Portal Function + Esc 13 Key PBT Dye Sublimated key group buy (Discussion THREAD)

[eagleeye]

Alright, so the goal here is doubleshots. She gave specifics of how small the gaps can be, so now it's just a matter of Ichitz or another artistically skilled person retooling them? What if we were to just eliminate the ones that wouldn't work and instead come up with some Portalesque designs? Something that runs along the same line of stick man in hilarious accidents or the like? Would people be so opposed to that, because it's not taken straight from Portal?

sounds great to me!

[keyboardlover]

+1 for dye subs. No one's been able to get SP to do dye subs yet. I personally thought they looked cool.
I'd still buy doubleshots though, or a mix of both.

[dorkvader]

Yeah, somewhat. There are a lot of things we can do with them to try and make the existing designs work, but yeah, as Ichitz is saying, its going to be a struggle.

I'm going to go find a copy of illustrator and see what I can do. I'm a gfx guy as well I just haven't gotten around to getting illustrator because I've never had a need for it before.

Inkscape is good too. I'll see what I can do for the guy-portal keys for the 3-key idea. (over the weekend, when I have more time)

edit: also, I will likely be okay with dye-sub. I especially like the apeture logo in red. It's very nice.

[one_each]

The sub keys look great IMO and if they won't wear out then sub would be fine for me.  Perhaps we could offer a few sets?
13 - multi color sub
x - Double shot (x depends on which designs can be worked out)
2 - Portal guy (one blue, one orange)

[Ragnorock]

For anyone working on svgs, here's ichitz's work up to now. Melissa mentioned that any changes to them require another art charge, but I'm not sure which ones she means, since she clearly hasn't done all of them. In addition, any artwork that is for dry sublimated keys needs to have the colors in the svg, not just black and transparent. So if any does go and rework some of these, I'd like 2 versions of the svg: one with colors and one in all black so that there is a potential for doubleshots still.

[Ragnorock]

Email Updates:

From me
Okay well people aren't really happy about the current state of things, a lot of them just want doubleshots. Pad printing is too expensive since we're likely to lose a lot of orders due to them not being doubleshots, and I personally wanted black keys as one of the cornerstone parts of the deal. We could do blue keys with orange and lighter blue legends (think the Team Liquid keycap) in sublimation but I'm not sure we want to go that route. I'm trying to see what it would take to get them workable for doubleshots, can you tell me which ones we should focus on adjusting? I have a good idea which ones, but you or one of your engineers certainly know better. If I could get a list of which ones are okay and aren't it'd be good to go from there.
 
Thanks,
Dave

David-
The legends F1 and F11 (though the pointed edges on F11 will not be that pointy as we will be cutting with a 0.012" cutter).
Legends F0, F5, F10 and F12 need more space in between the image areas - i.e. on F0 there needs to be more space between the head and the body of the guy. F3 and F4 also need more space and some of the small details may be lost - i.e. the dot in the middle of the circle on F3, along with the 'hip' detail on the leg of the guy. F2, F6, F7, F8 and F9 just have too much detail. On F6 and F7, specifically the 'wavy ground' under the guys and the small dots...
 
The minimum space needed between the image that will be the first shot needs to be between 0.020" and 0.025" - preferably closer to 0.025".
 
The detail involved on these keycaps is going to cause us to make new grids to support the first shot (to make the legend moldable). Due to the detail involved the legend charge will also be significantly higher than I have quoted in the past. The grid charge is $100 and the legend charge will be $120 for a total of $220 for each new legend with complex graphics like this.


¬.¬

[xbb]

Remember: PBT dye sub > all!
Totally worth the money!

[chenga91]

If Signature Plastics isn't working out, anyone know anything about whether Fentek is any better? http://www.fentek-ind.com/keys.htm

Apparently they do custom keycaps as well...

[TopazPie]

+1 for dye sub on all white. Those samples looked amazing so I wouldn't mind the price.

[Ragnorock]

Melissa corrected me in that it was dry sublimation and not dye... Not sure what the differences are.

So after some thought and the steep increases in price for the doubleshots, I think sublimation is the best option. Now all we have to do is argue over colors. I don't mean to be so blunt about this but I'm pretty tired and frustrated after doing 7 hours of "Advanced Operations Management 499" homework and still not finishing it.

Here are color combinations that I'm willing to run a group buy for. That should help narrow it down a bit. I'm sorry guys but white keys just don't fit at all with my setup and I've no interest in running a group buy for keys I don't want- especially since I'm taking over the SC2 group buy as of now. It seems a fair amount of people do want a variety of other keys, so maybe it's best that they someone else takes over on it and other keys are made. If that happens I might buy a set anyways because of how much time I've invested in it already though, lol.

I like:

Red Keycaps with black or white legends, maybe a darker red than standard, since the bright red is pretty common and standard.
Blue Keycaps with Orange or blue legends for the most part and a few specific keys with multiple colors (dual portals on one key, red cherry on white cake, etc) Legends lighter blue than the keycap itself.

