Portal Function + Esc 13 Key PBT Dye Sublimated key group buy (Discussion THREAD)

[chenga91]

Ragnorock, have you run any of these sale before? I'd be pretty down with you doing it as opposed to me because I'm pretty busy with school and extracurriculars so I don't think I'd be able to manage it well.

So you'd basically first check with Signature Plastics to see which designs will turn out well and then we'll choose from there? As for the problem of them not want to make keycaps of symbols from a game...aren't there people trying to sell starcraft keys? O.o

[chenga91]

generally, how much does a set of these keycaps cost for the function keys only? $20? $40?

[Ragnorock]

Well from what I've seen of the test mold from the TL.net key thread, the design doesn't always come out as intended, and we would definitely need to modify some of these designs so that they turn out better. No I haven't run a group buy before but it isn't super complicated. I'd run mine like Wihl ran his TL.net one... Talk to SP, get estimates of cost per set and quantity discounts, and then let it run till we hit at least the first one. At the number of custom keys we'd be making, there's no way in hell we'd all be able to afford 12 keys at like $5 a piece. We'd really need a lot of interest to do it though, it seems like there definitely is, and you've come up with a great idea here, these designs would make awesome keys and there are a lot of Portal fans on here and around, that's for sure.

Here's my updated preference picture, again I would prefer more of a thumbs up and thumbs down system for this set rather than pick the highest xx of the set from some sort of labeling and voting process that would only draw it out and make it take longer. Group buys that take months to get done before the order even goes in don't interest me and the same view is shared by many around here.

Definitely check out this image, I highlighted what I believe to be potential problem areas and also forgot to put in a ), that doesn't happen often. Also I removed the potato one because I really doubt it will look anything at all like a potato as a finished product.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 26061[/ATTACH]

[zulios]

Be warned though, that round 4 will not ship until next year.

Well, that would still remain an interesting option to me in order to save on shipping.
I guess that would add another $14 otherwise since I'm in Europe, but if that's the best choice for the majority of users I'll be fine with it.

Had a look at the selection, nice pick. Except for the three ones on the top row, I am concerned on how they would render however. The lines seem a bit thin...

[Wihl]

You can do unlimited designs as long as the color and form factor (ie a 1x Escape key) is the same. So if you do 200 keys with 5 designs that all use the same form factor and color you'd be paying: 5*35 dollars for the molds of the different legends and then you'd get a volume discount for 200 keys. If you did 1/5 of the keys in red you would get a volume discount for 160 keys and a separate discount for 40 keys.

General tip, be wary of pointy designs /_\. They will end up looking kinda terrible, look at the first test mold that SP made for the TL key for a glorious example. They can do thinner stuff but they'll end up a bit jagged, I think that's why one of the smiley faces from Round 3 looks like it does in the lower left.

SP does do test molds for free! If you're willing to wait an extra week per test, definately do this!

Beware that SP will not do copyrighted/trademark/etc designs - if they know about it. I had to get Teamliquid staff to contact SP to get the TL key made.

[chenga91]

Ahh. Thanks for the tips, Wihl. How on earth did they know about Teamliquid? Are there gamers in that company? =O

[ichitz]

I'll be up for running a group buy too. Or Ragnorock can do it
But I can def help if you guys need to mod svg files for it to come out better. I just quit my job and am going freelance. Got all these time on my hands now. Woot woot!

[aggiejy]

Beware that SP will not do copyrighted/trademark/etc designs - if they know about it. I had to get Teamliquid staff to contact SP to get the TL key made.

^^^^ this... but otherwise, looks awesome!

[Ragnorock]

Okay from what Wihl said I think its definitely a good idea to do every key in black with white legends as the pictures are, I was thinking of doing a pink heart for the companion cube but it's clearly going to be the most popular one and we'd need that for the volume of the whole set. Ichitz since I'm in school its probably best if you run it, but I'll definitely help in any way possible to get this done. It sounds like if we do a 12 key set we'd be looking at 12 x 35 for the molds, which is quite a lot and why I think we should do a 12 design set. On the other hand... if they're all the same color, the per key cost is going to go down really fast, to the point of even if we only get say 20 orders, that's 240 keys and based on the volume discounts in the SC2 keycap thread, that's $2 a key at 100, and it'll probably be even less than that. Hopefully around $1.50.

Doing some simple conservative estimates of cost, based upon $2 a key, we're looking at:

20 Orders:

Setup cost: 12 x $35= $420
Variable cost: 20 x 12 x $2 = $480
Cost per customer before shipping = $900/20 = $45

30 Orders:

Setup cost: 12 x $35= $420
Variable cost: 30 x 12 x $2 = $720
Cost per customer before shipping = $1,140/30 = $38

50 Orders:
Setup Cost: 12 x $35= $420
Variable Cost: 50 x 12 x $2 = $1200
Cost per customer before shipping = $1,620/50 = $32.40

75 Orders:
Setup Cost: 12 x $35 = $420
Variable Cost: 75 x 12 x $2 = $1800
Cost per customer before shipping = $2,220 = $29.60

So at $2 a key you can see that the up front costs are pretty high on this order, and I don't have that much cash sitting in my bank account, well I do but I need it lol. Anyways we'd definitely need to require payment before the order gets sent in, but at the same time that puts us at risk of them rejecting it and us having to refund a lot of money.

If we were able to negotiate a bigger volume discount and get something like a dollar or $1.50, that decreases the costs tremendously, someone should get ahold of SP and see what they say about it. I'd just say we've come up with a 12 key function set we'd like to buy and at all white on black what would the quantity discounts be after 100 keys if there are any. I would imagine they would as I'm a business major and I got to learn all about why they offer those discounts lol. If we were to get them at $1.50 the costs are respectively $39, $32, $26.40, and $23.60 per person. Expect the standard $6 US shipping and a 3% paypal fee happening as usual.

I think it would be best to do it this way: minimum 50 orders, once we hit that we start asking for prepayment because by that time we will have much more accurate cost estimates and then we go up to as many orders as we can get paid for 2 weeks after that, and then send them in. That way the cost per person should stay below $40 no matter what. Or we could ask for payment immediately at $40 and if we don't get enough orders for that much to cover the costs we refund it, and then we refund the difference to each person after.

So, not cheap to do this by any means but its worth it imo, these sets would be highly desirable if one meant to sell them after too.

[Ragnorock]

My face when I realize that Signature Plastics is in Washington, about a 7-8 hour drive from me lol. I kinda want to go there and talk to them in person when we submit the order lol.

[Bucky]

Lol I kind of had the same thought when I saw it wasn't too far away.

[TheSoulhunter]

Im in for a couple of caps

[ichitz]

Are we doing 12 keys? I thought we are doing 12 function keys + 1 esc key
Either way, I emailed SP for a quote, we'll see what Melissa says.

[Ragnorock]

Meh, we can do 13. I already have a TL.net coming for my esc and generally a lot of people already have esc keys but I don't mind.

[sherryton]

Lol I don't think it is worth driving the 7-8 hours

[Ragnorock]

I was thinking if I was making a trip over there already. I'm heading over to that side of the state next month to get a puppy so... its a fun thought. That's in Olympia though which would be the wrong way.

[ichitz]

I asked SP to quote me for 13 keys with the options of all 1 color, and another quote for 12function keys as 1 color and the esc key as a different color.

SP's quote:
   
Pricing for the keysets is as follows for a 13 key set in DCS Row 1 to fit the Cherry MX keyswitch:
All one color:
25 sets          $9.69 / set
50 sets          $7.90 / set
75 sets          $7.31 / set
100 sets        $7.01 / set
 
2 Colors:
25 sets          $10.53 / set
50 sets          $8.75 / set
75 sets          $8.15 / set
100 sets        $7.86 / set
 
New legend charges may apply depending on the complexity and specifics anticipated. Charges will range from $35 to $45. Attached is a pdf that give the basic guidelines for 2-shot molding. Please keep in mind that we may not be able to exactly match legends with the 2-shot molding process.
 
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks!
 
Melissa
Signature Plastics LLC

[tsangan]

I'll be in for a set or 2 in either format

[watduzhkstand4]

I'll be in for a set or 2 in either format

same here

[Ragnorock]

Well THAT is much cheaper than I had dared hope. Mayhaps I do have enough in my bank account lol. Are we on the same page in thinking that we want to do the companion cube key as a black key with a white legend and a pink heart? I don't think that's possible, double shots can only have one color so the whole cube would be pink. I'm not sure I'd like that idea but its open to discussion. For an extra 80 cents the difference is negligible and can be based purely on group preference.

Now to the biggest hurdle. Compiling good, workable SVGs. Ichitz this is probably where you're either going to make this group buy shine or fail, since we're like to run into several issues with our designs.

Here's some things I've noted and learned in making good SVGs. A lot of it most of you probably already know.

The SVGs need to be black on transparent, and the die cutter follows all of the edges where the black ends, making whatever is black on the SVG larger than it is. You will undoubtedly need to do one of two things as a result. Shrink all the black and space it out to compensate, or simply space it out to allow for everything to become larger when it gets traced. Its like drawing a circle around a cup with a pencil held straight up instead of at an angle so the lead can get right to the edge of the cup. Whatever you want to be white on the black key needs to be black in the SVG.

