Author Topic: A few decent Model M deals  (Read 23796 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
A few decent Model M deals
« on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 18:36:24 »
A few decent deals on Model Ms that seem to be in nice shape:

Vintage Mechanical Keyboard IBM Model 1391401 Clicky 1392090 1984 <--- SOLD
BIN $49.99 + $5.00 shipping (U.S.)

(It's a rubber dome—my bad) (and it's over too, anyway)
Vintage 1985 IBM Model M Blue Label Keyboard - Old School
$69.99 OBO, free shipping

Made in Greenock, but if that doesn't matter: <--- Wrong, U.S. made! (Thanks, Fohat)[/i]
VINTAGE IBM BLUE CLICKY KEYBOARD 42H1292 OCT 1995 PS/2 TESTED <--- SOLD
$52.19 OBO, free shipping
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:45:17 by ander »
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 18:40:43 »
Greenock? The 42H was "Made in USA"

But the 71G is a rubber dome, you can tell by the first digit being "7"
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline jwaz

  • * based mod
  • Posts: 2069
  • #geekhack on freenode
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 18:55:37 »
$50+ is a good deal for a model m these days? I need to go to the e-cycler more, this eBay stuff is getting out of hand.

Offline pr0ximity

  • Posts: 2705
  • Location: Maine
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 19:57:41 »
Given that Lexmark was founded in 1991, I'm not sure I'd agree that the "1985 Blue Label" is "Old School"

| Flickr | KMAC 1.2 | Koala | GSKT-00-Z | GSKT-00-AEK | GON NerD60 | Jane V2 CE | Whale | J80S | Ibis | Pro2 | Pro1 | 356mini | 356CL DGE | G80-5000 HAMDE | IBM 1390120 | IBM F AT | IBM F122 | IBM 3101 | Zenith Z-150

Offline pr0ximity

  • Posts: 2705
  • Location: Maine
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 20:01:24 »
$50+ is a good deal for a model m these days? I need to go to the e-cycler more, this eBay stuff is getting out of hand.
Pretty exciting, they seem to have been a nice investment if 90's Model M's are going for $70+

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-Model-M-52G9700-1994-Clicky-Keyboard-Long-PS-2-Cord-Tested-Blue-Logo-

I'll be retiring early, boys. A silver label must be at least $300 in a few years.
| Flickr | KMAC 1.2 | Koala | GSKT-00-Z | GSKT-00-AEK | GON NerD60 | Jane V2 CE | Whale | J80S | Ibis | Pro2 | Pro1 | 356mini | 356CL DGE | G80-5000 HAMDE | IBM 1390120 | IBM F AT | IBM F122 | IBM 3101 | Zenith Z-150

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 21:00:06 »
$50+ is a good deal for a model m these days? I need to go to the e-cycler more, this eBay stuff is getting out of hand.

I have always felt that a good clean vintage M should be worth as much as a new Unicomp.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline ThoughtArtist

  • Posts: 310
  • Location: A climate-controlled testing facility
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 21:00:39 »
Why do they put "1984" when it clearly says it was manufactured in 1993?

Offline ThoughtArtist

  • Posts: 310
  • Location: A climate-controlled testing facility
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 21:10:37 »
$50+ is a good deal for a model m these days? I need to go to the e-cycler more, this eBay stuff is getting out of hand.

I have always felt that a good clean vintage M should be worth as much as a new Unicomp.

Vintage is overpriced junk.

This is worth so much more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unicomp-085-00978-0000-Model-M-PS-2-Clicky-Keyboard-/152018303833

Offline jwaz

  • * based mod
  • Posts: 2069
  • #geekhack on freenode
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 21:12:20 »
Why do they put "1984" when it clearly says it was manufactured in 1993?

Because the most obvious date on the label is the copyright.

Offline ThoughtArtist

  • Posts: 310
  • Location: A climate-controlled testing facility
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 21:13:26 »
Why do they put "1984" when it clearly says it was manufactured in 1993?

Because the most obvious date on the label is the copyright.

It's the first thing their monkey saw when looking at the label?

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 03:34:35 »
Greenock? The 42H was "Made in USA"... But the 71G is a rubber dome, you can tell by the first digit being "7"

Ack, you're entirely right on both counts. My apologies, especially re the RD [blush].


$50+ is a good deal for a model m these days? I need to go to the e-cycler more, this eBay stuff is getting out of hand.

$50 shipped is a good deal. I wouldn't pay that plus $15 or $20 shipping, but many people would now.


I'll be retiring early, boys. A silver label must be at least $300 in a few years.

You're joking now, but who saw $1000 industrials coming?


I have always felt that a good clean vintage M should be worth as much as a new Unicomp.

Excellent point. And good, clean M's seem to be getting very close to that—I rarely see them nowadays with BIN below $80. BINs are often over $100. I don't know how many of the latter actually sell, but pricing trends push up people's perceived values of items, and eventually affect their sale prices.


Given that Lexmark was founded in 1991, I'm not sure I'd agree that the "1985 Blue Label" is "Old School"

I reckon any board made in the 20th century is considered "old school" by most people. Funny that they cited a "1985 Blue Label" board, too—they don't exist. This one was made in '95; they just misread the label. (And it turned out to be an RD, of course, so it's probably moot.)


Why do they put "1984" when it clearly says it was manufactured in 1993?

When people (e.g. sorter/listers at a recycler's) glance at an IBM label, the first date that usually jumps out at them is the copyright date:


133971-0


...that's the same on virtually all Model M's.

Well, guys, again, I apologize for not paying more attention on this one.
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 05:24:37 »
DAMMMIT IM TO LAAATE

Would you've shipped to the Netherlands? Do people here usually ship to Europe?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 12:06:40 »
$50+ is a good deal for a model m these days? I need to go to the e-cycler more, this eBay stuff is getting out of hand.

I have always felt that a good clean vintage M should be worth as much as a new Unicomp.

Vintage is overpriced junk.

This is worth so much more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unicomp-085-00978-0000-Model-M-PS-2-Clicky-Keyboard-/152018303833

A steal at even $200.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3477
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 12:11:30 »
Tbh I think I'd sympathise more with Unicomp if the lock light sticker wasn't so eye-wateringly fugly xD .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 12:29:40 »
Tbh I think I'd sympathise more with Unicomp if the lock light sticker wasn't so eye-wateringly fugly xD .

Why the unicomp? Is the feel almost the same as model M?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 13:01:32 »

Why the unicomp? Is the feel almost the same as model M?


A Unicomp  * IS *  a Model M, completely and thoroughly. Made on the same machines in the same factory that IBM owned and operated decades ago.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 13:02:21 »

Why the unicomp? Is the feel almost the same as model M?


A Unicomp  * IS *  a Model M, completely and thoroughly. Made on the same machines in the same factory that IBM owned and operated decades ago.

Thanks, didn't knew that!
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 13:56:43 »

Why the unicomp? Is the feel almost the same as model M?


A Unicomp  * IS *  a Model M, completely and thoroughly. Made on the same machines in the same factory that IBM owned and operated decades ago.

Thanks, didn't knew that!

