Author Topic: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PC ("GB" fulfilled, thread closed)  (Read 24682 times)

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Offline yui

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #100 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 03:25:46 »
PCB looks beautiful!

I'm still interested in one of the 5 extras if/when they become available. I recently came into posession of some lovely Vintage German ISO OG Doubleshots and don't have a PCB for them yet.

Off that is so nice!

If I can't make the other 5 PCBs work, Jae will stock Doddle60 at his store, so you are pretty much covered!

what could go wrong? legitimately i wonder because manufacturing technologies has gone very far and now most IC are pretty much insensible to heat and static and i guess the pcb being checked at the factory should not have defects?
i am also asking because i am planing on making a few projects that require custom pcb (not keyboards though)
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Jae-3soteric

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #101 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 03:31:31 »
PCB looks beautiful!

I'm still interested in one of the 5 extras if/when they become available. I recently came into posession of some lovely Vintage German ISO OG Doubleshots and don't have a PCB for them yet.

Off that is so nice!

If I can't make the other 5 PCBs work, Jae will stock Doddle60 at his store, so you are pretty much covered!

what could go wrong? legitimately i wonder because manufacturing technologies has gone very far and now most IC are pretty much insensible to heat and static and i guess the pcb being checked at the factory should not have defects?
i am also asking because i am planing on making a few projects that require custom pcb (not keyboards though)


Itís not usually the fabrication thatís the issue. Sometimes there can be an overlooked flaw in the design or a trace missing etc. But this is why we prototype :)

That being said there are sometimes DOA units from fabricators - but usually less than 1%


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Offline yui

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #102 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 04:27:07 »
i was thinking for the 5 extra, i did not see why there would be a failure at this point, i see why prototyping is a good idea and having assembled a few pcb i did maybe ever killed one with my old non regulated soldering iron, so i guess that someone less amateurish than me should have even less trouble getting all working if the design is proven working?
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline rinkaan

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #103 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 06:52:22 »
just a question, what are the relief cuts on the pcb for? does it enhance the typing experience?
kinda curious seeing the nice design :)

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #104 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 14:43:36 »
PCB looks beautiful!

I'm still interested in one of the 5 extras if/when they become available. I recently came into posession of some lovely Vintage German ISO OG Doubleshots and don't have a PCB for them yet.

Off that is so nice!

If I can't make the other 5 PCBs work, Jae will stock Doddle60 at his store, so you are pretty much covered!

what could go wrong? legitimately i wonder because manufacturing technologies has gone very far and now most IC are pretty much insensible to heat and static and i guess the pcb being checked at the factory should not have defects?
i am also asking because i am planing on making a few projects that require custom pcb (not keyboards though)

i was thinking for the 5 extra, i did not see why there would be a failure at this point, i see why prototyping is a good idea and having assembled a few pcb i did maybe ever killed one with my old non regulated soldering iron, so i guess that someone less amateurish than me should have even less trouble getting all working if the design is proven working?

Ok, so big wall of text incoming and I don't want to lecture anyone, I'm just explaining my thought process here and why I have so strict QC.

Fist of all, a design flaw is always possible. No serious engineer on Earth will expect a prototype to work first-time. The Doddle60 had two versions prior to this prototype -- I wouldn't be crazy to get money feom complete stragers in other half of the globe and send them a PCB if I didn't know this was working.

Supposing that the design is fine (which it is, I have assembled 6 PCBs so far and all work wonderfully), the production line is still filled with possibilities for failures. Bad plating, bad cuts, bad finishing, bad soldermask, scratched PCB, bad logos. All of these have happened to me using reputable and big PCB manufacturers.

In the fabrication side, I have come about inumerous PCBs that had a perfectly fine project but there were faulty traces or components that hindered functioning. It is not uncommon, specially with prototyping units. I did use PCBWay, which is a fab known for less failures than the competitors, but it can still happen. Had I used JLC, for instance, which is known for cheap PCBs for prototyping, the failure rate can double.

In the assembly side, we can talk for hours on what could go on. I can heat up the MCU too much (which is still pretty sensible to heat, no so much to static), I can lift up a critical pad on the connector, I can scratch a trace, I can scratch the soldermask off, I can make dents or scratches that make a PCB aesthetically not pleasing, I can make a wrong solder connection, short two signals and fry a component off. I consider myself a professional engineer yes, but I am not foolproof, I have to avoid the arrogance of the title, get some humility and accept I can screw things up. C'est la vie.

In a production line they use much more controlled and reproducible methods such as a reflow oven, which has a heat curve they apply to components and can make everything much more failure-proof, specially through automatization, but there still are chances. I invite you to talk to some vendor friends and ask them the percentage of PCBs that come with fabrication issues.

The factory does not check every single connection. Yes they have a flying probe, but get this. This PCB has 300 pads, making for a maximum of 300*(300-1)/2 = 44850 possible current paths which is simply unfeasible to test individually, so they test key traces and connections in hopes that, if those are fine, chances are all are fine. Mind you that given a number of n pads, the possible current paths are n*(n-1)/2, that is, grows quadractically such that the bigger the pad numbers, the higher the fabrication issues possibilities are.

