Good deal on eBay --- IBM clicky keyboards

[philodox]

Hey,

I don't know this guy or anything, but just bought 4 keyboards off of him.  There are around 100 available, so they can't give you a specific model number, but I asked that he ensure that all 4 have removable cables which should hopefully get me some desirable boards.

Can't check to see what the shipping is like to the US, but within Canada, it is $15 for one and $5 for each additional.  Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

He shipped very quickly, and they should arrive in a day or so.  Will post here to let everyone know what I ended up getting.

eBay Item #: 120221333226

[bhtooefr]

Watch them be 1390120s or something.

(1390120 = the ORIGINAL Model M, with unidirectional communication, meaning no num/caps/scroll lock lights. )

Then again, 1390120s might actually be desirable if you're a collector instead of a user...

[philodox]

Well, the one pictured seems to be a 1391401, though they said they don't know all the model numbers of the keyboards they have.  They are all AT though, not XT, and I'd be happy with most of the detachable keyboard models.

[bhtooefr]

Actually, isn't an AT Model M a 1390131 if it's otherwise the same as a 1391401?

[philodox]

I mean AT protocol, not really worried about the termination, though PS/2 would be preferred.

[bhtooefr]

Oh, fair enough.

IIRC, the only Model M that even supports the PC/XT protocol is the MF-1, which is better known as the 1390120. And, it's dual-mode. (But, unidirectional even in AT mode, as it doesn't have LEDs.)

(The page I'm getting this info from is rather vague on what a 1390131 is, but the 1391401 is definitely an MF-II. Seeing as the 1390131 is the same thing as a 1391401 with a different cable, and came out in 1986, I'm gonna guess it's an MF-II, and this site is wrong about the MF-2 being new for the PS/2.)

Edit: OK, that site is utterly and totally wrong.

MF-1 is the PC and PC-XT board.
MF-II is the PC-AT board.

Edit 2 (actually, 3, but whatever): Now, I'm horribly confused. I'm finding references to MF-II being the Model M, and MF-1 being the previous versions.

[philodox]

Yeah, all the different versions of the Model M can get pretty confusing.  The one that I currently use at work is a 1993 model, with detachable cable, drain holes, metal backplate and blue IBM logo... which seems to be somewhat rare and was made at their plant in Mexico right before Lexmark took over.  I'm happy with this one for now, though I've been thinking about greasing the springs as it does tend to sound a little metallic/harsh at times.  The + key on the number pad doesn't seem to work either, but that is only a minor annoyance.

I have another board of the same type at work that is missing some keys, so even if I'm not a big fan of any of the 4 that I ordered, I can do a quick swap and use the parts to fix it up to use at home.

[bhtooefr]

Made in their plant at Mexico? I can beat you, there.

I'm typing this on a 1993 Model M, 1391401, with blue IBM logo, detachable cable, and drainage holes (they all have the metal backplate, even the Unicomp ones) made by IBM in the US, on June 3, 1993.

(The first Lexmark-made IBM-branded boards were made in Februrary, and the Lexmark took over 1391401 production between June and August. But, there are Lexmark-made boards (with other logos - usually Dell) dating as far back as 1991.)

[philodox]

Oh, I thought Lexmark took over after 1993.

It sounds like both our keyboards are pretty near identical except for a possibly different manufacturing location. [Who knows where either were actually made, labels are easily changed]  The date on mine is December 22nd.

As for the metal backplate, I had read that the Lexmark made models are lighter due to their all plastic construction.  Is this incorrect?

[bhtooefr]

Oh, and here's what I've figured out on the MF-1 vs. MF-II thing.

MF-II is definitely a 101Enh layout, from everything I've found, which means it's definitely some variant of Model M, and has the same scancodes as AT - 1391401 is definitely an MF-II, as is 1390131.

MF-1 has the same scancodes as XT, but I've seen references to it being a terminal keyboard, and that first site that was confusing about all of this definitely makes reference to it being a Model M - or maybe a Model M variant with 24 F-keys? Whatever it is, it has F-keys over the typing area, separate arrow keys, AND number keys over the typing area... just like a Model M. I'll also note that an updated XT motherboard (released in 1986, same as the Model M) has BIOS support for the 101Enh keyboard, but they didn't change any of the keyboard hardware. I'm gonna stick with my original 1390120 guess.

MF-III (?!?!??!) has mostly the same scancodes as MF-II and AT... until you get to right Alt, then that, the Ctrl, the arrow block, editing block, and F-keys are all different.

Anyway, Lexmarks have a thinner steel backplate - IIRC, 1/8" instead of 1/4". In addition, IIRC, the Lexmark boards have thinner plastic. But, they never got rid of it.

You want really heavy, though, go get yourself a pre-1989 Model M - those things are north of six pounds, IIRC.

[itlnstln]

Oh, I thought Lexmark took over after 1993.

It sounds like both our keyboards are pretty near identical except for a possibly different manufacturing location. [Who knows where either were actually made, labels are easily changed]  The date on mine is December 22nd.

