB design. But if you can place switches arbitrarily and hand wire them, I think you want the further rows to be a bit higher off the table than near rows, but still angled about the same.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 June 2014, 17:48:30 by jacobolus »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 18:50:04 »
Ideally, I think you want to decide the axis of switch based on the main direction of finger movement when you’re pressing the switch. In general, I (and I believe most people) press the switch mostly by swiveling the whole finger around the joint at the finger’s base, where it meets the palm, while leaving the other finger joints mostly rigid (the two distal finger joints are used for positioning the finger, but not for actually pressing the keys, in my experience). The direction of motion at the fingertip is therefore pretty close to up-and-down, especially for further-away keys that you have to reach for.

Therefore, I personally find the Kinesis to be noticeably suboptimal because it expects me to be pressing away from my body as well as down for the top rows (and pressing sideways for the side columns of keys). It’s forced to do this by the curved PCB design. But if you can place switches arbitrarily and hand wire them, I think you want the further rows to be a bit higher off the table than near rows, but still angled about the same.

I see what you're saying, and you may be correct. The progamer in the video I linked certainly showed him using the technique you describe. My theory behind curvature on the vertical is that your fingers would actually prefer to hit the keys that are at different distances in a different manner, using more of a stabbing motion on the higher keys and a clawing motion on the very low keys while continuing to do the more typical motion you've described. Less overall motion is required, and none of the motions are alien (unlike some of the thumb motions that are required to make use of all the thumb keys). It feels good to me at least, having typed on it for a month or so, I definitely prefer the shape to that of the MS 4000.

Have you typed on a keyboard with curvature long enough to test it for yourself? I'm not 100% sure curvature is the optimal at this point. I just know it feels good right now.  The kinesis may even be a bad test for pure curvature, as there are some extreme height differences on the columns that were causing me some pretty bad pain at first, and might be to blame for people who have tried and abandoned the kinesis.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 20:12:37 »
I’ve never tried a curved keyboard for weeks at a time, so it’s possible I’d just get used to it.

The Maltron seems a bit better in this respect than the Advantage, because it’s hand wired, so it doesn’t need to have keys pointed perpendicular to a curved PCB the way the Advantage does.

I don’t think either has the greatest thumb section, though the primary two thumb keys on the Maltron are oriented pretty well.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 14 June 2014, 22:00:53 »
A lot of thought and trial and error has gone into trying to find the best shape, the right angles and amount of stepping between rows of keys.
Having the reduced spacing required that I restrict the angles of the cap sides to the uppermost part of the cap. That was necessary to fit the alps style switches within the cap.

The stepping and top angles started as the DCS spec's then was modified to work with my specific application. I tried to keep the caps as short as possible without compromising function because the amount of wobble inherent in the switches intensifies as it gets taller. The top caps are still pretty tall. The stepping is especially important on the upper row thumb keys where the thumbs lateral orientation makes picking between rows especially difficult.

I'm sure there's room for improvement but it feels pretty nice.

I also tried to provide space on the front angle for some kind of legends. I thought I'd try slide transfer decals. By keeping off the working part of the cap they should have a better chance of holding up. Any thoughts?

As of now, I've made about 30 caps of which I'm happy with about 12. It's nice to see them set in the keyboard.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #45 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 05:48:57 »
You have pics of the finished caps? Those top 3 pics are all of the masters, right?

And what switch did you end up deciding on? I'm not an expert, but I know there are at least 2 different mounting methods for alps switches. It may be of no consequence to people using the standard thickness mounting plate, but it made a huge difference in the design of my thick acrylic mounting plates ( http://i.imgur.com/OpnhZLy.jpg ). The ducky alps have tabs centered on the left and right, and the Matias switches and possibly the older alps (i don't know) lock at the corners.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 06:30:54 »
And what switch did you end up deciding on? I'm not an expert, but I know there are at least 2 different mounting methods for alps switches.
Which two methods are you referring to? Alps switches have little plastic clips which hold onto a metal plate, which should have a rectangular hole cut in it the size of the switch. Every Alps-switch keyboard I’ve ever seen used the same “mounting method”. :-)

I don’t recommend using a plate thicker than about 1.5mm, because then the triangular plastic clips won’t be able to clip in. 1/16" acrylic might work, I plan to try it in the near future.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 06:57:27 »
I'll take pic's of the finished caps when I get a chance. I'm using Matias switches. I think I'll keep the clicky ones on, they really sound great resonating through the case but they are loud.  I am also using 8 cherry reds for the radial thumb keys. They have less play in them and because the radial keys are a bit bigger, I wanted them to be stable without having to use stabilizers. I think they require less force to activate, which may be a good idea considering the thumbs direction of travel.

