Author Topic: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing  (Read 8479 times)

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Offline REVENGE

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Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 07:23:50 »
Kickstarter



Fascinating.
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 07:26:13 »
Any geekhackers involved in this?

Offline GiraffePencils

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 07:28:16 »
ooooo, interesting

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 07:38:08 »
Hm...apparently this startup is near me and they're doing a LAN party for their product release where we can  test it. I should check that out...

Offline zeroni13

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 08:44:53 »
Looks interesting, maybe I will try this myself, bet I can use a Teensy to sense the analog input from the sensor like a joystick.
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Offline damorgue

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 09:11:50 »
They don't depict the metric **** ton of standoffs they will need to keep them at a fixed distance though.

Neat idea though. Do they have to manually cut off the bottom-most part of the switch?

Offline lmadsen

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 09:53:31 »
While I probably wouldn't classify as a true geekhacker, I have lurked on geekhack a lot as I was developing Aimpad.  If you guys have any questions to keep the discussion going I'll keep an eye on the thread. 

To address the question of the standoffs,  to a certain extent we will need to need have a fair number to keep the distance fixed as you identified, however keep in mind that not every key on the keyboard is analog, so we only need to ensure that there is no flex of the board around the targeted analog keys which simplifies it a little.

As for the bottom of the switch, manually drilling out the bottom is the worst case scenario though we have a production plan to automate it if necessary.  The goal is to insert a block during the molding process to have the hole be a part of the mold.

I'd love to keep the discussion going, so fire away!

Offline downlinx

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 10:21:02 »
I will be at the Lan Party as well, way to go Lmadsen on the launch, I really hope this takes off for you.

Offline spolia optima

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 11:19:59 »
I like this idea a lot. have 2 questions:

1. Would a company like Cherry ever have a need to produce analog switches? This is a 3rd party company, but it seems like this type of sensor technology would be right up Cherry's alley.

2. Isn't this technically possible with a capacitive keyswitch, like the Topre?
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 14:56:28 »
Your kickstarter says that your use of IR sensor to measure switch depression is patented. Would you mind linking to the patent? (To be honest, at first glance the method sounds pretty darn obvious. But maybe there’s something subtle that makes it patent-worty.)

I’m skeptical that a symmetrical (“ambidextrous”) design can be made anywhere near as comfortable as a single-handed one, considering that one hand, by itself, is highly asymmetrical. How much have you tested various one- or two-handed layouts?

however keep in mind that not every key on the keyboard is analog, so we only need to ensure that there is no flex of the board around the targeted analog keys which simplifies it a little.
Which keys are analog?
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 April 2014, 14:59:10 by jacobolus »

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:14:57 »
Hm...a while ago, I saw a project that put analog sensors under the WASD keys of a full keyboard, but it had to use different sensors. This technology would allow you to use the same switches throughout, achieving a consistent feel, which seems like it could be a superior implementation.

For me to be interested, though, it would have to be integrated into a regular keyboard (perhaps with the analog tech on WASD and IJKL? Then you could have two emulated analog "sticks" for games that call for such). I just don't care about standalone gaming keypads.
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Offline JPG

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:16:02 »

I just saw the video. I am a fool.
I am quite curious about the benefit from this modification feeling wise. I recently went from cherry to model F Buckling spring and the difference is BIG. And even if I prefer it, not everyone would prefer it since the buckling spring comes with both tactility and click.


Yet, what I like in the model F is the huge tactility it offers AND the solidness that you feel when you type. Yet the fact that it's capacitive make it relatively light to actuate. So the switches are relatively light yet super tactile.


What I see from you cherry modification is that it would remove the contact with the metal part while retaining the contact with the slider. I am no expert, but the only change coming from it would be a little less friction. Yet, when you look at the force charts for liner switches, I don't see any change before or after the actuation. I don't know if it comes from the accuracy of the charts, but if they are accurate it would mean that it does not really affect the feeling of the switch in a significant way.


So I am quite curious as to how removing the metal contact inside a cherry switch influence the feeling when pressing a key. If you are able to describe it I would be quite curious about it.


I don't see another advantage for making this modification other than to affect the feel of the switch, yet if there's another one I would be happy to hear it!


I think it's a very interesting project, but I am skeptical of the gain in this context.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:19:50 by JPG »
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:19:10 »
Hm...a while ago, I saw a project that put analog sensors under the WASD keys of a full keyboard, but it had to use different sensors.
That was probably Ben Heck’s hack linked up-thread, with the magnets in the sliders and hall-effect sensors?

Edit: whoops, it was linked in the kickstarter discussion, not here.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:24:11 by jacobolus »

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:24:54 »
Hm...a while ago, I saw a project that put analog sensors under the WASD keys of a full keyboard, but it had to use different sensors.
That was probably Ben Heck’s hack linked up-thread, with the magnets in the sliders and hall-effect sensors?

Yes, I think that's the one.

I wonder if this technology is accurate enough that IJKL could be used as a mouse without it sucking the way "mouse keys" normally do...if it could, and the technology were integrated into a keyboard with a very easy way (holding a modifier?) of switching between having the relevant keys report as a mouse versus as keyboard keys (which, I presume, would use the normal switch mechanism rather than the IR), you could have a no-hand-repositioning form of pointing device, like a TrackPoint but without the need for specialized keycaps. That could give it more appeal than just the gaming possibilities of being able to have your keyboard emulate a controller without losing the flexibility of the analog sticks. Of course, none of this applies to the current implementation in a standalone gamepad.
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Offline JPG

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:35:12 »
Hm...a while ago, I saw a project that put analog sensors under the WASD keys of a full keyboard, but it had to use different sensors.
That was probably Ben Heck’s hack linked up-thread, with the magnets in the sliders and hall-effect sensors?

