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Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.

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Grim Fandango:
Thanks for the support!


--- Quote from: Skull_Angel on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:31:44 ---I was wondering why the last thread got locked; glad to see you're expanding it!

I've also heard some people toss around rumors of the S9808 (used in Logitech's new S labeled laser mice) having no acceleration; is anyone able to confirm or deny that? I haven't be able to fish up any conclusive info on the matter, but am rather pessimistic about it.

--- End quote ---

I think every mouse enthusiast is always looking to check whether the newest laser sensors from Avago still suffer from acceleration. This is the first time I hear that the s9808 does not suffer from acceleration. A quick google search shows me that there are a hand full of people making that claim, but this is not backed up anywhere in any sort of test, or with any sort of theoretical explanation of how the sensor avoids the acceleration problems present in the rest of the series. I believe that possibly this is due to a misinterpretation of Takasta's review of the new Logitech "S" series mice on OCN, where he addresses and applauds the sensor performance of the Avago S9808, but specifically does not test for acceleration.

Others have found that the acceleration is present in all the Avago 9500-98XX sensors to date. Skylit, one of the more knowledgeable mouse experts at OCN maintains that all cmos based sensors have an inherent form of acceleration. Though I will not pretend to know exactly how that works, as I usually go by testing results. There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence of people claiming the G500s still has acceleration, though I never put too much stock into that. Consensus is still that the Avago 98XX series of sensors have acceleration, and I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise. But it is something that is worth keeping an eye on as the implementation of laser sensors progresses.


--- Quote from: davkol on Mon, 24 March 2014, 10:46:06 ---I've just noticed you discuss CM Storm Spawn's firmware issues above. Have you taken the latest update into account? Speaking of that (the spawn has been discontinued in Europe due to bad reputation probably caused by the firmware), do you plan to mention availability of each mouse?

--- End quote ---

I followed the discussion up to v102 and am aware of the release of the v201 firmware, which seems to be some kind of compromise of the characteristics of earlier firmware versions. The discussion of performance of any specific firmware is beyond the depth of the guide (though if a version is released that addresses any issue, it would have to of course be pointed out), and not something I am keen on following. The indication that firmware matters and there are different versions which differ in performance still describes the firmware situation of the CM Storm Spawn.

I have thought about adding availability in some way. But this might not be as straightforward as it might appear. Availability is different in many different regions (for example, not just Europe, but different parts of Europe), and it is hard to figure out the availability of some products in some regions (Asia). Furthermore, there are a lot of discontinued products that are still widely available outside of the traditional retail channels (for example WMO and previous version of deathadders on Ebay as well as a few other places), and in practice availability is often dependent on someone's willingness to import, which could in turn be dependent on how their country's customs deals with importing these kinds of things. Because of all this I find it hard to offer accurate, up to date, and reliable information regarding availability, and feel that people are probably better off checking the availability in their region themselves. What I could do however is add for each mouse whether they are still in production, and if not, whether I am aware if they are still sold anywhere.

protti:
Wow, what a valuable resource. I'm new here (only been a member for a few days - lurked for a few months prior), and one of the reasons I took the leap and made an account was for insight like this - there seem to be quite a few dedicated & just generally knowledgeable . It wasn't just for discussing and planning my next keyboard, but also because I'm in dire need of a new mouse and have no clue what the landscape is like anymore since it's been 5 years since my last purchase.

Need to buy two mice...the one I prefer will be the primary gaming mouse. Have used only the SteelSeries Xai since 2009 (bought two of them a few weeks before the Sensei came out), before that I used the Logitech G5 & mx518.

- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

I know I have plenty of other questions that will resurface in my mind here shortly.  Thanks again for your help.

Grim Fandango:

--- Quote from: protti on Wed, 26 March 2014, 05:56:45 ---Wow, what a valuable resource. I'm new here (only been a member for a few days - lurked for a few months prior), and one of the reasons I took the leap and made an account was for insight like this - there seem to be quite a few dedicated & just generally knowledgeable . It wasn't just for discussing and planning my next keyboard, but also because I'm in dire need of a new mouse and have no clue what the landscape is like anymore since it's been 5 years since my last purchase.

Need to buy two mice...the one I prefer will be the primary gaming mouse. Have used only the SteelSeries Xai since 2009 (bought two of them a few weeks before the Sensei came out), before that I used the Logitech G5 & mx518.

- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

I know I have plenty of other questions that will resurface in my mind here shortly.  Thanks again for your help.

--- End quote ---

First of all welcome to Geekhack !

Second, thanks for your kind words about the guide. I hope to improve and expand it over time.

