Author Topic: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making  (Read 296766 times)

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Offline damorgue

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 17 August 2012, 12:25:32 »
Did we get a date yet?

Offline funkymeeba

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 17 August 2012, 12:38:19 »
It will have a Mac version with clicky switches, the PC will have dampened quiet tactile switches.

Why would there be different switches for PC vs. Mac? I assumed they'd be offering either PC or Mac with both switches.

EDIT: I see where Matias pointed this out earlier in the thread. Still hoping for the clicky switches for PC, though. :(
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 August 2012, 13:56:28 by funkymeeba »
Quote
17:15 < vun> these are the healthiest crisps I've ever come across
17:16 < vun> mostly because I can't get the bag open

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Offline polpo

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 17 August 2012, 13:14:38 »
The keyboard you are looking at is based off the Matias Tactile Pro 3.  The new Tactile Pro 4 isn't even available to preorder/purchase yet.

Check the link. The Tactile Pro 4 is up for preorder.
Matias Mini Quiet Pro / DSI SMK-88 (Cherry Black) / IBM Model M (10 Jul 86) / ThinkPad Travel Keyboard with Ultranav

Offline funkymeeba

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 17 August 2012, 13:34:01 »
I did not see that there when I last looked. Awesome news! Are there any options when putting in for the pre-order, or is that something that Matias will have to get in touch with us about once submitted?
Quote
17:15 < vun> these are the healthiest crisps I've ever come across
17:16 < vun> mostly because I can't get the bag open

meebcats - my bad music

Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 21 August 2012, 19:17:38 »
Any confirmation on the release date? Will we be able to pre-order more layouts than just US?
Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline Matias

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UPDATE
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 21 August 2012, 20:53:52 »
Just want to give you all an update on the new switches and the new keyboards...

Production on the keyboards is happening now, and everything is looking really good.  It should all be done by the end of this month.  We expect to receive the shipment by around Sept 12th.

We're preparing web pages now.  I'll let you know soon when we'll be taking pre-orders, if you don't want to wait.  There are 3 keyboards being released with the following part numbers...

FK302 ............. Clicky ALPS switches - Mac layout - White case & keys
FK302Q .......... New quiet switches - Mac layout - Silver case with Black keys
FK302QPC ..... New quiet switches - PC layout - Black case & keys

Attached is a photo from the factory, showing the new switches on one of the first assembled units.

Let me know if you have any questions.
« Last Edit: Tue, 21 August 2012, 23:47:47 by Matias »

Offline dorkvader

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 21 August 2012, 22:43:04 »
Just want to give you all an update on the new switches and the new keyboards...

Production on the keyboards is happening this now, and everything is looking really good.  It should all be done by the end of this month.  We expect to receive the shipment by around Sept 12th.

We're preparing web pages now.  I'll let you know soon when we'll be taking pre-orders, if you don't want to wait.  There are 3 keyboards being released with the following part numbers...

FK302 ............. Clicky ALPS switches - Mac layout - White case & keys
FK302Q .......... New quiet switches - Mac layout - Silver case with Black keys
FK302QPC ..... New quiet switches - PC layout - Black case & keys

Attached is a photo from the factory, showing the new switches on one of the first assembled units.

Let me know if you have any questions.
I'm really digging that the plate is "bent over" at both sides (for more stability). Also, the fact that the PC version is black/black is pretty excellent, too.

I'm excited to see when these come out. I'm also interested in the 302QPC.

Offline alaricljs

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 00:00:04 »
Clear switch housings.... is in support of backlighting or it just happened that way?
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 00:23:04 »
Clear switch housings.... is in support of backlighting or it just happened that way?

It's to support the LED indicators on Caps Lock, Num Lock, and Scroll Lock keys.

It can also be used to support backlighting -- though the new keyboards are not backlit.

I'm really digging that the plate is "bent over" at both sides (for more stability). Also, the fact that the PC version is black/black is pretty excellent, too.

Yes, the consensus was that PC users wanted all black.  I was surprised at how good it looked in black.  Who knew.  :-)

The bent-over plate makes it stronger and quieter.  Everything is held together tighter, so there's nothing loose that can resonate.

Matias, thank you very much for the update!   I was already excited about this; however this past weekend I had the opportunity to sample some original Apple Extended keyboards and it only confirmed how awesome these new boards are going to be.  Yourself and the Engineers deserve a pat on the back for not only continuing to make Alps switches but to improve them beyond what the original designers envisioned.

Thanks for the kind words.  I will pass them along to the team.

Offline mkawa

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 01:52:01 »
sorry to bother you about this -- you're probably swamped right now (and excited; i would be!). but, any eta on the switch datasheets and samples kits?

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 02:08:37 »
sorry to bother you about this -- you're probably swamped right now (and excited; i would be!). but, any eta on the switch datasheets and samples kits?