My plate thickness is currently just over 1/16" so the tabs don't quite lock. I don't know how thin I can mill the 6061 aluminum before it loses the rigidity necessary to prevent flexing. It has been a blessing in disguise during it's development because it has made it easier to remove the switches for testing and adjustments.  I may just make a slight rabbit(sorry for the woodworking term) on each edge where the tabs would engage. Any suggestions are welcome.

I hesitate to post pictures of the entire keyboard yet because it looks a little rough unfinished but it won't be long now.  Except for minor tweaking of angles and dimensions and the addition of a scroll wheel, it resembles the mockup I posted in this thread last summer.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:13:17 »
And what switch did you end up deciding on? I'm not an expert, but I know there are at least 2 different mounting methods for alps switches.
Which two methods are you referring to? Alps switches have little plastic clips which hold onto a metal plate, which should have a rectangular hole cut in it the size of the switch. Every Alps-switch keyboard I’ve ever seen used the same “mounting method”. :-)

I don’t recommend using a plate thicker than about 1.5mm, because then the triangular plastic clips won’t be able to clip in. 1/16" acrylic might work, I plan to try it in the near future.

You're referring to the 4 triangular clips near the corners right?

The ducky alps are different. They use a method like the cherry switches with 2 tabs, but whereas the cherry switches have a tab centered on the top and bottom, the ducky alps have their tab centered on the left and right. It makes it work with the method of using a thick mounting plate so long as clearance is machined for the tabs. My image linked above shows the rear side of my mounting plate where this clearance has been provided, kurplop just referred to it as a rabbet which may be the proper term.

Using acrylic thin enough for a uniform mounting plate would probably be pretty flimsy, but still better to have some plate mounting than none at all.

I'll take pic's of the finished caps when I get a chance. I'm using Matias switches. I think I'll keep the clicky ones on, they really sound great resonating through the case but they are loud.  I am also using 8 cherry reds for the radial thumb keys. They have less play in them and because the radial keys are a bit bigger, I wanted them to be stable without having to use stabilizers. I think they require less force to activate, which may be a good idea considering the thumbs direction of travel.

My plate thickness is currently just over 1/16" so the tabs don't quite lock. I don't know how thin I can mill the 6061 aluminum before it loses the rigidity necessary to prevent flexing. It has been a blessing in disguise during it's development because it has made it easier to remove the switches for testing and adjustments.  I may just make a slight rabbit(sorry for the woodworking term) on each edge where the tabs would engage. Any suggestions are welcome.

I hesitate to post pictures of the entire keyboard yet because it looks a little rough unfinished but it won't be long now.  Except for minor tweaking of angles and dimensions and the addition of a scroll wheel, it resembles the mockup I posted in this thread last summer.

I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage. Both have just a beautiful click to them, the only difference being the ducky's resistance become substantially less after the click, likening it more to the feel of a buckling spring. The matias seems to have the same resistance throughout the press, which could actually be a good thing since it will cause the switch to reset faster and may lessen the chance of you bottoming out. My wife is just going to have learn to love the sweet music I'll make as I click away on those bad boys. It's the big ass spacebars that are the real noisemakers, and we, the embracers of opposable thumb design, do not suffer from such a sound.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:14:51 by Zekromtor »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:47:30 »
So I just have been doing experiments, and one thing that seems to work okay so far is machining a little pocket that snugly surrounds the switch on 5 sides, with a couple of holes cut in the thin bottom for the leads to stick through and trying to as closely as possible match the 3-dimensional switch shape. I’ll try to make another couple experimental holes in the MDF I’ve been using in the near future, so I can demonstrate.

The other thing that works for MX switches, and I believe might work for Alps switches as well, is laser-cutting several layers of 1/16" acrylic: one with holes just like a typical metal plate, and then a couple more layers below allowing some extra space for the little plastic clips so they don’t get smushed (or potentially one thicker layer for this).