Consider that while the Unicomp is made using the same tooling, the composition of the clamshell material was changed 16 years ago, thus the case has a lot more flex and creaks when flexed. A cursory glance at both, a white IBM manufactured Model M and one made by Unicomp, probably wouldn't reveal any notable differences, but the devil is in the details. There are some cosmetics imperfections on the surface of the Unicomp case that are absent in IBM manufactured Model M's, and a lot of the keycaps used by Unicomp also have flashing around the bottom edges. It's the little things that, when added up, really shine a negative light on Unicomp's quality control compared to IBM manufactured Model M's. So, yes, while Unicomp uses the same tooling, the quality of the end product falls short of IBM's standards, in my opinion. That said, to anyone who's sole interest is in the typing experience, I'd say Unicomp's are similar enough that any differences are negligible.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 14:13:08 »

Why the unicomp? Is the feel almost the same as model M?


A Unicomp  * IS *  a Model M, completely and thoroughly. Made on the same machines in the same factory that IBM owned and operated decades ago.

Thanks, didn't knew that!

Consider that while the Unicomp is made using the same tooling, the composition of the clamshell material was changed 16 years ago, thus the case has a lot more flex and creaks when flexed. A cursory glance at both, a white IBM manufactured Model M and one made by Unicomp, probably wouldn't reveal any notable differences, but the devil is in the details. There are some cosmetics imperfections on the surface of the Unicomp case that are absent in IBM manufactured Model M's, and a lot of the keycaps used by Unicomp also have flashing around the bottom edges. It's the little things that, when added up, really shine a negative light on Unicomp's quality control compared to IBM manufactured Model M's. So, yes, while Unicomp uses the same tooling, the quality of the end product falls short of IBM's standards, in my opinion. That said, to anyone who's sole interest is in the typing experience, I'd say Unicomp's are similar enough that any differences are negligible.

I've just tried to make sense of their offerings. I have a Mac and I don't see any switches to swap win-key with alt/ctrl. They don't have an 87 / TKL (which I can imagine.. trying to replicate the model M and tooling). And I don't know what kind of plastic their caps is... is it ABS or PBT? And can I get replacement caps?

EDIT: Thanks btw for the detailed info!
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 15:20:31 »
Caps are dye-sub PBT.

They sell some Apple-oriented replacement sets, and some of the models can be ordered as native Apple.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 15:52:57 »
Caps are dye-sub PBT.

They sell some Apple-oriented replacement sets, and some of the models can be ordered as native Apple.

Thanks, I'll probably buy one sooner or later.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 17:35:44 »
Consider that while the Unicomp is made using the same tooling, the composition of the clamshell material was changed 16 years ago, thus the case has a lot more flex and creaks when flexed. A cursory glance at both, a white IBM manufactured Model M and one made by Unicomp, probably wouldn't reveal any notable differences, but the devil is in the details. There are some cosmetics imperfections on the surface of the Unicomp case that are absent in IBM manufactured Model M's, and a lot of the keycaps used by Unicomp also have flashing around the bottom edges. It's the little things that, when added up, really shine a negative light on Unicomp's quality control... That said, to anyone who's sole interest is in the typing experience, I'd say Unicomp's are similar enough that any differences are negligible.

This has been discussed many times of course (for example).

I've always gotten around all this by considering Unicomps a different breed of keyboard than IBM's. No, they're not perfectly finished like IBMs were—but Unicomp isn't selling them for $200 (in '80s/'90s money!) like IBM did, nor in anything close to IBM's volume. Detail = time = money; that's just reality.

I think the fact that Unicomp is making BS KBs at all is remarkable enough that the small cosmetic differences don't bother me. And while I can't speak for everyone, I actually like the differences between IBM/Unicomp boards in materials, weight, touch and sound. It's like having two types of BS KBs, like a Matias board is different from an Alps board. Considering most of us want to have one of everything anyway, it seems like a win/win to me.


Tbh I think I'd sympathise more with Unicomp if the lock light sticker wasn't so eye-wateringly fugly xD .

An oft-voiced complaint.  :?)  But again, IBM was making enough on their hardware to keep visual designers on their staffs. The people who bought Lexmark and created Unicomp were engineers and executives who—primarily out of love for BS boards, I suspect—took on a daunting challenge even without designers on the payroll. So graphically, I see a Unicomp board as a left-brain engineer's vision of a Model M. I sort of like that.


Vintage is overpriced junk... This is worth so much more:
   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unicomp-085-00978-0000-Model-M-PS-2-Clicky-Keyboard-/152018303833

A steal at even $200.

You guys are being funny of course. I spotted that oddly yellowed Unicomp too:





Wonder why the heck it did that, unlike any other Unicomp I (and probably you) have ever seen? Well, it was an OEM board:





...so my best guess is, the client insisted that Unicomp add flame-retardant to their mix. That's usually what causes such radical, Apple-board-type yellowing.
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 10 April 2016, 21:27:33 »
Consider that while the Unicomp is made using the same tooling, the composition of the clamshell material was changed 16 years ago, thus the case has a lot more flex and creaks when flexed. A cursory glance at both, a white IBM manufactured Model M and one made by Unicomp, probably wouldn't reveal any notable differences, but the devil is in the details. There are some cosmetics imperfections on the surface of the Unicomp case that are absent in IBM manufactured Model M's, and a lot of the keycaps used by Unicomp also have flashing around the bottom edges. It's the little things that, when added up, really shine a negative light on Unicomp's quality control... That said, to anyone who's sole interest is in the typing experience, I'd say Unicomp's are similar enough that any differences are negligible.

This has been discussed many times of course (for example).

I've always gotten around all this by considering Unicomps a different breed of keyboard than IBM's. No, they're not perfectly finished like IBMs were—but Unicomp isn't selling them for $200 (in '80s/'90s money!) like IBM did, nor in anything close to IBM's volume. Detail = time = money; that's just reality.

They're the same breed, just not the same quality. And you can buy an original IBM manufactured Model M in good condition for less than a new Unicomp.

I think the fact that Unicomp is making BS KBs at all is remarkable enough that the small cosmetic differences don't bother me. And while I can't speak for everyone, I actually like the differences between IBM/Unicomp boards in materials, weight, touch and sound. It's like having two types of BS KBs, like a Matias board is different from an Alps board. Considering most of us want to have one of everything anyway, it seems like a win/win to me.

The difference is Matias isn't attempting to reproduce a specific keyboard.

Tbh I think I'd sympathise more with Unicomp if the lock light sticker wasn't so eye-wateringly fugly xD .

An oft-voiced complaint.  :?)  But again, IBM was making enough on their hardware to keep visual designers on their staffs. The people who bought Lexmark and created Unicomp were engineers and executives who—primarily out of love for BS boards, I suspect—took on a daunting challenge even without designers on the payroll. So graphically, I see a Unicomp board as a left-brain engineer's vision of a Model M. I sort of like that.

Unicomp still sells the original LED overlays.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3477
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 02:15:04 »
That's pretty cool, I didn't know that - that said, it looks like those aren't compatible with Unicomp-made Ms xD .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 13:28:20 »
Unicomp still sells the original LED overlays.

