Dimensions (and recommendations) - ED EZ, KB.io Mod 01

[SoulsCollective]

Hi folks,
I'm looking for a new keyboard. I do a reasonable amount of typing for my job (lawyer and research analyst) and leisure (prep for tabletop and general gaming), and having started to experience occasional aches and cramps I switched over to the MS Natural series about five years back, first the 4000 then the 7000 and now the Sculpt. This helped immensely, but having had to replace several keyboards due to feline intervention and the occasional misplaced glass of red, and starting to feel the annoyance of bottoming out and membranes, I've been wanting to move up to something cleanable, sturdy and with mechanical switches and nicer keycaps for some time now.

This seemed an unattainable dream every time went looking for something that ticked all the boxes - split half, raised/tented middle, mechanical but office-friendly switches, preferably wireless, not enormous, layout familiar to someone who has only ever used QWERTY. Having idly looked into this again just last week, however, it now seems that there are at least two candidates (ErgoDox EZ, Keyboardio Model M) and possibly more in the offing. I am somewhat technical, having built all my own machines since the 90s, but have never soldered or otherwise hardware-hacked, so would greatly prefer a ready-made solution.

I have done as much research as I can into each product from the sources I am aware of, however I still have doubts about both, in particular the thumb section design. I have long (base to tip of middle finger 11cm) but slender (middle knuckle 1.8cm wide) fingers and narrow palms (9.5cm across from base of thumb when spread; 7.5cm across base of fingers), and in a neutral position resting on keyboard the middle joint of my thumb sits only about 1.5cm away from the base of my index. From what I have read, a number of users of the ErgoDox EZ have complained that the thumb cluster is too far away from the rest of the keys with their thumb naturally falling in the gap in between. I suspect that I may also encounter this problem - I have an original Razer Orbweaver which I use for FPS titles, and the switch designated as 'Space' (which is intended to be hit with the thumb) I find a tortuously long stretch away from where my thumb naturally rests. From the product photos, the Keyboardio Model 01 looks like the thumb cluster may be more accessible, but I am worried that with the way I hold my fingers the base of my palm may be resting on the function toggle key.

Unfortunately, I also live in the most isolated capital city in the world, and there is virtually zero chance that I will be able to try either product in person, and at nearly AUD $500 for either I can't afford to take a punt on something that may not work for me. So - to get to the point - does anyone know if there has been published a set of measurements or to-scale diagram of either product, showing the distances between keys, so that I can try a mockup to see if it will work for me? Failing that, I wonder if perhaps anyone with similar hands to me might share their experiences with either? And just in case the incredibly unlikely should occur, anyone in Western Australia with either that I could test-drive to rule in or out?

TL;DR - dimensions for ErgoDox EZ and Keyboardio Model 01, product photos not helpful, opinions re suitability of smaller hands for either, outside chance of anyone from WA owning either.

Edited for clarity.

[davkol]

You could derive keyboard size from the industry standard for key spacing: ~19 mm. AFAIK only microTron and Esrille offer something smaller (as far as ergonomic keyboards go).

Anyway, exact dimensions of the ErgoDox [layout] are shown in this older thread. Thus, you can print out the layout and try it for yourself. I think my hands are about the same size as yours, except with shorter fingers, and I quite like my ErgoDox, although it's far from perfect.

[tp4tissue]

The dox thumb cluster issue is over stated. 

It will feel different than the normal reach when you first start using the dox. because the motion is not the same one you'd use for space bar now, 

But you get used to it quite quickly if you actually USE the dox. .

[SoulsCollective]

You could derive keyboard size from the industry standard for key spacing: ~19 mm. AFAIK only microTron and Esrille offer something smaller (as far as ergonomic keyboards go).

Anyway, exact dimensions of the ErgoDox [layout] are shown in this older thread. Thus, you can print out the layout and try it for yourself. I think my hands are about the same size as yours, except with shorter fingers, and I quite like my ErgoDox, although it's far from perfect.

Thanks very much for the reply, that's exactly what I was after - although the only diagrams there that match the current/EZ layout don't have dimensions given, so I do hope they're to-scale.

The dox thumb cluster issue is over stated. 

It will feel different than the normal reach when you first start using the dox. because the motion is not the same one you'd use for space bar now, 

But you get used to it quite quickly if you actually USE the dox. .

Thanks for the input, but given the price of either keyboard I really can't afford to take a punt without at least trying a mockup first.

