Author Topic: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards  (Read 5359 times)

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Offline saint_james

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Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« on: Wed, 01 October 2014, 21:40:40 »
What, if any, is the advantage of dual versus single layer PC boards used in mechanical keyboards?
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Offline PointyFox

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 01 October 2014, 21:44:00 »
They're more durable, though it's harder to remove components from them because the solder tends to wick in further.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 01:13:49 »
More durable, you can design layouts with fewer bridges to jump over tracks and the boards are often made from much stiffer material. Some single sided boards are really flexible and made from cheaper material (QFR for instance).
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Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 11:05:41 »
When you say more durable, I gather that means that the PCB is more suited/resilient to ongoing modifications (e.g. desoldering switches for replacement with another type of switch).  Is that correct?

In terms of normal use for someone who will not modify their board, would a keyboard with a single-layer PCB offer shorter service life than one with a dual-layer PCB?
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 11:18:18 »
IDK why you guys would say "more durable"...  that's not always true..

The advantage is the potential for a more compact, or more even layout.. 

As for durability,  that comes down to how much the American resellers paid to OEMs..

Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 13:29:28 »
tp4tissue:  So, does this mean that the contract specifications and execution (for materials, precision and QC) are more important than whether the board itself is single or dual layer?

Edited to correct grammar.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 13:50:10 »
When you say more durable, I gather that means that the PCB is more suited/resilient to ongoing modifications (e.g. desoldering switches for replacement with another type of switch).  Is that correct?

In terms of normal use for someone who will not modify their board, would a keyboard with a single-layer PCB offer shorter service life than one with a dual-layer PCB?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the type of board used for the single sided. If a good quality single sided PCB is used, then the durability and longevity will be about the same as a dual layer. However some single layer boards are made with cheap materials that you can't make dual layer from and these will not last as long. The tracks lift more easily (this happens on the QFR PCB), the solder mask may be applied poorly or not at all, etc.

Often if a company is using a single layer PCB it will be due to cost and that usually also means using cheaper materials and components in other areas which of course will affect the overall durability and longevity of the product.

With a PCB mounted board, the flexibility of the PCB also becomes a factor in how the board feels. Dual layer, being stiffer in general, will feel 'tighter' and more like a plate mounted board than one with a flexible single layer PCB.

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 03 October 2014, 23:02:25 »
Thanks folks!  Appreciate your responses.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 07:25:51 »
What’s the context? Are you designing a PCB for a custom keyboard? Trying to evaluate some specific pair of keyboards? (If the latter, name the keyboards: the PCB in isolation doesn’t tell you much at all.)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 07:54:40 »
tp4tissue:  So, does this mean that the contract specifications and execution (for materials, precision and QC) are more important than whether the board itself is single or dual layer?

Edited to correct grammar.

absolutely..


Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 13:32:17 »
What’s the context? Are you designing a PCB for a custom keyboard?

No.  Not yet anyway.

Trying to evaluate some specific pair of keyboards? (If the latter, name the keyboards: the PCB in isolation doesn’t tell you much at all.)

Yes.  I currently possess two MX-Cherry based boards: the WASD V2 and the CM QFR.  I and am trying to determine: (a) their durability and quality relative to other offerings currently on the market; (b) their worthiness and suitability for modification relative to other boards; and (c) the relative qualities of other available COTS offerings.



I have been able to gather the following impressions from scouring these forums:

Filco, Ducky, KUL and WASD CODE utilize double layer PCBs and are considered by most to be relatively high quality.  Even so, the quality of fabrication (especially the fine points of soldering) are typical of commercial electronics and have defects that would not pass IPC J-standard.

Images on GH of the WASD Code PCB in particular shows some shoddy soldering... cold joints, bridging and other defects that are indicative of sloppy QC, and not necessarily the quality of the PCB itself.

CM QFR uses a single layer PCB of lesser quality, which is where CM saved some money to offer the QFR at its attractive price point

WASD V2 is also single layer PCB, but unsure of quality at this point.  I will probably crack the case and examine the board itself to determine the quality of the PCB and the soldering of devices onto it.


Some other background:
I have some knowledge of electronics and access to IPC-certified fabrication facilities (we typically build and inspect to IPC J-standard).  Where I work we use multi-layer PCBs exclusively and I have not worked with single layer PCBs at work for many years (decades?).  The things we design and build must withstand very harsh environments (extreme temperatures, shock, vibration, EMI, water exposure, dust, etc.) so it is not really fair to directly compare the manufacturing quality of my stuff to commercial commodity items (e.g. keyboards).  Thus, I am unfamiliar with the current state of commercial single-layer PCB fabrication.

Edited for grammar.
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 October 2014, 13:36:03 by saint_james »
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 03:14:53 »



I have been able to gather the following impressions from scouring these forums:

Filco, Ducky, KUL and WASD CODE utilize double layer PCBs and are considered by most to be relatively high quality.  Even so, the quality of fabrication (especially the fine points of soldering) are typical of commercial electronics and have defects that would not pass IPC J-standard.

Images on GH of the WASD Code PCB in particular shows some shoddy soldering... cold joints, bridging and other defects that are indicative of sloppy QC, and not necessarily the quality of the PCB itself.

CM QFR uses a single layer PCB of lesser quality, which is where CM saved some money to offer the QFR at its attractive price point

WASD V2 is also single layer PCB, but unsure of quality at this point.  I will probably crack the case and examine the board itself to determine the quality of the PCB and the soldering of devices onto it.


Some other background:
I have some knowledge of electronics and access to IPC-certified fabrication facilities (we typically build and inspect to IPC J-standard).  Where I work we use multi-layer PCBs exclusively and I have not worked with single layer PCBs at work for many years (decades?).  The things we design and build must withstand very harsh environments (extreme temperatures, shock, vibration, EMI, water exposure, dust, etc.) so it is not really fair to directly compare the manufacturing quality of my stuff to commercial commodity items (e.g. keyboards).  Thus, I am unfamiliar with the current state of commercial single-layer PCB fabrication.

Edited for grammar.

I just love the diversity on geekhack!

Thank you very much, saint james, for the insight. I did not know that even our favorite 'best' keyboards are not capable of meeting industry soldering standards.

But then, what do these industry standards refer to? I googled and it didn't say what IPC-J was supposed to be for, only that it was a kind of soldering standard certification. If is soldering for heavy equipment use say NASA or harsh environments, then of course invoking IPC-J is meaningless. If it is soldering for industrial/commercial reliability (eg the kind that Cherry Corp. produces, or the keyboards controlling nuclear power plants) then it is still relevant that you invoke it.

Because otherwise it is an apples to oranges comparison. I could say that this forum doesn't meet halal standards eg sometimes we talk about non-halal foods, but halal certification really doesn't matter for geekhackers. Until the day Mkawa becomes Mohammed Kawahiddin...

I am VERY interested in your discussion. You see, I have a distinct preference for certain keyboards like TG3, Access and Tipro. These are the commercial guys and supposedly of superior quality. But since I also hate black switches (they love black switches), I wind up desoldering everything. So does that mean I am degrading the quality of soldering on my keyboards, from some superior industrial certification, to my amateurish, crappy Gutz Berserk Barbarian standard?

Having messed with various boards, I honestly do not think my soldering is any worse than Cooler Master's or even Filco's. Their stuff is probably all done by underpaid Chinese peasants anyway. But I got the impression for Tipro and Cherry, every single solder joint is classic shiny convex, the ideal.
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Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 03:57:33 »



I have been able to gather the following impressions from scouring these forums:

Filco, Ducky, KUL and WASD CODE utilize double layer PCBs and are considered by most to be relatively high quality.  Even so, the quality of fabrication (especially the fine points of soldering) are typical of commercial electronics and have defects that would not pass IPC J-standard.

Images on GH of the WASD Code PCB in particular shows some shoddy soldering... cold joints, bridging and other defects that are indicative of sloppy QC, and not necessarily the quality of the PCB itself.

CM QFR uses a single layer PCB of lesser quality, which is where CM saved some money to offer the QFR at its attractive price point

WASD V2 is also single layer PCB, but unsure of quality at this point.  I will probably crack the case and examine the board itself to determine the quality of the PCB and the soldering of devices onto it.


Some other background:
I have some knowledge of electronics and access to IPC-certified fabrication facilities (we typically build and inspect to IPC J-standard).  Where I work we use multi-layer PCBs exclusively and I have not worked with single layer PCBs at work for many years (decades?).  The things we design and build must withstand very harsh environments (extreme temperatures, shock, vibration, EMI, water exposure, dust, etc.) so it is not really fair to directly compare the manufacturing quality of my stuff to commercial commodity items (e.g. keyboards).  Thus, I am unfamiliar with the current state of commercial single-layer PCB fabrication.

Edited for grammar.

I just love the diversity on geekhack!

Thank you very much, saint james, for the insight. I did not know that even our favorite 'best' keyboards are not capable of meeting industry soldering standards.