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #50 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:50:09 »
I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage.
I highly recommend you try to find an Apple M0115 or M0116 on ebay to salvage orange Alps switches from, and then swap in Matias clicky switch click leaves. The resulting franken-switch is very nice, a bit lighter weight than the Matias switch, a bit smoother, and noticeably less wobbly, and old Apple keyboards are relatively easy to find cheap.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:52:05 by jacobolus »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #51 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:27:18 »
One change I haven't noted was my abandoning milling out the 1" aluminum block to make the plates. I originally began working on a heavier piece to be able to design a plate that would allow the thumb cluster switches to interlock with the alpha plane switches. A straight bend in the plate would have the bend crossing over some of the switch holes which wouldn't work. By milling from a thicker piece I could make a more complex plane shift to allow for the interlocking switches. After 2 redesigns I realized I could achieve the same result by breaking(bending) a 1/8" plate and milling most of the top side of the thumb plane and the bottom side of the alpha plane to 1/16".  This provides an area at the intersection that will flatly seat the laced switches. It also saves both milling time and aluminum!
* ergoploped out-Detail 2 break likes.pdf (31.7 kB - downloaded 253 times.)
The picture shows red lines indicating where I bent the plate at four places. The thumb cluster bend problem is obvious had I just used a 1/16" plate. I thought it was critically important to keep the switches as close as possible at the transition to allow the greatest accessability  to the thumb keys.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #52 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:38:37 »
I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage.
I highly recommend you try to find an Apple M0115 or M0116 on ebay to salvage orange Alps switches from, and then swap in Matias clicky switch click leaves. The resulting franken-switch is very nice, a bit lighter weight than the Matias switch, a bit smoother, and noticeably less wobbly, and old Apple keyboards are relatively easy to find cheap.

Dammit, now I wish I had done that before getting so far into this. You wouldn't happen to know if those old apple keyboard's have uniform keycaps would you? The alps MBR-101 I got had different profiles on each row.

How are you bending the aluminum? Do you have a tool for that or just clamping it on an edge and doing it by hand?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #53 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:47:21 »
I have a 48" brake.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #54 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 09:44:18 »
Nice. I'm still trying to decide between a machined solution or an acrylic bend to set my thumb cluster at a different angle. What's the angle of the bend you found works best there? (the amount of bend applied via your brake, not the offset angle which I can see is in the 40 to 45 degree area). It's difficult to tell what it is on my kinesis due to the curvature, anywhere from 10 to 20 I'd guess.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #55 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 10:20:45 »
I was afraid you'd ask that. I'm not sure. I originally bent the cluster/alpha bend at around 17degrees but when I realized it created a bit too much of a negative tilt back I flattened it about 5  to 10 degrees then added a 5 to 10 degree bends close to the buttons. That really gave it a nice feel but it also complicated the build of the wood body that encloses it. 

When I take it apart for the final painting I'll get accurate measurements. The keyboard is a bit high at 3" not including the trackball but is quite compact in the other dimensions. The tenting does provide room for the components to fit directly under the keys so it minimizes the necessary footprint.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #56 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 10:45:18 »
Interesting. So your thumb cluster is a bit convex then if I'm understanding that right.

The height may or may not be an issue depending on your desk/seat arrangement. The way I have my split kinesis advantage tented right now, the top of the thumb cluster buttons is near 3" as well.

I'm afraid the thumb cluster is just going to take a ton of experimentation for me. Perhaps the ideal keyboard would have an almost 90 degree bend, so the thumb would move more like your other fingers when pressing keys, but after a lifetime of learning to actuate buttons with the side of the thumb, that motion feels uncoordinated by comparison, regardless of it's a more theoretically ergonomic position.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #57 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 16:07:43 »
I've made peace with the lateral thumb motion. I don't think it is much of an issue.  I think I angled the thumb cluster to keep the trackball and its buttons from being too high as much as to improve the thumb motion. I'm sure some would disagree with that thinking.
A much bigger issue for me has been the outside columns of keys which my pinkies don't get along with well. If you compare the last drawing with the one made last summer you'll notice I solved the problem by eliminating them. Good riddance!

Interesting. So your thumb cluster is a bit convex then if I'm understanding that right.

The actual bends are quite sharp and the planes are all flat, which I guess sounds redundant since all planes are flat.  To better describe the various planes, the 3 mouse buttons are dead level, the first angle puts the thumb clusters falling off to the sides (3:00 and 9:00) at roughly 19 degrees and the alpha planes are at 22 degrees from level, falling off towards 2:00 and 10:00. As you can see, my 5-10 degree earlier guess was way off on the center bends. When I post pictures it will all make sense..... I hope.