[tp4tissue]

Thanks for the input, but given the price of either keyboard I really can't afford to take a punt without at least trying a mockup first.

Part 1... there are going to be many more SEEEMINGLY expensive things in your life...

Part 2... There's no way to mock up in this situation , because the transition requires extensive use.

Part 3... IF money is truly so tight at the $200 price point in ones life, Buying a keyboard (which is something you already own in other forms), should probably be registered as frivolous..

Part 4...  WHAT IS the ERGODOX.. WHAT DOES IT DO....

____   The ergodox is the only platform out right now that can be modified to match your neutral WRIST angle..  greatly enhancing typing comfort..


____   There is a catch...    HOW BADLY do you really need this..   How much do you ACTUALLY type..


____   There are alot of kidz coming to geekhack, and while they may spend lots of time in front of a computer,   they don't actually hit the keyboard all that much..


WHILE it is the case that the Ergodox is better for all situations, whether you use it or not.. 


IF YOU DON"T use it...  the Utility on your $Dollar is low,  and this goes back to appropriations and monitoring of your other life priorities.

[vvp]

____   The ergodox is the only platform out right now that can be modified to match your neutral WRIST angle..  greatly enhancing typing comfort..

Doesn't any fully split keyboard allow that? And there are some fully split keyboards on the market. Although all of them are probably row staggered without thumb clusters. Therefore they are rather inferior from my point of view.

[SoulsCollective]

*snip*

What an odd response.

There is indeed a way to mock up, as the height of keys is known, the keyboard is all on one plane, and a layout diagram showing angles and placements was linked above

I'm uncertain whether the body of your post was intended to be derogatory, but I shall assume otherwise and assure you that I do, indeed, use a keyboard to type on, and do, indeed, value ergonomics in a keyboard, as I have mentioned in the OP. The rest of your comments are also somewhat odd, as the Ergodox is certainly not the only keyboard on which wrist angle can be modified, costs significantly more than $200, and a blanket statement that 'the Ergodox is better for all situations' is self-evidently subjective and incapable of being supported.

Further, unless I am misinterpreting your post, I find your comment that unless I am prepared to spend $500 on a keyboard I might find uncomfortable I should not be spending any money at all on a new keyboard and should 'monitor my other life priorities' to be slightly insulting and very odd indeed. I am attempting to make sure I do as much research as possible in order to ensure that I get something that is suitable for me. You may be willing (and able) to spend large amounts on the off-chance that something works for you, but I am not.

[vvp]

Make  your mock up and you will get a little better idea if it suits you. But you will not know definitely without typing on it for a few weeks. Ergodox has significantly different layout and especially thumb clusters that you probably will need about a week or two of adjustement / learning time. That is probably what tp4tissue wanted to tell you. That mock up may not be enough to know for sure. You may need actual typing.

Ergodox is a very nice keyboard. I would probably have one too if I would not consider the flat (i.e. not like on Kinesis/Maltron) bottom row a big problem. Other rows can be flat. I do not care that much about them. Although I prefer them curved too. But the flat bottom row is pretty much useless. I also think that thumb cluster is a bit too far but that is a minor thing too.

tp4tissue is a special kind of user. He types very quickly and like a pianist moving his hands all over the keyboard to get "lever". He prefers flat keyboards.

[tp4tissue]

*snip*

What an odd response.

There is indeed a way to mock up, as the height of keys is known, the keyboard is all on one plane, and a layout diagram showing angles and placements was linked above

I'm uncertain whether the body of your post was intended to be derogatory, but I shall assume otherwise and assure you that I do, indeed, use a keyboard to type on, and do, indeed, value ergonomics in a keyboard, as I have mentioned in the OP. The rest of your comments are also somewhat odd, as the Ergodox is certainly not the only keyboard on which wrist angle can be modified, costs significantly more than $200, and a blanket statement that 'the Ergodox is better for all situations' is self-evidently subjective and incapable of being supported.

Further, unless I am misinterpreting your post, I find your comment that unless I am prepared to spend $500 on a keyboard I might find uncomfortable I should not be spending any money at all on a new keyboard and should 'monitor my other life priorities' to be slightly insulting and very odd indeed. I am attempting to make sure I do as much research as possible in order to ensure that I get something that is suitable for me. You may be willing (and able) to spend large amounts on the off-chance that something works for you, but I am not.

................
.......


Necessity should be evaluated first.  then cost..


After extensive personal experience with the Ergodox (as I am its most prolific promoter here on GH)...

I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people are not ready for it.. and simply don't need to go this extra step..


So...  who needs one..  If you've got wrist pain, or shoulder pain as the result of long hours at the computer..   The ergodox can help immensely..     


IF NOT.. put your other life priorities first,   because mechanical keyboards are a fad for anyone whose life doesn't depend on typing.


So, what about all them kmacs and korean aluminum boards..

---  These are Collectors ---  Shopoholics ---   Luxury market ---   

example:

-------Josh with the expensive guitar,  but he kind doesn't know any chord, and just plays that one song to test if his next guitar works....  Josh loves to tell you have how raw the sound is... He also has this tube amp which distorts everything that goes in,  but he uses the phrase Warm alot and assures you that's how its suppose to sound.. ---

[tp4tissue]

 He prefers flat keyboards.

LIES... Tp4 mains ergodox 3 years running..

[vvp]

LIES... Tp4 mains ergodox 3 years running..

Show Image

And???
Ergodox is a flat keyboard! It is not contoured. It's flat. It is also split so you can separate and tilt halves individually whatever way you want. But each half stays flat.

[tp4tissue]

LIES... Tp4 mains ergodox 3 years running..

Show Image

And???
Ergodox is a flat keyboard! It is not contoured. It's flat. It is also split so you can separate and tilt halves individually whatever way you want. But each half stays flat.

hahaha well you got me there..

I typically use the term flat to mean keyboards that lay flat.

Whereas the ergodox can be tented..


Now if you're comparing the Contour bowl of the maltron..  I maintain that setup is a gimmick..


While it doesn't hurt to have the bowl..  It doesn't really help either..

Because the reduction in travel distance is minimal, and travel distance between keys has never really been the cause of most ergonomic problems.

[SoulsCollective]

Make  your mock up and you will get a little better idea if it suits you. But you will not know definitely without typing on it for a few weeks. Ergodox has significantly different layout and especially thumb clusters that you probably will need about a week or two of adjustement / learning time. That is probably what tp4tissue wanted to tell you. That mock up may not be enough to know for sure. You may need actual typing.

Oh, I'm fully prepared for learning time The main issue is that I have experienced strain with thumb-centric designs before, am aware that the thumb cluster distance on the EZ is an issue for others, and want to get a sense of whether the distances involved are going to require me to make an uncomfortable stretch. Making a mockup will certainly tell me where my thumbs naturally rest in relation to the thumb cluster, and thus answer this question with a reasonable degree of certainty.

Ergodox is a very nice keyboard. I would probably have one too if I would not consider the flat (i.e. not like on Kinesis/Maltron) bottom row a big problem. Other rows can be flat. I do not care that much about them. Although I prefer them curved too. But the flat bottom row is pretty much useless. I also think that thumb cluster is a bit too far but that is a minor thing too.

Having only used 'flat' (in the sense of all in one plane) keyboards before, although always tented, this is probably not going to be an issue for me.

*snip*

If you have any specific comments to make in relation to either the KB M01 or the ED EZ that may assist me to work out which would be the most suitable for my particular needs, taking into account the large amount of information I have tried to provide in the OP, the I would love to hear from you. If you have used yours for three years then you would surely have a lot of input to offer, and I would like to benefit from it

If not, then please allow me to make my own decisions regarding whether I am 'ready for' either, and, further, please stop insinuating that simply because I am cautious with my purchases I am following a 'fad' or am a 'shopaholic' and should 'put my life priorities in order'. These comments are unhelpful and insulting.

[tp4tissue]

Keep in mind.. The ergodox is not actually very ergonomic without doing alot of tweaking..

There's the tenting aspect..   Then there's the typing height.. 


How high up your keyboard tray is relative to your body makes a difference..


Ideally (standing desk)..  and with shoulders completely at rest.


But, if you're locked into sitting..   Then you want a keyboard tray that is THIN (1/2 inch) and as close to your lap as possible without touching it..   (this is for the ergodox)



The ergodox is not going to handle a spill. they just weren't designed for this, they were designed to minimize DIY production cost.


What I actually recommend  is getting one of those split scissor keyboards..  Drill some holes on the inner edge,  and put 100mm m3 bolts through the holes for tenting..


mechanical is nice,  but after going all the way with it..  I realized that as far as the ERGONOMICS are concerned.. only the tenting and typing height truly makes a difference..   


The switches, the material of the keyboard,  all ultimately unimportant.

[SoulsCollective]

Keep in mind.. The ergodox is not actually very ergonomic without doing alot of tweaking..

There's the tenting aspect..   Then there's the typing height..

If I was to purchase either, I would certainly be tenting and with the split halves positioned at a comfortable distance. The ED bundle I am contemplating has the wrist rest and tenting kit, while the KB M01 apparently includes the tenting stands. I find the tenting on my current MS Sculpt to be about right, or perhaps very slightly too flat, but I feel that perhaps the two halves could be slightly further away from each other for optimum comfort - although as the Sculpt is all one unit I can't test this. As either the EZ or the M01 can be tented, angle adjusted and are fully split, I'm not seeing this as a useful point of distinction between the two, though.

How high up your keyboard tray is relative to your body makes a difference..
Ideally (standing desk)..  and with shoulders completely at rest.
But, if you're locked into sitting..   Then you want a keyboard tray that is THIN (1/2 inch) and as close to your lap as possible without touching it..   (this is for the ergodox)

Current setup is an generic Ikea desk with a Humanscale keyboard tray attached underneath, using an Ergotech 3+1 monitor stand such that panels are just below eye level . Height and position are as close to optimum as I can achieve, the issue is now for me to look at changing the keyboard itself I have looked at sit/stand setups beforehand, but the science behind whether this is actually a benefit or not is not sufficiently clear for me to contemplate spending the enormous sums such a setup requires, so at present am looking at seated only.

mechanical is nice,  but after going all the way with it..  I realized that as far as the ERGONOMICS are concerned.. only the tenting and typing height truly makes a difference..   

The switches, the material of the keyboard,  all ultimately unimportant.

Interesting that you say that. I have heard very much the opposite from most other parties that I have talked to, and myself experience pain and tenderness in my fingertips - which I presume is the 'bottoming out' that I've seen referred to - from long typing sessions on my laptop or the MS Sculpt, both of which use non-mechanical switches. Further, the keys on the Sculpt get 'mushy' over time, particularly frequently-hit ones like Spacebar, and I have had to replace two now from non-responsiveness, so the durability of mechanical switches is also a big draw for me.

I appreciate your comments and input

[SoulsCollective]

Leaving aside the ED EZ for a moment, does anyone have any experience with the KB.io M01 that they could share? Or, ideally, an idea of the dimensions/layout diagram?

[kurplop]

I was an early ErgoDox user and was pretty happy with its design. Like others though, I thought that there was room for improvement in the thumb clusters. Because of that I have built several keyboards since then to better address thumb switch placement. The ED thumb key issue is greatly improved by simply putting taller caps on the back row but my guess is that most people just assign less used functions to them. Having said that, don't let the negative talk dissuade you from getting the ED. We in the keyboard community are very critical of everything keyboard related and just because there are things to pick at doesn't mean that it's bad.

I had the opportunity to try out the M01 when they took it on tour a year ago and my observations were favorable. It fit my hand like a glove and I thought that it was comfortable to type on. It's apparent that the creator put a lot of thought into the typing experience. I've heard that it is not well set up for gamers but, not being one, that is just hearsay. To make a mock up, I'd recommend just blowing up an overhead picture of the M01 to where the spacing of the closer switches are 3/4" (19mm) apart. At the time I tried it, I didn't care for the bracket that connects the halves; it didn't allow for skewing the angle which I think is essential to reduce ulnar deviation. They may have addressed that since then though.

With all of the hand issues I have, fingertip sensitivity was the only one I have not experienced. I've heard others comment on how not bottoming out has helped this condition though, so going to a mechanical switch sounds like a good path to follow.

In a side by side comparison, ED wins on cost, availability, versatility, and in my opinion, looks. The M01 leads in overall comfort and better access to all of the thumb keys. Like any other keyboard that hasn't actually reached the market—be prepared for delays and the chance that it may never make it to distribution. This is not a indictment on the company, only the reality of such ventures.

Keep in mind, the more contoured and fitted the keyboard is, the greater the possibility that other functions like mousing will be more difficult to transition to.

Best wishes on your decision.

[tp4tissue]

Every other keyboard you have to drill some holes to get good tenting to match the Neutral angles in your hand..


But on the ergodox,  it already --accidentally-- has all the holes you need , in the right places..

