Ergonomics Checklist - What's the next step?

[DanielJanzon]

Hi!

After writing for a while I get ache in my hands. On a normal keyboard 10 min is enough. With TEK/Ergodox, it's much better, but still not perfect. So what further modifications can I perform to ameliorate the problem? I'm focusing on the keyboard now; pointing devices, taking breaks etc is another discussion. My check list so far is

• Get a decent keyboard (done)
• Basic typing skill, e.g. use all fingers, etc (done)
• Learn a different key layout like Dvorak (investigating)
• Find your favourite switches (done - cherry MX brown)
• Get textured key caps (done)
• Reprogram the layout for easy access to your own favourite special keys (done)
• Wristrests? (Didn't feel a difference)
• Write with straight wrists (done)
• Don't press too hard on the keys (learning)
• Switch between two different keyboard every hour or so (didn't try yet)
• Think before you type in order to minimize mistakes and hence total amount of writing (new idea)

So what else is there to investigate? Any particular technique for pressing buttons or moving hands?

[xtrafrood]

What's your tenting situation like?

[DanielJanzon]

No tenting, so it's flat.  Thanks for the tip!   I'd rather exhaust those options first before investing in learning Dvorak

[algernon]

• Learn a different key layout like Dvorak (investigating)
• Switch between two different keyboard every hour or so (didn't try yet)
• Think before you type in order to minimize mistakes and hence total amount of writing (new idea)

I would advise against switching between keyboards often. Not only do you have to mentally switch, you likely have to readjust to the new typing experience too, and that's a needless burden, in my opinion. I did this while getting used to the ErgoDox, and it was a painful, inconvenient experience.

Thinking before typing does help, not only by reducing mistakes, but by having a better flow of typing, and that helps a little too, I found. If I feel less stressed about mistakes, or about my speed, then I will type better, I won't try to rush and make shortcuts, but type properly, and my hands and fingers like that.

As for the layout: Dvorak is orders of magnitudes better than QWERTY, but it is very different. You have a lot more hand alteration, and a lot less rolling (typing a few keys with adjacent fingers, kind of rolling sideways on the keyboard). If you happen to prefer alteration (I do), Dvorak is for you. If you don't, try something like Workman, Colemak or Norman. With that said, Dvorak has its issues too: the L key is in a terrible position, for example. That's one of the reasons I'm about to switch to my own layout, inspired by Dvorak, and keeping many of its properties, but getting rid of some of the issues I experience with it.

So what else is there to investigate? Any particular technique for pressing buttons or moving hands?

Tenting was suggested already, but if you're using an ErgoDox, I would also suggest moving your modifiers, or at least Shift, to your thumb cluster, and turning it into a one-shot modifier. That is, you tap it, release it, and the next key within a few seconds will still be shifted. This means you don't have to hold the key, and thus, reduce the work your finger has to perform, and you move it to the thumb cluster, so its under a strong finger, and you don't hurt your pinkey.

I've been using this setup for a good while now, and it has done wonders to my feeling of comfort. It does take some time to get used to not hold keys, but once you're there, the difference is huge.

[Phenix]

Can you please provid me your dox keymap? O am. Trying to figure out an decent layout

[algernon]

Can you please provid me your dox keymap? O am. Trying to figure out an decent layout

If that was to me, my keymap's here: https://github.com/algernon/ergodox-layout - based on QMK, should work on EZ, and the original ErgoDox too. If you have an infinity, QMK porting is in progress too, but afaik, not fully there yet.

[DanielJanzon]

Thanks a lot algeron!

I think you might be right about switching keyboard. Regarding moving the modifier or shift, it reminds me of an idea I've had for a while, namely velocity sensitive keys. Then you just type slightly harder to get a capital letter. Is there any way to make a switch recognize the velocity (to build a prototype)?

[algernon]

Thanks a lot algeron!

I think you might be right about switching keyboard. Regarding moving the modifier or shift, it reminds me of an idea I've had for a while, namely velocity sensitive keys. Then you just type slightly harder to get a capital letter. Is there any way to make a switch recognize the velocity (to build a prototype)?

