Author Topic: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO  (Read 7651 times)

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Offline jamadagni

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Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 22:58:51 »
Hello. I'm new to this site. Basically I came here looking for info/advice on ergonomic keyboards.

I notice that ErgoDox and KeyboardIO keyboards don't have dedicated F (function) keys. Since we are used to lots of UI shortcuts involving these keys I am totally not sure how come the designed of these keyboards chose to skip them. As noted here having to mimic F by a sequence doesn't exactly cut it.

Re ErgoDox there is absolutely no detail about this, probably since it is only intended to be used by power modders or such, but if it's going to reach regular users, at least there should be some explanation.

On the KeyboardIO, I notice that it has two big keys labeled "Function" near what seems to be the palm location, but I couldn't find any documentation on their website regarding their keyboard layout at all so not sure about how this intends to alleviate the situation.

I'd like to hear any comments and especially explanations. Thanks.

Offline user 18

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 23:28:45 »
For the KeyboardIO board, you're better off asking the manufacturer than the community in general.

I don't have an ergodox, but here are my thoughts:

1) A lot of users here use 60% (or smaller!) keyboards, which don't have dedicated function keys. Those users won't see a difference in terms of fn keys compared to the boards they're used to anyway.
2) It is possible to create the firmware using a function lock key, or using keys to cycle between layers, rather than needing to hold function to hit the key. It is also possible to have the function key activated by tap -- tap fn, then tap the key you want modified.
3) The ergodox doesn't really have a 'standard' layout associated with it. Everyone gets to make their own layout, that's part of the magic of the board. If there are particular keys you really want accessible, you can make that happen, you just need to find a layout that works for you.
4) I would argue that fn+numrow is an excellent alternative to dedicated function keys, which, if added in an additional row, would require significant hand movement to reach. Map fn to a thumb key, and you're golden. Situations where you only have one free finger shouldn't be a significant portion of your keyboarding time anyway, and a small tradeoff in convenience those times may or may not be worth it to you for the rest of the time you're using the keyboard. Any time there's reduction in number of keys, either in the name of portability, ergonomics or something else, the user needs to determine if it's worthwhile to them to lose those keys for the other advantages.

Personally, for functions I don't use very often (number pad, Greek letters, gaming pad), I'm planning on making up some purpose-built matrix pads that I can pull out when I need them. Makes things less cumbersome than trying to cram all the functions for all the eventualities into a single board, after all.
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Offline nomaded

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 01:03:57 »
4) I would argue that fn+numrow is an excellent alternative to dedicated function keys, which, if added in an additional row, would require significant hand movement to reach. Map fn to a thumb key, and you're golden. Situations where you only have one free finger shouldn't be a significant portion of your keyboarding time anyway, and a small tradeoff in convenience those times may or may not be worth it to you for the rest of the time you're using the keyboard. Any time there's reduction in number of keys, either in the name of portability, ergonomics or something else, the user needs to determine if it's worthwhile to them to lose those keys for the other advantages.

This is how I hit the function keys, for the few times I need to use them.
Dvorak
ErgoDox fullhand (MX Clears) w/Nuclear Green Data SA || Infinity ErgoDox (Zealios 78g tactile) w/SA Retro || Atreus62 (MX Clears) w/Chocolatier || TECK 209 (MX Browns) || TouchStream ST
Kensington Slimblade Trackball || Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman || Apple Magic Trackpad
Current Dvorak-based ErgoDox layout || Current Dvorak-based TECK layout

Offline Oobly

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 08:01:28 »
4) I would argue that fn+numrow is an excellent alternative to dedicated function keys, which, if added in an additional row, would require significant hand movement to reach. Map fn to a thumb key, and you're golden. Situations where you only have one free finger shouldn't be a significant portion of your keyboarding time anyway, and a small tradeoff in convenience those times may or may not be worth it to you for the rest of the time you're using the keyboard. Any time there's reduction in number of keys, either in the name of portability, ergonomics or something else, the user needs to determine if it's worthwhile to them to lose those keys for the other advantages.

This is how I hit the function keys, for the few times I need to use them.

+1. I'm actually happy even on a 40%, with the numbers on a Fn layer. Thumb keys FTW. I like to have my arrows on the default layer, though, since I do a lot of text editing. This layout's a bit outdated as I've shifted some things around, but it gives an idea of what works for me: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721.msg1078758#msg1078758
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Offline davkol

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 15:58:15 »
Since we are used to lots of UI shortcuts involving these keys I am totally not sure how come the designed of these keyboards chose to skip them.
Eh, really? I haven't used any CUA/DOS apps (Norton Commander and Turbo Pascal come to mind) for ages, and I usually carry a typematrix (w/ 75% layout, basic Colemak implementation in firmware and nearly silent keys) to labs, where I need Visual Studio.