Nicee... that would be a requirement. Why don't they just include it in the box? That default sticker is off-putting.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 14:05:00 »
That's pretty cool, I didn't know that - that said, it looks like those aren't compatible with Unicomp-made Ms xD .

That's true, though the Pearl overlay with LED's on top is compatible and looks better than the included monstrosity:

Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 14:05:56 »
Unicomp still sells the original LED overlays.

Nicee... that would be a requirement. Why don't they just include it in the box? That default sticker is off-putting.

Chyros is right, it's not compatible, but I'd still prefer the overlay above.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 14:12:35 »
134093-0
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 15:03:52 »
(Attachment Link)

That looks much better..

Only thing I would change is those windows keys. They look a bit misaligned even?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 16:24:09 »
(Attachment Link)

That looks much better..

Only thing I would change is those windows keys. They look a bit misaligned even?

I'd probably replace them with unprinted keycaps.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 16:27:49 »
Only thing I would change is those windows keys.

Unicomp sells the angular 8/10 Windows keys as well as penguins.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 17:21:01 »
(Attachment Link)

That looks much better..

Only thing I would change is those windows keys. They look a bit misaligned even?

I'd probably replace them with unprinted keycaps.

Those exist? Those blank caps? Where can I get those?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 11 April 2016, 19:05:50 »
(Attachment Link)

That looks much better..

Only thing I would change is those windows keys. They look a bit misaligned even?

I'd probably replace them with unprinted keycaps.

Those exist? Those blank caps? Where can I get those?

Unicomp sells everything blank and printed. Blank is cheaper. There are a few odd things missing, like certain black space bars and shift keys, and the good colors are only available in 1x size.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 12 April 2016, 08:24:47 »
(Attachment Link)

That looks much better..

Only thing I would change is those windows keys. They look a bit misaligned even?

I'd probably replace them with unprinted keycaps.

Those exist? Those blank caps? Where can I get those?

Unicomp sells everything blank and printed. Blank is cheaper. There are a few odd things missing, like certain black space bars and shift keys, and the good colors are only available in 1x size.

Thanks! Good to know it's possible.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 01:44:23 »
I've always gotten around all this by considering Unicomps a different breed of keyboard than IBM's. No, they're not perfectly finished like IBMs were—but Unicomp isn't selling them for $200 (in '80s/'90s money!) like IBM did, nor in anything close to IBM's volume. Detail = time = money; that's just reality.

They're the same breed, just not the same quality. And you can buy an original IBM manufactured Model M in good condition for less than a new Unicomp.

Don't rephrase me, dude—I know what I meant.

Breed means "a group of persons or things distinguished by similar characteristics, interests or qualities" (Merriam-Webster). So even by your own description, they could be considered that way.

As I also said, I think the differences are moot. I see you have a Unicomp yourself. Do you type on it? Or do you just keep it around so you can point a finger at it now and then and say, "Ha! You're not as good as an IBM"?

There must be a small number of GH members who own only an IBM or a Unicomp, but there can't be more than one or two who wouldn't want both—because they're both worth having. And unless you want something just so you can complain about it (unlikely), it's silly and/or hypocritical to want it and criticize it. It may also be an indication that you have just a wee bit too much free time.  :?)


...I actually like the differences between IBM/Unicomp boards in materials, weight, touch and sound. It's like having two types of BS KBs, like a Matias board is different from an Alps board.

The difference is Matias isn't attempting to reproduce a specific keyboard.

No, just a specific switch, but comparing the boards they contain is inevitable.
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 01:47:35 »
That's pretty cool, I didn't know that - that said, it looks like those aren't compatible with Unicomp-made Ms xD .

That's true, though the Pearl overlay with LED's on top is compatible and looks better than the included monstrosity...

Unicomp still sells the original LED overlays.

Nicee... that would be a requirement. Why don't they just include it in the box? That default sticker is off-putting.

Chyros is right, it's not compatible, but I'd still prefer the overlay above.

That looks much better... Only thing I would change is those windows keys. They look a bit misaligned even?

I'd probably replace them with unprinted keycaps.

That reminds me: Did you know that there are families who've lived in refugee camps so long, their teenage kids don't know what it's like to be anywhere that's not fenced in, where they don't have to line up for food, and where they don't have to share a tent with several other people?
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 06:57:47 »
I've always gotten around all this by considering Unicomps a different breed of keyboard than IBM's. No, they're not perfectly finished like IBMs were—but Unicomp isn't selling them for $200 (in '80s/'90s money!) like IBM did, nor in anything close to IBM's volume. Detail = time = money; that's just reality.

They're the same breed, just not the same quality. And you can buy an original IBM manufactured Model M in good condition for less than a new Unicomp.

Don't rephrase me, dude—I know what I meant.

According to Webster:

Breed means "a group of persons or things distinguished by similar characteristics, interests or qualities" (Merriam-Webster).

I wasn't paraphrasing you. I was disagreeing with you.

From Merriam-Webster online:

Breed:

3 : class, kind

The Oxford English Dictionary:

1.1 A sort or kind of person or thing

As I also said, I think the differences are moot.

In my opinion, the differences in kind are inconsequential. The differences in quality aren't.

There must be a small number of GH members who own only an IBM or a Unicomp, but there can't be more than one or two who wouldn't want both—because they're both worth having. And unless you want something just so you can complain about it (unlikely), it's silly and/or hypocritical to want it and criticize it.

My Unicomp is currently being utilized by a family member as a replacement for an IBM Model M that was injured in a coke spilling incident(consequently damaging the PCB), and I have no inclination to risk another original IBM Model M. I would've kept the Unicomp anyway though. My original motive for purchasing one was born out of a desire to own a brand new Model M, however after discovering the qualitative differences I didn't sell it because I wanted a physical specimen to base my opinions on rather than discussing it (on this and other forums) solely from memory.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 07:03:53 »
That reminds me: Did you know that there are families who've lived in refugee camps so long, their teenage kids don't know what it's like to be anywhere that's not fenced in, where they don't have to line up for food, and where they don't have to share a tent with several other people?

I know, and I feel awful for those families, but some of us have first world problems to deal with.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 08:41:23 »
That reminds me: Did you know that there are families who've lived in refugee camps so long, their teenage kids don't know what it's like to be anywhere that's not fenced in, where they don't have to line up for food, and where they don't have to share a tent with several other people?

If only they had a true model m. Those teenage kids would have been SO happy, beyond belief. Rattling away on those springs. Though, if they had to share a tent, they might've started killing each other because of the noise of BS.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 06:46:39 »
If only they had a true model m. Those teenage kids would have been SO happy, beyond belief. Rattling away on those springs. Though, if they had to share a tent, they might've started killing each other because of the noise of BS.

Ha ha... Let's face it, you can't win.

1391406: It's all semantics. I meant what I meant, and you meant what you meant. I just didn't want you telling me what I meant.