Sometimes the PCB can simply come scratched, dented or C-stock that I'd not be comfortable selling anyone at full 35USD+ price. I have a name to hold and this is literally my first GB, I want to be transparent and QC strict as I can. My effort here is so that people can ask anyone in any Discord server about experiences with me and someone will say "yeah, I own a Doddle60 and gondo did a good job" instead of "I have a Doddle60 that came scratched and paid full price for it". That's what I gain here, reputation capital.

Through my 10+ years of messing around with electronics I can assure you that ~5% of the PCBs I assemble and test fail at QC, be it aesthetically, be it functionally, be it faulty components that I have to reflow or replace, be it because I screwed up. If I make a GB for 10 PCBs, I'm ordering 15. I didn't do that because I expect to sell all 15 -- on the contrary, it's because I can't expect the first 10 to all work.

« Last Edit: Mon, 30 March 2020, 15:02:05 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #105 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 15:00:57 »
just a question, what are the relief cuts on the pcb for? does it enhance the typing experience?
kinda curious seeing the nice design :)

Yes! It adds to what we call "flex" and also has some impact on acoustics!
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline konstantin

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #106 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 17:28:40 »
Ok, so big wall of text incoming and I don't want to lecture anyone, I'm just explaining my thought process here and why I have so strict QC.

[...]

Great write-up on the risks involved in prototyping and hardware engineering in general. I enjoyed reading through that and I learned a few new things. Thanks.

Offline yui

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #107 on: Tue, 31 March 2020, 01:07:24 »
Thanks for that insight i actually did not think about aesthetics or that the board was pretty much impossible to test at the factory
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline sendrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #108 on: Wed, 01 April 2020, 07:15:56 »
Cool! Can't wait to get mine!  ;D
I like SA

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #109 on: Sun, 12 April 2020, 02:09:12 »
Update #13

Ok guys, I hope you are all taking care of yourselves and of your loved ones.

All 10 initial PCBs are assembled and working. I have contacted Jae and on monday I will try to send them.

There is, however, a possibility that I can't send them due to the coronvirius lockdown my state is in. From what I heard from post office friends, no receiving or sending international shipments are allowed at this time. I don't know when it will come back, as the lockdown was postponed twice here and there is no sign that the disease will give us a break, so I wager the lockdown will be postponed more. I will keep you guys informed.

As always, do not hesitate to send me messages over Discord for questions.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline yui

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #110 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 08:40:25 »
well it is the same in France as well so i am not sure i could even receive it if it was sent, still good luck and thanks for everything
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (assembling and QCing)
« Reply #111 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 14:32:21 »
Big news guys!
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 April 2020, 17:36:02 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipping to Jae soon)
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 17:35:20 »
Good news guys!

I will travel to another state where international shipping is being done regularly and I will ship the PCBs by monday/tuesday.

Everyone please send me your address at my email gondolindrim@acheronproject.com . DONT FORGET TO USE THE SUBJECT "Doddle 60 shipping address" so I can filter the messages.

I finished assembling all PCBs and alll 15 are up. From the 15, 10 are from you guys, 1 is going to Jae and one is going to MrKeebs. I will be talking to the other three lucky winners individually and, if they don't want the PCBs, the list goes on.

I have some warnings though:

- You guys might notice some specs of flux or cotton around, specially by the MCU and connector areas. That is completely normal and, albeit trying to clean them all with isopropyl and cotton, I might have missed a couple spots.;
- You guys might also notice some white powder on the PCB. Again, completely normal; that is due to the powder coming from the CNC machining of the PCB;
- PCBs will be shipped with VIA firmware so you can just pop them open, slap the cable and start using VIA. See this video for instructions: How to use VIA with your Doddle60 ;
- QMK is also supported. Then again, videos: Flashing on Windows/Mac, Flashing on Linux / Command line
- Each PCB was individually assembled, flashed and QC'd by yours truly. Every single switch of every single PCB was tested and confirmed working. So I can guarantee these bad boys are 100% up and running. Should you guys have trouble with a malfunctioning PCB, shoot me a Discord DM and I'll see what we can do;
- Everything you need to know is present at the Doddle60 documentation page in the official Acheron Project website.
- Enjoy  :D

And the files needed (firmware binary and JSON for VIA) can be downloaded here.

« Last Edit: Wed, 22 April 2020, 17:54:14 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipping to Jae soon)
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 18:23:14 »
Ok guys, so I tried contacting the three next contenders on the waiting list:

12   RETRURNISO
13   Len
14   VXQN

VXQN did not provide a Discord username, so I had to e-mail him. I will wait a week for the responses and, in negative case or no response, I'll go on the waiting list.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline VXQN

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipping to Jae soon)
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 04:33:59 »
Replied to your email in the affirmative!