Yes, I think that's the one.

I wonder if this technology is accurate enough that IJKL could be used as a mouse without it sucking the way "mouse keys" normally do...if it could, and the technology were integrated into a keyboard with a very easy way (holding a modifier?) of switching between having the relevant keys report as a mouse versus as keyboard keys (which, I presume, would use the normal switch mechanism rather than the IR), you could have a no-hand-repositioning form of pointing device, like a TrackPoint but without the need for specialized keycaps. That could give it more appeal than just the gaming possibilities of being able to have your keyboard emulate a controller without losing the flexibility of the analog sticks. Of course, none of this applies to the current implementation in a standalone gamepad.


If not considering the cost, I suppose that you could use it for the whole keyboard and program the controller to decide if the key behave like a normal key or an analog key. Add function layers or a key to change behavior/mapping and you can go from normal keyboard to a gaming pad 100% customizable on the fly! But it's probably more realist to have it in a gaming pad.
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Offline mougrim

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:40:09 »
Interesting. They reviving idea of optical switch? Nice!

I'd love to see some new magnetic reed switches too. They're fascinating (in my humble opinion).
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 15:53:00 »
If not considering the cost, I suppose that you could use it for the whole keyboard and program the controller to decide if the key behave like a normal key or an analog key. Add function layers or a key to change behavior/mapping and you can go from normal keyboard to a gaming pad 100% customizable on the fly! But it's probably more realist to have it in a gaming pad.
One difficult part would be getting enough analog to digital converters and enough logic to scan all the keys sufficiently fast. It’s going to take more than an 8 bit AVR microcontroller or whatever.

Offline mougrim

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 16:28:07 »
If not considering the cost, I suppose that you could use it for the whole keyboard and program the controller to decide if the key behave like a normal key or an analog key. Add function layers or a key to change behavior/mapping and you can go from normal keyboard to a gaming pad 100% customizable on the fly! But it's probably more realist to have it in a gaming pad.
One difficult part would be getting enough analog to digital converters and enough logic to scan all the keys sufficiently fast. It’s going to take more than an 8 bit AVR microcontroller or whatever.
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Offline Sifo

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 16:28:20 »
You had me sold at "walk the same speed as NPCs"
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Offline lmadsen

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 17:58:48 »
I was pulled into a few other threads, but I'm back for a bit.  jacobolus asked where the analog keys are.  In our current prototype we have 6 analog keys.  The equivalent location on a keyboard is the WASD keys as well as Q and E.  The Q and E analog location works very well in FPS games that have analog lean such as ARMA II and DayZ.  Slightly peaking just your head around a corner is pretty dang nice, but this location can also be effectively used when adjusting your yaw while flying helicopters or your spin in jets in BF4 for example.  The plan is to add at least two more analog keys that would be reachable by the pinky and the thumb so that those fingers would have analog functionality accessible to them.

Someone else asked about a full keyboard instead of the standalone device we are currently focused on.  Overwhelming the biggest question I have been asked is, "Where's the full keyboard?!?!?"  As Geekhack is a well respected community for all things keyboard related I have a question that I'd like to get your feedback on.   As many of you have your preference for a specific Cherry MX switch type, would you want a whole new keyboard that was Cherry MX Black or Red if it had analog functionality?  My thought process was you want a specific switch type in your Keyboard and you don't want anything else.  The problem with a full keyboard is that you want a uniform feel to your entire keyboard.  You wouldn't want to have some be Blacks and some be Blues because the uniform typing experience would be horrible.  Due to the nature of analog keys you need to have the key be a linear switch because having a "bump" or "clack" while pressing the button would lead to a "jarring" effect on the analog reading.  So, would you be willing to give up your Cherry Blue or Brown switch for a Black or Red?  I am heavily considering this option, but if anyone has built their own ErgoDox they know the components that make up a mechanical keyboard can get ridiculously expensive in lower volumes.  So I might be able to make a full Cherry MX Black keyboard with 8 or so analog keys for around $199.  Is that justifiable or just crazy?

FoxWolf1 mentioned mouse control with IJKL.  This would be pretty damn awesome.  Pinnacle Game Profiler, the software we are bundling in the product, actually has some very impressive gamepad to mouse mapping functionality.  Like you mentioned, traditionally using a digital keyboard to mouse emulation the effect is pretty terrible.  You are limited to 8 directions and one speed.  Using the technology of Aimpad you have a much greater control over the mouse both in acceleration and speed.  I could see something like this happen.  At first all the keys (analog and digital) are just keyboard keystrokes.  You hit a key that "shifts" your keys to use WASD or IJKL as a mouse pointer and move the cursor somewhere else to type something else.  You shift back to keyboard mode to type a bit and then need to scroll the webpage you are on so you shift the keys again so that W is "Scroll Up" and S is "Scroll" down, then shift back to typing mode again.  This wouldn't be too difficult to set up at all.  Does that sound like something you'd be interested in?

jacobolus was asking about ambidextrious designs.  Our newest prototype that we are currently assembling for PAX East is our first stab at exploring ambidextrous design.  I imagine we'll get quite a bit of useful feedback from gamers if we are headed in the right direction or need to make some serious changes to our designs.