Everything else…
  • You can use Ctrl-R instead of F5, Ctrl-L instead of F6, Ctrl-W instead of Alt-F4, and so on.
  • I've mostly remapped my window management bindings to use simple chords with Super (Win).
  • Neither Emacs, nor vi-like controls require the F-row. I use Vimperator, bash or GNU Emacs most of the time.
  • As mentioned by others, there' are lots of possible layer implementations.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 17:33:52 »
I notice that ErgoDox and KeyboardIO keyboards don't have dedicated F (function) keys. Since we are used to lots of UI shortcuts involving these keys I am totally not sure how come the designed of these keyboards chose to skip them. As noted here having to mimic F by a sequence doesn't exactly cut it.
Xah Lee is a smart guy, but I think he’s wrong here.

His preference is to have separate keys for every possible function, as many as possible. He has many other pages about that so I won’t try to detail his arguments, e.g. http://xahlee.info/comp/keyboard_shortcut_design.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_function_keys.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_add_extra_function_keys.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_numpad_as_function_keys.html

There’s a certain theoretical attractiveness to that idea, and when it comes to e.g. a control panel for a spaceship or nuclear power plant, or maybe even a grocery store cash register, I’m all on board: give every function its own labeled button. Many buttons will only need to be pressed rarely, so reaching the arm awkwardly, or even standing up and leaning to reach a key is totally fine.

A computer is a general-purpose device though, not a single-purpose device. If you have keys on a standard keyboard for some type of machine, software will be written to use those keys. If you have a mouse, software will require switching between mouse and keyboard. If you have a number pad or a navigation key section or F keys, software will throw those keys into its shortcut mix. If computer keyboards came with 50 F keys, some piece of software would assign all 50 to various functions. The software designers responsible won’t be considering the efficiency costs of pulling someone out of flow for a minute to press one of those keys or move the mouse. They won’t be considering whether a particular shortcut is efficient or ergonomically friendly. More generally, they won’t consider whether a particular shortcut conflicts with other shortcuts on the system.

What we have ended up evolving is an ad-hoc and very brittle layout. (Where by “we” I mean about 40% Remington in the 19th century, 40% IBM, 5% Apple, and 15% DEC/Microsoft/everyone else) Not only is it disorganized and confusing, it also is uncomfortable, inefficient, and causes severe injuries for large numbers of people. Many of the keys are ripped out of their original context and are totally nonsensical for modern systems. This is what “regular users” get stuck with: an evolved pile of poop which got incrementally worse up through 1985 and then was frozen in place because it was treated as a commodity and no one saw enough incentive to fix it.

If you need to stick with the standard layout, go for it, that’s totally fine. It takes less effort to use something everyone is already used to, for sure. If you want something that is mostly standard but a bit more comfortable, I highly recommend Matias’s ErgoPro keyboard.

Keyboards like the keyboard.io are making a stand though. Their idea is: let’s get rid of the unreachable keys, let’s give customers direct control over the keyboard layout, in a much more convenient and powerful way than they had via existing system tools. If you want an F key, you should put it on a layer. If you need a specific shortcut for some piece of software that causes you to make some uncomfortable contortion, you should remap it to an easier-to-press shortcut. No more twisting your hand into a pretzel, no more moving your hand to a separate part of the keyboard and back for a routine operation, and no more pulling your hand of the home row to press the escape or delete keys, losing seconds each time.

This is a vision which takes customer effort and learning. It’s decidedly not for everyone. If it’s not your cup of tea, that’s entirely fine, use something closer to the standard layout. Or if you want something that looks like an Ergodox plus function keys, build it yourself. :-)
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 June 2015, 17:44:05 by jacobolus »

Offline vvp

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 18:41:23 »
I have no problem with F-keys in the number row in a separate layer.
If a keyboard of your choice has thumb clusters just put all the modifiers on the thumb clusters and it will be easy to even use F-keys in a separate layer combined with additional modifiers.

I think it is easier to press one more modifier (Fn-key) than to move my hand from home row to reach the right F-key.

Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 16 June 2015, 15:12:43 »
It depends on what you do and what programs you run. I use F keys almost never. At best I use F12 because it's the 'save as' button in Paintshop Pro, but since I use photoshop more these days I don't even use that much anymore.

Actually, I have them on a FN layer as the 107-key 4704 Model F doesn't actually have a function row.

I can't recall actually using them since I got this board in February.

The more egregious issue for me with ergo boards is that most of them eliminate what I consider to be a vital cluster of keys. No, not the nav cluster, the number pad. I use it all the time. Number entry, alt codes, key bindings in games, etc. It's probably the one sensibly designed thing on a standard keyboard. The problem with separate ones is that many don't even send the right scancodes, can't be used for alt codes, and between the bezel on the board and the bezel on the numberpad you end up with more space taken up.

Though I think my ideal setup, if it could be pulled off, is a split ergo with a mouse in the center and a(preferably integrated, but otherwise small bezel with an alt key) number pad on the right where it normally goes.
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Offline vvp

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Re: Absence of Function keys on ErgoDox and KeyboardIO
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 16 June 2015, 16:59:02 »
I have it in a keypad layer. Though I hardly ever use it except Keypad+ and Keypad- as zoomIn/zoomOut. Good enough with a keypad shift key. I like compose key for typing strange characters.