Author Topic: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?  (Read 42120 times)

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #50 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:50:09 »
I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage.
I highly recommend you try to find an Apple M0115 or M0116 on ebay to salvage orange Alps switches from, and then swap in Matias clicky switch click leaves. The resulting franken-switch is very nice, a bit lighter weight than the Matias switch, a bit smoother, and noticeably less wobbly, and old Apple keyboards are relatively easy to find cheap.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 June 2014, 07:52:05 by jacobolus »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #51 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:27:18 »
One change I haven't noted was my abandoning milling out the 1" aluminum block to make the plates. I originally began working on a heavier piece to be able to design a plate that would allow the thumb cluster switches to interlock with the alpha plane switches. A straight bend in the plate would have the bend crossing over some of the switch holes which wouldn't work. By milling from a thicker piece I could make a more complex plane shift to allow for the interlocking switches. After 2 redesigns I realized I could achieve the same result by breaking(bending) a 1/8" plate and milling most of the top side of the thumb plane and the bottom side of the alpha plane to 1/16".  This provides an area at the intersection that will flatly seat the laced switches. It also saves both milling time and aluminum!
* ergoploped out-Detail 2 break likes.pdf (31.7 kB - downloaded 253 times.)
The picture shows red lines indicating where I bent the plate at four places. The thumb cluster bend problem is obvious had I just used a 1/16" plate. I thought it was critically important to keep the switches as close as possible at the transition to allow the greatest accessability  to the thumb keys.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #52 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:38:37 »
I said the ducky green alps were an easy choice, but I should have said that alps in general were an easy choice. It was difficult to decide between the matias clicky and the ducky green alps... so much so that I ordered 90 matias, then changed my mind and ordered a ducky keyboard to salvage.
I highly recommend you try to find an Apple M0115 or M0116 on ebay to salvage orange Alps switches from, and then swap in Matias clicky switch click leaves. The resulting franken-switch is very nice, a bit lighter weight than the Matias switch, a bit smoother, and noticeably less wobbly, and old Apple keyboards are relatively easy to find cheap.

Dammit, now I wish I had done that before getting so far into this. You wouldn't happen to know if those old apple keyboard's have uniform keycaps would you? The alps MBR-101 I got had different profiles on each row.

How are you bending the aluminum? Do you have a tool for that or just clamping it on an edge and doing it by hand?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #53 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 08:47:21 »
I have a 48" brake.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #54 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 09:44:18 »
Nice. I'm still trying to decide between a machined solution or an acrylic bend to set my thumb cluster at a different angle. What's the angle of the bend you found works best there? (the amount of bend applied via your brake, not the offset angle which I can see is in the 40 to 45 degree area). It's difficult to tell what it is on my kinesis due to the curvature, anywhere from 10 to 20 I'd guess.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #55 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 10:20:45 »
I was afraid you'd ask that. I'm not sure. I originally bent the cluster/alpha bend at around 17degrees but when I realized it created a bit too much of a negative tilt back I flattened it about 5  to 10 degrees then added a 5 to 10 degree bends close to the buttons. That really gave it a nice feel but it also complicated the build of the wood body that encloses it. 

When I take it apart for the final painting I'll get accurate measurements. The keyboard is a bit high at 3" not including the trackball but is quite compact in the other dimensions. The tenting does provide room for the components to fit directly under the keys so it minimizes the necessary footprint.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #56 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 10:45:18 »
Interesting. So your thumb cluster is a bit convex then if I'm understanding that right.

The height may or may not be an issue depending on your desk/seat arrangement. The way I have my split kinesis advantage tented right now, the top of the thumb cluster buttons is near 3" as well.

