Author Topic: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets (GB completed) (Read 104088 times)

bjb39 · « **Reply #50 on:** Sat, 13 February 2016, 12:50:20 »

As an afterthought, I'd say definitely go with yellow or even your initial suggestion for the specialty kit... if specialty kit doesn't hit, as someone who's looking to put this on a WhiteFox, I might be out altogether (I have a TKL I could put this on, but I really want it for my WhiteFox). I can imagine that there are probably buyers in similar situations, and that's who you're really targeting with the specialty kit... people who have layouts that are a few keys off, but not outrageously different like Planck or Ergodox (if you're going to do an Ergo, let me know and I'll cancel my PuLSE buy

).

If base+specialty can fix Pok3r, HHKB (is there a way that can fit mx? I don't even know, but comments suggest it can), Leopold and similar 60%s, TKL, and most WhiteFox variants, I think you're in really good shape to hit a reasonable MOQ.

zslane · « **Reply #51 on:** Sat, 13 February 2016, 13:23:26 »

Here are the buyer categories I forsee:

1. Dasher only buyer. Has no interest in Dancer. Plays no role in whether or not Dancer hits MOQ.

2. Dancer only buyer. Has no interest in Dasher. Plays no role in whether or not Dasher hits MOQ.

3. Buyer of both sets. Contributes to the MOQ of both, hindering neither.

4. Buyer of either set, but only one of them. Helps only one set reach MOQ.

Am I missing a category?

The category that makes the math "interesting" is category 4. How do we imagine the total customer base distributes across these categories? My gut tells me that category 4 is small enough to not pose much risk to Dasher (the primary colorway) reaching MOQ if both colorways were to be offered together.

However, I am perfectly content to offer up only one set at first. In fact, chances could be very high that MassDrop will only want to run Dasher alone, at least for a first round. We could always offer Dancer as a PMK set later on (I'm already hoping to run subsequent Dasher rounds on PMK instead of MassDrop anyway).

zslane · « **Reply #52 on:** Sat, 13 February 2016, 13:31:36 »

Nobody is matching the HHKB layout 100% with SA keycaps since there is no 6u spacebar available, so targeting that layout is never going to be a perfect bullseye in any case. I don't know what people really mean when they look to buy SA keycaps for an "HHKB layout," so I don't know how to help them achieve their goals with the SPECIALTY kit. I think reaching out to White Fox users makes more sense, but like I said I'm no expert in this area. I greatly appreciate everyone's input.

zslane · « **Reply #53 on:** Sat, 13 February 2016, 15:47:37 »

Actually, if I were inclined to "do the math", I would set the variables like this:

A = % of SPECIALTY kit buyers only willing to order the Dasher version.
B = % of SPECIALTY kit buyers only willing to order the Dancer version.
C = % of SPECIALTY kit buyers who intend to order both versions.
D = % of SPECIALTY kit buyers who will only buy one version, prefer the Dasher version, but would be willing to order the Dancer version if that were the only viable option.
E = % of SPECIALTY kit buyers with a preference for the Dancer version but would order the Dasher version if the Dancer version weren't available, or would switch their order to the Dasher version if the Dancer version didn't look like it was going to tip.
F = % of SPECIALTY kit buyers with a preference for the Dancer version, but would order the Dasher version if the Dancer version weren't available, and would not switch to the Dasher version if the Dancer version didn't look like it was going to tip.

We have to imagine a scenario where given a total of x orders of SPECIALTY kits, that Ax + Cx + Dx + Ex is less than about 22 and where adding Fx to the total brings it up to at least 22. I'm guessing that the "danger zone"--where we split the vote between E and F--is when x is somewhere around 25-27. Fewer than 25 total orders and even throwing in Fx won't help the Dasher version tip anyway, whereas 28 or more and Fx isn't needed to help the Dasher version reach 22 orders. That's a pretty narrow window of risk.

iss · « **Reply #54 on:** Sat, 13 February 2016, 22:37:52 »

Quote from: zslane on Sat, 13 February 2016, 13:31:36

Nobody is matching the HHKB layout 100% with SA keycaps since there is no 6u spacebar available, so targeting that layout is never going to be a perfect bullseye in any case. I don't know what people really mean when they look to buy SA keycaps for an "HHKB layout," so I don't know how to help them achieve their goals with the SPECIALTY kit. I think reaching out to White Fox users makes more sense, but like I said I'm no expert in this area. I greatly appreciate everyone's input.