IMHO, IBMs and Unicomps are both great, in different ways. I'm quite pleased to have one of each, as I'd be pleased to have two kinds of sports cars—even if one wasn't quite as solidly made as the other (and there are lots of sportscars like that). They'd sound different and feel different. When I got tired of one, I could switch to the other. And they'd both be vastly better than typical cheap boring cars.

Anyway, pick over details like this as long as you wish... I'm just going to enjoy what I've got.  :?)
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 10:01:46 »
1391406: It's all semantics.

If language is going to have meaning then the words we use should conform to their definitions.

I meant what I meant, and you meant what you meant. I just didn't want you telling me what I meant.

Again, I know what you meant. My reply was an expression of disagreement.

IMHO, IBMs and Unicomps are both great, in different ways.

Which different ways are you referring to? The difference in feel is negligible, and soundwise, Unicomp Model M's lack the hollow metallic pinging that IBM manufactured Model M's are known for. The primary differences between the two are qualitative.

I'm quite pleased to have one of Anyway, pick over details like this as long as you wish... I'm just going to enjoy what I've got.

What you like is undoubtedly your business. My sole contention is that Unicomp Model M's are qualitatively inferior to IBM manufactured Model M's. To what degree the qualitative differences have relevance for you or anyone else is of no consequence to me.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 10:02:44 »

My sole contention is that Unicomp Model M's are qualitatively inferior to IBM manufactured Model M's.


A Unicomp is an absolute, real, true, actual Model M keyboard in every way.

"They don't make 'em like they used to."

How many times do we have to go through this?

Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 14:24:42 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:21:00 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:46:32 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?

F's use capacitive actuation and M's are membrane based. Further, the bottom half of the Model F case (122-key) is metal.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:49:09 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:47:46 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?

F's use capacitive actuation, M's are membrane based. Further, the bottom half of the Model F case is metal.

Thanks for the info. So if you want the real BS experience, you want an F or M?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3477
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:48:41 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?
The keyfeel is lighter and much crisper and cleaner on the F. I know it might sound superficial, but it's genuinely night and day.

The sound is also totally different. The M is a "thock" kind of sound, while the F is much more like a "ping" sound and it's much louder. In fact, the F is probably the loudest switch/keyboard I know of.
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:52:33 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?

F's use capacitive actuation, M's are membrane based. Further, the bottom half of the Model F case is metal.

Thanks for the info. So if you want the real BS experience, you want an F or M?

I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:54:19 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:54:57 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?

F's use capacitive actuation, M's are membrane based. Further, the bottom half of the Model F case is metal.

Thanks for the info. So if you want the real BS experience, you want an F or M?

I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.

Cool, thanks again! Now if only I could GET one
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3477
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:41:52 »
Anyway, the quality differences between IBM Ms and Unicomp Ms are trivial compared to the real differences between Ms and Fs.

What do you expect? M's and F's are different models, but as far as Model M's are concerned, I don't consider the qualitative differences between IBM and Unicomp Model M's to be negligible.

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?

F's use capacitive actuation, M's are membrane based. Further, the bottom half of the Model F case is metal.

Thanks for the info. So if you want the real BS experience, you want an F or M?

I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.

Cool, thanks again! Now if only I could GET one
They're seriously not that hard to find. There's always a bunch on eBay at the least.

They even found an F AT at the recycling centre for me once, but a new guy accidentally tossed it in the recycler before I could come and collect it D; .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:59:34 »
I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.

Cool, thanks again! Now if only I could GET one
They're seriously not that hard to find. There's always a bunch on eBay at the least.

They even found an F AT at the recycling centre for me once, but a new guy accidentally tossed it in the recycler before I could come and collect it D; .

ebay doesn't ship to the netherlands or do they?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:29:39 »
I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.

Cool, thanks again! Now if only I could GET one
They're seriously not that hard to find. There's always a bunch on eBay at the least.

They even found an F AT at the recycling centre for me once, but a new guy accidentally tossed it in the recycler before I could come and collect it D; .

ebay doesn't ship to the netherlands or do they?

A lot of sellers ship internationally, but shipping to the Netherlands can be expensive depending on the location of the seller.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3477
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 19:19:46 »
I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.

Cool, thanks again! Now if only I could GET one
They're seriously not that hard to find. There's always a bunch on eBay at the least.

They even found an F AT at the recycling centre for me once, but a new guy accidentally tossed it in the recycler before I could come and collect it D; .

ebay doesn't ship to the netherlands or do they?
Lots of sellers ship to the Netherlands! Might not be cheap, but many do :) .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 20:35:11 »

What's the largest difference between model M and F anyway?


Absolutely everything is different about a Model F except the key caps.

Take them apart and you will be amazed.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #54 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:13:49 »
I much prefer the key feel of Model F's by far. Compared to M's, the keys feel lighter, snappier, and a bit crisper, in my opinion.

Cool, thanks again! Now if only I could GET one
They're seriously not that hard to find. There's always a bunch on eBay at the least.

They even found an F AT at the recycling centre for me once, but a new guy accidentally tossed it in the recycler before I could come and collect it D; .

ebay doesn't ship to the netherlands or do they?
Lots of sellers ship to the Netherlands! Might not be cheap, but many do :) .

Thanks! So frustrating to live in the Netherlands as a collector / enthusiast. Really expensive to get stuff into my country.

Fun thing is, I'm always aftertaxed here. Reasoning of my country is "You could've gotten it here, so we are missing tax income". Fun fact: that **** is not in my country for sale anywhere. Oh well.. /rant
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline aptivaboy

  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Sunny SoCal
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 04 May 2016, 22:14:04 »
IBM versus Unicomp?

They're pretty much the same, as far as I'm concerned with one difference. The 1987 Model M I use at work has nice clicks, while the Unicomp I'm typing on right now has more of a thunk sound. The original needs slightly less key pressure, as has been noted elsewhere many times, than the Unicomp, which is what probably causes the different sounds. Other than that, they're pretty much the same board. I love all three of mine (black Unicomp EnduraPro with oversized lettering, 1987 IBM Model M, and a 1993 or so IBM Ambra Model M with the greased "quiet" buckling springs). All behave more or less the same, with the Ambra being the lightest on the fingers, then the Model M, then the Unicomp. 

I'm really only talking about the actual key action and operability. Some will say the plastic is different (they're right), but times and materials change. My Unicomp's frame does creak more than the others, but in terms of how is actually functions its still great.

By the way, if you're a Model M enthusiast grab Ambra board if you ever come across one - a smooth typing experience, and very quiet for a Model M!

Bob

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 00:57:39 »
Some will say the plastic is different (they're right), but times and materials change.

In this case for the worse:

Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 07:14:09 »
By the way, if you're a Model M enthusiast grab Ambra board if you ever come across one - a smooth typing experience, and very quiet for a Model M!

All Ambras aren't greased and all greased M's aren't Ambras.  Some of them do have that font on the keys that's a bit different from standard.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 07:27:46 »

All Ambras aren't greased and all greased M's aren't Ambras.  Some of them do have that font on the keys that's a bit different from standard.