I'm afraid the thumb cluster is just going to take a ton of experimentation for me. Perhaps the ideal keyboard would have an almost 90 degree bend, so the thumb would move more like your other fingers when pressing keys, but after a lifetime of learning to actuate buttons with the side of the thumb, that motion feels uncoordinated by comparison, regardless of it's a more theoretically ergonomic position.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #57 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 16:07:43 »
I've made peace with the lateral thumb motion. I don't think it is much of an issue.  I think I angled the thumb cluster to keep the trackball and its buttons from being too high as much as to improve the thumb motion. I'm sure some would disagree with that thinking.
A much bigger issue for me has been the outside columns of keys which my pinkies don't get along with well. If you compare the last drawing with the one made last summer you'll notice I solved the problem by eliminating them. Good riddance!

Interesting. So your thumb cluster is a bit convex then if I'm understanding that right.

The actual bends are quite sharp and the planes are all flat, which I guess sounds redundant since all planes are flat.  To better describe the various planes, the 3 mouse buttons are dead level, the first angle puts the thumb clusters falling off to the sides (3:00 and 9:00) at roughly 19 degrees and the alpha planes are at 22 degrees from level, falling off towards 2:00 and 10:00. As you can see, my 5-10 degree earlier guess was way off on the center bends. When I post pictures it will all make sense..... I hope.

The overall height feels fine . I think it's because the outside keys are pretty low. I will be using this one in my lap and/or on a lowered tray so it won't be an issue anyway.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 17:51:33 »
Wow you weren't kidding. That second pinky column has been eradicated -- I did not notice that. There are a few keys there that I actually prefer over the pointer finger's third column, and I only use two of them with my pinky anyhow. This will disgust you though: I'm still using shift on that row. In my quest for WPM I've found it hard to put the shift key anywhere else and still be able to type with the same speed. I know for a fact that some of my worst pain has come from the strain of repetitive use of the left shift... back when shift-looting was still a necessary evil in WoW...ugh.







Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 20:08:25 »
I admit that I  shift with my left pinky also. I think it's because I need the four useable thumb keys on my ErgoDox for other things. When I got a Truly Ergonomics board I got use to the shifts being up one row which I prefer to its standard position. That will definitely change with the new keyboard since the outside columns have been eliminated. I think I will assign the upper right outside thumb key for shift and its twin on the other side for L1. From there I can easily and comfortably reach every key on the board with another finger. The lowest radial keys will be for L1 lock and Caps lock because they require a slight reach. I considered not having the fourth radial key but thought it would work great for the infrequently needed keys and the mouse buttons needed the keyboard depth anyways.

By the way are those monitors all yours?

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #60 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 21:34:56 »
Sounds good, but what is this Caps Lock key you speak of and does it really need a place on your keyboard?

Yeah the monitors are mine, though I don't really have a use for them atm as there's nothing fun to multibox. You can click the sig for my troll site. Wouldn't bother reading any of it, but there are some pretty pictures.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #61 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 22:38:37 »
Sounds good, but what is this Caps Lock key you speak of and does it really need a place on your keyboard?

OF COURSE IT DOES!!!!!
What is with this intolerable hatred directed at the humble Caps Lock key? I actually use it all the time for my CAD annotations on my architectural drawings.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 15 June 2014, 22:50:09 »
Well if you have the room for it then :)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 16:29:53 »
My plate thickness is currently just over 1/16" so the tabs don't quite lock. I don't know how thin I can mill the 6061 aluminum before it loses the rigidity necessary to prevent flexing. It has been a blessing in disguise during it's development because it has made it easier to remove the switches for testing and adjustments.  I may just make a slight rabbit(sorry for the woodworking term) on each edge where the tabs would engage. Any suggestions are welcome.
By “rabbit” do you mean “rabbet”? Anyway, if you can mill at an angle, I also think a beveled edge would work (i.e. a larger hole at the bottom edge than the top edge). Or you can just not worry about potentially snapping the little clips off. Or you can make the hole very tight to the switch size [hoping that the tolerances are pretty good from switch to switch], but include some kind of little cut-out notch for the plastic tabs to rest in.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 18:35:15 »
Thanks for catching my spelling error. It wasn't just an oversight, I just assumed it was spelled that way. I have probably spoken that word thousands of times and seen it in print as many. Isn't it funny how we see what we think is there more often than we probably imagine.  Anyways, yes I meant rabbet, the wood edge detail, not rabbit, our furry carrot loving friend.