When I mention HHKB layout, I'm specifically referring to split backspace (which needs the R1 1u |\ key and the R2 1.5u Delete key) and the split right shift (which needs the R4 1.75u Shift and R4 1u Fn). "True" HHKB layouts on MX are rare since 6u spacebars are rare; those who try usually just go 7u spacebar, which is just a typical winkeyless bottom row.

I think solely running Dasher for now might be a good idea. If there's demand, perhaps Dancer base kit could be offered, but I have a hard time seeing both colorways of the extra kits dropping.

rowdy · « **Reply #55 on:** Sat, 13 February 2016, 22:50:32 »

Let's see if there ism ore interest this time.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65864.0

bjb39 · « **Reply #56 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 06:26:55 »

[deleted]

zslane · « **Reply #57 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 13:58:46 »

How about this line-up?

iss · « **Reply #58 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 14:20:18 »

Add BBJ spacebars and we're good to go. I'd still drop the R4 1u Shift, but that's up to you.

BwackDwagon · « **Reply #59 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 14:33:37 »

Wow this kit is beautiful. Reminds me of Mega Man..

zslane · « **Reply #60 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 15:56:07 »

Quote from: iss on Sun, 14 February 2016, 14:20:18

Add BBJ spacebars and we're good to go. I'd still drop the R4 1u Shift, but that's up to you.

I agree with you on the R4 1u Shift. As I go back through the DT thread, I realize now that such a Shift key is pretty useless without an R4 1u DEL key which is not in the kit. I'll dump it.

Good call on the BBJ spacebars. Let's simply assume that spacebars of both colors will be made available ala carte, even if we don't put up a Dancer set.

zslane · « **Reply #61 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 15:59:38 »

Oh, one thing I'd like to point out: I put the MENU key into the OSMODS kit and replaced it with the OS-neutral (and more retro) META key in the TKL (base) kit.

zslane · « **Reply #62 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 17:48:41 »

Latest revision:

zslane · « **Reply #63 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 17:55:46 »

So one thing I'd like to discuss is "Poker support". To my mind, this means offering the following three keys in the SPECIALTY kit:

1. 1.25u FN key
2. 1.25u PN key
3. 1.75u FN key (replaces Caps Lock)

Currently, the SPECIALTY kit has two out of the three. I kind of feel that we should either provide full support (i.e., all three keys) or not bother at all. I'm a Poker user and so I admit I am biased, but I get the impression that Pokers are very popular, and so maybe supporting them has merit. Doing so, however, would require adding a 1.25u PN key to the kit. On the other hand, eliminating Poker support would make the SPECIALTY kit two keys lighter.

Thoughts?

iss · « **Reply #64 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:11:59 »

As I stated earlier, my main opposition against including the Poker keys is that the SPECIALTY kit is entirely optional for Poker users- the only reason to buy it is legend accuracy. Given that the SPECIALTY kit will probably be hanging around $40-50 even if it hits higher MOQs, I doubt many owners will actually spring for it.

LXXXIX · « **Reply #65 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:27:22 »

Why is the up arrow not row 4?

zslane · « **Reply #66 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:39:30 »

From observation, it seemed that the arrow clusters of most SA sets were all row 3, so that's the default I went with. For those who want their arrows to be sculptured, there is the ARROWS kit, which isn't very expensive. Moreover, not everyone likes their up arrow to be row 4. Some like it to be row 2 with the row under it being row 4 so that they form their own scooped valley, as it were. I figured it was safest to go with all row 3 in the base kit and then let people put together their preferred (alternate) formations using the ARROWS kit.

zslane · « **Reply #67 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:48:52 »

Quote from: iss on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:11:59

As I stated earlier, my main opposition against including the Poker keys is that the SPECIALTY kit is entirely optional for Poker users- the only reason to buy it is legend accuracy. Given that the SPECIALTY kit will probably be hanging around $40-50 even if it hits higher MOQs, I doubt many owners will actually spring for it.