There was this analog keyboard on kickstarter, the Wooting one: http://www.wooting.nl/ - it could be done with that. On a "normal" keyboard, the closest thing you can do is either double-tap, or long-press. Tap a twice, get A. Or hold a longer, and get A. The latter sucks when you try to type fast. The first is possible, but a bit annoying, in my experience. I much prefer the modifier, especially since I can toggle it on with double-tap, and then get all caps until toggled off.

[nemui]

If you don't mind sharing, can I know which part of your hand is particularly aching the most when you type for extended periods of time?

[Phenix]

thanks a lot!
Will need to look into, still on my 3day with the dox

[Phenix]

could you please tell me where your hands rest? mine rest on asdf and jklö

[algernon]

could you please tell me where your hands rest? mine rest on asdf and jklö

Mine's usually rest on the home row (aoeu htns on Dvorak).

[Phenix]

ok. Do you use your dox tented? If so how?

[pyro]

@DanielJanzon You probably have a serious finger/hand injury. Go see an orthopedist/sports physician. Don't **** around with this stuff.

[Phenix]

sure, already have an termin.
btw: got an error while compiling your keymap.c with the "usual" QMK way

[algernon]

ok. Do you use your dox tented? If so how?

I have an ErgoDox EZ, tented a bit. No idea about the angle, I just played with the little legs until it felt good.

[algernon]

sure, already have an termin.
btw: got an error while compiling your keymap.c with the "usual" QMK way

Can you open a GitHub issue, with the exact error message, and the command you tried? I'd rather not add noise to this thread, when debugging issues with my own layout. (FWIW, my layout requires a very recent checkout of QMK, there are build instructions in the readme, at the end).

[DanielJanzon]

Nemui,

It's hard to pin point exactly. It's the fingers definitely. They also feel stiffer, so I guess it's somehow related to muscular tension. But I'm also very sensitive to bottoming out the keys when I type. Do you have a similar experience?

Pyro,

Yes I should see someone who can diagnose it. Have been thinking about that for a while now. I'm not sure exactly which kind of expertise I trust though.

[nemui]

It's hard to pin point exactly. It's the fingers definitely. They also feel stiffer, so I guess it's somehow related to muscular tension. But I'm also very sensitive to bottoming out the keys when I type. Do you have a similar experience?

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I used to have a similar problem and I realised it was due to my heavy typing, so I'd always bottom out my key strokes and my fingers didn't like that, especially the tip of my fingers! Sounds like you may be having the same problem.

I improved the situation by training myself to touch type, and I switched to a keyboard with very light switches (Matias low force quiet linear on their Ergo Pro) and now I can type for extended periods without any pain in my fingers. I do however have some shoulder aches occasionally so I'm experimenting with posture as well. However, if your pain is mainly in the fingers, I think trying to type with a "softer" touch may alleviate it by quite a bit.

That said Pyro is right in that you should probably get it looked at by a professional. I'm worried it might be arthritis, and that's not to be taken lightly!

[DanielJanzon]

nemui,

On the other hand there is not much to do if it's arthritis, I believe? Maybe changing profession to something that doesn't require typing so much can be an option.

[pyro]

Could be any number of things. You don't know and people on this forum won't be able to diagnose it for you. Please do see a doctor. If one doesn't know what to make of it, he'll be able to refer you to a specialist that does. I'd start with an orthopedist, but a regular physician will do, too.

[Zustiur]

Also if you bottom out keys and this causes pain, try heavier keys too. I have a similar situation where my knuckles feel stiff and find that mx white helps a lot.
You might have the same results.

Introduce short regular breaks into your work. Take your hands off the keyboard when not typing. Learn some hand excersizes and stretches. If you get actual pain then identify the exact location of the pain and pay attention to which movements trigger it. Modify layout to your specific needs by eliminating or reducing the frequency of that movement. Dvorak and colemak may or may not be an improvement for yoy personally. No 'standard' layout will be as good as one which is custom made for your hands and your work.

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[hoggy]

Doctors appointment - don't skip this step.

Macros/text expansion software.
On windows you can set the mouse pointer to move to the default button on most dialog boxes.
Dwell clicking software.
SpaceFN.

[hoggy]

Vacation.