The holes I cut are both tight and consistent. Angle milling is out for me because of the setup time for each edge ( ''I shoulda got the CNC"). I had considered tapered end mills but I'm not sure the angle is the best solution anyways because without a distinct step I think it might still pull out.
I think the easiest solution for me is to use a slightly larger end mill, maybe 0.187" and use the same coordinates I used for the 0.093 and cut a 'rabbet' around each switch hole. The Cherry holes would be simpler. Because of the square hole and the tab being centered on the switch sides, you could just plunge a centered 0.625 end mill to the proper depth and voila, instant tab pocket.


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #65 on: Mon, 16 June 2014, 19:08:46 »
If you have a 1/16" plate, I think Cherry switches will clip in as is.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 17 June 2014, 20:34:38 »
I thought I'd get a few pictures out of the first 5 completed cap types.
68291-0
On the right half, I staggered the columns to their approximate position. Because of the rather aggressive stepping of the different rows I chose not to have as aggressive of a column stagger as I had originally designed. The taller rows made it clumsy to move fingers across columns if there was too much of a column stagger because of the height difference.

In the background you can see a bag full of dud caps. I probably culled about 50% of the caps I cast. As I made more I figured out some of the reasons some failed and by the end I was batting about .900. Because the resin was so fast to set, I had to learn how much time I had to stir so that it was well mixed but still quick enough to have a good flow on the pour.

I may come back and cast a few more for spares and to replace some of the more marginal caps.


Another view. You can see the different sheen on a few of the caps. I think I put too much mold release on them and it affected the finish.  The aluminum masters are in a row in front
68293-1

There are some noticeable flaws in the bottom row caps. For some reason, if the master and the mold is flawed, the castings don't get any better no matter how many caps you make with it.

If I have time I'll fix the master and remold it.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:32:34 »
Damn, those look pretty awesome. I really did not expect them to turn out so nice... I may have to look into this.

What kind of resin did you use, and what kind of material to make the molds? I found a couple resin mold guides on here, was there a thread whose advise you followed most closely?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:26:25 »
I found this site to be most helpful.  It has a wealth of info, not just on mold making and casting but machining and other related fields. He recommends platinum cure silicones and is especially fond of QM262. I used that and also QM245 but I found it to be a little too flexible and not as durable. I have no experience with anything else so I have nothing to compare it with. I did find that degassing it in a vacuum chamber was almost essential to prevent bubble from forming in spite their claiming it not necessary. Platinum cure silicones are also sensitive to sulfur and some other things found in modeling clay. I used sulfur free clay but still had a problem with the silicone not fully curing where it contacted the clay. Not an inexorable problem, a scrubbing away of the gummy, semi-cured area and all was well. The condensation cure silicones may be less trouble but their other properties didn't seem as suitable for making caps.

For the urethane resin, I found this site on ebay.  I tried a couple of their resins and settled on their Color Pro line. It allowed better color choices because it is a somewhat clear base for tinting.

I also watched many youtube videos and some were helpful.

I have little to compare my results with having not tried many options. I rate my casting effort as acceptable. Nothing to boast about but acceptable for my application. I hope they hold up in use. They feel pretty much like a commercial keycap but I suspect they would be more easily damaged.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 June 2014, 08:03:13 by kurplop »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:15:47 »
Note, you attached Macintosh 'webloc' bookmark files, rather than actually pasting the links. Here they are as regular hyperlinks:
Guerrilla guide http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/
Specialty Resin & Chemical LLC http://www.specialtyresin.com/castingresins.html

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #70 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:17:03 »
At some point, I’m curious to try directly CNC cutting keycaps out of wood. I think the Shopbot at TechShop might be accurate and precise enough to do it, given sufficiently tiny drill bits.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 02:37:29 »
By the way, those keycaps look awesome!

