[IC] NovelPro - A New Keycap Profile from NovelKeys

[SpectreiiI]

IMO there does need to be a small difference in height, otherwise it becomes too similar to a uniform profile. Although this is very much a matter of personal preference.

One thing I would change is to make the height difference more consistent between rows. Currently there's a huge step down from R4 to R5, while there's pretty much no step between R0 and R1.

The diagram shows what I mean. Cherry profile does have a reasonably consistent step size between rows.

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That is an astute observation. The step on this profile is in fact consistent (with exception to the first row). All steps are simply justified to the base angle of the board, as opposed to each row being justified according to the difference in angle from the previous row. Thanks for the feedback.

[Shados]

Make a spherical profile where every key is deep-dish and you'll get a lifetime supply of purchases from me .

[dr_derivative]

IMO there does need to be a small difference in height, otherwise it becomes too similar to a uniform profile. Although this is very much a matter of personal preference.

One thing I would change is to make the height difference more consistent between rows. Currently there's a huge step down from R4 to R5, while there's pretty much no step between R0 and R1.

The diagram shows what I mean. Cherry profile does have a reasonably consistent step size between rows.

Show Image

That is an astute observation. The step on this profile is in fact consistent (with exception to the first row). All steps are simply justified to the base angle of the board, as opposed to each row being justified according to the difference in angle from the previous row. Thanks for the feedback.

Ah, I hadn't realised it was intentional. MT3 profile has a somewhat similar sculpt, although yours looks better IMO.

I think many sculpted profiles are modelled after the keycaps on the Model F/M which have a curved plate and therefore inherently have a consistent step size.

I have no idea if your sculpt is better/worse in terms of ergonomics or typing feel, it just looks a bit off (to me anyway).

[sevenseacat]

  * I am looking to have a good sized compatibility kit with the exceptions of really obscure - such as colemak, dvorak, and nordic. At least to start off that is.

*cries in Colemak

[wetnwylde]

  * I am looking to have a good sized compatibility kit with the exceptions of really obscure - such as colemak, dvorak, and nordic. At least to start off that is.

*cries in Colemak

So my mom was a system's analyst, and she specifically instructed me to learn qwerty because "if you learn another layout, you will look like an idiot when you have to use someone else's terminal". Little did she know...

Long story short, everything in me screams to take advantage of the more efficient layout, but I'm sure glad I listened because keebs.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[SpectreiiI]

Ah, I hadn't realised it was intentional. MT3 profile has a somewhat similar sculpt, although yours looks better IMO.

I think many sculpted profiles are modelled after the keycaps on the Model F/M which have a curved plate and therefore inherently have a consistent step size.

I have no idea if your sculpt is better/worse in terms of ergonomics or typing feel, it just looks a bit off (to me anyway).

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Mod row still is intentionally out of step, and function row is a half step, but everything else is dead nuts.

[jdcarpe]

Ah, I hadn't realised it was intentional. MT3 profile has a somewhat similar sculpt, although yours looks better IMO.

I think many sculpted profiles are modelled after the keycaps on the Model F/M which have a curved plate and therefore inherently have a consistent step size.

I have no idea if your sculpt is better/worse in terms of ergonomics or typing feel, it just looks a bit off (to me anyway).

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Mod row still is intentionally out of step, and function row is a half step, but everything else is dead nuts.

Beautiful

[dr_derivative]

Ah, I hadn't realised it was intentional. MT3 profile has a somewhat similar sculpt, although yours looks better IMO.

I think many sculpted profiles are modelled after the keycaps on the Model F/M which have a curved plate and therefore inherently have a consistent step size.

I have no idea if your sculpt is better/worse in terms of ergonomics or typing feel, it just looks a bit off (to me anyway).

Show Image

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Mod row still is intentionally out of step, and function row is a half step, but everything else is dead nuts.

That looks amazing

[SpectreiiI]

Ah, I hadn't realised it was intentional. MT3 profile has a somewhat similar sculpt, although yours looks better IMO.

I think many sculpted profiles are modelled after the keycaps on the Model F/M which have a curved plate and therefore inherently have a consistent step size.

I have no idea if your sculpt is better/worse in terms of ergonomics or typing feel, it just looks a bit off (to me anyway).

Show Image

Show Image

Mod row still is intentionally out of step, and function row is a half step, but everything else is dead nuts.

