[GB] SA Symbiosis R2 - Finished

[romevi]

SA Symbiosis v1 came first. Both Symbiosis and Space Cadet are based off the Symbolics space-cadet keyboard.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard?wprov=sfla1

[hhkbp2]

Standard SP SA R1 number row legends were too small next to Symbiosis 2.0 second iteration R2 alphas? V2 alphas looked good to me. How can you have too big legends on SA caps...?  )

7bit legends are really pushing the cap boundaries and they look great!

From what I understand 7bit used his own, or another font for certain legends?

I had the same thought when making the A-Z alphas legends big. But the compatibility looks not perfect when putting all number row legends with standard sizes and alphas legends with obviously bigger sizes together. So that I would like to try the standard size alphas legends. It's another story of 7bit legends. During previous rounds, He made different versions of legends with different sizes, using his customized legends for number row, alphas, mod etc. all keys. While we just customized the alphas legends here.

Is this SA Space Cadet with a new name or have I mistaken?

If you are talking about GMK Space Cadet, but in SA profile, no. That is Oblotzky's  creation. He has minimal, or no ties with this keyset.

This is Symbiosis R2, a play on "Symbolics", the manufacturer name of that Space Cadet keyboard.

From the historical point of view, Space-Cadet was name of a few versions of keyboards made by LMI and Symbolics. The most popular version in white case was manufactured by Symbolics, and "Symbolics" was also branded in top case this version. People called this keyboard Symbolics keyboard too.

xblackdog was inspired by the keyset of this keyboard to create the SA Symbiosis keyset. Similarly 7bit made SPH/Cadet kits in his rounds.

Oblotzky ported the keyset theme to GMK after he received the SA keyset from 7bit, so that came the GMK Space Cadet.

I inherited the name SA Symbiosis for this R2 run. And Kono was working to re-create the Space-Cadet keyboard. No new name was specified for this re-creation yet as I knew.

There were other keysets made in similar blue/gray/cream(white) color theme by SP/Maxkey without the APL legends. They usually had the name blue-gray, gray-blue or something like that.

In summary, Space-Cadet keyboard and Symbolics keyboard are usually nearly the same things. But when people say Space-Cadet keyset or Symbolics keyset, what they mean could be very different. It'd be clearer to call it in specified name.

[Resident]

Hi hhkbp2,

Thanks for taking up the task of making this keyset happen, and working through the communication issues behind the scenes!  I joined for a big pile of kits as soon as group buy went live, and I'm super excited for it.

I registered first to say thanks, but also to register my interest in having the alphas remain large.  The alpha legends are the star of the show, in my opinion.  I'd most rather see numeric row legends enlarged to match the large alpha legends.  Barring that, I'd rather see large alpha legends with standard numeric legends, even if it means they're not perfect and slightly mismatched.  Just my two cents.

[hhkbp2]

Hi hhkbp2,

Thanks for taking up the task of making this keyset happen, and working through the communication issues behind the scenes!  I joined for a big pile of kits as soon as group buy went live, and I'm super excited for it.

I registered first to say thanks, but also to register my interest in having the alphas remain large.  The alpha legends are the star of the show, in my opinion.  I'd most rather see numeric row legends enlarged to match the large alpha legends.  Barring that, I'd rather see large alpha legends with standard numeric legends, even if it means they're not perfect and slightly mismatched.  Just my two cents.

Thanks for your support! I agree that the alphas legends are important to this design. That's why I'm quite cautious (and maybe picky) on these legends.

I'm afraid the first option you mentioned is not possible for now because the order was placed to SP to use the standard number row legends. Between the options of "bigger size alphas + standard size number row" and "standard size alphas + number row", it's a trade off to make the choice: localized optimization for bigger alphas legends, or better compatibility for all legends. The difference between bigger size and standard size is about 10~12%. Still noticeable but the difference is not that big, not as big as the biggest 7bit creation(even bigger than the latest samples picture we have on this thread) vs Symbiosis R1 legends. Previously 7bit made a version of alphas on the standard sizes and it looks good, although he customized the number row legends as well to make them have wider shapes. That's why I would like to give another try before approving the alphas' production.

On this issue, we're stuck for a few weeks. I should already have real key samples of both sizes to show you guys for a better description, if things go well. But, well, currently I have to wait for the vendor's appearance and then work with all parties to continue this project.

[jimboytacos]

Hi hhkbp2,

Thanks for taking up the task of making this keyset happen, and working through the communication issues behind the scenes!  I joined for a big pile of kits as soon as group buy went live, and I'm super excited for it.

I registered first to say thanks, but also to register my interest in having the alphas remain large.  The alpha legends are the star of the show, in my opinion.  I'd most rather see numeric row legends enlarged to match the large alpha legends.  Barring that, I'd rather see large alpha legends with standard numeric legends, even if it means they're not perfect and slightly mismatched.  Just my two cents.

Thanks for your support! I agree that the alphas legends are important to this design. That's why I'm quite cautious (and maybe picky) on these legends.

