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microsoft ergo layout

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mrninhvn:

--- Quote from: Findecanor on Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:32:38 ---
--- Quote from: mrninhvn on Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:09:11 ---how did you choose the angle of inclination of the middle-finder column.
--- End quote ---
I was mostly playing around, trying to mimic the "Alice" layout.
I think they use an opening angle of 12° and I increased that to 12.7 for the innermost keys.
The ZXCV and ASDF rows are symmetric on both sides, like on the Alice (but unlike some Microsoft and Logitech keyboards)

Which types of columns would you prefer?
More angle, or less? Offset home row or in-between the QWERT and ZXCV rows?

--- End quote ---
I think building a keyboard and typing is the best way to know what makes sense, or simply cut a plate and put a switch on it.

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mrninhvn:



--- Quote from: nevin on Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:35:25 ---
--- Quote ---I also wonder why no one has built keyboards like this yet.
--- End quote ---

because ortholinear + columnar (vertical) stagger makes more sense. *i would say better, but that's subjective.
... even basic ortholinear is better (in my opinion) and i've used both for many years (standard stagger & basic ortholinear)

standard staggered is pretty flawed regardless of how "popular" (common) it is.
.... still remnants of the typewriter age.....

--- End quote ---

I agree, but MS layout is easier to convert from standard stagger, Alice layout also appears more even though it's ugly.

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nevin:
if you go with a 14 column board, or split 5x7s you can pretty much keep the normal qwerty layout. only have to move one or two keys.

Findecanor:

--- Quote from: nevin on Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:35:25 ---because ortholinear + columnar (vertical) stagger makes more sense. *i would say better, but that's subjective.
... even basic ortholinear is better (in my opinion) and i've used both for many years (standard stagger & basic ortholinear)

--- End quote ---
BTW, the earlier keyboard layout that I posted above was meant as a way to bridge columnar and row-staggered.
The alphabetic keys are in straight columns at about the same angle: arctan(0.25)
The outer fingers' columns are offset to each-other similar to on a columnar keyboard, with even higher offsets than on ErgoDox/Corne/Iris/Lily58. The index-finger columns are higher up, but still more reachable than on a non-curved symmetric stagger, and the index fingers are the most movable digits after the thumbs.

However, there is one drawback with columnar keyboards compared to typewriter layout or symmetric stagger: they tend to make their users hold their hands parallel to the keyboard's plane, whereas on row-staggered the (right) hand has a slight angle.
That means that you'd need to have a higher tenting angle on columnar to achieve a similar ergonomic benefit as tenting a row-staggered keyboard.

Another weirdness of the typewriter layout is that with that wrist angle to the keyboard plane, bending the fingers draw arcs on the keyboard - not straight lines. A few keyboards based on this observation are in are in Gorbon's thread, including Gorbon's own layout.

nevin:

--- Quote ---Another weirdness of the typewriter layout is that with that wrist angle to the keyboard plane, bending the fingers draw arcs on the keyboard - not straight lines. A few keyboards based on this observation are in are in Gorbon's thread, including Gorbon's own layout.
--- End quote ---

yes, that was another good thread.

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