The overall height feels fine . I think it's because the outside keys are pretty low. I will be using this one in my lap and/or on a lowered tray so it won't be an issue anyway.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 17:51:33 »
Wow you weren't kidding. That second pinky column has been eradicated -- I did not notice that. There are a few keys there that I actually prefer over the pointer finger's third column, and I only use two of them with my pinky anyhow. This will disgust you though: I'm still using shift on that row. In my quest for WPM I've found it hard to put the shift key anywhere else and still be able to type with the same speed. I know for a fact that some of my worst pain has come from the strain of repetitive use of the left shift... back when shift-looting was still a necessary evil in WoW...ugh.







Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 20:08:25 »
I admit that I  shift with my left pinky also. I think it's because I need the four useable thumb keys on my ErgoDox for other things. When I got a Truly Ergonomics board I got use to the shifts being up one row which I prefer to its standard position. That will definitely change with the new keyboard since the outside columns have been eliminated. I think I will assign the upper right outside thumb key for shift and its twin on the other side for L1. From there I can easily and comfortably reach every key on the board with another finger. The lowest radial keys will be for L1 lock and Caps lock because they require a slight reach. I considered not having the fourth radial key but thought it would work great for the infrequently needed keys and the mouse buttons needed the keyboard depth anyways.

By the way are those monitors all yours?

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #60 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 21:34:56 »
Sounds good, but what is this Caps Lock key you speak of and does it really need a place on your keyboard?

Yeah the monitors are mine, though I don't really have a use for them atm as there's nothing fun to multibox. You can click the sig for my troll site. Wouldn't bother reading any of it, but there are some pretty pictures.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #61 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 22:38:37 »
Sounds good, but what is this Caps Lock key you speak of and does it really need a place on your keyboard?

OF COURSE IT DOES!!!!!
What is with this intolerable hatred directed at the humble Caps Lock key? I actually use it all the time for my CAD annotations on my architectural drawings.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 22:50:09 »
Well if you have the room for it then :)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 16:29:53 »
My plate thickness is currently just over 1/16" so the tabs don't quite lock. I don't know how thin I can mill the 6061 aluminum before it loses the rigidity necessary to prevent flexing. It has been a blessing in disguise during it's development because it has made it easier to remove the switches for testing and adjustments.  I may just make a slight rabbit(sorry for the woodworking term) on each edge where the tabs would engage. Any suggestions are welcome.
By “rabbit” do you mean “rabbet”? Anyway, if you can mill at an angle, I also think a beveled edge would work (i.e. a larger hole at the bottom edge than the top edge). Or you can just not worry about potentially snapping the little clips off. Or you can make the hole very tight to the switch size [hoping that the tolerances are pretty good from switch to switch], but include some kind of little cut-out notch for the plastic tabs to rest in.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 18:35:15 »
Thanks for catching my spelling error. It wasn't just an oversight, I just assumed it was spelled that way. I have probably spoken that word thousands of times and seen it in print as many. Isn't it funny how we see what we think is there more often than we probably imagine.  Anyways, yes I meant rabbet, the wood edge detail, not rabbit, our furry carrot loving friend.

The holes I cut are both tight and consistent. Angle milling is out for me because of the setup time for each edge ( ''I shoulda got the CNC"). I had considered tapered end mills but I'm not sure the angle is the best solution anyways because without a distinct step I think it might still pull out.
I think the easiest solution for me is to use a slightly larger end mill, maybe 0.187" and use the same coordinates I used for the 0.093 and cut a 'rabbet' around each switch hole. The Cherry holes would be simpler. Because of the square hole and the tab being centered on the switch sides, you could just plunge a centered 0.625 end mill to the proper depth and voila, instant tab pocket.


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #65 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 19:08:46 »
If you have a 1/16" plate, I think Cherry switches will clip in as is.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 17 June 2014, 20:34:38 »
I thought I'd get a few pictures out of the first 5 completed cap types.
68291-0
On the right half, I staggered the columns to their approximate position. Because of the rather aggressive stepping of the different rows I chose not to have as aggressive of a column stagger as I had originally designed. The taller rows made it clumsy to move fingers across columns if there was too much of a column stagger because of the height difference.

In the background you can see a bag full of dud caps. I probably culled about 50% of the caps I cast. As I made more I figured out some of the reasons some failed and by the end I was batting about .900. Because the resin was so fast to set, I had to learn how much time I had to stir so that it was well mixed but still quick enough to have a good flow on the pour.

I may come back and cast a few more for spares and to replace some of the more marginal caps.