Yes, swamped and excited.  :-)

Datasheets should be ready beginning of Sept, and sample kits end of Sept.

Offline mkawa

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 02:12:27 »
currently baiting breath :D

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline dirge

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 02:13:23 »
Very interested in this.  Will the pinning be the same as normal?  Would be great if a special ergodox revision board could be created for these :)
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Offline TheProfosist

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 03:42:37 »
I was thinking of getting my self an alps board as its the one switch I dont have a board of. This one seems to be the one to go with, i wonder what the keycaps are made of and how the legend was done.

Offline absyrd

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 10:43:43 »
Thanks for the update. I will definitely grab a PC version.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 11:23:32 »
I was thinking of getting my self an alps board as its the one switch I dont have a board of. This one seems to be the one to go with, i wonder what the keycaps are made of and how the legend was done.

Keycaps are ABS and legends are lasered.

Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 13:26:32 »
I was thinking of getting my self an alps board as its the one switch I dont have a board of. This one seems to be the one to go with, i wonder what the keycaps are made of and how the legend was done.

Keycaps are ABS and legends are lasered.

This question doesn't need to be answered right away, but you're checking the thread anyhow.
Will the boards be compatible with other keycaps? (from "old" alps boards) ?

Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 13:39:02 »
This question doesn't need to be answered right away, but you're checking the thread anyhow.
Will the boards be compatible with other keycaps? (from "old" alps boards) ?

It depends on which keyboard you're harvesting keycaps from.

For example, on the Apple Extended Keyboard, for the function keys, Apple mounted those switches rotated 90° (with the stems like this | rather than the standard way like this —).

Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 22 August 2012, 13:56:01 »
This question doesn't need to be answered right away, but you're checking the thread anyhow.
Will the boards be compatible with other keycaps? (from "old" alps boards) ?

It depends on which keyboard you're harvesting keycaps from.

For example, on the Apple Extended Keyboard, for the function keys, Apple mounted those switches rotated 90° (with the stems like this | rather than the standard way like this —).
I guess I wait before going on an alps shopping spree then.
Thanks for the info.
Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline TheProfosist

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 23 August 2012, 05:21:31 »
Was it said at one point that getting just the switches would be an option? As i know people are drumming up some interest in a custom alps board...

Offline Djuzuh

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 23 August 2012, 16:21:49 »
Was it said at one point that getting just the switches would be an option? As i know people are drumming up some interest in a custom alps board...

Yes.

Matias talked about something like 800 for 100$. :D

Offline Icarium

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 23 August 2012, 16:25:44 »
Which would be dirt cheap so let's hope they're good as well. :)
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Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 23 August 2012, 17:25:20 »
Might as well just read the OP.


"Price will be $100 for a box of 800 switches (12.5¢ per switch.)"
Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline TheProfosist

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Re: Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #73 on: Thu, 23 August 2012, 21:02:04 »
Which would be dirt cheap so let's hope they're good as well. :)
now we just need a custom board to stick them in.

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #74 on: Thu, 23 August 2012, 23:47:29 »
Yes, we will be selling the switches on our website, for people who want to do custom mods.

We're also considering selling them in quantities smaller than the 800 originally mentioned.  If we do sell smaller packs, they'd be 200 pcs.

Offline dirge

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 24 August 2012, 10:01:38 »
In for 200 white!
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Offline alaricljs

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #76 on: Fri, 24 August 2012, 10:30:06 »
They're both white.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline dirge

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 24 August 2012, 10:36:45 »
Sorry thought one was orange, okay in for 200 clicky?...
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Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 24 August 2012, 23:35:54 »
The orange color was changed to white.  So there are white quiet tactile and white clicky.

Definitely a racist switch.

Really looking forward to reading hate mail from all those people with fake tans...  :)

Offline damorgue

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #79 on: Fri, 24 August 2012, 23:38:10 »
Are the switches somewhat similar? Can they be replaced with each other easily? Any plans for PBT caps?

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #80 on: Fri, 24 August 2012, 23:45:52 »
Are the switches somewhat similar? Can they be replaced with each other easily?

Yes, they are plug compatible with standard ALPS switches.  They can be soldered into any ALPS board.

Any plans for PBT caps?

No plans for PBT caps.  Not sure what the big attraction is for those.

Offline rayuki

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 25 August 2012, 00:46:15 »
guess im gonna have to start saving for ANOTHER board lol that orange super quiet switch keyboard sounds very exciting for my late night keyboarding lol

Offline Djuzuh

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #82 on: Sat, 25 August 2012, 03:07:41 »
Are the switches somewhat similar? Can they be replaced with each other easily?

Yes, they are plug compatible with standard ALPS switches.  They can be soldered into any ALPS board.

Any plans for PBT caps?

No plans for PBT caps.  Not sure what the big attraction is for those.

PBT is a lot more durable than ABS.

It doesn't get yellow as fast.

Offline TheProfosist

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Re: Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #83 on: Sat, 25 August 2012, 03:32:15 »
Are the switches somewhat similar? Can they be replaced with each other easily?

Yes, they are plug compatible with standard ALPS switches.  They can be soldered into any ALPS board.

Any plans for PBT caps?

No plans for PBT caps.  Not sure what the big attraction is for those.

PBT is a lot more durable than ABS.

It doesn't get yellow as fast.
its also rougher and feels better on the fingers

Offline Matt3o

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #84 on: Sat, 25 August 2012, 04:48:53 »
no tenkeyless love, right?

maybe it's time I start digging into keyboard modding... would the keys fit into a filco case?

Offline TheProfosist

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 25 August 2012, 05:16:39 »
no tenkeyless love, right?

maybe it's time I start digging into keyboard modding... would the keys fit into a filco case?
they ight you would have to redo the entire PCB though.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #86 on: Sat, 25 August 2012, 08:35:18 »
The orange color was changed to white.  So there are white quiet tactile and white clicky.

Definitely a racist switch.

Really looking forward to reading hate mail from all those people with fake tans...  :)
I'll start composing mine now :P

PBT is the best! It's got higher hardness (and therefore better wear resistance), better corrosion resistance, etc. The dye sublimation technique is very versatile. In a keyboard where the switches won't wear out until several decades, why have keycaps that'll be completely gone in a few short years?

Do POM/PBT ALPS keycaps exist at all? You could have something unique.

Still, the keyswitches are really cool. I especially like the clear casings on them. It screams "SMD LED under the keyswitch" to me!

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #87 on: Sun, 26 August 2012, 03:34:11 »
I see that Signature Plastics sells PBT caps for ALPS.

We use the same keycap vendor as Filco, so it should be easy enough to source caps, for anyone who wants them.

I'll look into PBT caps more, but from what I've read so far, there doesn't seem to be much difference.  For what it's worth, this page claims that they're more prone to cracking and no less resistant than ABS to turning shiny...



Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #88 on: Sun, 26 August 2012, 05:31:40 »
I see that Signature Plastics sells PBT caps for ALPS.

We use the same keycap vendor as Filco, so it should be easy enough to source caps, for anyone who wants them.

I'll look into PBT caps more, but from what I've read so far, there doesn't seem to be much difference.  For what it's worth, this page claims that they're more prone to cracking and no less resistant than ABS to turning shiny...




PBT costs more, we like spending.
Also, some people prefer the feel of PBT caps over ABS.

I prefer ABS.
Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline damorgue

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #89 on: Sun, 26 August 2012, 11:20:49 »
I find the difference in how easy they get shiny to be huge. I have never been able to get a PBT caps shiny. They don't get yellow at all either, even though that doesn't happen very fast with ABS either and is more of a problem once the keyboard gets really old. I don't feel any noteworthy difference in feel but the resistance shinyness is a big enough factor for me. I hate having two shiny spots on the space bar.

Offline N8N

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #90 on: Tue, 28 August 2012, 19:22:13 »

Do POM/PBT ALPS keycaps exist at all? You could have something unique.


I'm pretty sure that the SGI Granite has PBT dye-subs.  Either that or they are just spectacularly crisp, durable, and non-yellowing.  If I had to guess I'd say that the space bar is ABS though.
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)

Offline dorkvader

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #91 on: Tue, 28 August 2012, 21:03:19 »
I see that Signature Plastics sells PBT caps for ALPS.

We use the same keycap vendor as Filco, so it should be easy enough to source caps, for anyone who wants them.

I'll look into PBT caps more, but from what I've read so far, there doesn't seem to be much difference.  For what it's worth, this page claims that they're more prone to cracking and no less resistant than ABS to turning shiny...



PBT is harder (Higher youngs modulus, etc.) and as a result, more brittle. This is very frequently the case with materials. I believe that \KL (Keyboardlover) is incorrect when he says "There is a common misconception that PBT is less prone to becoming "shiny" over time than ABS, but this has been proven to be false." Who hav proved this? Where are their results. Another member did some testing, and while his test was less than 100% rigorously scientific, it does have merit. \KL is often at odds with that person, so he may have put it there. Another member, who reported putting 2,000,000,000+ keystrokes into akeyboard (and replacing the parts as they broke) said that he wore through his ABS doubleshot keycaps on his cherry keyboard much faster than the PBT on his IBM.

One good way to look at plastic wear is to examine spacebars. For example, the spacebar on my unicomp sees daily use, and it is nearly two years old, with no wear. I have some ABS spacebars that are showing some signs of wear after 6 months or so of use.