Offline Oobly

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #72 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 04:34:48 »
Fantastic work, kurplop!

The caps look excellent. I am having a great time reading through the Guerrilla guide, some VERY useful info there. Also, you make a good case for the existence of Caps Lock.  ;)

Still slowly working on my mill. So far I've bought an X-Axis ballscrew, nut and bearings and a pair of rails with blocks. Next step is making a stable bench for it. Going to learn gas welding for that  :D

The new layout looks very good, too. This should be quite a board when completed.

I have experimented a little with bending acrylic and with the right tools (strip heater and bending jig) it's pretty easy to get a good bend. I've seen someone use a thin hair straightening iron for smaller sized pieces, too. I want to use bent acrylic for my next ergo prototype as a plate and case, all-in-one solution. Ideally I'd set up bending jigs with built-in strip heaters (made from nichrome wire), but have to finalise some dimensions before trying that. So far, my attempts with a heat gun on 3mm thick acrylic have had mixed results. I want to use 5mm thick stuff, but the thicker you go, the harder it is to get good bends.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #73 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 04:59:47 »
Oobly: Have you considered layered 1.5mm-ish acrylic? If you figure out what the cutout shape needs to be for each layer in a switch, then you should be able to put different keys higher or lower by a layer or two. If you can laser cut the acrylic, I think this is both easier to do (especially easier to do repeatably) and gives potentially a better result.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 07:53:44 »
Note, you attached Macintosh 'webloc' bookmark files, rather than actually pasting the links. Here they are as regular hyperlinks:
Guerrilla guide http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/
Specialty Resin & Chemical LLC http://www.specialtyresin.com/castingresins.html
Thanks for covering my blunder.
At some point, I’m curious to try directly CNC cutting keycaps out of wood. I think the Shopbot at TechShop might be accurate and precise enough to do it, given sufficiently tiny drill bits.
Be careful about your wood choice. You might want to orient the wood with the end grain facing up for stronger stems also. I gave up on my attempt because of the repeatability factor on a manual mill.

Also, you make a good case for the existence of Caps Lock.  ;)

So many people have expressed such irrational loathing for the Caps Lock key that for its protection I am considering not putting a legend on it. Similar to a witness protection plan. ;)

I have experimented a little with bending acrylic and with the right tools (strip heater and bending jig) it's pretty easy to get a good bend. I've seen someone use a thin hair straightening iron for smaller sized pieces, too. I want to use bent acrylic for my next ergo prototype as a plate and case, all-in-one solution. Ideally I'd set up bending jigs with built-in strip heaters (made from nichrome wire), but have to finalise some dimensions before trying that. So far, my attempts with a heat gun on 3mm thick acrylic have had mixed results. I want to use 5mm thick stuff, but the thicker you go, the harder it is to get good bends.

I wonder, if the entire layer was first preheated in an oven to just under bending temperature before strip heating, would that help the bending? Of course it may turn the whole thing to mush. Another possibility might be to kerf out about a third of the thickness at the bend and apply the strip heater to the opposite side. On a 5mm sheet it should still be pretty strong, although it would become the weakest link.


It's great to have you guys out there to offer words of encouragement and helpful suggestions. Thanks. 

We Ergomaniacs are a rare breed and need to stick together!


Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #75 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 09:09:35 »
What did you do for workholding when you machined your masters? Tabs that you sanded off after? Workholding is the hardest part for me when it comes to machining small pieces.
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 13:15:15 »
I used a 6" mill  vice and gang milled the bottoms and sides from a 1/2" x 0.72 x 6" piece of aluminum. That allowed me to do all but the top side in one large piece. I flipped the stock over and Tilted the head to make my bevels with it still in one unit. I made a deeper cut between caps to separate them and then angled the individual caps for the concave top cut. I angled the head to about 12 degrees and used a 3/4 end mill to cut the profile.