« Last Edit: Fri, 04 April 2014, 19:00:59 by lmadsen »

Offline Latin00032

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 21:01:41 »
I was pulled into a few other threads, but I'm back for a bit.  jacobolus asked where the analog keys are.  In our current prototype we have 6 analog keys.  The equivalent location on a keyboard is the WASD keys as well as Q and E.  The Q and E analog location works very well in FPS games that have analog lean such as ARMA II and DayZ.  Slightly peaking just your head around a corner is pretty dang nice, but this location can also be effectively used when adjusting your yaw while flying helicopters or your spin in jets in BF4 for example.  The plan is to add at least two more analog keys that would be reachable by the pinky and the thumb so that those fingers would have analog functionality accessible to them.

Someone else asked about a full keyboard instead of the standalone device we are currently focused on.  Overwhelming the biggest question I have been asked is, "Where's the full keyboard?!?!?"  As Geekhack is a well respected community for all things keyboard related I have a question that I'd like to get your feedback on.   As many of you have your preference for a specific Cherry MX switch type, would you want a whole new keyboard that was Cherry MX Black or Red if it had analog functionality?  My thought process was you want a specific switch type in your Keyboard and you don't want anything else.  The problem with a full keyboard is that you want a uniform feel to your entire keyboard.  You wouldn't want to have some be Blacks and some be Blues because the uniform typing experience would be horrible.  Due to the nature of analog keys you need to have the key be a linear switch because having a "bump" or "clack" while pressing the button would lead to a "jarring" effect on the analog reading.  So, would you be willing to give up your Cherry Blue or Brown switch for a Black or Red?  I am heavily considering this option, but if anyone has built their own ErgoDox they know the components that make up a mechanical keyboard can get ridiculously expensive in lower volumes.  So I might be able to make a full Cherry MX Black keyboard with 8 or so analog keys for around $199.  Is that justifiable or just crazy?

FoxWolf1 mentioned mouse control with IJKL.  This would be pretty damn awesome.  Pinnacle Game Profiler, the software we are bundling in the product, actually has some very impressive gamepad to mouse mapping functionality.  Like you mentioned, traditionally using a digital keyboard to mouse emulation the effect is pretty terrible.  You are limited to 8 directions and one speed.  Using the technology of Aimpad you have a much greater control over the mouse both in acceleration and speed.  I could see something like this happen.  At first all the keys (analog and digital) are just keyboard keystrokes.  You hit a key that "shifts" your keys to use WASD or IJKL as a mouse pointer and move the cursor somewhere else to type something else.  You shift back to keyboard mode to type a bit and then need to scroll the webpage you are on so you shift the keys again so that W is "Scroll Up" and S is "Scroll" down, then shift back to typing mode again.  This wouldn't be too difficult to set up at all.  Does that sound like something you'd be interested in?

jacobolus was asking about ambidextrious designs.  Our newest prototype that we are currently assembling for PAX East is our first stab at exploring ambidextrous design.  I imagine we'll get quite a bit of useful feedback from gamers if we are headed in the right direction or need to make some serious changes to our designs.

I like these ideas.

It seems like a full keyboard would be cool to do.

Having the wasd and ijkl cluster as analog would be good.

I think it would be worse to have a regular keyboard on your desk along with a separate aimpad. You might have to move stuff around to get a comfortable position now that you have an aimpad, a regular keyboard, and a mouse in the same area. This doesn't take into account if you use a large mouse pad.

Having just a tkl or 60 percent board with a wasd analog kit (aimpad technology) and a mouse keeps it simple and very functional.

Offline Vibex

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 04 April 2014, 21:15:01 »
A really interesting project. I mostly play rogue-likes and 2d games, but as this develops more I might be coerced into getting one just to play around with. One question though. Are your settings saved onto the aimpad itself, or is it all software remapping?

Offline Arc'xer

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 00:25:12 »
This is going to be a bit of a long post on an interesting bit of research I have done on the subject. Also I want to point out that as of yet I have not seen any considerable research or actions performed to test the entire digital vs analog nature. I'm not saying there isn't any information, I'm just saying it's very scant amount of it.

Let's just say this type of analog push-button style could be called the reintroduction of analog movement into PC gaming that has been occurring for quite a few years now even when analog gaming existed it never really made huge strides like the keyboard. While analog movement has always existed in various levels of support ranging from just a simple amount to many, many documented console commands(config commands etc.etc.). With that said even the best supporting engines of analog movement examples being the Quake(and Quake-based like GoldSRC and Source engines), Unreal as well a few others occasionally do have issues here and there and do require EXTENSIVE calibration often requiring hours if not days to accomplish it.

I'm just going to say that the Aimpad as well as Ben Heck's analog keyboard modification with cherry mx switch are not going to be too popular. Not that I'm trying to kick you while your still trying to achieve whatever level of success your trying to get but because it's not the correct application for analog control. Your relying on push-buttons with various levels of analog effects but on some level your still digitizing the effects of analog. In essence your analog system works fine but is still locked into tiers or stair steps and looking at your information it seems hard locked to three tiers of effects (low, med, high). And considering gamers mash down the keys you pretty much have difficulty keeping a fine control of adjusting per each tier of analog control.