That looks amazing

Eh, I can spot all sorts of issues lol. Here is another

[mgsickler]

Things are moving along as quickly as I hoped for. So far the current projected timeline is about 6-8 months to start tooling and possibly have a prototype in hand.


I have way too many meetings scheduled, but things are looking great!


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[Cods]

Looks really interesting.
As an SA, model M and MT3 fan, a DSA tolerator, and a Cherry/DCS/OEM hater, I’m really interested in what you’ve put up so far.
I’d definitely support and buy a set, in the hope that it turns out (like MT3) to be a new profile that I like.

[zslane]

Looks like this will compete with DSS for the most part. I think the (marketplace) success of this will depend on how robust designer support is, how high quality the results are, and how reliable the manufacturing and order fulfillment is. One of the biggest reasons Signature Plastics gets so much of the custom (spherical) keycap business is that they know how to work with designers and their color options are unmatched. The other reason is their vendor relationship with MassDrop, which gets their product onto a lot of keyboards.

From looking at the renders, it seems like there is a row profile that is very nearly flat, which I think is a good idea. This gives designers the option of offering a flat set of bottom-row modifiers.

[wetnwylde]

...

[SpectreiiI]

Looks like this will compete with DSS for the most part. I think the (marketplace) success of this will depend on how robust designer support is, how high quality the results are, and how reliable the manufacturing and order fulfillment is. One of the biggest reasons Signature Plastics gets so much of the custom (spherical) keycap business is that they know how to work with designers and their color options are unmatched. The other reason is their vendor relationship with MassDrop, which gets their product onto a lot of keyboards.

From looking at the renders, it seems like there is a row profile that is very nearly flat, which I think is a good idea. This gives designers the option of offering a flat set of bottom-row modifiers.

This is valuable feedback.

Coming from this designers perspective, it has been excellent working with mike. I have no doubt that his consideration and diligence will serve set designers as well.

Yes, the qwerty row is level. This was intentional to allow the row profile to be used for other applications such as a uniform profile and that would include the bottom row. This is all of course theoretical. I'm just speaking from the design standpoint, and cannot speak to if/when such options would be available.

I love DSS, but it wont be competing unfortunately because it hasn't been produced in 25 years, for what reason I am not sure.

And... here is a new look at the latest revisions being made. Newest is in red. The old as seen in the tkl layout is grey.

[zslane]

I love DSS, but it wont be competing unfortunately because it hasn't been produced in 25 years, for what reason I am not sure.

That is changing:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=93584.0

[SpectreiiI]

I love DSS, but it wont be competing unfortunately because it hasn't been produced in 25 years, for what reason I am not sure.

That is changing:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=93584.0

That is great news!

[Techno Trousers]

That DSS sculpt looks awful based on the pictures. This project will blow it out of the water, especially with the option for a flat bottom row. I absolutely love that on my MT3 /dev/tty0 set.

[dr_derivative]

That DSS sculpt looks awful based on the pictures. This project will blow it out of the water, especially with the option for a flat bottom row. I absolutely love that on my MT3 /dev/tty0 set.

I think the DSS sculpt looks pretty good. It is quite an aggressive sculpt, so I can see why others mightn't like it.

DSS probably can have a flat bottom row too if the designer chooses. The pictures are 12344, but if 1.25u keys exist in any other profile they can be used instead. I guess we won't know for sure until the first new DSS sets are released ). I only use my thumb to hit the spacebar, so 12344 with a flipped spacebar looks perfect for me.

Regardless, this looks like it has a much more gentle sculpt, so it will probably suit some people better than DSS.

[wetnwylde]

That DSS sculpt looks awful based on the pictures. This project will blow it out of the water, especially with the option for a flat bottom row. I absolutely love that on my MT3 /dev/tty0 set.

I think the DSS sculpt looks pretty good. It is quite an aggressive sculpt, so I can see why others mightn't like it.

DSS probably can have a flat bottom row too if the designer chooses. The pictures are 12344, but if 1.25u keys exist in any other profile they can be used instead. I guess we won't know for sure until the first new DSS sets are released )

This looks like it has a much more gentle sculpt regardless, so it will probably suit some people more than DSS.

I also really like the look of dss. I've been asking SP for this profile for a while and their response has always been that they replaced is with sculpted sa because it wasn't popular. Considering how many people pan sa for it's lack of ergonomics, and the general consensus that dss is far more aesthetically pleasing, it kind of makes you wonder whether it might be a bit too aggresive. I guess the only people who know are the ones who have typed on it.