If you drop your keyboard, or hammer keycaps, you stand an easy chance of shattering the more brittle PBT, but this is because it is much harder, and therefore more wear resistant than ABS.

There are many legitimate reasons to have PBT, though I must say I prefer them for purely aesthetic ones as well.

Offline sth

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #92 on: Tue, 28 August 2012, 21:07:03 »
The correct answer is that the AEKII used PBT keycaps, so Matias boards should too :D
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #93 on: Tue, 28 August 2012, 23:38:09 »
PBT is harder (Higher youngs modulus, etc.) and as a result, more brittle. This is very frequently the case with materials. I believe that \KL (Keyboardlover) is incorrect when he says "There is a common misconception that PBT is less prone to becoming "shiny" over time than ABS, but this has been proven to be false." Who hav proved this? Where are their results. Another member did some testing, and while his test was less than 100% rigorously scientific, it does have merit. \KL is often at odds with that person, so he may have put it there. Another member, who reported putting 2,000,000,000+ keystrokes into akeyboard (and replacing the parts as they broke) said that he wore through his ABS doubleshot keycaps on his cherry keyboard much faster than the PBT on his IBM.

One good way to look at plastic wear is to examine spacebars. For example, the spacebar on my unicomp sees daily use, and it is nearly two years old, with no wear. I have some ABS spacebars that are showing some signs of wear after 6 months or so of use.

If you drop your keyboard, or hammer keycaps, you stand an easy chance of shattering the more brittle PBT, but this is because it is much harder, and therefore more wear resistant than ABS.

There are many legitimate reasons to have PBT, though I must say I prefer them for purely aesthetic ones as well.

Okay, thanks for the detailed feedback.  We're looking into it.  Will keep you posted.

Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 29 August 2012, 13:57:50 »
Now that I think about it I'm curious why I didn't think of this before...

Is it possible to make Alps>Cherry keycap stem converters?

It won't be possible unless you would mod the switches.
Making a little piece of plastic that would sit between the cherry cap and the alps switch would take up way to much space.
Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline xJaPx

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #95 on: Thu, 30 August 2012, 12:07:50 »
new switches eh?  not sure how i missed this thread for so long...  Regardless, amazing innovation matias

any thoughts on creating something with a lighter actuation than a red?  like a nice linear 30-35g switch that isn't $400 and only available ni japan ?   :)
| Poker MX Red |

Offline __red__

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #96 on: Thu, 30 August 2012, 14:58:57 »
Waiting with baited breath on the switches.

Matias, I'm running an open-source MIDI controller where each device has a scalable number of keyswitches (currently 192 in the prototypes).  I'm basing them around the cherry MX black currently.

If I can get a sample non-clicky / non-tactile switch to test with, at 800 switches for $100 it would cut the cost of the project substantially.

Awaiting with the baiting breath.

Thanks,


__red__

Offline trax

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 30 August 2012, 15:03:07 »
Waiting with baited breath on the switches.

Matias, I'm running an open-source MIDI controller where each device has a scalable number of keyswitches (currently 192 in the prototypes).  I'm basing them around the cherry MX black currently.

If I can get a sample non-clicky / non-tactile switch to test with, at 800 switches for $100 it would cut the cost of the project substantially.

Awaiting with the baiting breath.

Thanks,


__red__


According to the OP, botch switches are tactile.
Switches tried so far
Cherry MX Red Blue Black Clear
ALPS White Black (fake)Blue
Montereys
ACER
White Black
Futaba
Buckling Sprin

Offline dorkvader

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #98 on: Thu, 30 August 2012, 23:39:17 »
Waiting with baited breath on the switches.

Matias, I'm running an open-source MIDI controller where each device has a scalable number of keyswitches (currently 192 in the prototypes).  I'm basing them around the cherry MX black currently.

If I can get a sample non-clicky / non-tactile switch to test with, at 800 switches for $100 it would cut the cost of the project substantially.

Awaiting with the baiting breath.

Thanks,


__red__


According to the OP, botch switches are tactile.
But if they could be modded easily to linear, then this will work out well.

Either way, I like tactile switches, and I'm excited for the upcoming release.

If the production switches look any different than the prototype you posted, can I buy some of the old prototypes? I'm always interested in that sort of thing. I will, of course, be buying some of the new switches, regardless.

Offline Matias

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Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #99 on: Fri, 31 August 2012, 04:06:58 »
Thanks for the comments, everyone...

We're working on getting the web pages up as soon as possible, so you can order.

We don't currently have plans to do a linear switch.  The closest we'd likely do to linear is the old Black simplified ALPS switches.  They were non-clickly but gave better feedback than Cherry Browns.

I don't know how popular those switches were, but I always liked them.  They were a nice middle ground.