If you can handle the SVGs, I can handle the order collection when it comes time. First we need to get a complete set of them, especially since the cube and Aperture logo need to be completely done from scratch as we don't have a SVG with them in it.

K, going back to reading A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Decel]

Interesting!!
I'm definitely down for a set.

At this rate I'll be able to open a keycap shop :O

[chenga91]

all we gotta do for the pink heart is to convince SP to start making triple shot keycaps jkjk

I'd prefer a white legend.

[sherryton]

That is so cheap

[RColinTaylor]

Wait, Ragnorock, where in Washington are they?

[hashbaz]

I asked SP to quote me for 13 keys with the options of all 1 color, and another quote for 12function keys as 1 color and the esc key as a different color.

SP's quote:
   
Pricing for the keysets is as follows for a 13 key set in DCS Row 1 to fit the Cherry MX keyswitch:
All one color:
25 sets          $9.69 / set
50 sets          $7.90 / set
75 sets          $7.31 / set
100 sets        $7.01 / set
 
2 Colors:
25 sets          $10.53 / set
50 sets          $8.75 / set
75 sets          $8.15 / set
100 sets        $7.86 / set
 
New legend charges may apply depending on the complexity and specifics anticipated. Charges will range from $35 to $45. Attached is a pdf that give the basic guidelines for 2-shot molding. Please keep in mind that we may not be able to exactly match legends with the 2-shot molding process.
 
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks!
 
Melissa
Signature Plastics LLC

So, assuming the minimal $35 new legend fee * 13 new legends = $455.

$455 / 25 = $18.20
$455 / 50 = $9.10
$455 / 75 = $6.07
$455 / 100 = $4.55

This yields:

All one color:
25 sets:          $27.89
50 sets:          $17
75 sets:          $13.38
100 sets:        $11.56
 
2 Colors:
25 sets:          $46.93
50 sets:          $17.85
75 sets:          $14.22
100 sets:        $12.41

Right?

[ichitz]

@Ragnorok, that is much cheaper than what I anticipated too. I had to read the email multiple times to make sure I didn't get it wrong

For the SVGs, SP sent me their specifications on what they need. Minimum line/spacing width, etc. I haven't plug it into illustrator yet to know which icons works and which doesn't. But I feel like after that's sorted out, we also need to have a poll or sth to see which icons we want before I mod the files to SP's specifications. I could probably do that tomorrow morning.

We also need to figure out if SP has a problem printing icons from a registered game

If you want to handle the orders, that'll be great too. A business major and an graphic artist, we could make a team!

[ichitz]

So, assuming the minimal $35 new legend fee * 13 new legends = $455.

$455 / 25 = $18.20
$455 / 50 = $9.10
$455 / 75 = $6.07
$455 / 100 = $4.55

This yields:

All one color:
25 sets:          $27.89
50 sets:          $17
75 sets:          $13.38
100 sets:        $11.56
 
2 Colors:
25 sets:          $46.93
50 sets:          $17.85
75 sets:          $14.22
100 sets:        $12.41

Right?

yes, except u miscalculated the 2 colors/25 sets, it should be $28.73 :biggrin:

[hashbaz]

Ah yes, thanks.

[ViciousXUSMC]

If we can get the prices low enough I would be down for an entire F key set myself.

[Ragnorock]

Wait, Ragnorock, where in Washington are they?

Somewhere above Seattle, near the border from the distance they mentioned on their site. I never looked at the address but they're probably in the middle of nowhere lol.

Also you live in Pullman too, sup.

@Ragnorok, that is much cheaper than what I anticipated too. I had to read the email multiple times to make sure I didn't get it wrong

For the SVGs, SP sent me their specifications on what they need. Minimum line/spacing width, etc. I haven't plug it into illustrator yet to know which icons works and which doesn't. But I feel like after that's sorted out, we also need to have a poll or sth to see which icons we want before I mod the files to SP's specifications. I could probably do that tomorrow morning.

We also need to figure out if SP has a problem printing icons from a registered game

If you want to handle the orders, that'll be great too. A business major and an graphic artist, we could make a team!

Well nobody has suggested anything other than what Chenga and I have posted so I assume everyone is on board with the ones we've picked. Again I doubt we can make the potato look good but that should be the 13th imo, since that covers all of the ones suggested. If you or anyone else have any you want not highlighted in this updated picture, speak up now, but keep in mind design constraints. I would love to have the turret shooting one too but I highly doubt it will turn out at all like we want. Another idea I have would be to just do a simple mod on the cake to get  rid of the cherry, that would make it much simpler and probably look much better on the keycap. If any ones we have picked simply cannot be made to work, we'll just try another one.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 26097[/ATTACH]

@ Vicious, yeah even at 25 orders its still a really good price, I mean in other threads we're paying $5 bucks a key sometimes and here we get twelve for $17 at 50 orders lol. I'm probably going to buy several sets and sell them after at a premium as others have done. I imagine these will be quite collectible.