I just took a spin through the Model M wikipedia list and I don't see any mention of the "grease mod" under "features" so I am wondering whether the greased ones were a different model, or whether standard production Ms just sometimes received the grease, say, as an option that somebody special-ordered?
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 09:28:52 »

All Ambras aren't greased and all greased M's aren't Ambras.  Some of them do have that font on the keys that's a bit different from standard.


I just took a spin through the Model M wikipedia list and I don't see any mention of the "grease mod" under "features" so I am wondering whether the greased ones were a different model, or whether standard production Ms just sometimes received the grease, say, as an option that somebody special-ordered?

They were referred to as "soft touch".    For example: http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/model-m-gallery/1994-ibm-model-m-soft-touch-8184692/
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3477
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 10:08:58 »
By the way, if you're a Model M enthusiast grab Ambra board if you ever come across one - a smooth typing experience, and very quiet for a Model M!

All Ambras aren't greased and all greased M's aren't Ambras.  Some of them do have that font on the keys that's a bit different from standard.
Wait, there are no greased Ambras at all? Oo
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline aptivaboy

  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Sunny SoCal
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 05 May 2016, 12:20:30 »
What's interesting is that my Ambra does actually have a greasy residue inside the key mounts and spring areas. I have come across the term, "greased," before in reference to these Ambras which is why I used it. I have no idea if it really is petroleum based grease, but there is a barely perceptible sheen there that isn't on my other Model Ms. This site claims the grease reduced volume:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Enhanced_Keyboard


Offline ThoughtArtist

  • Posts: 310
  • Location: A climate-controlled testing facility
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #62 on: Sat, 14 May 2016, 20:00:01 »

All Ambras aren't greased and all greased M's aren't Ambras.  Some of them do have that font on the keys that's a bit different from standard.


I just took a spin through the Model M wikipedia list and I don't see any mention of the "grease mod" under "features" so I am wondering whether the greased ones were a different model, or whether standard production Ms just sometimes received the grease, say, as an option that somebody special-ordered?

They were referred to as "soft touch".    For example: http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/model-m-gallery/1994-ibm-model-m-soft-touch-8184692/

That's just so wrong. Reminds me of the guy on youtube who poured lube in his Cherry MX Blues to silence them.

Offline ThoughtArtist

  • Posts: 310
  • Location: A climate-controlled testing facility
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 14 May 2016, 20:09:18 »

All Ambras aren't greased and all greased M's aren't Ambras.  Some of them do have that font on the keys that's a bit different from standard.


I just took a spin through the Model M wikipedia list and I don't see any mention of the "grease mod" under "features" so I am wondering whether the greased ones were a different model, or whether standard production Ms just sometimes received the grease, say, as an option that somebody special-ordered?

They were referred to as "soft touch".    For example: http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/model-m-gallery/1994-ibm-model-m-soft-touch-8184692/

That's just so wrong. Reminds me of the guy on youtube who poured lube in his Cherry MX Blues to silence them.

Oh I just noticed it has a speaker! Someone's gotta post of video of that one!

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #64 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 02:55:02 »
Wow, this has gotten a lot of play.

I've realized that 1391406's handle is the p/n of a UK 102-key Model M. Harking back to my sportscar analogy, British sportscars generally have the poorest service records; thus they could be considered the Unicomps of the sportscar world. They're still worth having—they're just going to be a bit more clanky.
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 13:28:08 »
Wow, this has gotten a lot of play.

I've realized that 1391406's handle is the p/n of a UK 102-key Model M. Harking back to my sportscar analogy, British sportscars generally have the poorest service records; thus they could be considered the Unicomps of the sportscar world. They're still worth having—they're just going to be a bit more clanky.

My original choice of moniker, 1391401, was taken. :(

I think Unicomp's are worth having. I just feel IBM manufactured Model M's are more desirable. The Unicomp typing experience is, for all intents and purposes, practically indistinguishable from IBM predecessors. The issues I have with them are primarily qualitative, and quality is important to me.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #66 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 14:06:52 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #67 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 14:59:55 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p

What's the complaint? I've owned both and both cases are perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. The 122-key Model F is known to be a bit more fragile, however.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 May 2016, 15:01:39 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 15:04:26 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p

What's the complaint? I've owned both and both cases are perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. The 122-key Model F is known to be a bit more fragile, however.
Namely that the AT case is thinner than the XT. :P
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #69 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 15:51:21 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p

What's the complaint? I've owned both and both cases are perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. The 122-key Model F is known to be a bit more fragile, however.
Namely that the AT case is thinner than the XT. :P

I haven't seen any such complaints. The difference between the two is that the bottom of the XT case is metal.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #70 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 16:03:55 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p

What's the complaint? I've owned both and both cases are perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. The 122-key Model F is known to be a bit more fragile, however.
Namely that the AT case is thinner than the XT. :P

I haven't seen any such complaints. The difference between the two is that the bottom of the XT case is metal.
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #71 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 16:12:08 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p

What's the complaint? I've owned both and both cases are perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. The 122-key Model F is known to be a bit more fragile, however.
Namely that the AT case is thinner than the XT. :P

I haven't seen any such complaints. The difference between the two is that the bottom of the XT case is metal.
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.

If there haven't been any complaints then why did you say, "And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT"? Did you mean, "yet we no hear of complaining"?
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 17:43:48 »
The complaint that I have heard (and made!) repeatedly is that the AT case, rather than having a plastic top shell and a metal bottom pan, is all-plastic (the old brittle F plastic rather than the newer, softer, tougher M plastic) and the tabs must be "cracked" apart at the front to open it up. I have never broken one yet, but it is scary and unnerving every time I do it.

"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 19:14:19 »
The complaint that I have heard (and made!) repeatedly is that the AT case, rather than having a plastic top shell and a metal bottom pan, is all-plastic (the old brittle F plastic rather than the newer, softer, tougher M plastic) and the tabs must be "cracked" apart at the front to open it up. I have never broken one yet, but it is scary and unnerving every time I do it.

This is the complaint I'm familiar with, as well.

Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 19:39:45 »
And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT.   Perhaps the case isn't as important as many of us make it out to be.  :p

What's the complaint? I've owned both and both cases are perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. The 122-key Model F is known to be a bit more fragile, however.
Namely that the AT case is thinner than the XT. :P

I haven't seen any such complaints. The difference between the two is that the bottom of the XT case is metal.
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.

If there haven't been any complaints then why did you say, "And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT"? Did you mean, "yet we no hear of complaining"?

I intended "do so often".  Strange omission there :p
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 19:41:51 »
The complaint that I have heard (and made!) repeatedly is that the AT case, rather than having a plastic top shell and a metal bottom pan, is all-plastic (the old brittle F plastic rather than the newer, softer, tougher M plastic) and the tabs must be "cracked" apart at the front to open it up. I have never broken one yet, but it is scary and unnerving every time I do it.

This is the complaint I'm familiar with, as well.

Ditto.  That first time cracking open an AT I was certain I broke something.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 20:04:20 »
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.

If there haven't been any complaints then why did you say, "And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT"? Did you mean, "yet we no hear of complaining"?

I intended "do so often".  Strange omission there :p

On the one hand you're saying, "There have not been such complaints".