[SoulsCollective]

I was an early ErgoDox user and was pretty happy with its design. Like others though, I thought that there was room for improvement in the thumb clusters. Because of that I have built several keyboards since then to better address thumb switch placement. The ED thumb key issue is greatly improved by simply putting taller caps on the back row but my guess is that most people just assign less used functions to them.

Interesting. I hadn't considered putting taller keycaps on - but I wonder whether that would cause issues with strain along the underside of the thumb by having the tip raised?

I had the opportunity to try out the M01 when they took it on tour a year ago and my observations were favorable. It fit my hand like a glove and I thought that it was comfortable to type on. It's apparent that the creator put a lot of thought into the typing experience. I've heard that it is not well set up for gamers but, not being one, that is just hearsay. To make a mock up, I'd recommend just blowing up an overhead picture of the M01 to where the spacing of the closer switches are 3/4" (19mm) apart. At the time I tried it, I didn't care for the bracket that connects the halves; it didn't allow for skewing the angle which I think is essential to reduce ulnar deviation. They may have addressed that since then though.

Thank you very much for the input! Do you recall what your impressions of the palm toggle switches were? From looking at the layout the M01 does seem to look highly suitable, but those toggles are my biggest worry.

In a side by side comparison, ED wins on cost, availability, versatility, and in my opinion, looks. The M01 leads in overall comfort and better access to all of the thumb keys. Like any other keyboard that hasn't actually reached the market—be prepared for delays and the chance that it may never make it to distribution. This is not a indictment on the company, only the reality of such ventures.

Of course - there's no particular urgency to this decision, which is why I'm trying to gather as much info as I can so I can make the right one Fully prepared for either purchase to not be finalised until next year at least.

Again, I very much appreciate your input

Every other keyboard you have to drill some holes to get good tenting to match the Neutral angles in your hand..

Could you perhaps elaborate on this a little more? From what I can see on their development blog, the M01 looks to have significant tenting/angle adjustment options.

[vvp]

It is not fully split. But at least it has column stagger instead of row stagger.

You can bent M01 it on one direction only. From this point of view IBM did better in far far past:
http://clickykeyboards.com/product/1994-options-by-ibm-model-m15-ergonomic-13h6689-27-sep-94/

Fully split is better. You have much more options adjusting angles and you can adjust also distance between halves.

[kurplop]

Interesting. I hadn't considered putting taller keycaps on - but I wonder whether that would cause issues with strain along the underside of the thumb by having the tip raised?

 Do you recall what your impressions of the palm toggle switches were? From looking at the layout the M01 does seem to look highly suitable, but those toggles are my biggest worry.

Because the thumb action is more of a lateral drop of the thumb than a poke, the greatest problem is accessibility. I personally find the action very comfortable and I have advanced arthritis and limited range of motion in my thumbs and fingers. Unlike you, I don't have sensitivity issues at the tips of my fingers and thumbs.

Unfortunately I don't have much of a memory about the palm switches. It must not have made much of an impression on me. I do know that several people here have added palm switches to their Kinesis Advantages and rave about the benefits of doing so.

The later versions of the M01 base seem to address the tent/skew issue as long as the halves aren't connected.


Personal preferences: (Take the following comments with a grain of salt because there are many different opinions about keyboard ergonomics based on personal physical considerations, type of keyboard usage, whether it will be stationary or frequently moved, typing style, desk space, and whether it will be on the desk or tray.)

While many like the separated halves, after I found the ideal placement for me I permanently mounted my ErgoDox, and subsequent keyboards, in a unified case. It takes up less space, has fewer exposed wires, it's simpler to move around, and with the proper skewing I didn't think it necessary or even desirable to have a big spread. (Because I have a track ball mounted between the halves, there is a natural 3" spread between halves.)

I like the staggered columns. For people typing from the home row, it allows the fingers to rest in a very natural position.

Thumb keys are great. I have weak and inflexible pinkie fingers. Because of that I've eliminated the outside modifier rows and have those functions on the thumb clusters.

Tenting is good but not as necessary as skewing. My portable keyboard (AlumaPlop) has a 9º tenting angle (a bit of a compromise to keep a low profile) but I find 15º (Planet 6) to be more than enough to mitigate pronation issues without looking like a pyramid on the desk.  Also, because I use a tray, height is more that just about aesthetics.

I mention my preferences, more to make you aware of other issues you may not have considered than to push you in any direction.


Whatever you choose, keep us updated on your decision and observations.