The last milling step was the trickiest because the vise had only the thin cap walls to grip and I did distort one cap slightly by crushing it in the vise.

I finished up with some sanding and sandblasting to even out the finish. I was hoping for a more textured finish but at least it's matte and fairly consistent.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 14:33:51 »
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.
Note, if we are willing to buy 100 keycaps of the same color, then it’s $1/cap for 1.5x1 alps caps (PBT, DSA profile) from them (though unfortunately, getting through their manufacturing queue takes 5 weeks). Price drops further as you increase numbers from there.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 14:52:26 »
After getting some ridiculous quotes from keycapsdirect (over 5 dollars per key for the cheapest 1.5x's) I'm considering just machining some or all of the keys since harvesting the 1.xx keys of the profile I want results in no more than 2 per keyboard.
Note, if we are willing to buy 100 keycaps of the same color, then it’s $1/cap for 1.5x1 alps caps (PBT, DSA profile) from them (though unfortunately, getting through their manufacturing queue takes 5 weeks). Price drops further as you increase numbers from there.

Oh, that's right. Your keys have parallel walls so you can grip them in the vise and do the top. I'll need to make a fixture or special jaws to grip them with angled sides, probably with a negative inside to keep from crushing it. Thanks for your explanation, pretty impressive accomplishment on a manual mill. I wouldn't have even attempted it on my old harbor freight model.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 23:16:23 »
Hopefully I can finish up the thumb key masters tomorrow and have them cast by the end of the week.

68389-0

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 19 June 2014, 12:21:10 »
Cutting arcs on your manual mill, now you're just showing off :)  Great work.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #81 on: Thu, 26 June 2014, 20:14:01 »
I'm finishing up the 'bodywork' on my keyboard and beginning the painting. I couldn't resist taking a few pictures.69122-0
69124-1
69126-2
I can't wait to have you try it out at Keycon 2014.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #82 on: Thu, 26 June 2014, 20:57:18 »
That’s looking amazing!

Offline kittykatmax

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #83 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 11:46:52 »
One of the biggest obstacles in making a non standard spaced keyboard is what to do about the smaller caps. I was experimenting with making keycaps out of aluminum and was pretty happy with how it came out. I don't know if I will make them all out of aluminum or just make the 6 different profiles I need and then cast the rest in urethane.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

I left a brushed finish on the tops and polished the sides. The caps are standard width but 0.1" shorter front to back and shorter (height) to minimize overall size for portability.

OMG I want some.  Very sexy!
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Offline kittykatmax

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #84 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 11:55:44 »
I'm finishing up the 'bodywork' on my keyboard and beginning the painting. I couldn't resist taking a few pictures. (Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I can't wait to have you try it out at Keycon 2014.

All I can say is WOW!  Amazing work, as always. :)
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #85 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 17:04:49 »
I had to put things together to see how it fit before final painting. This is pretty much how it will look finished, less the dust, etc. As you can see, I built a tablet holder into it.
69271-0

It may be 7x taller than an apple wireless but it is only 1 inch wider.
69275-1

Soooo, whatcha got under the hood?  The hinge securing the back is my only concession to gimmickry on this project. It should prove to be handy but a couple of screws would have been simpler.  The major components are in place now for some simple wiring. Hah!
69277-2

Most of it fit together just right but you can see I need to trim around the mini keys and one of the large radial keys.  The only thing left with the caps is to finish contouring the 2 large thumb keycaps, make molds and cast them in urethane.
69279-3

As you can see, I have limited knowledge of electronics. My method of integrating the various components is to install the whole thing and trim out the things I think I won't need. Not the cleanest way of doing things but hopefully , it will work.



« Last Edit: Fri, 27 June 2014, 17:08:46 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #86 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 19:08:22 »
Pretty damn cool.

Which of the radial buttons is your natural rest point for the thumb? Bottom row, second closest to the pointer finger?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 20:49:56 »
My thumb naturally seems to end up centered on the wider radial button. I have found that only the lowest radial key involves any kind of a stretch at all. On days when my arthritis is especially bad I wouldn't want to use it often but most days even it is comfortable to reach.