On the other hand you're saying, "... we do so often hear of complaining ...".

Which is it?
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 20:26:37 »
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.

If there haven't been any complaints then why did you say, "And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT"? Did you mean, "yet we no hear of complaining"?

I intended "do so often".  Strange omission there :p

On the one hand you're saying, "There have not been such complaints".

On the other hand you're saying, "... we do so often hear of complaining ...".

Which is it?
It's a sarcastic statement.  Or it may have been something else I was trying to type at 100 wpm on an iPhone.
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 20:59:42 »

I was trying to type at 100 wpm on an iPhone.


Huh? Get a keyboard you moron!
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 22:59:20 »

I was trying to type at 100 wpm on an iPhone.


Huh? Get a keyboard you moron!
As much as I love my F XT, I can't make it run on an iPhone :P
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #80 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 23:26:44 »
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.

If there haven't been any complaints then why did you say, "And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT"? Did you mean, "yet we no hear of complaining"?

I intended "do so often".  Strange omission there :p

On the one hand you're saying, "There have not been such complaints".

On the other hand you're saying, "... we do so often hear of complaining ...".

Which is it?
It's a sarcastic statement.  Or it may have been something else I was trying to type at 100 wpm on an iPhone.

The bottom line is, no one's complaining about the thickness of AT vs XT cases, so what was your point?
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #81 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 23:55:15 »
This is just too much!  It's like deja-vu all over again.  I'm happy with my IBM 1392595.  So there!

Offline y11971alex

  • Posts: 402
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • Looking for Toronto meetup
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 01:39:51 »
But that's the point.  There have not been such complaints, even though the plastic part of the XT case is thicker than the AT case.

If there haven't been any complaints then why did you say, "And yet we so hear of complaining about the thin case of the Model F AT compared to the XT"? Did you mean, "yet we no hear of complaining"?

I intended "do so often".  Strange omission there :p

On the one hand you're saying, "There have not been such complaints".

On the other hand you're saying, "... we do so often hear of complaining ...".

Which is it?
It's a sarcastic statement.  Or it may have been something else I was trying to type at 100 wpm on an iPhone.

The bottom line is, no one's complaining about the thickness of AT vs XT cases, so what was your point?

The point was that, while we seem to make a great deal off the mounding perfections of the Unicomp Ms, we don't seem to care about the massively thinned-down case of the AT, even though a thin case is usually a bad thing, like it is on a Unicomp M.
Keyboards owned: IBM Selectric | 3278 | 3101 | 5251 | Model F XT | AT | 122 (6110344) | Model M 1390120 | 1390131 | 1391472 | 1392464 (DisplayWriter SSK) | 1395100 (SSK) | Honeywell RD IBM 09F4230 | Leading Edge DC-2014 (Blue Alps) | Chicony 5891 (Monterey Blue) | E&E-101 (KPT Blue) | BTC 5100 | 5100C | 5369 | DEC VT100 (Hi-tek Linear) | Burroughs TP109 (Hall) | Realforce 87 (55g)

Keyboards wanted: IBM Model F 104 (Unsaver) | Model M 1391401

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 07:52:55 »

As much as I love my F XT, I can't make it run on an iPhone


You know, actually, way back when I first got started in the hobby, maybe 6 years ago, I bought an F XT (because they were dirt cheap back then and everybody seemed to agree that they had the very best feel) and a Hagstrom (which was a little-known specialty item).

After using it for a while and finding the layout impossible, I put it up on ebay and sold it for a little over $100 within a few days (tidy profit - the keyboard shipped was $30 or less and the Hagstrom shipped was about $50) to an Apple employee in California who actually was using it on an iPhone at work and wrote me later to tell me how much he liked it. I have no idea about the details or what kind of plugs or adapters might have been involved.

Funny story: Back then, Hagstroms were sold "naked" so I had built it into a small plastic Tupperware-like box with the original DIN cable going in and USB coming out. Ripster saw the ebay listing and posted it here with a "Ha Ha - Look at this ghetto rig!" type of message. I took no offense and thought it was funny.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 07:59:53 »
The point was that, while we seem to make a great deal off the mounding perfections of the Unicomp Ms, we don't seem to care about the massively thinned-down case of the AT, even though a thin case is usually a bad thing, like it is on a Unicomp M.

This is a very odd viewpoint.   There's no creak or flex in an AT case, and you'd be hard off to tell the different between it and an XT case without looking at the bottom (minus the front seam).
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 08:13:39 »

There's no creak or flex in an AT case


Endoskeleton  vs  exoskeleton
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 10:53:40 »
The point was that, while we seem to make a great deal off the mounding perfections of the Unicomp Ms, we don't seem to care about the massively thinned-down case of the AT, even though a thin case is usually a bad thing, like it is on a Unicomp M.

Because no one was talking about the Model F. The discussion was regarding two variants of the Model M. You're referring to a completely different model.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 08:58:39 »
1391406: It's all semantics.

If language is going to have meaning then the words we use should conform to their definitions.

Unfortunately, we live in a world that can't appreciate such subtle distinctions. They're too busy listening to music where every other word is "f*&k" or "n@!&#r".


I meant what I meant, and you meant what you meant. I just didn't want you telling me what I meant.

Again, I know what you meant. My reply was an expression of disagreement.

By the same token, you should feel free to disagree with what you don't agree with, and I likewise. Maybe you already do.


IMHO, IBMs and Unicomps are both great, in different ways.

Which different ways are you referring to? The difference in feel is negligible, and soundwise, Unicomp Model M's lack the hollow metallic pinging that IBM manufactured Model M's are known for. The primary differences between the two are qualitative.

On the touch issue, I must disagree. I'm typing on a 1986 "barcode" Model M 1390131, and it feels majorly different not only from my Unicomp Ultra Classic, but from my '90s IBM and Lexmark M's. Perhaps one must go back far enough in the IBM pantheon (all the gods of one's religion) to experience this. It exists, however, and you deny it at your own peril.

On the sound issue, I must agree. Unicomps lack the ping. Then on the other hand, maybe we just need to get out more.


I'm quite pleased to have one of Anyway, pick over details like this as long as you wish... I'm just going to enjoy what I've got.

What you like is undoubtedly your business. My sole contention is that Unicomp Model M's are qualitatively inferior to IBM manufactured Model M's. To what degree the qualitative differences have relevance for you or anyone else is of no consequence to me.

Tell me, dude, do you usually expend this much energy on things you don't care about? This seems very familiar... Ah! It's what happens when you get married.

Having said all this, I have no intention of challenging anyone's position on the autism spectrum—I'm just to the right of indigo myself—which I suspect is a requirement of agonizing to this degree over things composed of small, precisely-aligned objects.
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 12:38:49 »
On the touch issue, I must disagree. I'm typing on a 1986 "barcode" Model M 1390131, and it feels majorly different not only from my Unicomp Ultra Classic

In what regard?
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline aptivaboy

  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Sunny SoCal
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #89 on: Mon, 23 May 2016, 16:36:04 »
Speaking only for myself, my born-on September 3rd, 1987, Model M feels more "solid" on the keystroke. By that, I know precisely whether I hit the right key or not, and whether or not I've committed a mistyping. It has more a light click to the sound, while the Unicomp has a "thunk" sound, more hollow and loud. The IBM's sound is more of clicky ping, in contrast.

