[IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)

[zslane]

I definitely intend to bring it to their attention.

[MustacheRabbit]

On the topic of molds and homing keys, do we know if G20 caps have scoops available? I have come to prefer them leagues beyond bars or nipples, and I think they would compliment those homing key designs rather nicely if they exist.

[zslane]

The G20 family is strictly a flat top style. There is no top curvature to any G20 keycap, period. Homing bumps are the only option.

[mogo]

The G20 family is strictly a flat top style. There is no top curvature to any G20 keycap, period. Homing bumps are the only option.

Are you positive on that? I've been seeing these divot-looking blanks in some peoples crap bags

[zslane]

I have no idea what those are, but Signature Plastics' spec sheet for the G20 family only lists homing bump and homing bar as options, not deepdish.

[e_l_tang]

I have no idea what those are, but Signature Plastics' spec sheet for the G20 family only lists homing bump and homing bar as options, not deepdish.

Check out this page. Could the dished top surface that it mentions have been made?

[Tom_Kazansky]

Tooling for a dished top surface [...] has been delayed.

so the "dished top" will be available in the future?
some people would prefer that but as for me, for this specific keyset, I disagree about the "dished top", homing bump/bar please!

[zslane]

Don't worry. Even if it does exist, I won't use the "dish top" variant for the same reason I didn't use DSA.

[zslane]

Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[e_l_tang]

Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.

[Seelen]

This set is extremely strange and wonderful. Always cool to see weird and creative stuff

[PollandAkuma]

I'm interested to hear positive experiences of g20 profile, and why they found it great, because this set looks tempting 

[JaccoW]

Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.

Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.

[dante]

Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.

Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.

Matt3o confirmed SP is slammed with work and his response doesn't sound 100% confident if a rerun of SA Nuclear Green will happen in 2017.

Suggesting that they sacrifice resources for a few keys that are likely not even profitable in the first place would be a terrible business decision.  There appears to be competition coming from China (ie: XDA like keys/etc.) so IMHO they should milk the existing molds while they can.

To be honest I'm surprised they are dedicating the resources as it is for this bizarre set.

[zslane]

To be honest I'm surprised they are dedicating the resources as it is for this bizarre set.

The resources they are dedicating to this set are pretty minimal at this stage. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably has the lowest priority of all their WIP projects right now. But along with everything else they are doing, SP wants to keep their "Set of the Month" pipeline filled, and this is one of those sets.

Of course, whether or not you feel G20 Semiotic deserves to be an SP Set of the Month is entirely another matter.

[e_l_tang]

Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.

Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.

Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.

Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.

Matt3o confirmed SP is slammed with work and his response doesn't sound 100% confident if a rerun of SA Nuclear Green will happen in 2017.

Suggesting that they sacrifice resources for a few keys that are likely not even profitable in the first place would be a terrible business decision.  There appears to be competition coming from China (ie: XDA like keys/etc.) so IMHO they should milk the existing molds while they can.

To be honest I'm surprised they are dedicating the resources as it is for this bizarre set.

I believe that if one is going to do something, one should do it right, or not do it at all. Since SP ventured to create the G20 profile, I imagined that SP should have at the very least created all of the shapes necessary to cover a completely standard keyboard.

[zslane]

A horizontal 2u keycap rotated 90 degrees does allow the G20 family to cover a standard full-size keyboard; it just looks a little odd due to the slope (and only in two spots off to the far right where it isn't as noticeable). I'm sure this seemed like a perfectly reasonable cost-savings measure on SP's part.

Let's fact it, perfectionism comes at a cost that people (and businesses) are not always willing to pay. Besides, I'm sure if a big contract landed from some industrial/commercial client who demanded dedicated G20 vertical 2u keycaps, it would happen. However, our mechboard community is not such a client (at least not in terms of having a massive G20-based order ready to place with them).

[zslane]

Latest prototypes: top row (original size), middle row 5% enlargement, bottom row 10% enlargement.



I'm told that SP's production department would prefer to go with the original graphics size due to the registration tolerances of their dye-sub printer. Of course, I like the bottom row because they look the most like my CG renders. I hope to check them out first-hand next week when I make my visit up north.

[dante]

Looking good!

[infodroid]

Latest prototypes: top row (original size), middle row 5% enlargement, bottom row 10% enlargement.

I'm told that SP's production department would prefer to go with the original graphics size due to the registration tolerances of their dye-sub printer. Of course, I like the bottom row because they look the most like my CG renders. I hope to check them out first-hand next week when I make my visit up north.

I also like the 10% enlarged version, because the graphics extend up to the edges of the key, but not beyond it. However the photo did not show the edges very clearly, so I could be way off.

What are the consequences of going beyond the registration tolerances of their printer?

In other words, what are the increased risks or problems associated with the 10% enlarged version compared to the original version?

[mogo]

Aaaa! Seeing them as real, not-rendered keys is so exciting! 

[zslane]

The danger of graphics that try to extend out to the very edges of a keycap is that they will appear really off-center if/when the keycaps get positioned slightly off during printing. But if you give yourself a small margin of whitespace, it helps diminish the visual impact of any slight mis-registration. This is what Melissa said in an e-mail:

We will do those 5 keys at 10% larger so you can see. You are right, there is a big tolerance for registration with sublimation - 0.020 inches is the standard (where with 2 shot it is only 0.005 inches). There are too many variables with the sublimation process to guarantee the image accuracy any more than that.