Another view. You can see the different sheen on a few of the caps. I think I put too much mold release on them and it affected the finish.  The aluminum masters are in a row in front
68293-1

There are some noticeable flaws in the bottom row caps. For some reason, if the master and the mold is flawed, the castings don't get any better no matter how many caps you make with it.

If I have time I'll fix the master and remold it.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:32:34 »
Damn, those look pretty awesome. I really did not expect them to turn out so nice... I may have to look into this.

What kind of resin did you use, and what kind of material to make the molds? I found a couple resin mold guides on here, was there a thread whose advise you followed most closely?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:26:25 »
I found this site to be most helpful.  It has a wealth of info, not just on mold making and casting but machining and other related fields. He recommends platinum cure silicones and is especially fond of QM262. I used that and also QM245 but I found it to be a little too flexible and not as durable. I have no experience with anything else so I have nothing to compare it with. I did find that degassing it in a vacuum chamber was almost essential to prevent bubble from forming in spite their claiming it not necessary. Platinum cure silicones are also sensitive to sulfur and some other things found in modeling clay. I used sulfur free clay but still had a problem with the silicone not fully curing where it contacted the clay. Not an inexorable problem, a scrubbing away of the gummy, semi-cured area and all was well. The condensation cure silicones may be less trouble but their other properties didn't seem as suitable for making caps.

For the urethane resin, I found this site on ebay.  I tried a couple of their resins and settled on their Color Pro line. It allowed better color choices because it is a somewhat clear base for tinting.

I also watched many youtube videos and some were helpful.

I have little to compare my results with having not tried many options. I rate my casting effort as acceptable. Nothing to boast about but acceptable for my application. I hope they hold up in use. They feel pretty much like a commercial keycap but I suspect they would be more easily damaged.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 June 2014, 08:03:13 by kurplop »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:15:47 »
Note, you attached Macintosh 'webloc' bookmark files, rather than actually pasting the links. Here they are as regular hyperlinks:
Guerrilla guide http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/
Specialty Resin & Chemical LLC http://www.specialtyresin.com/castingresins.html

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #70 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:17:03 »
At some point, I’m curious to try directly CNC cutting keycaps out of wood. I think the Shopbot at TechShop might be accurate and precise enough to do it, given sufficiently tiny drill bits.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:37:29 »
By the way, those keycaps look awesome!

Offline Oobly

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #72 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 04:34:48 »
Fantastic work, kurplop!

The caps look excellent. I am having a great time reading through the Guerrilla guide, some VERY useful info there. Also, you make a good case for the existence of Caps Lock.  ;)

Still slowly working on my mill. So far I've bought an X-Axis ballscrew, nut and bearings and a pair of rails with blocks. Next step is making a stable bench for it. Going to learn gas welding for that  :D

The new layout looks very good, too. This should be quite a board when completed.

I have experimented a little with bending acrylic and with the right tools (strip heater and bending jig) it's pretty easy to get a good bend. I've seen someone use a thin hair straightening iron for smaller sized pieces, too. I want to use bent acrylic for my next ergo prototype as a plate and case, all-in-one solution. Ideally I'd set up bending jigs with built-in strip heaters (made from nichrome wire), but have to finalise some dimensions before trying that. So far, my attempts with a heat gun on 3mm thick acrylic have had mixed results. I want to use 5mm thick stuff, but the thicker you go, the harder it is to get good bends.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #73 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 04:59:47 »
Oobly: Have you considered layered 1.5mm-ish acrylic? If you figure out what the cutout shape needs to be for each layer in a switch, then you should be able to put different keys higher or lower by a layer or two. If you can laser cut the acrylic, I think this is both easier to do (especially easier to do repeatably) and gives potentially a better result.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 07:53:44 »
Note, you attached Macintosh 'webloc' bookmark files, rather than actually pasting the links. Here they are as regular hyperlinks:
Guerrilla guide http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/
Specialty Resin & Chemical LLC http://www.specialtyresin.com/castingresins.html
Thanks for covering my blunder.
At some point, I’m curious to try directly CNC cutting keycaps out of wood. I think the Shopbot at TechShop might be accurate and precise enough to do it, given sufficiently tiny drill bits.
Be careful about your wood choice. You might want to orient the wood with the end grain facing up for stronger stems also. I gave up on my attempt because of the repeatability factor on a manual mill.

Also, you make a good case for the existence of Caps Lock.  ;)

So many people have expressed such irrational loathing for the Caps Lock key that for its protection I am considering not putting a legend on it. Similar to a witness protection plan. ;)

I have experimented a little with bending acrylic and with the right tools (strip heater and bending jig) it's pretty easy to get a good bend. I've seen someone use a thin hair straightening iron for smaller sized pieces, too. I want to use bent acrylic for my next ergo prototype as a plate and case, all-in-one solution. Ideally I'd set up bending jigs with built-in strip heaters (made from nichrome wire), but have to finalise some dimensions before trying that. So far, my attempts with a heat gun on 3mm thick acrylic have had mixed results. I want to use 5mm thick stuff, but the thicker you go, the harder it is to get good bends.

I wonder, if the entire layer was first preheated in an oven to just under bending temperature before strip heating, would that help the bending? Of course it may turn the whole thing to mush. Another possibility might be to kerf out about a third of the thickness at the bend and apply the strip heater to the opposite side. On a 5mm sheet it should still be pretty strong, although it would become the weakest link.


It's great to have you guys out there to offer words of encouragement and helpful suggestions. Thanks. 

We Ergomaniacs are a rare breed and need to stick together!


Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #75 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 09:09:35 »
What did you do for workholding when you machined your masters? Tabs that you sanded off after? Workholding is the hardest part for me when it comes to machining small pieces.
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 13:15:15 »
I used a 6" mill  vice and gang milled the bottoms and sides from a 1/2" x 0.72 x 6" piece of aluminum. That allowed me to do all but the top side in one large piece. I flipped the stock over and Tilted the head to make my bevels with it still in one unit. I made a deeper cut between caps to separate them and then angled the individual caps for the concave top cut. I angled the head to about 12 degrees and used a 3/4 end mill to cut the profile.

The last milling step was the trickiest because the vise had only the thin cap walls to grip and I did distort one cap slightly by crushing it in the vise.

I finished up with some sanding and sandblasting to even out the finish. I was hoping for a more textured finish but at least it's matte and fairly consistent.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 14:33:51 »
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.
Note, if we are willing to buy 100 keycaps of the same color, then it’s $1/cap for 1.5x1 alps caps (PBT, DSA profile) from them (though unfortunately, getting through their manufacturing queue takes 5 weeks). Price drops further as you increase numbers from there.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 14:52:26 »
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.
Note, if we are willing to buy 100 keycaps of the same color, then it’s $1/cap for 1.5x1 alps caps (PBT, DSA profile) from them (though unfortunately, getting through their manufacturing queue takes 5 weeks). Price drops further as you increase numbers from there.

Oh, that's right. Your keys have parallel walls so you can grip them in the vise and do the top. I'll need to make a fixture or special jaws to grip them with angled sides, probably with a negative inside to keep from crushing it. Thanks for your explanation, pretty impressive accomplishment on a manual mill. I wouldn't have even attempted it on my old harbor freight model.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 23:16:23 »
Hopefully I can finish up the thumb key masters tomorrow and have them cast by the end of the week.

68389-0

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 19 June 2014, 12:21:10 »
Cutting arcs on your manual mill, now you're just showing off :)  Great work.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #81 on: Thu, 26 June 2014, 20:14:01 »
I'm finishing up the 'bodywork' on my keyboard and beginning the painting. I couldn't resist taking a few pictures.69122-0
69124-1
69126-2
I can't wait to have you try it out at Keycon 2014.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #82 on: Thu, 26 June 2014, 20:57:18 »
That’s looking amazing!

Offline kittykatmax

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #83 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 11:46:52 »
One of the biggest obstacles in making a non standard spaced keyboard is what to do about the smaller caps. I was experimenting with making keycaps out of aluminum and was pretty happy with how it came out. I don't know if I will make them all out of aluminum or just make the 6 different profiles I need and then cast the rest in urethane.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

I left a brushed finish on the tops and polished the sides. The caps are standard width but 0.1" shorter front to back and shorter (height) to minimize overall size for portability.

OMG I want some.  Very sexy!
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline kittykatmax

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #84 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 11:55:44 »
I'm finishing up the 'bodywork' on my keyboard and beginning the painting. I couldn't resist taking a few pictures. (Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I can't wait to have you try it out at Keycon 2014.