In terms of key pressure, my hands do get tired from the Unicomp after an hour or so of continual typing. Not so, for the IBM, as the key pressure is less.

Basically, I type most accurately on either IBM board, the stock Model M or the Ambra which sounds and feels more different still, than on the Unicomp. Part of that is caused by the Unicomp's trackpoint sticking up too high an interfering with my fingers, admittedly. I'm toying with the idea of filing it down.

Now, having said all of this, the Unicomp is still miles better than any crappy rubber dome board, and I prefer typing on it over pretty much anything else except my two IBM boards. I'm still planning a 122 key special order board from them this summer as soon as I can get the fundage.



Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 23 May 2016, 23:37:20 »
Speaking only for myself, my born-on September 3rd, 1987, Model M feels more "solid" on the keystroke. By that, I know precisely whether I hit the right key or not, and whether or not I've committed a mistyping. It has more a light click to the sound, while the Unicomp has a "thunk" sound, more hollow and loud. The IBM's sound is more of clicky ping, in contrast.

In terms of key pressure, my hands do get tired from the Unicomp after an hour or so of continual typing. Not so, for the IBM, as the key pressure is less.

Basically, I type most accurately on either IBM board, the stock Model M or the Ambra which sounds and feels more different still, than on the Unicomp. Part of that is caused by the Unicomp's trackpoint sticking up too high an interfering with my fingers, admittedly. I'm toying with the idea of filing it down.

Now, having said all of this, the Unicomp is still miles better than any crappy rubber dome board, and I prefer typing on it over pretty much anything else except my two IBM boards. I'm still planning a 122 key special order board from them this summer as soon as I can get the fundage.

Unicomp's no doubt do sound different, and it's a given that there are differences in key weighting between IBM's made within the same year even. That's not news. For example, Model M's with very little use typically feel firmer. However, weighting variances aside, key feel isn't drastically different unless you've got a board ailing with a lot of broken rivets(mushy, weak click).
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 May 2016, 23:39:06 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #91 on: Fri, 10 June 2016, 01:30:04 »
On the touch issue, I must disagree. I'm typing on a 1986 "barcode" Model M 1390131, and it feels majorly different not only from my Unicomp Ultra Classic...

In what regard?

In both feel and sound.

The 131's heavy build makes it feels completely stable—it's easy to type on, but the KB itself is like a rock—and it's much quieter.

Because Unicomps are built so much lighter and thinner and have a looser action, they make a racket by comparison. If necessary, I can slow down and type pretty quietly on a '131; there's no way I can do that on a Unicomp.

Clickiness/clackiness isn't a bad thing, of course. Most of us vintage KB-heads feel the same way about it that people into high-performance cars feel about loud, gutsy-sounding engines: A KB's sound is part of the experience of using it, and can be quite fun—as long as you're not driving anyone crazy who doesn't want to hear it (another thing they have in common with hot cars).

Ultimately we're talking about two great typing machines. It's like having two girlfriends: one who's solid and reliable, and one who's wacky and spontaneous. When you get tired of being with one of them, you can call up the other. Hmm, does this sound a bit 20th-century? Sorry.  :?)

Speaking only for myself, my born-on September 3rd, 1987, Model M feels more "solid" on the keystroke. By that, I know precisely whether I hit the right key or not, and whether or not I've committed a mistyping. It has more a light click to the sound, while the Unicomp has a "thunk" sound, more hollow and loud. The IBM's sound is more of clicky ping, in contrast.

That's how I'd describe them too.

In terms of key pressure, my hands do get tired from the Unicomp after an hour or so of continual typing. Not so, for the IBM, as the key pressure is less.

I think their pressures are about the same, but the Unicomp's keys seem to travel farther and have a bit more lateral movement, which would require somewhat more effort. And yet, there's a charm to this less-precise feel... If you feel like using a clacky KB, you can really use one!

Now, having said all of this, the Unicomp is still miles better than any crappy rubber dome board, and I prefer typing on it over pretty much anything else except my two IBM boards. I'm still planning a 122 key special order board from them this summer as soon as I can get the fundage.

I doubt anyone could build a board to IBM's first-generation specs and sell it for less than $400 or so, which clearly wouldn't be very profitable—especially when you can get an original, clean it up, and have one that looks and works like it just came off the line.

Despite my geeky comparisons, I have nothing but praise for Unicomp. When you realize they're producing excellent BS boards comparable to 3rd/4th-gen Lexmarks, selling them for under $90, and even offering customization options, we really must admire them and be grateful they're around.
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #92 on: Fri, 10 June 2016, 06:51:56 »
I just bought a 2001 Unicomp from a Geekhacker and I and amazed at how good it feels and sounds.

I have not used any of my other Ms in months, but this one is solid, well-build, and with excellent keycap quality.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #93 on: Fri, 10 June 2016, 09:49:13 »
On the touch issue, I must disagree. I'm typing on a 1986 "barcode" Model M 1390131, and it feels majorly different not only from my Unicomp Ultra Classic...

In what regard?

In both feel and sound.

The 131's heavy build makes it feels completely stable—it's easy to type on, but the KB itself is like a rock—and it's much quieter.

Because Unicomps are built so much lighter and thinner and have a looser action, they make a racket by comparison. If necessary, I can slow down and type pretty quietly on a '131; there's no way I can do that on a Unicomp.

Clickiness/clackiness isn't a bad thing, of course. Most of us vintage KB-heads feel the same way about it that people into high-performance cars feel about loud, gutsy-sounding engines: A KB's sound is part of the experience of using it, and can be quite fun—as long as you're not driving anyone crazy who doesn't want to hear it (another thing they have in common with hot cars).

Well, but the issue was regarding "touch" (key feel), and specifically the typing experience. Unicomp's undoubtedly do sound different than IBM manufactured Model M's. I've mentioned this on numerous occasions, and Unicomp's are lighter, too. There are undoubtedly other attributes that are different, but that's another story. That said, one difference in feel between my Unicomp and other Model M's is the action. My Unicomp is undoubtedly more firm and feels a bit tighter. Not a drastic difference, but it's there. I can see how someone would become more fatigued using it over an older Model M whose springs have had time to wear in. But that's unsurprising given the varying condition of rivets and springs in older Model M's. I'm just saying, in my opinion, the differences in key feel aren't generally so drastic that the average user would give it much, if any, thought. I've rarely seen a review (and I've read and watched many) in which the reviewer noted a difference in feel. Look up reviews and you'll find that most people generally don't make any substantial distinction in key feel at all.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #94 on: Fri, 10 June 2016, 09:52:08 »
I just bought a 2001 Unicomp from a Geekhacker and I and amazed at how good it feels and sounds.

Just out of curiosity, how many Unicomp's do you own?
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6471
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #95 on: Fri, 10 June 2016, 17:50:59 »

Just out of curiosity, how many Unicomp's do you own?