Let's start with a preface of what I have done to research the desire by some for analog control in PC games like consoles who have analog control albeit with little to no customization. On a certain level the keyboard while offering digital only movement and giving instant fastest speed movement or selectable run speed with various keys like shift-run does give a more quick reaction compared to analog it does seem to be more instant and the fingers are quite nimble despite console gamers often being dumbfounded by the use of keyboards in games. The thumb-sticks are quite quick as well surprisingly even though they lack multi button press they do make up for it by giving you more general directions and movement. But we are not here to discuss thumb-sticks although they can be used people often forget the old joystick, the hand held device used to pilot airplanes.

In many, many gaming forums one of the most stupidest response people give is a joystick should never be used for aiming. But an interesting question is "Whom told you that a joystick is only for aiming". The irony of the situation is many early games particularly first person shooters with some auto-aim or planar auto-vert/auto-horizontal aim an example being doom or Duke 3D would often use the joystick to move the character and you would fire by placing the character on the target because the game wasn't really made to work with the mouse even though it can. Even more interesting the joystick in flight simulators or aircraft games is used to MOVE the aircraft around not necessarily aim it literally like a weapon in an FPS games. And even if you take it literally the aircraft is still being MOVED to the target based on an aircraft's body, wings, ailerons etc.etc., rather than MOUSE over to aim.

What I researched around is back when mice and more so to trackball, remember back in the early-mid-to-late 90's the trackball often outperformed sensors used in mice. During these times people began to use various controllers as well as mice and keyboard etc.etc. Obviously the mouse and keyboard did much better and often times made people either freak out because they just didn't understand due to using a joystick or gamepad. Or were amazed at how much better it was. I remember reading a forum post of someone playing doom multiplayer at an office when someone was using a mouse and was dominating while the other players were using joysticks and unable to keep up with the mouse user. In essence right when the whole arena fast play popped up the mouse and keyboard pretty much became the staple.

But here the thing is which is often a lost in translation. People still had that mantra that joystick is for aircraft and for aiming. But a handful of people began to use the joystick for analog movement along with a mouse or a trackball. These gamers are often called Joy/Mouse or Joy/Ball gamers who employ analog movement with the obviously more superior aiming device. Even early on you'd be surprised how many people actually employed this idea and this part is important because eventually a standalone unit popped up.

Although another company released the Assassin 3D(joy/ball combo controller) beforehand they eventually sold the rights to Mad Catz who released the PantherXL which was basically an all-in-one unit a joystick and a trackball and it was also the more popular unit despite it using A3D technology. Although the device was known to break quite frequently it did gain a cult success with some players and they even modded it with better mice sensors as well as even repairing them. Probably one of the few if not only remaining modders for the panther xl is Steven Hailer(SteveoA3D) unfortunately he seems to have removed quite a number of videos including his Quake live demo showing the unit in action.

Unfortunately as you can see it does present some negatives you can't aim with the right and move with the left like most PC gamers and your locked to a trackball. Quite a number of people got fed up with the Panther breaking down every so often and they got a high-quality joystick and trackball or mouse.

The joystick presents an interesting scenario comparatively to the mouse particularly low sensitivity. Low sensitivity involves using your arm, wrist, and hand to aim but is mostly recognized for long full arm sweeps across the mousepad. It's strange for many people because they assume the hand is so accurate and precise and yet low sensitivity has time after time proven them wrong in fact in the hands of an expert player as well as a gamer with good high quality monitor(high refresh rate, little to no motion blur etc.etc.) as well as a good computer high frame rates, sound card, good headphones etc.etc. they dominate till accusations of cheating are said or even kick and ban. In essence the keyboard presenting many tens and certainly over a hundred keys can be viewed as quite cumbersome in some respect due to the fact you have TOO many buttons it's not optimized for what would be called accurate and precise layout for reduction of mistakes and errors. Often times keyboard gamers play somewhat with a frantic key press in more traditional layouts or even custom layouts. It's no wonder some stick to WASD for convenience of larger buttons like Shift.

The joystick is held in the hand and your fingers actuate the buttons, hat tricks, trigger etc.etc. there are some limitations with the amount of buttons reachable by fingers. Although you could go down to the base to press the additional buttons it needs to be done by a quick player who would perform the action quickly or use their mouse hand to initiate the button temporarily being unable to aim. The actions of the joystick is basically done by the arm sometimes the hands and wrist but more often than not the arm.

Now some people are going to be asking what exactly does the joystick bring besides a huge learning curve from the normal. It gives you the analog control you want but it may reduce the pure digital speed factor basically the instant on/off. But the analog control even if it may reduce that jolt of speed, provides much more general movement and control over the character if properly implemented and the user is willing to play around with various config settings calibrating and fine-tuning the movement. One example I recall is a Quake player who used a Joy/Mouse setup and people kept asking him why his character moved funny, so even externally the character model was moving in a such a different way people saw it. Apparently when using the joystick the analog movement actually causes the hips of the quake model to turn based on the movement of the legs. In simplest terms everyone is moving their character like a robot the only movement seems to be a partial hip or full body turn with slight arm turning when mouse viewing. The analog player is moving around more realistically even with parameters for various body parts at least with the joystick movement.

Other interesting factors is the fact that many gamers don't creep around as often or if they do they use modifier keys to slow down their movement albeit with some arbitrary limit. But with the joystick you can move as slow(depending on the game much slower than modifier walk) or as max speed as you want whenever you want without taking an extra step nor putting your hand in an awkward posture. On top of that the joystick is not the only device I recall several gamers from various FPS particularly Unreal Tournament. Using a CH Pro Throttle as analog stick for movement. The normal slide throttle forward and backward for those movements and the miniature joystick as side to side movement.

Despite the fact the joystick can be used for analog movements it's not exactly perfect. Most are meant to be used with the right hand, there are some left handed joysticks and there are a few symmetric. But unfortunately joysticks are made for aerial vehicles and not exactly for FPS games and also considering most PC gamers aim with the right hand, left handed sticks are hard to find. But one major problem exists also and that's the sensors although joystick sensors have improved over the years they aren't exactly always found to be of such high quality in consumer joysticks. And considering geekhack is about having higher quality key switches as well the buttons in some cases could use an upgrade with some joystick still using cheaper methods for button presses(membrane dome, lower quality microswitches etc.etc.). As long as high-end, high-quality joystick is built using USB 2.0(1Khz) maybe even better using USB 3.0/3.1 updated polling style and with good quality internals(high quality, high polling sensors sensing lots of information) as well as strong heavy construction to prevent it flying across the desk it would really do MUCH better for FPS games.

Quote
USB 3.0+
A Special Note on Future USB Specifications.

The USB 3.0 specification dramatically changes the way that a host and HID-devices communicate. The basic data flow and transfer concepts are preserved, while some packets or specifications have been integrated or removed entirely. A few notable changes in dataflow should be mentioned.

A dual simplex connection is now being used which allows packets to leave and arrive simultaneously; these transfers are also no longer serial in nature (where packets must finish before the next begins). SOP packets have been replaced by isochronous timestamp packets (ITPs), while token packets have also been removed (IN is replaced by the handshake packet, while OUT has been incorporated into the data packet). SuperSpeed USB also supports continuous bursting for all types of functional data transfers, unlike USB 2.0. Also note that in the USB 3.0 specification continuous device polling has been eliminated and has been replaced by asynchronous notices.

This last note is of particular importance as each device now sends data when it is recorded; it is still host controlled, but in a different way that no longer limits packet sizes. A SuperSpeed interrupt can move up to three maximum sized packets per service interval (125µs, formerly known as a micro-frame), meaning that the maximum theoretical rate at which data can be received by the host is every 41.6µs, the equivalent of a 24000Hz polling rate in USB 2.0 terms*. The size of a service interval (125µs) represents the minimum theoretical rate of data transmission, or what would roughly equate to a 8000Hz polling rate in USB 2.0 terms*.

* The non-serial nature of USB 3.0 makes these translations an inexact correlation, but an idea of the increase in transmission speeds can be seen through these estimations.

If you go to various search engines and put in something like "Joystick analog movement" or "Specific game joystick analog movement" out pops various posts from people who played games like Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, Quake, Unreal etc.etc. using Joy/Mouse or Joy/Ball or Throttle/Mouse or Throttle/Ball or any other single handed controller using a mouse or trackball.

Unfortunately many of these threads are filled with people rehashing the same thing "Joystick is not for fps games", "OMG that is stupid you can't do that your gonna suck etc.etc.". Always failing to understand that it's for movement not for aiming and even if they understand they always say something like I'm not gonna waste my time or retrain myself etc.etc. but again it's probably not a factor of being ingrained in them using keyboard and mouse more likely there isn't as much support nor products of high quality to justify a switch. Even worse it's not so much these threads but the lack of quality threads from people posting good information.

A few videos from this person Unfortunately they are just recorded games and not actually recording the person using the Joy/Mouse setup in person to see it in action.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade I understand your doing something different and providing more capabilities and your pad does seem ergonomic with less buttons for less mistakes. But it just seems to lack that analog field found on a joystick. With the joystick you have quite a lot of room to move around versus the cherry mx 4MM travel distance. And also on the joystick not just make errors with little to no consequence but also have more room to adjust the actions your performing without relying on such a limited travel distance with cherry mx. And it's not just any cherry mx switch it's the cherry mx red 45g and even though it and the cherry mx brown are pretty close in weight the browns tactile bump does add a bit of resistance but the reds are linear and are noticeably lighter than the browns like I said before I question someone making such find tuned movement on a mx red all the time especially in certain moments. Maybe in a slower paced gamer or a more relaxed moment of time or even a different game but it just seems like people are gonna punch through the analog system abruptly all the time and hit max speed and if it still registers pre-max(mid, low) speeds your character may still sorta stutter in an analog fashion rather than a digital on/off motion more like a staircase effect rather than 1/0 for all intents and purposes if this occur people might ask why your character sorta stutters when running to full speed compared to everyone else.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 01:54:58 »
Your relying on push-buttons with various levels of analog effects but on some level your still digitizing the effects of analog. In essence your analog system works fine but is still locked into tiers or stair steps and looking at your information it seems hard locked to three tiers of effects (low, med, high).
This seems unlikely. They wouldn’t call it “analog” if it were just 3 discrete states. I think you’re just getting confused by their animated gif that shows 3 little text labels.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 02:01:20 »
WHY IS THAT GIF LIKE THAT?!?!?

That is the most OCD infuriating gif ever.  Why does the stem remain static in the gif, but the cap bumps up when the stem reaches the apogee?  And the cap jerks as it goes up and down, but the stem is fluid. So much misdirected rage from me.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 02:38:09 »
WHY IS THAT GIF LIKE THAT?!?!?