That's a fair point. Is that why you also oppose the addition of the 1.75u Control key?

iss · « **Reply #68 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:03:57 »

Quote from: zslane on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:48:52

Quote from: iss on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:11:59
As I stated earlier, my main opposition against including the Poker keys is that the SPECIALTY kit is entirely optional for Poker users- the only reason to buy it is legend accuracy. Given that the SPECIALTY kit will probably be hanging around $40-50 even if it hits higher MOQs, I doubt many owners will actually spring for it.

That's a fair point. Is that why you also oppose the addition of the 1.75u Control key?

Control's an in-between key for me- it's pretty widely used (since it's available as a DIP switch on many boards, and otherwise very commonly done via software) but really just a nicety. That being said, it's in nearly every alternate-layout kit these days, so including it would probably be a good idea.

LXXXIX · « **Reply #69 on:** Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:08:35 »

Quote from: zslane on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:39:30

From observation, it seemed that the arrow clusters of most SA sets were all row 3, so that's the default I went with. For those who want their arrows to be sculptured, there is the ARROWS kit, which isn't very expensive. Moreover, not everyone likes their up arrow to be row 4. Some like it to be row 2 with the row under it being row 4 so that they form their own scooped valley, as it were. I figured it was safest to go with all row 3 in the base kit and then let people put together their preferred (alternate) formations using the ARROWS kit.

Okay makes sense. This looks nice! Good luck.

Niomosy · « **Reply #70 on:** Mon, 15 February 2016, 01:23:23 »

Though I prefer the Dancer colorway, I wouldn't complain at having Dasher run first if it means hitting MoQ for kits. Though with the simplicity of these kits, I'm hoping MoQ isn't so tricky to hit.

bjb39 · « **Reply #71 on:** Mon, 15 February 2016, 10:24:56 »

These kits look great now. Awesome work zslane!

zslane · « **Reply #72 on:** Mon, 15 February 2016, 10:29:00 »

Yeah, I think we're getting real close now:

BlackTriStar · « **Reply #73 on:** Mon, 15 February 2016, 11:21:45 »

Can you keep the 2.25u shift in the specialty kit for FC660M/C users?

zslane · « **Reply #74 on:** Mon, 15 February 2016, 11:40:00 »

I originally had it there for F660M users, but the feeling was that the those few F660M users out there could buy/trade with ISO users, none of whom will need their 2.25u Shift keys.

When it comes to the SPECIALTY kit, I sort of feel that it isn't so much me you have to convince, but the rest of the community; they know better than I how to configure such kits for reaching MOQ. It is the one kit I am especially keen on letting democracy shape its contents, for better or for worse.

BlackTriStar · « **Reply #75 on:** Mon, 15 February 2016, 22:56:32 »

Sounds great and could save money if one could get an ISO user's shift. I'm iffy about putting up money and hoping in six months that someone wants to part with theirs and get it shipped internationally. It also lowers the amount of people joining the specialty kit (though it may only be a few).

Looking at the last handful of SA group buys:
- Pulse, Nantucket Selectric, Carbon included a 2.25u shift in a mod/compatibility kit
- Danger Zone had an available option in a novelty kit.
- Troubled minds and Jukebox had no 2.25u shift or alternative key

All the kits reached at least 120 orders, but they were also at least $10 less expensive at 50 MOQ sometimes for more keys (Pulse). Guessing that's a side effect of the new SP pricing?

bjb39 · « **Reply #76 on:** Tue, 16 February 2016, 16:09:53 »

I'd suggest getting this in motion as a GB soon. The Amazing Chocolatier might take your June spot on the SP schedule otherwise.

roostrc0gburn · « **Reply #77 on:** Tue, 16 February 2016, 17:19:55 »

Quote from: zslane on Mon, 15 February 2016, 11:40:00

I originally had it there for F660M users, but the feeling was that the those few F660M users out there could buy/trade with ISO users, none of whom will need their 2.25u Shift keys.

When it comes to the SPECIALTY kit, I sort of feel that it isn't so much me you have to convince, but the rest of the community; they know better than I how to configure such kits for reaching MOQ. It is the one kit I am especially keen on letting democracy shape its contents, for better or for worse.