All these competing parallel threads.

I had maybe 3 Unicomps total during a period 3-5 years ago which I sold each within a month or less of buying them, and never used any for more than a couple of days at most.

I bought this one because it was an "early" 103-key style for a good price and I wanted that particular one.
I would have preferred a native USB cable but the fixed PS/2 was fine to get the earlier vintage.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #96 on: Fri, 10 June 2016, 21:28:46 »

Just out of curiosity, how many Unicomp's do you own?


All these competing parallel threads.

I had maybe 3 Unicomps total during a period 3-5 years ago which I sold each within a month or less of buying them, and never used any for more than a couple of days at most.

I bought this one because it was an "early" 103-key style for a good price and I wanted that particular one.
I would have preferred a native USB cable but the fixed PS/2 was fine to get the earlier vintage.

How can a company compete with itself?  Just ask the experts!

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #97 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 05:32:32 »
I just bought a 2001 Unicomp from a Geekhacker and I and amazed at how good it feels and sounds...I have not used any of my other Ms in months, but this one is solid, well-build, and with excellent keycap quality.

What do you mean by keycap "quality"? Are you one of these peeps who measure their thickness—the caps's, that is, not your own—to formulate theories of why they feel different? I still don't see how anyone could "feel" the thickness of a cap on a button, so I can only assume that these measurements exploit the power of suggestion. Maybe you mean something else, though.

The only difference I've noticed between Unicomp's caps and IBM/Lexmark's is that Unicomp, for some unfathomable reason, replaced IBM's beautifully implemented Helvetica with a smaller, narrower font—and, ever more mysteriously, they did it on only some keys:


139735-0


139737-1


It looks that way to me anyway. Maybe they've just changed some of them more than others. It's strikingly inconsistent, anyway, compared to IBM. And cheaper-looking. Why change such a good thing at all?


Well, but the issue was regarding "touch" (key feel), and specifically the typing experience. Unicomp's undoubtedly do sound different than IBM manufactured Model M's. I've mentioned this on numerous occasions, and Unicomp's are lighter, too. There are undoubtedly other attributes that are different, but that's another story. That said, one difference in feel between my Unicomp and other Model M's is the action. My Unicomp is undoubtedly more firm and feels a bit tighter...

The semantics get tricky—but to me, 1st-gen M's (1390120, 1390131), in good original or restored shape, feel "tighter" in the precision of their action. I don't feel like I'm wasting any time or effort on them. Click, click, click. On a Unicomp, I feel a certain amount of my energy's spent dealing with the action's extraneous movement. I wouldn't call it "tighter" or "firmer", just more labor-absorbing for its relative lack of precision.

I can see how someone would become more fatigued using it over an older Model M whose springs have had time to wear in. But that's unsurprising given the varying condition of rivets and springs in older Model M's...

Well, that's the wild card. Most Unicomps, even those made 10–15 years ago, have been used only casually, by clicky-keyboard fans. Whereas most IBMs have been used full-time, in business environments, often by professional typists, and for as much as 30 years longer. So generally they're not going to be in the same kind of shape, even if they started out better.

But that's what's particularly remarkable about 1st-gen M's. Even though they're the oldest ones, and have presumably been used the most (on average), I have yet to encounter a well-maintained 1st-gen M that didn't feel like a considerably more efficient typing machine than a Unicomp. They must've been made that much better—than Unicomps, and than subsequent M's. I've observed this time and time again, or I wouldn't be gabbing about it like this here.

I'm just saying, in my opinion, the differences in key feel aren't generally so drastic that the average user would give it much, if any, thought. I've rarely seen a review (and I've read and watched many) in which the reviewer noted a difference in feel. Look up reviews and you'll find that most people generally don't make any substantial distinction in key feel at all.

Does that mean there isn't any? Or does it mean that we, the people to whom MKs (and BS MKs in particular) are so important, have used so many more of them, and paid so much more attention to them, that we can appreciate what others can't—even someone who writes hardware reviews?

That's how it is in any field with a wide spectrum of experience and knowledge. Subtleties are lost on those without the focused, personal interest necessary to learn to perceive and appreciate them.

And I'm not just saying this because I live in the suburbs and don't have much else to do. I've also been drinking beer, which is quite time-consuming, not to mention beer-consuming.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 June 2016, 05:35:50 by ander »
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg

Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #98 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 11:26:04 »
Well, but the issue was regarding "touch" (key feel), and specifically the typing experience. Unicomp's undoubtedly do sound different than IBM manufactured Model M's. I've mentioned this on numerous occasions, and Unicomp's are lighter, too. There are undoubtedly other attributes that are different, but that's another story. That said, one difference in feel between my Unicomp and other Model M's is the action. My Unicomp is undoubtedly more firm and feels a bit tighter...

The semantics get tricky—but to me, 1st-gen M's (1390120, 1390131), in good original or restored shape, feel "tighter" in the precision of their action. I don't feel like I'm wasting any time or effort on them. Click, click, click. On a Unicomp, I feel a certain amount of my energy's spent dealing with the action's extraneous movement. I wouldn't call it "tighter" or "firmer", just more labor-absorbing for its relative lack of precision.

It's a matter of degrees. While I don't question your perception here, I think for most users such subtle distinctions would be considered negligible to the point of irrelevance.

I can see how someone would become more fatigued using it over an older Model M whose springs have had time to wear in. But that's unsurprising given the varying condition of rivets and springs in older Model M's...

Well, that's the wild card. Most Unicomps, even those made 10–15 years ago, have been used only casually, by clicky-keyboard fans. Whereas most IBMs have been used full-time, in business environments, often by professional typists, and for as much as 30 years longer. So generally they're not going to be in the same kind of shape, even if they started out better.

But that's what's particularly remarkable about 1st-gen M's. Even though they're the oldest ones, and have presumably been used the most (on average), I have yet to encounter a well-maintained 1st-gen M that didn't feel like a considerably more efficient typing machine than a Unicomp. They must've been made that much better—than Unicomps, and than subsequent M's. I've observed this time and time again, or I wouldn't be gabbing about it like this here.

That's possible, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that's true, though it could also just be coincidence. I have a couple of 1391401's from '87 that have a decidedly more refined and crisp click than some of my boards from '90 - '91. My presumption is that the '87s were simply used less. While the differences are apparent to me, they'd likely be lost on the average user, in my opinion.

I'm just saying, in my opinion, the differences in key feel aren't generally so drastic that the average user would give it much, if any, thought. I've rarely seen a review (and I've read and watched many) in which the reviewer noted a difference in feel. Look up reviews and you'll find that most people generally don't make any substantial distinction in key feel at all.

Does that mean there isn't any? Or does it mean that we, the people to whom MKs (and BS MKs in particular) are so important, have used so many more of them, and paid so much more attention to them, that we can appreciate what others can't—even someone who writes hardware reviews?

Undoubtedly the distinctions are there, though as with many things, sometimes only an aficionado would notice.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline ander

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • I type, therefore I am
Re: A few decent Model M deals
« Reply #99 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 22:15:53 »
That's us!  ;?)
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg