However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.
ISO has equally-terrible backspace positioning and Enter is even further away than ANSI.
UK ISO makes good use of the extra "alpha," I mean who doesn't need instant access to the hashtag these days. Twice a year I might need a wiggle (~) too :))
However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.
HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/
The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.
However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.
Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/
The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.
However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.
Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/
The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.
ok then HHKB layout is best layout :3
However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.
Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).
Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,
all heil ISO.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/s8YE3g4.jpg)
Long left shift is downright stupid, the argument that it's easier to reach is false since you're supposed to reach it with pinky anyway.
1.25+1 is better than 2.25 Left Shift.
The backslash key: only alphas that isn't 1u, first mistake, and it's right into a column of modifiers and it ruins the color logic of the board. The person who made this was clearly on acid when he did ANSI.
Backspace/backslash position: backspace you we 2 keys alphas and backslash the backspace like on HHKB. It saves the color scheme, save the logic of modifiers/alphas position color, key dimensions.
People all praise the HHKB layout for backspace position for a reason it makes sense.
That would give ansi 2 new alphas, not sure what you would use it for since english doesn't have accent characters. Maybe some random things like €,£ ² ...
Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,
all heil ISO.
Both are terrible.
A combination of all ISO, ANSI and JIS would be tolerable.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/1Sz0XrX.png)
Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,
all heil ISO.
Just like a Frenchy to make a competition out of a few very small differences :D
I think the large left shift is particularly useful when shift-queuing and having 6+ hotkeys in an RTS
The backspace is only a big deal to those who frequently make mistakes :D speaking of mistakes...that iso enter....
ANSI may be bad but at least its not near as bad as ISO :p
Disagree entirely. Anything other than ANSI makes my hands hurt (And I've given a ton of alternate layouts a decent shot).
It's all personal preference.
The OP makes no sense anyway.
Smaller distance between the left pinkie and the respective Shift key is irrelevant, because pinkie still has to be used? WTF? Then proceed to complain about something (sorry, I fail to parse that random cloud of words in the OP) with Backspace? The same argument about pinkie could be used in that area too: shape and position of Enter/Return, backslash, right Shift and Backspace don't matter, because pinkie still has to be used. The rest of the post relies on the importance maintaining a relatively rare (and apparently quite obsolete in mass-produced keyboards) dual-color scheme… like if that mattered.
Meanwhile, there are actual technical issues, such as stabilization of the obscure shape of JIS/ISO Enter/Return keys.
But taking both standard layout ISO> ANSI.
Improved ANSI ala HHKB is superior to ISO.
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…
…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…
…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.
Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…
…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.
Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…
…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.
Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.
Same, never had a problem with my ISO enters.
I'm more annoyed by the wobbly 1.75u keys. Even if I love my split Rshift.
I am french and i use ansi over iso because it even makes more sense to type french on ANSI lol ;D
On ANSI, all your fingers dont have to move too far even for making accent,
Alpha/numbers are being accessible without using shift while you have to toggle shift on ISO
While Comma is accessible without using shift, Period does, these keys are commonly used
By the way, ANSI makes more sense in smaller format such as 60%/TKL which haven't a dedicated numpad
Shift + Alpha/numbers, cmon :-[
I would love if next future, french children learn from their earliest childhood, to type on qwerty ANSI
ISO (AZERTY) should be banned in France ;D
I just don't understand the Big Ass Enter key.
I only use left shift and never touch the right shift.
I love the HHKB layout more then any layout out atm. takes a couple days to stop hitting the | key instead of the backspace. but other then that HHKB layout for lyfe.
If only the realforce shared the same 60% layout =(((
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.Yep. The right shift is stupid. Not only is it crazy big, it’s also 1.5 keys away from the home position.
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.
Makes me feel like a king
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.
Makes me feel like a king
..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.
Makes me feel like a king
..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)
I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.
In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.
Makes me feel like a king
..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)
I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.
In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods
Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)
I have been converted... [...]
ISO (but with a full-size left shift key) is okay... but you need to remap the keys in software: move all the right-hand letters one key to the right, and cycle the symbols thus displaced into the middle column (or adjust to match your own preferences).
Just rearrange until it looks like:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/6A6DyV3.png)
Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)
I have been converted... [...]
Just rearrange until it looks like:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/6A6DyV3.png)
And then you end up with something better than either ANSI or ISO. (Still not great, but not too bad for a rectangular brick shape.)
That is what I called ANSO;Look closely: The key part is moving all the letters on the right hand one key to the right. Otherwise it’s worse than ANSI.
That is what I called ANSO;Look closely: The key part is moving all the letters on the right hand one key to the right. Otherwise it’s worse than ANSI.
(The precise details of how to arrange the new middle column are down to personal preference.)
The same idea also works pretty well on Apple Japanese laptop keyboards (I sadly have a US layout), which have extra thumb keys to play with. Since the Japanese right shift is by default even further away than the ISO left shift, you can even move the right hand over by two columns, and have two extra middle columns of index finger keys. Even comes with the control key in the correct place. Physical layout like:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kiUWgMv.jpg)
Logical layout like: http://pastie.org/10457620 (http://pastie.org/10457620) (stick that into http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/ (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/))Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/rdxU6sn.png)
Well, my keyboard works very well for me, actually. I understand your idea, but I think it should be tested to probe it may improve over the standard alpha arrangement. I think, you may have a learning curve to fight your muscle memory, before to get accustomed to it.I’ve tested a bit, though not too extensively. (On an external Apple Japanese layout keyboard which I picked up used for cheap; my Apple laptop as I said unfortunately has an ANSI keyboard.) Works pretty well.
Well I grew up with ISO and used to think that ISO is the master race.
When trying ANSI I thought these things were superior:
the enter key, there's no reason to have it so big as in ISO and with the ANSI enter key it's closer to the home row so it's easier to press. I've also come to think that's more pretty, potentially because I think efficiency is beautiful, but more likely because the enter is not as much out of place and awkward looking.
the left shift key: it's bigger but that's not a good thing for me functionally, I'm used to pressing the little shift so I put my pinky on the outermost portion of the key anyway (doesn't everyone do that? makes sense according to orientation of the hand when typing on the board, when I have 1,75 right ala 75% I think it's horrible because I always need to reorient my pinky since it automatically goes to the outermost part of key). I miss the "great than less than" key next to the left shift but one can bind those to new keys (I need to bind them since I have Icelandic keyboard layout which relies on that key for greater/less symbols). However the bigger shift is more aesthetically pleasing, small mods are ugly.
So now I think ANSI is better than ISO.
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.
Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :) (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.
Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :) (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).
Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.
Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :) (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).
Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.
I'm not sure if I understand this sentence :)
Comparing ansi to iso is pointless (they're both bad/old)...
#1 qwerty and #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from theseShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/29AGHzQ.jpg)
#1 it was invented to make people type slower (less errors, and because there wasnt a tool to delete a typo)
#2 because the technical implementation (those metal rods under the keys)
#1 qwerty and #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from theseEh, nope.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/29AGHzQ.jpg)
#1 it was invented to make people type slower (less errors, and because there wasnt a tool to delete a typo)
Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.
...Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. : Correct its a pain to find some of the stranger keys in ISO
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.I wouldn't say they didn't reach most do come with a standard ISO support I use standard lightly covering only the 3 keys needed.
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.I wouldn't say they didn't reach most do come with a standard ISO support I use standard lightly covering only the 3 keys needed.
And wasn't skull sqaudron DSA? I didn't think you could even get ISO in that so again if I am correct null point if anything ANSI should be split from a main set and also be a addon kit so folks who use ISO don't need to buy keys they would use :p
Anyway I feel this topic will go nowhere since it's going to be a thing of what you grow up with rather than practicality of use, but I stand firm in ANSI \ |is stupid :I they large key is not needed
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. : Correct its a pain to find some of the stranger keys in ISO
most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO: Incorrect most typically do support ISO with a addon kit
Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO: Some old cherry sets don't include support for many layouts including ANSI so kinda a null point
Just trying to even it out, to be fair its mainly for what you grew up with, personally I don't care much for ISO or ANSI keyboards a keyboard and types but I have to say I don't like the long left shift and # key on ANSI I just find it silly the placement, again personally I would say go ANSI just to save yourself trouble getting keysets THAT alone is worth going ANSI over ISO
They kinda go hand in hand
Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand
Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems?
^+1They kinda go hand in hand
Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems?
My thought when I read the remark. Layout equals key caps compatibility and availability.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/agK3Fmr.png)
nubbinator wrote:
> but those shift keys are awful
Try it and see! It’s actually extremely nice. (In comparison to ISO/ANSI, which is admittedly a very low bar.)
> and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.
Also really nice! Much easier than control keys in the corners of the board, and about the same as a board with a control key to the left of the A key. This layout could also work pretty well with shift and control swapped. But using a thumb shift takes a bit more practice than using a 1u-next-to-pinky-home-position shift.
Another nice possibility is to make shifts index-finger keys, replacing e.g. G and H, but then you need a different letter layout, which again has a steeper learning curve.
The final reasonable possibility, as I alluded to upthread, is to use something similar to a standard ISO layout, but shift all the right-hand letter keys over one key to the right, and rotate some other keys into the middle column that opens up. This makes the right shift and ISO enter key no longer impossible to reach, and helps with reaching backslash and backspace. Such a layout still isn’t great, but somewhat better than standard ISO/ANSI.
> One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc. I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.
Yep, you’d use the thumb + ring finger + pinky, or thumb + middle finger + ring finger, or either thumb + right pinky + left pinky if you prefer. All three ways are super duper easy to press, dramatically easier than control + shift + escape on a standard keyboard.
That’s a remarkably stupid shortcut though. I’d recommend just remapping to something more convenient.
Also, nubbs: I don’t plan to pay you, don’t worry, and you can keep using whatever crazy layout you want, no skin off my back.
Again, the primary criterion here was to avoid shaking things up too much, so most keys were left alone, and only the worst offenders were moved (backspace, both shifts, escape, control, backslash, f keys, arrows), with some other keys shifted around to accommodate those changes. This is clearly still not close to optimal.
For someone looking to have a more comfortable overall experience, I’d recommend something split, with a column stagger and a lot of extra thumb keys, along the lines of:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/UEVKKFi.png)
(This comparison has some duplicated blue outlines of the center columns, to better show how the hands line up on it in comparison to a standard board. You can see how much of the terrible reaching from an ANSI layout is avoided, but it has fewer keys overall so requires a custom layered layout.)
The layout in US 568630 was patented in 1896, i.e., six years after Sholes' death, although the application had been filed in 1889 and parts of the layout were noticeable in US 558428 (application filed in 1881)....Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.
Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
The layout in US 568630 was patented in 1896, i.e., six years after Sholes' death, although the application had been filed in 1889 and parts of the layout were noticeable in US 558428 (application filed in 1881)....Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.
Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
Densmore opposed changing layouts much earlier IIRC.
Remington went essentially bankrupt in 1886. The competition (e.g., Caligraph) was doing pretty well. QWERTY didn't really become a de facto standard, until the typewriter trust was formed and eventually adopted QWERTY as a whole; Underwood entered the market around that point too.
Still, the fact remains that we're using a layout designed for obscure mechanical reasons on boards that use discrete switches. The layout SHOULD have been redesigned with the first electrical / electronic keyboards for computers to suit input to these machines, but it's likely that for data entry purposes they used the same, familiar layout so typists wouldn't have to learn a new layout just to enter data to the terminals.