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[emenelopee]

Maybe it would be best to figure out a profile by elimination?

E.g. I think we can scratch Cylindrical sculpted, Cherry profile by GMK already checks all the boxes, it'd be a bold move to compete with them.
Low profile spherical sculpted is being done by evan as you pointed out.
High profile spehrical sculpted exists as SA by SP and Maxkeys. MT3 expanded this to the realm of PBT.
I guess that leaves us with either uniform cylindrical or high profile sculpted cylindrical

How about reverse-sculpted so it's like you're typing on the surface of a ball?

[MatchstickMan]

How about reverse-sculpted so it's like you're typing on the surface of a ball?

And reverse-sculpted side to side!!

[Kevadu]

I see no problem with this idea...

[Findecanor]

Some notes for details:
* Do design struts inside the keycaps at the right height to make them compatible with silencing O-rings and QMX clips. SA and DSA don't have this.
* Make sure that stabilised keys are thinner in the right places to make them compatible with different Costar-style stabilisers. Some original Cherry keycaps have problems on some keyboards. Many later keysets like Leopold's thick Cherry-profile do this right.
* Injection nipple is least visible if on the bottom.
* Keycaps that are shiny on the sides (regardless of texture on top) look the most vintage-like. I suppose this might be mostly a cost-issue though.

Is DSA really lower than cherry? I Always got the impression that cherry was lower, or at least most of the rows. Is it feasible to do a sculpted cylindrical keyset with a lower profile than cherry?

Cherry's home row keys are lower than DSA. Other keys are higher.
DSA is about as high as OEM profile home row.

Regardless of the ultimate profile that is chosen, it would be great if there were convex spacebars for the various split spacebar sizes: 2.75u, 2.25u, 2u, 1.75u, etc.

Personally I would like the bottom-row modifiers to also be convex, because I tend to press both Alt keys with my thumbs as well.

I am also a member of the school of thought that the angle of the ZXCV row should be larger than uniform. (DCS better, Cherry profile worse. Preferably the switches on the ZXCVB row should be angled more, but no Cherry MX keyboard is done that way)

[SpectreiiI]

Some notes for details:
* Do design struts inside the keycaps at the right height to make them compatible with silencing O-rings and QMX clips. SA and DSA don't have this.

Will do.

* Make sure that stabilised keys are thinner in the right places to make them compatible with different Costar-style stabilisers. Some original Cherry keycaps have problems on some keyboards. Many later keysets like Leopold's thick Cherry-profile do this right.

I don't believe this will be an issue, but I will make sure to test the prototypes with several variants and make the necessary changes if necessary.

* Injection nipple is least visible if on the bottom.

Check

* Keycaps that are shiny on the sides (regardless of texture on top) look the most vintage-like. I suppose this might be mostly a cost-issue though.

The sides on these will definitely be high gloss. It's actually a lot cheaper than textured.

Personally I would like the bottom-row modifiers to also be convex, because I tend to press both Alt keys with my thumbs as well.

This is unlikely, simply for cost issues.

I am also a member of the school of thought that the angle of the ZXCV row should be larger than uniform. (DCS better, Cherry profile worse. Preferably the switches on the ZXCVB row should be angled more, but no Cherry MX keyboard is done that way)

Stay tuned for the next revision...

[pixelpusher]

You know, fully convex bottom is is actually awesome.  I love my pingmaster for several reasons, but this one is up there in the top 3.  I'm not requesting it or anything, just rambling, really. hehe.

[Parva Ovis]

If I remember correctly, GMK and other cherry profile have issues with hitting leds in certain switch orientations, so it would be good for this profile to avoid that problem. I've only heard about it secondhand, though, no personal experience with that issue.

[SpectreiiI]

Revision 6 renders: Taller caps (.7mm on average), cherry step height (r2-r5), more aggressive sculpting (14.5 to -12.5 degrees), 13mm touch surface (1.1mm deep r2-4, .95mm deep r1,5,6), refined dishes... next up is legends.


in this design r1 is defined as the mod row, r6 being the function row

[BlindAssassin111]

That looks beautiful!!!

That dish is calling my name....will feel so damn good.