I'm afraid the first option you mentioned is not possible for now because the order was placed to SP to use the standard number row legends. Between the options of "bigger size alphas + standard size number row" and "standard size alphas + number row", it's a trade off to make the choice: localized optimization for bigger alphas legends, or better compatibility for all legends. The difference between bigger size and standard size is about 10~12%. Still noticeable but the difference is not that big, not as big as the biggest 7bit creation(even bigger than the latest samples picture we have on this thread) vs Symbiosis R1 legends. Previously 7bit made a version of alphas on the standard sizes and it looks good, although he customized the number row legends as well to make them have wider shapes. That's why I would like to give another try before approving the alphas' production.

On this issue, we're stuck for a few weeks. I should already have real key samples of both sizes to show you guys for a better description, if things go well. But, well, currently I have to wait for the vendor's appearance and then work with all parties to continue this project.

Kono says this GB is starting shipping in September is this still true? when do you think any major update will take place?

[hhkbp2]

Kono says this GB is starting shipping in September is this still true? when do you think any major update will take place?

Similar questions were asked before. Refer to #343

[bardomudo]

I got in touch and exchanged a few emails with Kono regarding this set. I won't get in details because we don't need to worry or stir up any drama, but the gist of it is that the September timeline will not be honored due to multiple delays, including having to remake and correct the legends and the fact that they're a really small team (3 people only) who got a lot on their plate, so communication can be slow at times.

Let's all try to be understanding and accept that delays and communication issues happen, but ultimately what will make this set come to production and fruition successfully is us keeping our cool and patience, no need to constantly ask or pressure anyone about it.

Kono will work the details for the final design with hhkbp2 and it will go into production soon after.

[hhkbp2]

I got in touch and exchanged a few emails with Kono regarding this set. I won't get in details because we don't need to worry or stir up any drama, but the gist of it is that the September timeline will not be honored due to multiple delays, including having to remake and correct the legends and the fact that they're a really small team (3 people only) who got a lot on their plate, so communication can be slow at times.

Let's all try to be understanding and accept that delays and communication issues happen, but ultimately what will make this set come to production and fruition successfully is us keeping our cool and patience, no need to constantly ask or pressure anyone about it.

Kono will work the details for the final design with hhkbp2 and it will go into production soon after.

Thanks!

[nappis]

Show Image

Purple caps seem to have standard SP legends. You don't think the Symbiosis alpha legends don't look good next to purple cap legends sizewise?

[hhkbp2]

Purple caps seem to have standard SP legends. You don't think the Symbiosis alpha legends don't look good next to purple cap legends sizewise?

Yeah, like I said I think there might be something could be done for improvement.

[hhkbp2]

For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:



Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.

The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.

So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.

Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.

[h9n9n3]

For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:

Show Image

Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.

The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.

So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.

Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Worth waiting! Looks great to me ! Better than the bigger alphas

[cijanzen]

For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:

Show Image

Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.

The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.

So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.

Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.

And I thought I was happy with the previous alphas but these new ones look really fantastic. Good on you for being persistent and making sure the final outcome is what you wanted to achieve!

[fn]

For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:

Show Image

Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.

The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.

So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.

Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.

The new samples look great! Thanks for being persistent, they definitely match the number row better

[horchata771]

Can't wait for this set. Been reloading the Kono and Zfrontier pages like a madperson for the last few months. I assume then the September timeline is still accurate? No worries if else. Patience is a virtue! 

[kmicu]

Can't wait for this set. Been reloading the Kono and Zfrontier pages like a madperson for the last few months. […]

Isn’t this GB already over?

[FearsomeCubedWarrior]

~

[horchata771]

Can't wait for this set. Been reloading the Kono and Zfrontier pages like a madperson for the last few months. […]

Isn’t this GB already over?

True, but from time to time there are extras available. I've been able to find a nearly full set by just checking the Kono and Zfrontier everyday.

[phinix]

Will this be shipped in September?

[FearsomeCubedWarrior]

~

[pentathlos]

I got very lucky and managed to pick up a set of the alphas (and with them: modifiers, arrows, and vim). Thrilled! But both of the Choices sets remain perpetually unavailable, and those are the sets I was most excited for.

Is there any chance volume might be increased for the Choices? Or has anyone on this thread pre-ordered but since lost interest? I would be delighted to be able to get my hands on a Choices set.

[eas]

Is there any chance volume might be increased for the Choices? Or has anyone on this thread pre-ordered but since lost interest? I would be delighted to be able to get my hands on a Choices set.

You'll likely find on MechMarket after this ships

[Saga]

I really need alphas, I actually ordered everything else I need and I'm hoping a spare set comes up somewhere. Fingers crossed, or that was a very stupid buy.

[phinix]

I only ordered spacebars, wondering if these will be posted quickly.

[hhkbp2]

About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:



Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.

The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.

[cijanzen]

About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:

Show Image

Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.

The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.

These are really great! Thanks for pushing for what you wanted in terms of legends and for keeping us updated!

[horchata771]

About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:

Show Image

Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.

The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.

Whoa! Those look fantastic!! The wait will be well worth it for these.

[codywanks]

Thanks hhkbp2 for all the good work

[pentathlos]

Those look incredible, hhkbp2! Even more excited than before.