But then, what do these industry standards refer to? I googled and it didn't say what IPC-J was supposed to be for, only that it was a kind of soldering standard certification. If is soldering for heavy equipment use say NASA or harsh environments, then of course invoking IPC-J is meaningless. If it is soldering for industrial/commercial reliability (eg the kind that Cherry Corp. produces, or the keyboards controlling nuclear power plants) then it is still relevant that you invoke it.

Because otherwise it is an apples to oranges comparison. I could say that this forum doesn't meet halal standards eg sometimes we talk about non-halal foods, but halal certification really doesn't matter for geekhackers. Until the day Mkawa becomes Mohammed Kawahiddin...

I am VERY interested in your discussion. You see, I have a distinct preference for certain keyboards like TG3, Access and Tipro. These are the commercial guys and supposedly of superior quality. But since I also hate black switches (they love black switches), I wind up desoldering everything. So does that mean I am degrading the quality of soldering on my keyboards, from some superior industrial certification, to my amateurish, crappy Gutz Berserk Barbarian standard?

Having messed with various boards, I honestly do not think my soldering is any worse than Cooler Master's or even Filco's. Their stuff is probably all done by underpaid Chinese peasants anyway. But I got the impression for Tipro and Cherry, every single solder joint is classic shiny convex, the ideal.

Great points you bring up.  As you say, it is truly an apples and oranges comparison since most commercial electronics are at least sufficient for their intended use and do not have to take 9Gs of stress at 40K feet at 0 degrees Celsius.  My projects at work need to meet these standards because Federal Acquisition Regulations require it, and because operational failures carry unacceptable costs (loss of life and lots of $$$).  That is why the solder and fabrication efforts I deal with at work must meet IPC J-STD... so outside of critical applications, J-STD is basically a soldering beauty contest more than anything(in my opinion).  I cite it only because I am intimately familiar with it, and at least it is a standard that can be applied based on visual inspection of fabrication or repair work involving soldering.

In practical reality, the best solder joints need to be clean with a full flow/melt and no oxidation or contaminants in the joint... and the best way to get that is to do it right the first time in a wave solder machine or reflow oven and without the need for rework.  A somewhat imperfect looking (or even ugly) solder job that meets these critieria is better than a beautiful-appearing solder joint that has been reworked 2+ times. A reworked solder job allows contaminants and oxides into the joint, and the excess heat loading from the soldering iron can cause damage (e.g. delamination of the PCB, lifted pads, thermal degradation of components mounted in proximity to the resolder site, Kirkendall voids and other damage that is not apparent to the unaided eye).  The less heat you apply to the board, the better off it is.  In untrained hands, soldering irons cause more problems than they fix.  A gunsmith friend of mine loves Dremel tools and is thankful that they are sold to the public, because improper use of Dremels is responsible for most of his business (fixing the screw-ups of people trying to modify their own guns).

For a keyboard, it would be ideal for a truly skilled fabricator to do all soldering by hand without a single rework and pass J-STD.  Since this would be ridiculously expensive in any quantity, the next best would be for soldering to be performed in an automated wave solder machine (even if the joints looked a little imperfect) and later functionally QA/QC'd by a skilled inspector.  The scenario of fabrication being done by "underpaid Chinese peasants" should give us some pause... since any and every instance of rework is a cumulative compromise in reliability, even if the joints end up looking beautiful. 
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 04:19:34 »


Great points you bring up.  As you say, it is truly an apples and oranges comparison since most commercial electronics are at least sufficient for their intended use and do not have to take 9Gs of stress at 40K feet at 0 degrees Celsius.  My projects at work need to meet these standards because Federal Acquisition Regulations require it, and because operational failures carry unacceptable costs (loss of life and lots of $$$).  That is why the solder and fabrication efforts I deal with at work must meet IPC J-STD... so outside of critical applications, J-STD is basically a soldering beauty contest more than anything(in my opinion).  I cite it only because I am intimately familiar with it, and at least it is a standard that can be applied based on visual inspection of fabrication or repair work involving soldering.

In practical reality, the best solder joints need to be clean with a full flow/melt and no oxidation or contaminants in the joint... and the best way to get that is to do it right the first time in a wave solder machine or reflow oven and without the need for rework.  A somewhat imperfect looking (or even ugly) solder job that meets these critieria is better than a beautiful-appearing solder joint that has been reworked 2+ times. A reworked solder job allows contaminants and oxides into the joint, and the excess heat loading from the soldering iron can cause damage (e.g. delamination of the PCB, lifted pads, thermal degradation of components mounted in proximity to the resolder site, Kirkendall voids and other damage that is not apparent to the unaided eye).  The less heat you apply to the board, the better off it is.  In untrained hands, soldering irons cause more problems than they fix.  A gunsmith friend of mine loves Dremel tools and is thankful that they are sold to the public, because improper use of Dremels is responsible for most of his business (fixing the screw-ups of people trying to modify their own guns).