[yqliang]

Revision 6 renders: Taller caps (.7mm on average), cherry step height (r2-r5), more aggressive sculpting (14.5 to -12.5 degrees), 13mm touch surface (1.1mm deep), refined dishes... next up is legends.

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in this design r1 is defined as the mod row, r6 being the function row

Looks amazing!

[Techno Trousers]

Looks nice. Will you have an option for flat bottom row?

[SpectreiiI]

Looks nice. Will you have an option for flat bottom row?

I'm just the designer. As to what will be offered, mgsickler will make the final call. That said, Here are some renders to give you an idea of what it would look like. I will say that this revision has a much more aggressive sculpt than other sets you are probably used to. Because of this, I would think that an inverted r5 (6.5 degrees) would work far better than a r4 (0 degrees) bottom row. I have included a render of that as well for your digestion. Once again, I can't speak to what exactly is going to be offered, just theoretical here.

And with now with textured dishes...

Standard mod row


Alternate r4 (level) mod row


Alternate inverted r5 (6.5 degree) mod row


sorry for the difference in the lighting on the last one, I threw this together real quick.

[zslane]

For me the biggest issue with angled bottom row is that I don't like angled spacebars. The are uncomfortable on my thumbs when I type. So I always prefer flat spacebars, and pairing angled mods with a flat spacebar just looks bad. That's why I prefer set designs with a flat bottom row (or the option for one like /dev/tty, which offered both kinds of bottom row keycaps).

[mgsickler]

Flat bottom row will depend on what the tooling costs end up being. If I am able to, I would love to offer both options.

Meetings continue. Just had a very promising meeting with the tooling company. I wish I had more to say, but its going to be a slow, but steady, process.

[Techno Trousers]

I will say that this revision has a much more aggressive sculpt than other sets you are probably used to.

So far the only spherical Cherry mount profile I have experience with is MT3, so I'm not a stranger to aggressive sculpts.

[Techno Trousers]

For me the biggest issue with angled bottom row is that I don't like angled spacebars. The are uncomfortable on my thumbs when I type.

I'm the same way. I learned and use the "proper" form of touch typing, so I hit spacebar with the edge of my right thumb while keeping fingers positioned over the home row. So with an angled bottom row, I'm hitting the sharp edge of the space bar with my thumb every time.

[wetnwylde]

For me the biggest issue with angled bottom row is that I don't like angled spacebars. The are uncomfortable on my thumbs when I type.

I'm the same way. I learned and use the "proper" form of touch typing, so I hit spacebar with the edge of my right thumb while keeping fingers positioned over the home row. So with an angled bottom row, I'm hitting the sharp edge of the space bar with my thumb every time.

What if the spacebar was contoured in such a way that it essentially lines up with r5 like I rendered but had no rear edge?

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[Techno Trousers]

[What if the spacebar was contoured in such a way that it essentially lines up with r5 like I rendered but had no rear edge?

If the back edge was rounded off enough it might work, I guess, but I'm having trouble imagining exactly what you mean. To visualize the issue, think of the side of the thumb coming straight down onto the space bar, parallel to the plate. If an edge is sticking up, that's going to be an irritation over time.

The most uncomfortable space bar I ever experienced came with a vortex double shot PBT set. In that case, I flipped the space bar around. It looked pretty ridiculous, but worked perfectly.

[zslane]

Flat bottom row will depend on what the tooling costs end up being.

You already have a flat row profile. No need for another one (just for the bottom row). Just make sure you offer a flat spacebar and all is good.

[Techno Trousers]

Flat bottom row will depend on what the tooling costs end up being.

You already have a flat row profile. No need for another one (just for the bottom row). Just make sure you offer a flat spacebar and all is good.

A perfect summation. Bravo.

[SpectreiiI]

Flat bottom row will depend on what the tooling costs end up being.

You already have a flat row profile. No need for another one (just for the bottom row). Just make sure you offer a flat spacebar and all is good.

A perfect summation. Bravo.

It's actually quite a bit more complicated than that. Modifier dishes are (currently) half as deep as r4, and the spacebars are convex (obviously), so we are actually talking about an entirely new profile row.

[Harms]

I wonder what the name will be for this awesome profile. 

[Bubblegum]

I wonder what the name will be for this awesome profile. 

How about NVK or NKS for NovelKeys? Or since it's a collab' between Spectre and Mgsickler, maybe SxM (or the other way around). Just some quickfire ideas 

[KeLorean]

This looks very cool. Im excited to see this project become a reality.