[infodroid]

I think that any off-center prints may be more noticeable when the legends are small, because 0.020 is a larger proportion of the area than if the graphics were more enlarged. Does this make sense?

So perhaps the best enlargement factor is the one that leaves a border of width 0.020 between the graphics and the edge of the key.

I can't tell which of the samples this might correspond to. But 0.020 is thinner than a stroke of a typical ballpoint pen, it might even be the 10% enlarged one.

[zslane]

The problem is with the red border. If centering is off a little on the original graphics, the red border will still rest entirely on the top of the keycap. But with the red borders that extend to the very outer edge, being off a little means the red border becomes badly distorted as it falls off the cliff, so to speak, on one or two sides.

[infodroid]

The problem is with the red border. If centering is off a little on the original graphics, the red border will still rest entirely on the top of the keycap. But with the red borders that extend to the very outer edge, being off a little means the red border becomes badly distorted as it falls off the cliff, so to speak, on one or two sides.

So do you think that a gap of width 0.020 inches around the graphics is sufficient, so the even if they are printed 0.020 inches off-center, they will in the worst case only touch the edge? Or do you mean that even a 0.020 gap around the graphics may not be enough, because if the printing is even slightly more off-center than that, and the legends fall of the cliff, they get badly distorted?

[zslane]

I can only relay what SP tells me. They like the original graphics because there is a comfortable margin with them (more than 0.020"). They don't like the 10% enlarged version because the red borders already start to slide over the sloped edges and into the margin of error. Any mis-registration will look very, very bad with them; essentially every single keycap would have to be perfectly centered to make an acceptable set, and that takes too much luck. Too many keycaps would fail inspection and waste a lot of production time and money.

The 5% enlarged version is an open question as far as I'm concerned. It looks like there is still a 0.020" margin for error there, but that is difficult to say with confidence until I can inspect the samples and discuss it with Melissa and her production team in person.

[infodroid]

You get to visit The Factory in person! That's really cool. I hope it goes well!

[dante]

zslane can you ask someone at SP (Melissa?) if they will be a guest on Top Clack?

[zslane]

I apologize in advance for not passing on any messages or requests. I'm not a community liaison, I'm just a designer making a brief visit to say hello and look at some prototypes. I hope everyone understands.

[dante]

zslane when this gets going can you create a ad/graphic for us to use in our signatures to help spread the word?

[zslane]

Yes, absolutely!

[dante]

Just something I thought of!  Sometimes a keyset GB may have missing/duplicate keys.

I know everyone makes mistakes but SP may want to be extra vigilant packing this particular set.  Otherwise they may have a number of email's saying something like "I'm missing the key that looks like a stick figure falling upside down. The one with a black background and a white body." 

And unfortunately that would be one of the easiest symbols to describe! 

[zslane]

If it will help, I will upload the part codes for all the keycaps so that anyone who needs to can inform SP of incorrect keycaps by the ids that I assigned to each.

[zslane]

So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month. 

[Arallu]

Congrats man, glad it's really turning out to meet your expectations!

[pixelpusher]

So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month. 

Here, sir.  You deserve it:

[pomk]

I'm ready to push the 'purchase everything' button. 

[graefeln]

So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month. 

Sort of happy that it looks Lightcycle might be facing delays; between it, Terminal, and now this, January was looking to be a tough month... So many nice ergodox kits right now.

[zslane]

Here's the G20 Semiotic banner:

[dante]

Got it!  Thanks!

I've linked mine to this thread until SP has an official listing up.

[mogo]

Lovely banner! I'll put mine up right away 

[Findecanor]

Oooh. I would be interested in a symbol-set for the two function rows of my modified G80-11800.
The coffee symbol would go on the Pause key, of course.

I have got a Weyland-Yutani logo keycap in Cherry profile from a previous group buy that I may put in the ~ -key's position.

That looks amazing.  I feel like I would have to wear a uniform to use that keyboard.

BTW, this is how the keyboards looked in Space:1999:

Many of the crew on Space:1999 that worked on special effects and on props worked later on Alien. Both were shot outside London, at Pinewood and Shepperton studios, respectively.

From what I have seen the keyboards in Alien had high-profile caps with spherical surfaces.
Mother's keyboard was also ortholinear, spherical keys, all the same "row" with 2u keys on the two lowest rows.

[brizzzle]

So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month. 

Hype!

[nevaenuf]

These look great.  I've wanted an excuse to buy G20s, but haven't loved the default sets.  Plus, need a new keyboard to put them on!

[iFreilicht]

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month. 

I guess we'll only get confirmation of that once SP does actually put them up? Don't want to spread the great news too early

[dante]

what's the story morning glory?

[zslane]

No news yet. I am still waiting to receive the first full prototype set for inspection.

[dante]

No news yet. I am still waiting to receive the first full prototype set for inspection.

I'm ready to buy; but if this were set of the month for February my wallet would not complain.

[muten-roshi]

Are there still no ISO-Enters with G20 profile?

[zslane]

No news yet. I am still waiting to receive the first full prototype set for inspection.

I'm ready to buy; but if this were set of the month for February my wallet would not complain.

Well, I just received a shipping notice from them, so I think the first full prototype set is on its way to me.

Whether or not the set will make it for January depends entirely on whether or not there are any issues with the prototype caps. If there are, then I will have to make adjustments, send them new graphics, and we try again. Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.