That is the most OCD infuriating gif ever.  Why does the stem remain static in the gif, but the cap bumps up when the stem reaches the apogee?  And the cap jerks as it goes up and down, but the stem is fluid. So much misdirected rage from me.
It looks like they just modified an existing animated gif. My guess is none of them are graphics pros / they didn’t have a lot of time to do it carefully.

Offline Bucake

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 09:22:07 »
i can't do without my keys for my in-game binds so the gamepad is not really an option for me :(
and although a fullsized keyboard with analog WASD keys sounds very nice; i am used to a 60% keyboard and a fullsized one is just not an option for me anymore.
i guess i'd only consider a TKL (or a 60% with dedicated arrow keys like the Pure Pro - hehe).

i totally want this (analog WASD keys on a keyboard) but i fear it won't be available on keyboards which match my preferences.

As many of you have your preference for a specific Cherry MX switch type, would you want a whole new keyboard that was Cherry MX Black or Red if it had analog functionality?

i would prefer reds, but would also do with blacks.

Quote
So I might be able to make a full Cherry MX Black keyboard with 8 or so analog keys for around $199.  Is that justifiable or just crazy?

i see analog (WASD) keys as a significant bonus/upgrade and would easily pay more than $200 for a board which has them, as long as the board matches my preferences.

Quote
At first all the keys (analog and digital) are just keyboard keystrokes.  You hit a key that "shifts" your keys to use WASD or IJKL as a mouse pointer and move the cursor somewhere else to type something else.  You shift back to keyboard mode to type a bit and then need to scroll the webpage you are on so you shift the keys again so that W is "Scroll Up" and S is "Scroll" down, then shift back to typing mode again.  This wouldn't be too difficult to set up at all.  Does that sound like something you'd be interested in?

the extra analog buttons on IJKL sounds like a nice bonus to me.
though, i consider an easy way to switch between 'regular keys' and 'analog keys' to be a necessity. something simple like a combination of keypresses would do fine for me (Ctrl Alt | for example).

edit: good on you for being active at overclock.net as well :D
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 April 2014, 10:26:06 by Bucake »
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 10:51:17 »
Why modify Cherry MX? Why not make a new linear switch to begin with, that has only an analogue sensor. That could be less scratchy.

If you use Cherry MX, could the sensor be put into the LED slot?

As many of you have your preference for a specific Cherry MX switch type, would you want a whole new keyboard that was Cherry MX Black or Red if it had analog functionality?
No. I dislike linear switches. I prefer Cherry MX Clear, which has a different force profile that I do think could be more compatible with analogue sensing, as long as you sense below the actuation point.

My thought process was you want a specific switch type in your Keyboard and you don't want anything else.
For a gamepad, I think that you could have different switches at different parts of the gamepad for different intended functions. You could have light linear analogue switches for keys that you hold down and tactile switches for the numeric row that is used to change weapon which is a "one-shot" action.
Just use differently shaped and/or coloured keycaps to show that they are different.
🍉

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 12:18:32 »
Someone else asked about a full keyboard instead of the standalone device we are currently focused on.  Overwhelming the biggest question I have been asked is, "Where's the full keyboard?!?!?"  As Geekhack is a well respected community for all things keyboard related I have a question that I'd like to get your feedback on.   As many of you have your preference for a specific Cherry MX switch type, would you want a whole new keyboard that was Cherry MX Black or Red if it had analog functionality?  My thought process was you want a specific switch type in your Keyboard and you don't want anything else.  The problem with a full keyboard is that you want a uniform feel to your entire keyboard.  You wouldn't want to have some be Blacks and some be Blues because the uniform typing experience would be horrible.  Due to the nature of analog keys you need to have the key be a linear switch because having a "bump" or "clack" while pressing the button would lead to a "jarring" effect on the analog reading.  So, would you be willing to give up your Cherry Blue or Brown switch for a Black or Red?  I am heavily considering this option, but if anyone has built their own ErgoDox they know the components that make up a mechanical keyboard can get ridiculously expensive in lower volumes.  So I might be able to make a full Cherry MX Black keyboard with 8 or so analog keys for around $199.  Is that justifiable or just crazy?

FoxWolf1 mentioned mouse control with IJKL.  This would be pretty damn awesome.  Pinnacle Game Profiler, the software we are bundling in the product, actually has some very impressive gamepad to mouse mapping functionality.  Like you mentioned, traditionally using a digital keyboard to mouse emulation the effect is pretty terrible.  You are limited to 8 directions and one speed.  Using the technology of Aimpad you have a much greater control over the mouse both in acceleration and speed.  I could see something like this happen.  At first all the keys (analog and digital) are just keyboard keystrokes.  You hit a key that "shifts" your keys to use WASD or IJKL as a mouse pointer and move the cursor somewhere else to type something else.  You shift back to keyboard mode to type a bit and then need to scroll the webpage you are on so you shift the keys again so that W is "Scroll Up" and S is "Scroll" down, then shift back to typing mode again.  This wouldn't be too difficult to set up at all.  Does that sound like something you'd be interested in?

jacobolus was asking about ambidextrious designs.  Our newest prototype that we are currently assembling for PAX East is our first stab at exploring ambidextrous design.  I imagine we'll get quite a bit of useful feedback from gamers if we are headed in the right direction or need to make some serious changes to our designs.