All I can say is WOW!  Amazing work, as always. :)
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #85 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 17:04:49 »
I had to put things together to see how it fit before final painting. This is pretty much how it will look finished, less the dust, etc. As you can see, I built a tablet holder into it.
69271-0

It may be 7x taller than an apple wireless but it is only 1 inch wider.
69275-1

Soooo, whatcha got under the hood?  The hinge securing the back is my only concession to gimmickry on this project. It should prove to be handy but a couple of screws would have been simpler.  The major components are in place now for some simple wiring. Hah!
69277-2

Most of it fit together just right but you can see I need to trim around the mini keys and one of the large radial keys.  The only thing left with the caps is to finish contouring the 2 large thumb keycaps, make molds and cast them in urethane.
69279-3

As you can see, I have limited knowledge of electronics. My method of integrating the various components is to install the whole thing and trim out the things I think I won't need. Not the cleanest way of doing things but hopefully , it will work.



« Last Edit: Fri, 27 June 2014, 17:08:46 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #86 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 19:08:22 »
Pretty damn cool.

Which of the radial buttons is your natural rest point for the thumb? Bottom row, second closest to the pointer finger?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 20:49:56 »
My thumb naturally seems to end up centered on the wider radial button. I have found that only the lowest radial key involves any kind of a stretch at all. On days when my arthritis is especially bad I wouldn't want to use it often but most days even it is comfortable to reach.

I have had several people try it out. Keep in mind that none of these people are ergo folks but they all tend to say the same thing. They say it's really cool but that they thought it felt awkward to them. I am a little surprised given that it feels so natural to me. I think the layout is so different that it is just disorienting.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 20:59:49 »
That's to be expected if they're not used to unstaggered columns. I have a feeling that board would be a vast improvement over what they currently are using for anyone who doesn't have a custom built ergo board given enough time to get used to it.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 21:34:53 »
I have a feeling that board would be a vast improvement over what they currently are using for anyone who doesn't have a custom built ergo board given enough time to get used to it.

I agree with several caveats however. 

First, I'm surprised how few people actually touch type.  I find most people I encounter are  2 finger 3 finger 4, 5 and occasionally 6 finger users. When I call them peckers I get an unfavorable response. I wouldn't recommend it! I question whether any ergo board would help them.

Second, I realize my board is designed by and for me. Things like the proper position and radius of the arc are critical for maximum benefit. Even though, based on how x-large gloves barely fit me, my hands aren't small, I have a large palm and relatively short fingers. This makes my ideal radius smaller than many people my size. For a radial design to be broadly accepted, I think it would be necessary to offer several sizes or somehow make the unit adjustable.

Last, and you said it. It takes time to learn anything new and if people aren't convinced in the designs merit they simply won't give it its due.  Even if they are convinced, many still won't.

Offline obra

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 05 July 2014, 15:15:33 »
That jibes with our experience at keyboardio. But give them a couple days to get used to it and it does make sense.

Offline TheO-RingGuys

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #91 on: Sun, 06 July 2014, 01:34:41 »
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.

I think that my hands are probably average size for an adult man. When I place my fingers tight together they fall about a third of a key short of home position spacing. That makes the current width of key spacing great for me and likely adequate for all but the biggest paw; I wouldn't want to mess with that.  My interest is in the vertical spacing.

The typical fingertip is wider than it is thick (nail to pad). That makes  me question the need for an unnecessarily tall (front to back) cap.

Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.

One thing I have learned in my two year quest for the perfect ergonomic set up is that our needs are not the same; what works for one may not help another. Because of that I'm curious, do you think you would benefit by having tighter columns? Besides lack of keycap availability in that size, what are the downsides of a closer vertical spacing?

I was unaware that keyboards actually came with different key spacings. What are some examples of smaller spaced vs standard?

Offline davkol

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #92 on: Sun, 06 July 2014, 05:20:58 »
μTRON, Benq DeskSaver

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #93 on: Sun, 06 July 2014, 06:32:38 »
Lots of laptops have smaller-than-standard keys. Often it’s really annoying to type on those. Apple laptop keyboards have keys of standard width but slightly reduced depth (i.e. the rows are closer together), which isn’t really a problem (helps them fit a bigger trackpad).

I think with a column-staggered keyboard, the reduced depth is a positive change (even down to 75–80% of normal maybe), as long as there is still sufficient horizontal separation; with a row-staggered keyboard though, I think reduced size would lead to more errors. (For instance, when briefly trying the μTRON I found that the keys were a bit too small for my comfort: it was easy for me to unintentionally hit the corners between keys)

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 16:22:49 »
Any updates on the keyboard? Vids of you hitting 90 WPM on advanced typing tests? :)

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 00:23:58 »
Sorry I haven't updated in a while.  I've been very busy trying to finish the keyboard for Keycon and also starting a new project at work. I will try to get something up this weekend.