[fn]

About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:

Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.

The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.

They look awesome! no worries on the delay and thanks for the update

[Resident]

Thanks for your diligence, hhkbp2!  The legends look great.  This is going to be one of my most treasured sets for sure.

[tonny950111]

Well done Seven-up Cola !

[hhkbp2]

I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.

And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.

Here are some of pictures of the production kits:







There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what the rest look like rather than post them all here. 

Cheers.

[Saga]

s p a r e a l p h a s p l z

[qq]

I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.

And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.

Here are some of pictures of the production kits:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what they look like rather than post them all here.  ;D

Cheers.

Gosh, they're stunning. 1-year GB, the wait is (almost) over.  😋

[qq]

s p a r e a l p h a s p l z

Probably you've already known, when the GB started, alphas were the most affordable kit ($40 or so), comparing to other non-sense pricey kits (yes, cadet and spacekeys, looking at you). I've known people bought a bunch of alphas only. You will surely find them in the aftermarket sometimes.

[Saga]

s p a r e a l p h a s p l z

Probably you've already known, when the GB started, alphas were the most affordable kit ($40 or so), comparing to other non-sense pricey kits (yes, cadet and spacekeys, looking at you). I've known people bought a bunch of alphas only. You will surely find them in the aftermarket at sometimes.

I didn't know this, that's good to hear. I actually went ahead and bought all the other kits I'd need (since I'm a weirdo Norde user) and so all I need are the alphas.

[horchata771]

I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.

And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.

Here are some of pictures of the production kits:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what the rest look like rather than post them all here.  ;D

Cheers.

Holy bajoley!! Those emacs symbols look..... beautiful.  :thumb:

[BalticSubmarine]

Hope these can make it before the Dallas MK meetup but happy to get them regardless!

[mimalik]

I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.

And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.

Here are some of pictures of the production kits:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what the rest look like rather than post them all here.  ;D

Cheers.

Habana habana habana......dont care how much time it took, but getting it right was correct way, patiently waiting to get my hands on this.

[piit79]

So, after waiting for the set for 6 months, I get a message from Kono they oversold some of the kits (ortho in my case) and I won't be getting it

Kono, I am disappoint.

[jimboytacos]

So apparently, Kono oversold many kits and are cancelling orders.

Are other vendors going to be doing the same? Zfrontier? Etc?

[hhkbp2]

So, after waiting for the set for 6 months, I get a message from Kono they oversold some of the kits (ortho in my case) and I won't be getting it

Kono, I am disappoint.

So apparently, Kono oversold many kits and are cancelling orders.

Are other vendors going to be doing the same? Zfrontier? Etc?

So both your orders were canceled due to oversale? Terrible to hear that. It's like shooting in the foot themselves for the business......

[Kono Store]

Hello! We're popping in to provide some context on the cancellations. Most importantly: they're not widespread, and we made sure to preserve older orders. This issue shouldn't affect other vendors.

20-30 of the newest Kono orders amounting to around 2% of certain kits will be cancelled. For example — since Kono bought about 560 Alphas — we expect about 12 Alpha kits to be cancelled.

We sent an apology / notification email out and our support team is active this weekend to work things out.

This happened because we pushed the purchase order numbers up a few times during the group buy. At some point, those adjustments (which we made so more people could participate) fell slightly out of sync with actual numbers.

We're working with SP to have a second, smaller run of the most popular Symbiosis sets early next year. This will also help us serve some of the 20-30 people who are affected.

If you have any questions, please contact support@kono.store. Thank you for supporting, and waiting for, Symbiosis!

[hottrout]

Would there be any left over sets?

[menuhin]

...
We're working with SP to have a second, smaller run of the most popular Symbiosis sets early next year...

Great! That means for those who missed the GB will have a second chance to join early next year together with some of the affected order that are later in the queue.

[piit79]

... together with some of the affected orders...

So I can have my ortho kit in just a year from now! Lovely. /s

Sorry, I understand mistakes happen and Kono are handling it reasonably well (even offering some store credit) but I'm still disappointed, as you might imagine.

[Saga]

It feels like before this Kono had already burned a lot of goodwill, I haven't personally had a bad experience but I've definitely seen disappointment expressed whenever Kono is the vendor, and considering the cost/time involved this may have me considering ordering from out of country in the future...

As someone who was planning on picking up a set of Alphas from mechmarket to go with the other sets I preordered (since Alphas were sold out) I really wish I could cancel my order, this is going to absolutely screw with the aftermarket in a big way. That's on me to a large extent, but still.

[5inn3d-]

wow its been almost a year and I almost forgot i bought this.. hope there wont be any issues from zfrontier..

[ubiq]

Just wanted to chime in to share my experience with the kono store. After waiting this long, my Symbiosis 2.0 order has just been canceled because they cannot fulfill alphas and mods (out of all kits...). I'm super sad because this was one of the sets I was anticipating the most (the other one being the SA Laser). Another lesson in keeping one's expectations low. If there ever will be another chance to get this, I hope it won't be from kono... Has to do with trust...