I have no problem at all with MX Black-- in fact, I am using my Noppoo right now, which has MX Black switches. Full size is also my preference, since I use the number pad and do not like the extra clutter and space inefficiency of a smaller keyboard plus standalone numberpad (which is also part of why I would be interested in a keyboard with built in analog controls, but not a standalone gamepad). Full size will also make your keyboard more acceptable to those who are not keyboard enthusiasts, though also less acceptable to those who are-- but I don't know how much overlap there is between the latter group and the market for such a strongly gaming-oriented product.

8 analog keys seems like a nice number, because then you could simulate two analog "sticks" at a time, allowing you to do game controller emulation.

For the mouse mode thing, could you have different options available for how it's toggled? Some people might prefer pressing a key to toggle, while others might prefer holding a key. Ideally your software would support a range of options for toggling between regular keyboard mode, mouse mode, joystick mode, and emulation mode for various forms of game controller.

Price is not a problem, so long as quality is good. People already pay over $200 for Topre keyboards, and even more for custom keyboards. But satisfying the demands of those who are willing to spend such amounts of money means meeting certain standards for assembly, materials, and general ruggedness.

Why modify Cherry MX? Why not make a new linear switch to begin with, that has only an analogue sensor. That could be less scratchy.

I actually like the idea that it's based on Cherry MX: this way, you can have consistent feel across the entire keyboard when it's being used as a keyboard, without the expense of using a custom switch on every key.

Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline lmadsen

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 13:40:13 »
The geekhack community is awesome!  The thoughtful discussion here is fantastic!  You have all brought up interesting concepts and echoed many of the thought processes that I've had over the years working through how to present this idea to the market.  I'd like to bring up a couple points of discussion relating to the use of a joystick vs an analog key.  There are two benefits of analog control based off the X, Y axis system:  Speed and Direction.   Using analog keys you can very easily control your speed.  Initially you might be used to mashing down the "W" key to move forward.  But it is a very small learning curve to begin adjusting your speed by the depth of that key press.  Using a joystick this concept is also very straight forward.  Move the stick a little forward and you move slowly, move it more, you move faster, etc.  This is obvious.  The big difference between an analog key and a joystick is direction and precision of that direction.  A FPS on PCs is not the best way to demonstrate analog direction because your direction is determined the vast majority of the time by the mouse.  When you are not moving forward then you are very likely side stepping to peak around a corner or dodge a rocket, etc.  With an analog key you have a absolutely precision in 8 directions.  I can guarantee when you press the A key on a keyboard you will side step at EXACTLY a 90 degree angle.  Like-wise when you use the analog "A" key I can guarantee you will side step at EXACTLY a 90 degree angle while simultaneously be able control the speed at which you are moving at that precise angle. When you side step with a joystick the level of precision of direction is not consistent.  You might be 85 or 95.  Does that matter?  Meh, maybe, maybe not.  But I do know that when you try and double tap the left direction with a gamepad on UT2004 to initiate a "dodge" action it sucks because you have to nail that 90 degree angle twice in a row.  On a keyboard and on Aimpad it is a piece of cake.  I demonstrate this in our "Amped About Aimpad" series on Youtube:


The other issue that deserves discussion is the nature of responsiveness of an analog key and a digital key.  When developers are programming the controls for movement with a keyboard they have to make some tradeoffs to accommodate the digital nature of keyboards.  Let's take for example a game where you need to drive.  When you are driving with A and D you will find in some games that if you quickly press the A or D key absolutely nothing will happen.  You'll keep going straight as if you didn't press the key at all.  If you press the key and hold it for just a split second longer it will activate and you'll jerk the wheel to turn.  The developer has to build in a small amount of "lag" in recognizing the movement to allow you to "feather" the steering wheel by tapping it quickly to sort of sporadically turn.  However, using an X,Y axis control like a joystick or Aimpad the steering wheel is immediately responsive because  the game is programmed to turn the "wheel" of the car immediately based off how far from the 0,0 X,Y coordinates you are.  The same is true for general movement (not in all games of course).  A perfect example of this is in the Indie Game Assault Android Cactus (I believe they have a free demo on steam if you want to test this out).  Using the keyboard if you press any of the WASD keys very quickly absolutely nothing will happen.  You will not move at all.  If you use a joystick or Aimpad you move immediately with no delay.  Also in that game if you use the keyboard there is a sense of inertia they have programmed so that even after you let go of pressing down one of the WASD keys you keep moving for a little bit.  Again, with Joystick or Aimpad you immediately stop moving because you are at 0,0.  Believe it or not, using an axis system is MORE precision than keyboard in terms of initiating or stopping movement.  Aimpad has the added benefit of being more precise in controlling your direction exactly (on the 90 and 45 degree angles) and immediately move in the opposite direction much better than a joystick.  You can still move in any of the 360 degree angles by holding in W all the way and slightly pressing in the D key for example, but the 90 and 45 degree angles are arguably the most important directions to consistently move in anyway.

In terms of the "modifier" keys the PGP software uses what is called "Shifts".  You can set up to 4 unique key layouts (they are color coordinated).  You can either press a key and hold it to initiate a Shift in that mode or you can program a key to be "sticky" and it will stay in that mode.  You can set one key to toggle between all the shifts, or you can set specific keys to control the different shifts.  It really is very well thought out software.