+1 for FC660M in specialty kit. imho, that's where all the weird keys should go. ISO should be separated by an entire ocean!

iss · « **Reply #78 on:** Tue, 16 February 2016, 18:44:11 »

Guess I'll reluctantly get behind the extra 2.25u Shift- with the Clueboard's release, perhaps a few extra SPECIALTY kits can be sold.

zslane · « **Reply #79 on:** Tue, 16 February 2016, 22:50:31 »

Okay, the 2.25u Shift goes back in.

I'm going to call the set locked now and see if I can get it picked up by MassDrop.

Stay tuned!

simonyunhe · « **Reply #80 on:** Tue, 16 February 2016, 22:52:20 »

Quote from: zslane on Tue, 16 February 2016, 22:50:31

Okay, the 2.25u Shift goes back in.

I'm going to call the set locked now and see if I can get it picked up by MassDrop.

Stay tuned!

Cool!

bjb39 · « **Reply #81 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 07:47:57 »

Quote from: zslane on Tue, 16 February 2016, 22:50:31

I'm going to call the set locked now and see if I can get it picked up by MassDrop.

So excited for this!

My_Thoughts · « **Reply #82 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:30:24 »

Quote from: bjb39 on Tue, 16 February 2016, 16:09:53

I'd suggest getting this in motion as a GB soon. The Amazing Chocolatier might take your June spot on the SP schedule otherwise.

According to the reddit post Amazing Chocolatier is already scheduled

bjb39 · « **Reply #83 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:46:39 »

Quote from: My_Thoughts on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:30:24

According to the reddit post Amazing Chocolatier is already scheduled

Interesting. The Amazing Chocolatier doesn't appear on their "official" schedule, and it seems like they've removed the comment about Dasher/Dancer being scheduled for June

I don't see anything in the Reddit thread about it being scheduled though... there's a comment from MiTo that looks like he's saying The Amazing Chocolatier is scheduled, but he's talking about Sci-Fi R2.

Dernubenfrieken · « **Reply #84 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 09:20:22 »

Quote from: bjb39 on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:46:39

Quote from: My_Thoughts on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:30:24
According to the reddit post Amazing Chocolatier is already scheduled

Interesting. The Amazing Chocolatier doesn't appear on their "official" schedule, and it seems like they've removed the comment about Dasher/Dancer being scheduled for June

I don't see anything in the Reddit thread about it being scheduled though... there's a comment from MiTo that looks like he's saying The Amazing Chocolatier is scheduled, but he's talking about Sci-Fi R2.

Mito says a lot of stuff. He claimed godspeed was scheduled too, along with elementos reboot. Not to mention his mystery gmk set.

I wouldn't be surprised if chocolate is quoted and in talks with massdrop though.

My_Thoughts · « **Reply #85 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 10:22:00 »

Quote from: bjb39 on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:46:39

Quote from: My_Thoughts on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:30:24
According to the reddit post Amazing Chocolatier is already scheduled

Interesting. The Amazing Chocolatier doesn't appear on their "official" schedule, and it seems like they've removed the comment about Dasher/Dancer being scheduled for June

I don't see anything in the Reddit thread about it being scheduled though... there's a comment from MiTo that looks like he's saying The Amazing Chocolatier is scheduled, but he's talking about Sci-Fi R2.

Ah sorry, my bad. I was skimming the reddit thread and I thought they meant Chocolatier was scheduled.

bjb39 · « **Reply #86 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 10:31:49 »

Quote from: Dernubenfrieken on Wed, 17 February 2016, 09:20:22

Mito says a lot of stuff. He claimed godspeed was scheduled too, along with elementos reboot. Not to mention his mystery gmk set.

I wouldn't be surprised if chocolate is quoted and in talks with massdrop though.

Yeah I don't know if we need to fire up the GeekHack MiTo hate machine. I was just saying that the comment was possibly not related to The Amazing Chocolatier.

Niomosy · « **Reply #87 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 16:17:04 »

Quote from: bjb39 on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:46:39

Quote from: My_Thoughts on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:30:24
According to the reddit post Amazing Chocolatier is already scheduled

Interesting. The Amazing Chocolatier doesn't appear on their "official" schedule, and it seems like they've removed the comment about Dasher/Dancer being scheduled for June

I don't see anything in the Reddit thread about it being scheduled though... there's a comment from MiTo that looks like he's saying The Amazing Chocolatier is scheduled, but he's talking about Sci-Fi R2.