Third, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Regarding your first question, the only answer I can give is that there is really no general rule about which kind of mice (shape and size) work best for these kind of games. To take the competitive scene as an example, we have seen plenty of players who use larger mice, and plenty of players who use smaller mice. We have even seen a lot of players switch between completely different style mice. 2 examples that you know are probably Neo and SpawN. Both of them switched styles of mice. Spawn had used the WMO (small, ambidextrous, super light) and the deathadder (large, ergonomic, reasonably heavy). Another example are NIP. You can find the hardware they use on their website. It was recently updated and a couple of their members now play with the Rival (large, ergonomic, heavy) where they previously used mice like the Kinzu ( I think GeT_RiGhT and F0rest did, though I do not know exactly by heart). I am telling you all this not because I believe that people should do whatever the "pro's" do (since their choice is heavily influenced by sponsorship), but just to indicate that very different styles of mice can compete at the highest level, which probably means you are free to choose whatever you prefer. I should also point out (to be fair) that while different styles of mice are used, there is a slight trend in the competitive scene of players favoring smaller, lighter mice.

To answer the second question, the other thing you should be looking for (outside of shape, size etc.) is performance. What does performance mean when it comes to mice sensors? The answer to that question is pretty much this entire guide. I hope that it will give you a good starting point to find out what kind of characteristics are desirable in a mouse, what the things are that you would probably want to avoid, and which mice have a sensor that performs well. People give a lot of attention to acceleration and prediction, and they are generally detested, but there are other aspects of tracking that are just as important. Of course, personal preference and the way a mouse simply feels in your hand plays a large role too that is not to be ignored.

mr2009:
Nice article. Madcatz R.A.T.3 is using ZHIJ switches for left and right button.

protti:

--- Quote from: Grim Fandango on Wed, 26 March 2014, 17:02:53 ---
First of all welcome to Geekhack !

Second, thanks for your kind words about the guide. I hope to improve and expand it over time.

Third, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Regarding your first question, the only answer I can give is that there is really no general rule about which kind of mice (shape and size) work best for these kind of games. To take the competitive scene as an example, we have seen plenty of players who use larger mice, and plenty of players who use smaller mice. We have even seen a lot of players switch between completely different style mice. 2 examples that you know are probably Neo and SpawN. Both of them switched styles of mice. Spawn had used the WMO (small, ambidextrous, super light) and the deathadder (large, ergonomic, reasonably heavy). Another example are NIP. You can find the hardware they use on their website. It was recently updated and a couple of their members now play with the Rival (large, ergonomic, heavy) where they previously used mice like the Kinzu ( I think GeT_RiGhT and F0rest did, though I do not know exactly by heart). I am telling you all this not because I believe that people should do whatever the "pro's" do (since their choice is heavily influenced by sponsorship), but just to indicate that very different styles of mice can compete at the highest level, which probably means you are free to choose whatever you prefer. I should also point out (to be fair) that while different styles of mice are used, there is a slight trend in the competitive scene of players favoring smaller, lighter mice.

To answer the second question, the other thing you should be looking for (outside of shape, size etc.) is performance. What does performance mean when it comes to mice sensors? The answer to that question is pretty much this entire guide. I hope that it will give you a good starting point to find out what kind of characteristics are desirable in a mouse, what the things are that you would probably want to avoid, and which mice have a sensor that performs well. People give a lot of attention to acceleration and prediction, and they are generally detested, but there are other aspects of tracking that are just as important. Of course, personal preference and the way a mouse simply feels in your hand plays a large role too that is not to be ignored.

--- End quote ---

Appreciate the response Grim - I have to admit I felt awkward even asking my first question about which 2 or 3 mice might work best for twitch-based FPS games because that question comes up a lot from 14 year old gamers that thing it's as simple or black and white as that. Hopefully you understood that I really meant given your knowledge of mice and the need for quickness/precision over all else (in FPS) which mice MIGHT work best on paper in that situation.

So thanks for answering that because it was a tough question haha.

Interesting points about SpawN/Neo switching from two different styles. I think that's important to note...but also makes me wonder if it's because they are two of the greatest gamers ever that they were able to adjust to two different types of mouse, or if it really doesn't make a huge difference.

As for my decision, I'm now stuck between the SteelSeries Rival, Roccat Kone Pure & Zowie FK. The Rival really only because I'm comfortable with the products made by this brand and I've had the chance to use it for a few minutes. The Kone Pure really just a gut feeling: I feel from the pictures I like  the angles and would likely enjoy the feel. The Zowie FK i've also used for a few minutes of aim mapping and I enjoyed it *seriously a few minutes though means almost nothing*

I'll probably spend another day weighing options and doing a bit more research before just pulling the trigger on something - it's getting to the point where my brain is just fried. Maybe I'll buy 2.

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