I have toyed with having different switch types on the "stand alone" Aimpad.  The current prototype I've been using actually uses Blacks for the analog keys and Blues for the digital keys.  It provides a nice tactile separation between them and adding different key cap colors to make it obvious is another one of the design plans.  This works well for a stand alone gaming system but typing with black on some keys and blue on others... that is a recipe for insanity.

Also, about the gif... yeah, that was me.  The original animation actually came from geekhack (I credited Lethal Squirrel) I just clearly suck at modifying existing animation but I think it effectively demonstrates the technology.

Please continue the discussion because just getting people to talk and think about the impact of this technology is success in my mind.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 April 2014, 13:47:25 by lmadsen »

Offline Lanx

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 19:35:43 »
why is it so damn ugly? is it the protype or the near production model? it's a flat thing... which would be ok if you're classifying it as a keyboard, but it's really classified as a gamepad, why is it flat as ****?

this reminds me of the
https://www.google.com/search?q=wolf+gamepaad&oq=wolf+gamepaad&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l4.3991j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=2&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

it just had different keyshapes and that whole circular thing

you have to try to get this thing to look like something like the razer orbweaver or something, drop by the ergonomic forums if you must.

there's nothing for the thumbs to do, other than to thwack a button.

Offline lmadsen

  • Posts: 5
Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 21:55:38 »
You are absolutely right.  It is completely a prototype... and completely ugly.  The enclosure was designed by our electrical engineer and he was concerned with just making something that held the electronics... not with anything else.  My thought was that in the current form we could demonstrate the technology and then use the Kickstarter process to get feedback as we began to shape it for ergonomics and attractiveness.  What I seem to be finding is that many people can't see past the fugliness and see the potential of the technology underneath.  So, just taking a stab at it what if we used something close to the left half of the Ergodox design?

Offline Lanx

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 23:18:33 »
Yes copy the left half of the ergo dox, make thumbs useful, are all the buttons analoge sensing or whatever, or just the wasd cluster?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 23:51:52 »
My thought was that in the current form we could demonstrate the technology and then use the Kickstarter process to get feedback as we began to shape it for ergonomics and attractiveness. What I seem to be finding is that many people can't see past the fugliness and see the potential of the technology underneath.
The problem is that kickstarter is partly a donation-gathering interest-check tool, and partly a way to order products. Someone isn’t going to want to commit to buying a product until they are convinced that it will be useful to them in the form they’ll get it. So if it looks ugly or whatever, it’s a much tougher sell.

I’m not an expert on Kickstarter campaigns, but my impression is that the best time to actually put in for kickstarter is after you have some working prototypes, relatively near to their final form (and ideally with a clear vision of what that will look like and explanation of what still needs to be figured out).

Many successful KS projects seem to be: "we have a working prototype, and now we just need some capital so we can mass-produce it". If the prototype isn’t worked out yet though, I think it might be too early.


Quote
So, just taking a stab at it what if we used something close to the left half of the Ergodox design?
I don’t think the Ergodox was tested enough in the real world against various hand shapes, etc. to really be an ideal design. It was more the hobby project of a few people, which then sort of took on a life of its own. But as far as I know there weren’t any ergonomics experts involved in the design.

I think you want to think carefully about hand anatomy: all the joints in the fingers, what kind of hand movements game players (or whatever target audience) tend to make, which of those are more efficient or less efficient, which are more stressful on the joints or less stressful, and then try to build a design which puts keys into positions which are as easy as possible for someone with average hands to reach (and then think about which design features will work or not for those with larger or smaller hands, etc.).

I think designing an optimized ergonomic controller is substantially harder than just making a full-sized keyboard: in the latter case you can just copy, and don’t have to think hard about layout or do your own research. Like, it could require months of full-time design work to develop an effective layout.

Offline lmadsen

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 00:01:47 »
Cool, that is the direction we are headed.  The analog keys will be the six keys QWEASD, which works well for analog direction for WASD and then the Q and E can be used for analog lean for games like ARMA and DayZ as well as yaw or roll for helicopters or jets in BF4.  We would also have at least two more analog keys that could be utilized for the pinky finger and thumb.  The more extensive utilization of the thumb is a critical feature.  Thanks for the feedback.

Offline SeeThruHead

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 03:17:08 »
I've been looking for a decent way to bring back analog control to the pc for a long while. I even went out and bought a used ms strategic commander. After that the wasdio was kickstarted but I think that failed. What I really want to develop for myself I'd a left hand ergodox that can be tilted like a joystick. Providing you analog movement control as well as a ton of keys to use. Which is something that is generally lacking in the left hand joystick implementation. To compliment the in would love to add a mouse sensor to the bottom of the ergodox right hand. You not sure of that would be of much use for gaming by for typing it would be great. You could use your mouse without even having to move off your home keys.

Analog buttons on a keyboard are interesting but I think a better approach is to combine the finger control and the wrist arm control that you have on the mouse over to the left hand.
    

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Offline majnu

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Re: Aimpad: Cherry MX + IR Distance Sensing
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 02:58:34 »
So if only 6 keys would use analog (WASDQE) it would be perfect using a TKL keyboard to house this in or a Nostramo.Logitech G15 ergonomic keypad if you are going for a gaming specific device.

Ergonomics are crucial and the current prototype looks ghastly to use imo. Something like the Orbweaver would be excellent where using your thumb would have more than one use other than resting on the space bar.