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[SpectreiiI]

I wonder what the name will be for this awesome profile. 

How about NVK or NKS for NovelKeys? Or since it's a collab' between Spectre and Mgsickler, maybe SxM (or the other way around). Just some quickfire ideas 

  The internal name is SSS (triple-S), but I have no idea how it will be branded. I kind of like the sound of phonetic names more than codes though.

[dr_derivative]

I wonder what the name will be for this awesome profile. 

How about NVK or NKS for NovelKeys? Or since it's a collab' between Spectre and Mgsickler, maybe SxM (or the other way around). Just some quickfire ideas 

  The internal name is SSS (triple-S), but I have no idea how it will be branded. I kind of like the sound of phonetic names more than codes though.

I agree that an acronym won't stand out much when we already have SA, DSA, DSS, DCS, G20, XDA, HuB, MT3, etc.

Also, SSS just makes me think of snek )

[zslane]

It's actually quite a bit more complicated than that. Modifier dishes are (currently) half as deep as r4, and the spacebars are convex (obviously), so we are actually talking about an entirely new profile row.

The convex spacebar vs. concave modifiers issue is not a problem that needs solving, IMO. Sure, it would be super cool if there was a full convex profile, but it is not a necessity. Moreover, any keyset designer who wants to provide a flat bottom row can just use the flat profile you already have. If you want to invest in a different flat profile just for bottom row mods, knock yourself out. I'm just saying it isn't really that necessary and that keyset designers can get by just fine without it.

[SpectreiiI]

It's actually quite a bit more complicated than that. Modifier dishes are (currently) half as deep as r4, and the spacebars are convex (obviously), so we are actually talking about an entirely new profile row.

The convex spacebar vs. concave modifiers issue is not a problem that needs solving, IMO. Sure, it would be super cool if there was a full convex profile, but it is not a necessity. Moreover, any keyset designer who wants to provide a flat bottom row can just use the flat profile you already have. If you want to invest in a different flat profile just for bottom row mods, knock yourself out. I'm just saying it isn't really that necessary and that keyset designers can get by just fine without it.

I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I had intended that (for comfort reasons) the modifiers have a significantly shallower dish than the other keys. They don't necessarily have to be, but if they were and a flat bottom row was simply derived from r4's existing geometry, you would end up bottom row mods with deep dish and every other mod shallow. Furthermore, legends would have to be cut for both dish profiles, one for each bottom row.

That said, I understand that a flat spacebar option is very important (if not essential) to your comfort and a consistent bottom row is essential to proper aesthetics. If you are open to a potential alternative which could give you the typing experience that you are most comfortable with without necessarily needed a full flat row, I am working on something that could strike a balance and negate the need for two separate row options altogether.  And if that still doesn't meet your needs, there is always the option of just making the dishes uniform and doing as you have suggested.

At the end of the day, it is still quite early in development and a lot can and necessarily will change before production. It is my hope that this profile will not only meet your expectations, but exceed them, but it will be a while before anything is a surety one way or another.

Thanks for the feedback.

[zslane]

I wouldn’t mess around with dish depths just for “comfort” sake. Profile angles will have more impact on comfort, I feel, than dish depth. I would prioritize for angle options, even at the expense of trying to “optimize” dishing. I mean, if you find yourself concerned about the comfort of deep dishing, then I would suggest that deep dishing should be avoided all together, except maybe for homing keys. A middle-ground dish depth, somewhere between deep and shallow, should be plenty comfortable enough for all keys.

[SpectreiiI]

I wouldn’t mess around with dish depths just for “comfort” sake. Profile angles will have more impact on comfort, I feel, than dish depth. I would prioritize for angle options, even at the expense of trying to “optimize” dishing. I mean, if you find yourself concerned about the comfort of deep dishing, then I would suggest that deep dishing should be avoided all together, except maybe for homing keys. A middle-ground dish depth, somewhere between deep and shallow, should be plenty comfortable enough for all keys.

I "mess around" with every potential element. When capital costs are as high as they are for a product like this, it's a matter of due diligence. There is one thing that assures failure more than anything else. That is contempt prior to investigation.

[Techno Trousers]

Definitely worth it to try all possibilities before committing to tooling. Are you going to be able to run prototypes? I'd be happy to test if you need volunteers.