I will say that I'm very happy with most of the features on the PortaPlop but I ended up rushing several steps and it shows in the end product. I plan on writing up an exhaustive report on what worked, what didn't,  what I had to do several times to make work, what I learned and what I still have to do.  It does work but I need to reconfigure the layout.   

Offline krazyderek

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #96 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 21:53:01 »
I suppose that it is positive that the upcoming matias ergo pro features 25 regular width, decreased height keycaps. They are arrows, copy, paste, home, end, function keys and so on. Hopefully someone will dare to make alphanumerical keycaps in the same dimensions soon.
http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/2.jpg

Old thread, but for reference purposes, i though i would add that the ergo pro looks like it's using regular switches for the close vertical spacing keys like the copy paste and, arrows, and page up / down cluster. Here's a shot that shows the same switches just placed much closer together, and of course using smaller caps.
102928-0


Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.

There are two articles titled "The effect of keyboard key spacing on typing speed, error, usability, and biomechanics" Parts 1 & 2 which noted that 19-17mm key spacing was relatively the same, going under 17mm i think yielded some negative results, but the summary doesn't talk about long term effects, so i read it as, "that's how much you could change it without someone having to adapt to a new keyboard", and maybe the long term benefits would be worth it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23829030
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25029899
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #97 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 23:08:09 »

Old thread, but for reference purposes, i though i would add that the ergo pro looks like it's using regular switches for the close vertical spacing keys like the copy paste and, arrows, and page up / down cluster. Here's a shot that shows the same switches just placed much closer together, and of course using smaller caps.
(Attachment Link)

The smaller caps look like they won't fit around the Matias switches. Do they, or are the cap sides shallow and they stop before hitting the switch?  Could someone take a picture of the underside of the smaller caps for reference?


Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.

There are two articles titled "The effect of keyboard key spacing on typing speed, error, usability, and biomechanics" Parts 1 & 2 which noted that 19-17mm key spacing was relatively the same, going under 17mm i think yielded some negative results, but the summary doesn't talk about long term effects, so i read it as, "that's how much you could change it without someone having to adapt to a new keyboard", and maybe the long term benefits would be worth it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23829030
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25029899

Thanks for posting the 2 articles. While their results were interesting, there were 2 things that may be either misleading or incomplete.

     -It is important to note that the tests were conducted with users with large hands so the results should be proportionally scaled down for average or small hands.

     -The speed and accuracy tests were conducted after a fairly limited amount of time. More practice would likely improve both.

The results also tended to support the idea that the vertical spacing could be reduced more than the horizontal before experiencing adverse affects.

The articles led me to their other tests on keyboard ergonomics that are also worth checking out.

Thanks again for sharing and welcome to Geekhack.

 
 

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #98 on: Sun, 07 June 2015, 01:11:00 »
Those papers are also about standard QWERTY keyboard layout, and may be totally inapplicable to a split column-staggered keyboard.

Offline krazyderek

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #99 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 08:07:46 »

The smaller caps look like they won't fit around the Matias switches. Do they, or are the cap sides shallow and they stop before hitting the switch?  Could someone take a picture of the underside of the smaller caps for reference?


Key caps are indeed shallow, here are a couple of shots, sorry i didn't have any callipers to measure with

103419-0103421-1103423-2103425-3103427-4103429-5103417-6
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 June 2015, 08:11:09 by krazyderek »
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #100 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 08:14:20 »
Thanks for the pictures. They support my assumption that they would have to lay above the switches.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 16 June 2015, 15:42:09 »
I used a 6" mill  vice and gang milled the bottoms and sides from a 1/2" x 0.72 x 6" piece of aluminum. That allowed me to do all but the top side in one large piece. I flipped the stock over and Tilted the head to make my bevels with it still in one unit. I made a deeper cut between caps to separate them and then angled the individual caps for the concave top cut. I angled the head to about 12 degrees and used a 3/4 end mill to cut the profile.

The last milling step was the trickiest because the vise had only the thin cap walls to grip and I did distort one cap slightly by crushing it in the vise.

I finished up with some sanding and sandblasting to even out the finish. I was hoping for a more textured finish but at least it's matte and fairly consistent.

Use a torque wrench to close the vise next time ;) identical results, every time!