They list it as "quoted" which is really the more accurate description. That way they've got flexibility in slot assignment based on orders actually going through.

bjb39 · « **Reply #88 on:** Wed, 17 February 2016, 21:47:32 »

Quote from: Niomosy on Wed, 17 February 2016, 16:17:04

They list it as "quoted" which is really the more accurate description. That way they've got flexibility in slot assignment based on orders actually going through.

I know, but it used to be listed as "expected completion June".

Niomosy · « **Reply #89 on:** Thu, 18 February 2016, 01:02:55 »

Quote from: bjb39 on Wed, 17 February 2016, 21:47:32

Quote from: Niomosy on Wed, 17 February 2016, 16:17:04
They list it as "quoted" which is really the more accurate description. That way they've got flexibility in slot assignment based on orders actually going through.

I know, but it used to be listed as "expected completion June".

Quite true. It's something I found odd, actually. A lot of times, those quotes go to sets that are rather delayed or never happen. The updated method of noting that it was quoted seems more logical to me. Though I suspect they've got a slot estimation they still do behind the scenes just to have an idea of what's coming.

Niomosy · « **Reply #90 on:** Tue, 23 February 2016, 16:55:02 »

Quote from: Dernubenfrieken on Wed, 17 February 2016, 09:20:22

Quote from: bjb39 on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:46:39
Quote from: My_Thoughts on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:30:24
According to the reddit post Amazing Chocolatier is already scheduled

Interesting. The Amazing Chocolatier doesn't appear on their "official" schedule, and it seems like they've removed the comment about Dasher/Dancer being scheduled for June

I don't see anything in the Reddit thread about it being scheduled though... there's a comment from MiTo that looks like he's saying The Amazing Chocolatier is scheduled, but he's talking about Sci-Fi R2.

Mito says a lot of stuff. He claimed godspeed was scheduled too, along with elementos reboot. Not to mention his mystery gmk set.

I wouldn't be surprised if chocolate is quoted and in talks with massdrop though.

Seems Massdrop is a bit slow on the replies right now.

need · « **Reply #91 on:** Tue, 23 February 2016, 18:31:28 »

This looks great, any news from SP yet?

zslane · « **Reply #92 on:** Wed, 24 February 2016, 15:32:15 »

I'm not waiting on SP at this point. I'm waiting to hear from livingspeedbump, who is my MassDrop facilitator, so to speak. He seems to have disappeared though.

Niomosy · « **Reply #93 on:** Wed, 24 February 2016, 16:09:47 »

Quote from: zslane on Wed, 24 February 2016, 15:32:15

I'm not waiting on SP at this point. I'm waiting to hear from livingspeedbump, who is my MassDrop facilitator, so to speak. He seems to have disappeared though.

Massdrop also seems to be quite busy and seem to be slow at getting back to people. Yet I see them on /r/MK posting about the rerun of 1976.

Hopefully all is well with livingspeedbump.

bjb39 · « **Reply #94 on:** Thu, 25 February 2016, 14:25:30 »

Quote from: zslane on Wed, 24 February 2016, 15:32:15

I'm not waiting on SP at this point. I'm waiting to hear from livingspeedbump, who is my MassDrop facilitator, so to speak. He seems to have disappeared though.

Seems like he's active on reddit.

Niomosy · « **Reply #95 on:** Fri, 26 February 2016, 23:50:16 »

Well, if nothing else, I've never had to deal with MassDrop but I can help out there if need be seeing as I've been wanting this colorway for years now.

MassdropYanbo · « **Reply #96 on:** Sat, 27 February 2016, 01:59:46 »

Oh, you guys can totally feel free to PM me here by the way.

Hope to see a few of you at the meetup later

Also, beautiful set, I've had my eye on it since the Deskthority post

bjb39 · « **Reply #97 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 09:38:24 »

Any updates zslane? I want this set so bad

zslane · « **Reply #98 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 12:05:24 »

I PM'ed livingspeedbump again. Hoping to hear from him soon.

drpatrickbateman · « **Reply #99 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 12:19:28 »

I know its really late, but I'm definitely interested in this as well.

News:

Author Topic: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets (GB completed) (Read 104088 times)