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipping to Jae soon)
« Reply #115 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 08:01:54 »
Ok guys, so Len and RETURNISO did not respond to my Friend invitation on Discord and so are out. I will contact funderbunker and we have an extra unit, if anyone is interested in getting two of them.

Also not everyone sent me their addresses, so please send them to my e-mail!

EDIT: funder gave his spot up, so if anyone is interested we have two extra PCBs available.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 May 2020, 08:11:28 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline E-ant

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #116 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 09:01:37 »
I'm up for one.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #117 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 10:22:10 »
I'm up for one.

Nice :D

Please respond to me on gondolindrim@acheronproject.com, with the subject DODDLE60 SHIPPING EXTRA, your address and PayPal email
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #118 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 07:39:49 »
Guys I am still missing the addresses from deLEEs, KrasH and dmaxt . If you guys sent them to  me please do so again because I havent caught them
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:35:19 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #119 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:50:16 »
PCBs have just left Brazil and are headed to UK.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #120 on: Tue, 12 May 2020, 20:39:26 »
Update #16

Nothing to report. PCBs are on their way to the UK.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline ctrl

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #121 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 04:34:15 »
Hey! I'm really interested in a Doddle60, but unfortunately missed out on the deadline. If there's been any cancellations, I'd be very interested in one!

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #122 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 06:48:04 »
Hey! I'm really interested in a Doddle60, but unfortunately missed out on the deadline. If there's been any cancellations, I'd be very interested in one!

All spots were filled, but they will be available from jaes prototypist.net store
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 18:34:55 »
Update #17

Still nothing to report, PCBs are still on their way to Jae.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Jae-3soteric

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 30 May 2020, 07:53:04 »
PCBs arrived this morning. Iíll get them tested and packaged up next week (with plates for those that purchased them) and shipped ASAP.


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Offline deLEES

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #125 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 04:21:22 »
Guys I am still missing the addresses from deLEEs, KrasH and dmaxt . If you guys sent them to  me please do so again because I havent caught them

Hi Gondo. Sorry, not been looking at Geekhack for a while. I thought that Jae would be handling the shipping within the UK. He has my address already as I bought other things from him already. I hope this hasn't caused any issue. I can't wait to get this in a keeb :) Thanks.

Offline VXQN

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #126 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 04:23:11 »
Got my PCB this morning! Thanks both to Jae and Gondolindrim for making this happen. I'll be sure to post here when I put my build together. I think it's going to be plateless, with Outemu Silent Sky 2.2s (which I've had knocking around, unbuilt, for ages) with Cherry OG DE caps in a Silver Noxary T60. Slightly concerned that I won't like the Outemus so I might hold off on them...

Offline Jae-3soteric

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #127 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 05:52:01 »
Ok - all of these have now been shipped from me and are in transit to the buyers :D

Offline VXQN

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #128 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 07:52:12 »
I've tried two different versions of VIA and neither detect the doddle60. Any ideas as to why?

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #129 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 09:14:04 »
I've tried two different versions of VIA and neither detect the doddle60. Any ideas as to why?

You have to use the JSON file. Check one of my above comments where I put a link for it.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #130 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 09:15:02 »
Guys I am still missing the addresses from deLEEs, KrasH and dmaxt . If you guys sent them to  me please do so again because I havent caught them

Hi Gondo. Sorry, not been looking at Geekhack for a while. I thought that Jae would be handling the shipping within the UK. He has my address already as I bought other things from him already. I hope this hasn't caused any issue. I can't wait to get this in a keeb :) Thanks.

He was able to ship from the address he had! No worries.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Adelscott

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #131 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 09:23:43 »
Received PCB and plate 1h ago ! Thx !
Now I have to decide which switches are going on it !
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 June 2020, 09:31:13 by Adelscott »

Offline Puree

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (Shipped to Jae)
« Reply #132 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 09:48:35 »
Guys I am still missing the addresses from deLEEs, KrasH and dmaxt . If you guys sent them to  me please do so again because I havent caught them

Hi Gondo. Sorry, not been looking at Geekhack for a while. I thought that Jae would be handling the shipping within the UK. He has my address already as I bought other things from him already. I hope this hasn't caused any issue. I can't wait to get this in a keeb :) Thanks.

He was able to ship from the address he had! No worries.

Emailed'

Offline deLEES

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #133 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 10:18:28 »
Just got my :) Thanks guys! :)

Offline VXQN

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Re: [IC] Doddle60, a 60% plain-style ISO-only PCB (PCBs shipped)
« Reply #134 on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 10:57:12 »
I've tried two different versions of VIA and neither detect the doddle60. Any ideas as to why?

You have to use the JSON file. Check one of my above comments where I put a link for it.

Completely missed that message. All working fine now :)

Offline Gondolindrim

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Ok guys, all orders shipped and fulfilled. I'm closing this now. Should anyone have questions please DM me or Jae!
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.