[hashbaz]

I do worry about the trademark aspect of this.  SP might refuse to do this, and getting permission from Valve will take forever even if they are cool about it.

[Ragnorock]

Oh gosh, I forgot to mention that in my last post.

If they made SC2 race logos I wouldn't worry about it guys... Just don't be all like YEAH WE WANT THESE PORTAL ICONS OWNED BY VALVE MADE YO. I wouldn't mention it at all.

[RColinTaylor]

Something we would totally have to ask ourselves is did Valve go through the time to trademark the icons painted on the wall at the beginning of levels of a game they made. And, at the price we are looking at right now, I would be down for two sets even if we ended up with just 10 keys total so taking a leap on 3 of the keys being a bit off or mildly wrong is completely worthwhile.

[Ragnorock]

On any image I have ever seen on them I've never seen a trademark. A logo used in the title sure though.

[Quarzac]

If we can get this to $13-$14 a set, I'm definitely down for 2 or 3. We'll see as the buy progresses. I haven't checked this in a couple days, and I'd just like to thank you guys for doing this so quickly! I'm really looking forward to these. I hope it all comes together. I'll get in contact with Valve if things don't work out with SP, if you'd like. I figure you guys are just as qualified, but if the rest of the organization bogs you down, I'll do what I can.

[RColinTaylor]

At this point is the next step to get them into the acceptable format for SP to look at, yay or nay, and then begin to collect the orders?

[chenga91]

updated original post to reflect our progress and the prices

[chenga91]

How d'you guys feel about using the blue and orange portals as keycaps?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 26109[/ATTACH]

[jat4]

How d'you guys feel about using the blue and orange portals as keycaps?

 
I would personally love the orange and blue halves of a guy as two different keys (the ones that surround the "PORTAL 2" in the logo).

They could be F1 and F12 or something.  Would be so good.

[tradet]

Depending on final look/set and cost (ship to Sweden?) I might be down for a set.

[csm725]

Would be down for F1-F12!

[zulios]

I'll be down for a set too depending on look and price as well.
Forgot this in the first place : would love to have the first icon (top left on the 12 best selected, the man falling into the portal) in white on red.

[HeavyArms]

You can put me down for a set/and or just an esc key.

[tsangan]

How d'you guys feel about using the blue and orange portals as keycaps?

(Attachment Link) 26109[/ATTACH]

Blue/Orange alternating would look amazing but there will be a increase in price no? Even though I think it would look awesome, some if not most people will still refer the standard white on black

[hashbaz]

Blue/Orange alternating would look amazing but there will be a increase in price no? Even though I think it would look awesome, some if not most people will still refer the standard white on black

I'm fuzzy on this too.  Seems like the volume discount should be per key.  We're going to buy 25, 50, etc. of each key, and we're already varying legends per key, so I don't get why varying color per key as well would cost extra.

[tsangan]

I'm fuzzy on this too.  Seems like the volume discount should be per key.  We're going to buy 25, 50, etc. of each key, and we're already varying legends per key, so I don't get why varying color per key as well would cost extra.

Having it blue/orange alternating could be the same price as the 2nd option with the end colour esc key as in the end its going to have its minimum per key in each colour.

But not sure how many folks would like it, I personally find it very theme fitting to have alternating blue/orange keys

[hashbaz]

Having it blue/orange alternating could be the same price as the 2nd option...

This is what I don't understand.  Why does having two colors in the order increase the price if we meet the minimum volume per key?  In a hypothetical order, all 50 companion cube keys would be black, and all 50 guy-falling-through-portal keys would be orange.  Both individual keys meet the volume requirement.

Clearly I'm missing something.

[dreamingftw]

Put me down for a set with red esc key. Thanks.

[chenga91]

I would personally love the orange and blue halves of a guy as two different keys (the ones that surround the "PORTAL 2" in the logo).

They could be F1 and F12 or something.  Would be so good.

Ah yes, I totally agree. But I think it's a bit of an issue to get fine lines printed on the keys

As for price, I'm not sure what's gonna happen :/ Hopefully someone who's more experienced than me can shed some insight onto this.

[sherryton]

Will it be the same if just the ESC key is bicolored?

yes, except u miscalculated the 2 colors/25 sets, it should be $28.73 :biggrin: