You could derive keyboard size from the industry standard for key spacing: ~19 mm. AFAIK only microTron and Esrille offer something smaller (as far as ergonomic keyboards go).Thanks very much for the reply, that's exactly what I was after - although the only diagrams there that match the current/EZ layout don't have dimensions given, so I do hope they're to-scale.
Anyway, exact dimensions of the ErgoDox [layout] are shown in this older thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60965.0). Thus, you can print out the layout and try it for yourself. I think my hands are about the same size as yours, except with shorter fingers, and I quite like my ErgoDox, although it's far from perfect.
The dox thumb cluster issue is over stated.Thanks for the input, but given the price of either keyboard I really can't afford to take a punt without at least trying a mockup first.
It will feel different than the normal reach when you first start using the dox. because the motion is not the same one you'd use for space bar now,
But you get used to it quite quickly if you actually USE the dox. .
Thanks for the input, but given the price of either keyboard I really can't afford to take a punt without at least trying a mockup first.
____ The ergodox is the only platform out right now that can be modified to match your neutral WRIST angle.. greatly enhancing typing comfort..Doesn't any fully split keyboard allow that? And there are some fully split keyboards on the market. Although all of them are probably row staggered without thumb clusters. Therefore they are rather inferior from my point of view.
*snip*What an odd response.
*snip*What an odd response.
There is indeed a way to mock up, as the height of keys is known, the keyboard is all on one plane, and a layout diagram showing angles and placements was linked above :)
I'm uncertain whether the body of your post was intended to be derogatory, but I shall assume otherwise and assure you that I do, indeed, use a keyboard to type on, and do, indeed, value ergonomics in a keyboard, as I have mentioned in the OP. The rest of your comments are also somewhat odd, as the Ergodox is certainly not the only keyboard on which wrist angle can be modified, costs significantly more than $200, and a blanket statement that 'the Ergodox is better for all situations' is self-evidently subjective and incapable of being supported.
Further, unless I am misinterpreting your post, I find your comment that unless I am prepared to spend $500 on a keyboard I might find uncomfortable I should not be spending any money at all on a new keyboard and should 'monitor my other life priorities' to be slightly insulting and very odd indeed. I am attempting to make sure I do as much research as possible in order to ensure that I get something that is suitable for me. You may be willing (and able) to spend large amounts on the off-chance that something works for you, but I am not.
He prefers flat keyboards.
LIES... Tp4 mains ergodox 3 years running..And???Show Image(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/bsod-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862493)
LIES... Tp4 mains ergodox 3 years running..And???Show Image(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/bsod-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862493)
Ergodox is a flat keyboard! It is not contoured. It's flat. It is also split so you can separate and tilt halves individually whatever way you want. But each half stays flat.
Make your mock up and you will get a little better idea if it suits you. But you will not know definitely without typing on it for a few weeks. Ergodox has significantly different layout and especially thumb clusters that you probably will need about a week or two of adjustement / learning time. That is probably what tp4tissue wanted to tell you. That mock up may not be enough to know for sure. You may need actual typing.Oh, I'm fully prepared for learning time :) The main issue is that I have experienced strain with thumb-centric designs before, am aware that the thumb cluster distance on the EZ is an issue for others, and want to get a sense of whether the distances involved are going to require me to make an uncomfortable stretch. Making a mockup will certainly tell me where my thumbs naturally rest in relation to the thumb cluster, and thus answer this question with a reasonable degree of certainty.
Ergodox is a very nice keyboard. I would probably have one too if I would not consider the flat (i.e. not like on Kinesis/Maltron) bottom row a big problem. Other rows can be flat. I do not care that much about them. Although I prefer them curved too. But the flat bottom row is pretty much useless. I also think that thumb cluster is a bit too far but that is a minor thing too.Having only used 'flat' (in the sense of all in one plane) keyboards before, although always tented, this is probably not going to be an issue for me.
*snip*If you have any specific comments to make in relation to either the KB M01 or the ED EZ that may assist me to work out which would be the most suitable for my particular needs, taking into account the large amount of information I have tried to provide in the OP, the I would love to hear from you. If you have used yours for three years then you would surely have a lot of input to offer, and I would like to benefit from it :)
Keep in mind.. The ergodox is not actually very ergonomic without doing alot of tweaking..If I was to purchase either, I would certainly be tenting and with the split halves positioned at a comfortable distance. The ED bundle I am contemplating has the wrist rest and tenting kit, while the KB M01 apparently includes the tenting stands. I find the tenting on my current MS Sculpt to be about right, or perhaps very slightly too flat, but I feel that perhaps the two halves could be slightly further away from each other for optimum comfort - although as the Sculpt is all one unit I can't test this. As either the EZ or the M01 can be tented, angle adjusted and are fully split, I'm not seeing this as a useful point of distinction between the two, though.
There's the tenting aspect.. Then there's the typing height..
How high up your keyboard tray is relative to your body makes a difference..Current setup is an generic Ikea desk with a Humanscale keyboard tray attached underneath, using an Ergotech 3+1 monitor stand such that panels are just below eye level . Height and position are as close to optimum as I can achieve, the issue is now for me to look at changing the keyboard itself :) I have looked at sit/stand setups beforehand, but the science behind whether this is actually a benefit or not is not sufficiently clear for me to contemplate spending the enormous sums such a setup requires, so at present am looking at seated only.
Ideally (standing desk).. and with shoulders completely at rest.
But, if you're locked into sitting.. Then you want a keyboard tray that is THIN (1/2 inch) and as close to your lap as possible without touching it.. (this is for the ergodox)
mechanical is nice, but after going all the way with it.. I realized that as far as the ERGONOMICS are concerned.. only the tenting and typing height truly makes a difference..Interesting that you say that. I have heard very much the opposite from most other parties that I have talked to, and myself experience pain and tenderness in my fingertips - which I presume is the 'bottoming out' that I've seen referred to - from long typing sessions on my laptop or the MS Sculpt, both of which use non-mechanical switches. Further, the keys on the Sculpt get 'mushy' over time, particularly frequently-hit ones like Spacebar, and I have had to replace two now from non-responsiveness, so the durability of mechanical switches is also a big draw for me.
The switches, the material of the keyboard, all ultimately unimportant.
I was an early ErgoDox user and was pretty happy with its design. Like others though, I thought that there was room for improvement in the thumb clusters. Because of that I have built several keyboards since then to better address thumb switch placement. The ED thumb key issue is greatly improved by simply putting taller caps on the back row but my guess is that most people just assign less used functions to them.Interesting. I hadn't considered putting taller keycaps on - but I wonder whether that would cause issues with strain along the underside of the thumb by having the tip raised?
I had the opportunity to try out the M01 when they took it on tour a year ago and my observations were favorable. It fit my hand like a glove and I thought that it was comfortable to type on. It's apparent that the creator put a lot of thought into the typing experience. I've heard that it is not well set up for gamers but, not being one, that is just hearsay. To make a mock up, I'd recommend just blowing up an overhead picture of the M01 to where the spacing of the closer switches are 3/4" (19mm) apart. At the time I tried it, I didn't care for the bracket that connects the halves; it didn't allow for skewing the angle which I think is essential to reduce ulnar deviation. They may have addressed that since then though.Thank you very much for the input! Do you recall what your impressions of the palm toggle switches were? From looking at the layout the M01 does seem to look highly suitable, but those toggles are my biggest worry.
In a side by side comparison, ED wins on cost, availability, versatility, and in my opinion, looks. The M01 leads in overall comfort and better access to all of the thumb keys. Like any other keyboard that hasn't actually reached the market—be prepared for delays and the chance that it may never make it to distribution. This is not a indictment on the company, only the reality of such ventures.Of course - there's no particular urgency to this decision, which is why I'm trying to gather as much info as I can so I can make the right one :) Fully prepared for either purchase to not be finalised until next year at least.
Every other keyboard you have to drill some holes to get good tenting to match the Neutral angles in your hand..Could you perhaps elaborate on this a little more? From what I can see on their development blog (http://blog.keyboard.io/), the M01 looks to have significant tenting/angle adjustment options.
Interesting. I hadn't considered putting taller keycaps on - but I wonder whether that would cause issues with strain along the underside of the thumb by having the tip raised?
Do you recall what your impressions of the palm toggle switches were? From looking at the layout the M01 does seem to look highly suitable, but those toggles are my biggest worry.