For a keyboard, it would be ideal for a truly skilled fabricator to do all soldering by hand without a single rework and pass J-STD.  Since this would be ridiculously expensive in any quantity, the next best would be for soldering to be performed in an automated wave solder machine (even if the joints looked a little imperfect) and later functionally QA/QC'd by a skilled inspector.  The scenario of fabrication being done by "underpaid Chinese peasants" should give us some pause... since any and every instance of rework is a cumulative compromise in reliability, even if the joints end up looking beautiful.

OK, I need some time to absorb this.

But you are basically saying that reworking is bad. I can see why – eg my soldering iron gets dirty and it is impossible to get every bit of that black stuff off. I was also worrying about impurities getting into solder joints and possibly causing problems in future.

What about total desoldering and resoldering?

IE total removal of original solder, impurities and all. I typically do that for one session, then thoroughly clean the soldering iron, and go back and solder. I know there will still be some impurities, but in general I get nicer looking, shiny convex joints better than when I reflow the solder/ add more solder to an existing joint. But I still have various black splotches, sticky places, etc. that tell me I didn’t do a perfect job and I need to get better. I am not familiar with solder paste, flux, etc.

I am really asking this out of my own interests. I am expecting to get more POS boards in future and fully expect to have to desolder all the black switches I hate so much. OK, after I do that, what’s the best way to resolder to the highest possible standard? What should I do to ensure maximum possible quality?

Assume that 1) I am using leaded solder; 2) I am using a very ordinary, cheapo soldering iron.
I only have cotton pads and copper solder wool (whatever you call that) to clean the soldering iron tip.

As I am not a professional and I only expect to have to solder a few more keyboards before I settle on my ideal layout (I’m already near there), I see no point in spending hundreds on a soldering iron, wave oven or more professional stuff. I just want to improve my work so that I can have decent quality without expending too much resources (on equipment, training/ practice, etc.) Naturally I do not expect my stuff to function in zero gravity. But I'd like to think that my work is good enough to last the next couple decades of normal desk use without temperature extremes. My work does have to withstand the occasional bump eg when I move my keyboard I might drop it a couple of inches or have similarly modest impacts.
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Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 04:54:56 »


OK, I need some time to absorb this.

But you are basically saying that reworking is bad. I can see why – eg my soldering iron gets dirty and it is impossible to get every bit of that black stuff off. I was also worrying about impurities getting into solder joints and possibly causing problems in future.

What about total desoldering and resoldering?

IE total removal of original solder, impurities and all. I typically do that for one session, then thoroughly clean the soldering iron, and go back and solder. I know there will still be some impurities, but in general I get nicer looking, shiny convex joints better than when I reflow the solder/ add more solder to an existing joint. But I still have various black splotches, sticky places, etc. that tell me I didn’t do a perfect job and I need to get better. I am not familiar with solder paste, flux, etc.

I am really asking this out of my own interests. I am expecting to get more POS boards in future and fully expect to have to desolder all the black switches I hate so much. OK, after I do that, what’s the best way to resolder to the highest possible standard? What should I do to ensure maximum possible quality?

Assume that 1) I am using leaded solder; 2) I am using a very ordinary, cheapo soldering iron.
I only have cotton pads and copper solder wool (whatever you call that) to clean the soldering iron tip.

As I am not a professional and I only expect to have to solder a few more keyboards before I settle on my ideal layout (I’m already near there), I see no point in spending hundreds on a soldering iron, wave oven or more professional stuff. I just want to improve my work so that I can have decent quality without expending too much resources (on equipment, training/ practice, etc.) Naturally I do not expect my stuff to function in zero gravity. But I'd like to think that my work is good enough to last the next couple decades of normal desk use without temperature extremes. My work does have to withstand the occasional bump eg when I move my keyboard I might drop it a couple of inches or have similarly modest impacts.

I wouldn't sweat the details too much for a keyboard, as the worst thing that can happen is that something may not work and it can usually be remedied later.    No need to spend oodles of extra money or do anything special.  Leaded solder and all the normal stuff (even rosin flux) is fine. 

Cleaning:  I do recommend that you get 100% IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol), some stiff acid brushes, and solder wick or a decent solder sucker. Use the IPA to clean the solder site on the board (vias or pads), the component you are mounting, and the soldering iron tip. 

Use the Goldilocks rule for heat:  not too hot, not too cold, just right... The correct amount of heat will make a good joint... insufficient heat will make a faulty joint... excessive heat can damage your board or components.

Never attempt to rework or "fix" a joint by heating the existing joint again.  If you screw it up, desolder the component from the board and remove as much solder as you can with the wick/sucker... clean the leads and vias with IPA and acid brush to remove impurities, carbon and oxidation... and then try again from scratch.  After you are done with your soldering, clean the joint with the IPA and acid brush.  Don't leave any of the flux residue on the joint, as this will make inspection difficult and can cause corrosion over time.

Remember ventilation.  You don't want to breathe the fumes from your soldering work.

Just taking a guess, your soldering is probably fine as it is.  The real test is "does the dang thing work as I expect it to?" If your previous solder projects worked as advertised, then you are just fine tuning your technique.
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Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 05:01:45 »
Just to clarify, my comments above relating to wave solder machines and reflow ovens were from a factory manufacturing perspective, not a hobbyist modifying his keyboard. 

Thanks for the great discussion folks!
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 07:26:35 »
(even rosin flux) is fine. 

Cleaning:  I do recommend that you get 100% IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol), some stiff acid brushes, and solder wick or a decent solder sucker. Use the IPA to clean the solder site on the board (vias or pads), the component you are mounting, and the soldering iron tip. 

Never attempt to rework or "fix" a joint by heating the existing joint again.  If you screw it up, desolder the component from the board and remove as much solder as you can with the wick/sucker... clean the leads and vias with IPA and acid brush to remove impurities, carbon and oxidation... and then try again from scratch.  After you are done with your soldering, clean the joint with the IPA and acid brush.  Don't leave any of the flux residue on the joint, as this will make inspection difficult and can cause corrosion over time.

Remember ventilation.  You don't want to breathe the fumes from your soldering work.

Just taking a guess, your soldering is probably fine as it is.  The real test is "does the dang thing work as I expect it to?" If your previous solder projects worked as advertised, then you are just fine tuning your technique.

Generally I have no problem after it's all done. I'm just looking ahead I guess.

I have another major problem now, but it seems to be more electrical than soldering related. My Deck Legend LEDs are all down and I have no idea why.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 13:57:40 »
Generally I have no problem after it's all done. I'm just looking ahead I guess.

I have another major problem now, but it seems to be more electrical than soldering related. My Deck Legend LEDs are all down and I have no idea why.

All LEDs went offline at the same time?  Does the keyboard work in all other respects besides inoperative LEDs? Did this occur after a modification, or did it happen spontaneously?

EDIT: I just realized how far we have drifted this thread.  We can take it to PM and try to troubleshoot the problem.
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 19:40:04 »
Generally I have no problem after it's all done. I'm just looking ahead I guess.

I have another major problem now, but it seems to be more electrical than soldering related. My Deck Legend LEDs are all down and I have no idea why.

All LEDs went offline at the same time?  Does the keyboard work in all other respects besides inoperative LEDs? Did this occur after a modification, or did it happen spontaneously?

EDIT: I just realized how far we have drifted this thread.  We can take it to PM and try to troubleshoot the problem.

The thread is here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62693.30

I have 2 Decks that I modded and both had problems. I sorted one out by identifying the broken trace and bridging that.

The other Deck still has problems.

I SIP modded the LEDs on this Deck. By that, I mean DaMorgue's famous SIP socket mod to replace leds with SIP sockets so that future LED changes can be made without desoldering.

All keys work. And originally all LEDs worked but one. When I tried to fix this LED, I wound up putting everything out of order.

Now no LEDs work. The problem went through a few iterations since I'd done different things but now I am at a loss and no one can help.

Deck's schematic is here: http://www.deckkeyboards.com/support/deck-legend-schematic

Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline saint_james

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Re: Single vs. Dual Layer PC boards
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 14:02:47 »

The thread is here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62693.30

I have 2 Decks that I modded and both had problems. I sorted one out by identifying the broken trace and bridging that.

The other Deck still has problems.

I SIP modded the LEDs on this Deck. By that, I mean DaMorgue's famous SIP socket mod to replace leds with SIP sockets so that future LED changes can be made without desoldering.

All keys work. And originally all LEDs worked but one. When I tried to fix this LED, I wound up putting everything out of order.

Now no LEDs work. The problem went through a few iterations since I'd done different things but now I am at a loss and no one can help.

Deck's schematic is here: http://www.deckkeyboards.com/support/deck-legend-schematic

I downloaded the schematic will look it over.  Not sure I can help but I will give it a go.  We can take detailed discussions over to your troubleshooting thread. 
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