I have had several people try it out. Keep in mind that none of these people are ergo folks but they all tend to say the same thing. They say it's really cool but that they thought it felt awkward to them. I am a little surprised given that it feels so natural to me. I think the layout is so different that it is just disorienting.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 20:59:49 »
That's to be expected if they're not used to unstaggered columns. I have a feeling that board would be a vast improvement over what they currently are using for anyone who doesn't have a custom built ergo board given enough time to get used to it.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 27 June 2014, 21:34:53 »
I have a feeling that board would be a vast improvement over what they currently are using for anyone who doesn't have a custom built ergo board given enough time to get used to it.

I agree with several caveats however. 

First, I'm surprised how few people actually touch type.  I find most people I encounter are  2 finger 3 finger 4, 5 and occasionally 6 finger users. When I call them peckers I get an unfavorable response. I wouldn't recommend it! I question whether any ergo board would help them.

Second, I realize my board is designed by and for me. Things like the proper position and radius of the arc are critical for maximum benefit. Even though, based on how x-large gloves barely fit me, my hands aren't small, I have a large palm and relatively short fingers. This makes my ideal radius smaller than many people my size. For a radial design to be broadly accepted, I think it would be necessary to offer several sizes or somehow make the unit adjustable.

Last, and you said it. It takes time to learn anything new and if people aren't convinced in the designs merit they simply won't give it its due.  Even if they are convinced, many still won't.

Offline obra

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 05 July 2014, 15:15:33 »
That jibes with our experience at keyboardio. But give them a couple days to get used to it and it does make sense.

Offline TheO-RingGuys

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #91 on: Sun, 06 July 2014, 01:34:41 »
I'm currently planning a new keyboard design and it occurred to me that the standard 3/4" key spacing may not be ideal. Too closely spaced might feel cramped but larger than necessary requires unnecessary reaching and moving from home position.

I think that my hands are probably average size for an adult man. When I place my fingers tight together they fall about a third of a key short of home position spacing. That makes the current width of key spacing great for me and likely adequate for all but the biggest paw; I wouldn't want to mess with that.  My interest is in the vertical spacing.

The typical fingertip is wider than it is thick (nail to pad). That makes  me question the need for an unnecessarily tall (front to back) cap.

Try this. Place your fingers in home position, then strike a key on the number row. Did your whole hand have to move or could you reach it just by moving that finger? Now reach 2 rows down. Would it be easier to reach if that row was a half a key closer? Shortening the spacing .15" could be done with Cherry switches and would be even easier with Alps style switches (of course standard keycaps wouldn't work), and that would bring the bottom and number row almost a half a key closer.

One thing I have learned in my two year quest for the perfect ergonomic set up is that our needs are not the same; what works for one may not help another. Because of that I'm curious, do you think you would benefit by having tighter columns? Besides lack of keycap availability in that size, what are the downsides of a closer vertical spacing?

I was unaware that keyboards actually came with different key spacings. What are some examples of smaller spaced vs standard?

Offline davkol

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #92 on: Sun, 06 July 2014, 05:20:58 »
μTRON, Benq DeskSaver

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #93 on: Sun, 06 July 2014, 06:32:38 »
Lots of laptops have smaller-than-standard keys. Often it’s really annoying to type on those. Apple laptop keyboards have keys of standard width but slightly reduced depth (i.e. the rows are closer together), which isn’t really a problem (helps them fit a bigger trackpad).

I think with a column-staggered keyboard, the reduced depth is a positive change (even down to 75–80% of normal maybe), as long as there is still sufficient horizontal separation; with a row-staggered keyboard though, I think reduced size would lead to more errors. (For instance, when briefly trying the μTRON I found that the keys were a bit too small for my comfort: it was easy for me to unintentionally hit the corners between keys)

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 16:22:49 »
Any updates on the keyboard? Vids of you hitting 90 WPM on advanced typing tests? :)

Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 00:23:58 »
Sorry I haven't updated in a while.  I've been very busy trying to finish the keyboard for Keycon and also starting a new project at work. I will try to get something up this weekend.

I will say that I'm very happy with most of the features on the PortaPlop but I ended up rushing several steps and it shows in the end product. I plan on writing up an exhaustive report on what worked, what didn't,  what I had to do several times to make work, what I learned and what I still have to do.  It does work but I need to reconfigure the layout.   

Offline krazyderek

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #96 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 21:53:01 »
I suppose that it is positive that the upcoming matias ergo pro features 25 regular width, decreased height keycaps. They are arrows, copy, paste, home, end, function keys and so on. Hopefully someone will dare to make alphanumerical keycaps in the same dimensions soon.
http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/2.jpg

Old thread, but for reference purposes, i though i would add that the ergo pro looks like it's using regular switches for the close vertical spacing keys like the copy paste and, arrows, and page up / down cluster. Here's a shot that shows the same switches just placed much closer together, and of course using smaller caps.
102928-0


Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.

There are two articles titled "The effect of keyboard key spacing on typing speed, error, usability, and biomechanics" Parts 1 & 2 which noted that 19-17mm key spacing was relatively the same, going under 17mm i think yielded some negative results, but the summary doesn't talk about long term effects, so i read it as, "that's how much you could change it without someone having to adapt to a new keyboard", and maybe the long term benefits would be worth it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23829030
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25029899
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #97 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 23:08:09 »

Old thread, but for reference purposes, i though i would add that the ergo pro looks like it's using regular switches for the close vertical spacing keys like the copy paste and, arrows, and page up / down cluster. Here's a shot that shows the same switches just placed much closer together, and of course using smaller caps.
(Attachment Link)

The smaller caps look like they won't fit around the Matias switches. Do they, or are the cap sides shallow and they stop before hitting the switch?  Could someone take a picture of the underside of the smaller caps for reference?


Btw has it been pointed out how smaller keycaps decrease the distance of finger movements result in faster typing? That is, as long as the increased precision requirement doesn't slow down the fingers enough to erase the speed win. I know for me, the speed win is not erased.

There are two articles titled "The effect of keyboard key spacing on typing speed, error, usability, and biomechanics" Parts 1 & 2 which noted that 19-17mm key spacing was relatively the same, going under 17mm i think yielded some negative results, but the summary doesn't talk about long term effects, so i read it as, "that's how much you could change it without someone having to adapt to a new keyboard", and maybe the long term benefits would be worth it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23829030
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25029899

Thanks for posting the 2 articles. While their results were interesting, there were 2 things that may be either misleading or incomplete.

     -It is important to note that the tests were conducted with users with large hands so the results should be proportionally scaled down for average or small hands.

     -The speed and accuracy tests were conducted after a fairly limited amount of time. More practice would likely improve both.

The results also tended to support the idea that the vertical spacing could be reduced more than the horizontal before experiencing adverse affects.

The articles led me to their other tests on keyboard ergonomics that are also worth checking out.

Thanks again for sharing and welcome to Geekhack.

 
 

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #98 on: Sun, 07 June 2015, 01:11:00 »
Those papers are also about standard QWERTY keyboard layout, and may be totally inapplicable to a split column-staggered keyboard.

Offline krazyderek

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Re: Do you think the 3/4" spacing between keys is optimum?
« Reply #99 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 08:07:46 »

The smaller caps look like they won't fit around the Matias switches. Do they, or are the cap sides shallow and they stop before hitting the switch?  Could someone take a picture of the underside of the smaller caps for reference?


Key caps are indeed shallow, here are a couple of shots, sorry i didn't have any callipers to measure with

103419-0103421-1103423-2103425-3103427-4103429-5103417-6
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 June 2015, 08:11:09 by krazyderek »
(Building) Dactyl 5x6 (pro purple)
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