As for the metal backplate, I had read that the Lexmark made models are lighter due to their all plastic construction.  Is this incorrect?

Sweet, it was made on my birthday (12/22, that is; I was born in 1978).  I have nothing else to add.  Carry on.

[itlnstln]

Anyway, Lexmarks have a thinner steel backplate - IIRC, 1/8" instead of 1/4".

I would say 1/16" vs. 1/8" as 1/4" would be quite thick.  I wouldn't doubt that Northgate used a thicker steel plate, though. It is noticably heavier than my 1991 IBM-made M.

[bhtooefr]

If it weren't so cold out, I'd grab the tools out of the trunk of my car, and check that. I've got my IBM-built 1391401, and a Lexmark-built M13... (the one that I've got for sale... maybe I can fix the button issues, too...)

[itlnstln]

It could be, too, that the Northgates have a 1/8" steel mounting plate for the switches, and another for the backplate, thus making the Northgate a little heavier as the M as a plastic backplate.  I think both make perfectly good weapons; however.

EDIT:  I can see the edge of the backplate on the Northgate, and it appears to be 1/16" thick.

[bhtooefr]

Interestingly, both my 1391401 and my M13 have 1/32" backplates... (Well, the 1391401 might be closer to 3/64"...)

(I ended up grabbing the tools after all...)

[itlnstln]

A 1/4" steel backplate would probably necessitate a permanent installation on your desk.

[bhtooefr]

I would be unsurprised if the keyboards included with the IBM 5251 or 3278 actually DID have a 1/4" backplate...

[philodox]

Well, I finally got the 4 model M's I ordered from my dads.  Turns out they are all french keyboards.  Not surprising I guess as the auction is in Quebec.

2x 1391413 [made in the USA, IBM Corp, 06-01-93]
1x 1391413 [made in USA, for IBM by Lexmark, 14-NOV-94]
1x 82G2385 [made in USA, for IBM by Lexmark, 07-APR-94]

The 1391413's all have detachable cables, and the 4th one has a permanently attached cord.  All 4 have the drain holes.

As for keys, I got some interesting ones.  French layouts as I mentioned, but a couple of the boards have some terminal keycaps [sysreq, monitor, etc].  Some other oddities as well... two Echap keys, one Esc and one Esc/Reset.  I'm thinking that some keys went flying and they had a box of spares.

Anyways, for $90 total shipped I'm pretty happy.

[Mercen_505]

That sounds like an excellent deal for spare parts. I'm guessing they all have at least a few custom keycaps?

[philodox]

Not sure, I think it is just a couple of them.  I'm going to disassemble all of them and give them a good clean... will try to take the 'choice' keys for my main home board, the best combination of french keys for my girlfriend [she's bilingual] and hopefully have a decent set left for a buddy of mine.  The 82G2385 with likely pretty mismatched keys will be as a backup or possibly for experimenting on.

I'm pumped to have a Model M at home as I've been getting spoiled by the one I have at work.

The seller still has over 100 boards left by the way... the ebay auction # is in the first post of this thread.

EDIT:  Also, I specifically asked for keyboards that have detachable cables... so who knows what you'd get if you just let them do their thing.  Not sure what variety they have and the ebayer wasn't certain either, but he did confirm that they are all buckling spring and IBM branded.

[andb]

Also, I specifically asked for keyboards that have detachable cables...

A good tip is to ask for a grey ibm logo in the upper left side. This will get you one of the 1391401s a lot of the time, the later boards have the blue logos. The only other one I can think of that I'd want are the 1390120s, which are the really early Ms with a square silver logo in the upper right and without the LED lights.

Another way is maybe just say "send me boards made before '90..."

[philodox]

My 1391401s at work have the blue logo.  I'm pretty sure that the three 1391413s that I recieved are just the french version of the 1391401, so no biggie.

I don't see any advantage to the grey logo boards from what I've read, but I really had my fingers crossed for the ones with the square silver logo.  As for asking for boards before '90, it might work, but I doubt these guys want to sort through what they have much.

[bhtooefr]

The ones that are the best are the ones with the blue logo and the detachable cable.

Then, you get the drainage holes, but still the IBM quality.

[philodox]

The ones that are the best are the ones with the blue logo and the detachable cable.

I agree, but that metal logo is pretty sweet looking.

The two that I have at work and three of the ones that I got from the auction all have the blue logo with detachable cables.

[andb]

The ones that are the best are the ones with the blue logo and the detachable cable.

Then, you get the drainage holes, but still the IBM quality.

Matter of opinion I guess. I like the oldest ones, with the grey logo. The older the better, for me. I just got an even older M, 05NOV86, which is  a 1390120, which I consider even cooler (square logo in upper right, like the industrial models). Has no lights for caps, scroll, num lock which I think is great. CTRL uses an odd keymapping, I'll have to define it when I decide to start using this 'board, so thats a bit of a drawback.

With other products I usually get the newest of a given series, but with the Ms, they're so indestructible that a few extra years of age never seems to matter.