[KoolAidMan]

If anyone is interested in taking over a group buy for black lettering on white keys, I would be down to pick up a set.

It only makes to me sense since black images on white background is the actual signage and icons in the game.  

[F u r u y á]

If anyone is interested in taking over a group buy for black lettering on white keys, I would be down to pick up a set.

It only makes to me sense since black images on white background is the actual signage and icons in the game.  

+1. The 2 keys portal guy must be multi coloured though (orange/blue/black on pure white background).


Ragnorock would you ask Melissa how much would cost the exact same sets with different colors (pure white blackground)? I swear that I've read elsewhere that changing colors only won't substantially affect prices, but I might be wrong. If I'm not, then we could choice the bgcolor and make a "hybrid" order?

[KoolAidMan]

My face when we can do several colors on a single key: ^.^

My face when I look at the cost being more than doubled for both pad printing and sublimation: 0.o

My face when sublimation on black keys isn't possible: D:

My face when I struggle to comprehend the ridiculous number of options we have: :S

Teaser pic:

(Attachment Link) 27021[/ATTACH]

What do guys? Basically everything that I wanted out of this group buy is sortof disappearing. I like the idea of blue keys with multicolored legends though. I had the idea that we could do a great deal more of the keys and let everyone pick and choose which ones they want on their keyboard or do one of the original ideas of the function row plus the 9 keys from print screen to page down. Or perhaps arrow keys using the going into and out of the blue and orange portals.

It's too bad there are so many different opinions on this, because I think the black/colored dye on white key matches the Portal aesthetic perfectly. I would be happy with a simple black on white if that helped with costs, especially since that's what they look like in the game anyway, but the colors also look quite good. Color makes it even more retro 80s, which ties in with sections of Portal 2.

Black looks good on most things, look at the Starcraft keys for example, but this is one of the cases where white keys make the most sense.

Again, if anyone is willing to pick this up and roll with it, I'm down for a set.

[Quarzac]

Melissa corrected me in that it was dry sublimation and not dye... Not sure what the differences are.

So after some thought and the steep increases in price for the doubleshots, I think sublimation is the best option. Now all we have to do is argue over colors. I don't mean to be so blunt about this but I'm pretty tired and frustrated after doing 7 hours of "Advanced Operations Management 499" homework and still not finishing it.

Here are color combinations that I'm willing to run a group buy for. That should help narrow it down a bit. I'm sorry guys but white keys just don't fit at all with my setup and I've no interest in running a group buy for keys I don't want- especially since I'm taking over the SC2 group buy as of now. It seems a fair amount of people do want a variety of other keys, so maybe it's best that they someone else takes over on it and other keys are made. If that happens I might buy a set anyways because of how much time I've invested in it already though, lol.

I like:

Red Keycaps with black or white legends, maybe a darker red than standard, since the bright red is pretty common and standard.
Blue Keycaps with Orange or blue legends for the most part and a few specific keys with multiple colors (dual portals on one key, red cherry on white cake, etc) Legends lighter blue than the keycap itself.

If we could get a dark, dark red or blue, like blood red or navy, that might work for me. I agree with non-white, unless it's really flawless white. Like, as white as it gets white. What you should probably do it just PM Ichitz since you two are the main team for this, come up with a color combo that works for you guys, see if you can garner enough interest to keep prices down (make a sign up thread, keep track of orders), and go with that.

As for the people who want black on white, do the same. Find someone to head it, make a sign up thread. You could probably get a decent amount of people if you went with the white on the bottom left, considering how white it is.

If you guys cut off on the same day, work with each other and see if you can't get a discount on the overall pricing for a sizable order. If you can't, submit your orders separately.

[Ragnorock]

Yeah, white does make a whole lot of sense. I'd be willing to rock white on my board as long as they were all black legends except for a pink heart on the cube. That's all I'd want for color on them. And yeah as bright and flawless of a white as possible. None of that eggshell or cream white. Yeah I would love dark red or blue but it doesn't seem like very many others are hot on that idea. Imo dark red or blue keycaps look effing legit.

That's a pretty simple order and I could get that rolling pretty quick with Melissa if thats what everyone wants to do... but there are a lot of other suggestions that people want to get into that I'm not really hot on spending weeks working out what to do with Melissa since it's changed so much already, we like... need to solidify what this buy is and isn't.

For reference, here's my work in process, you can see why I've been against white keycaps with lots of varied colors, but after sleeping on it I'm good with black on white etc. It's awaiting SC2 modifier keycaps, a TL.net Esc key, and hopefully these.

[Quarzac]

Yeah, white does make a whole lot of sense. I'd be willing to rock white on my board as long as they were all black legends except for a pink heart on the cube. That's all I'd want for color on them. And yeah as bright and flawless of a white as possible. None of that eggshell or cream white. Yeah I would love dark red or blue but it doesn't seem like very many others are hot on that idea... we like... need to solidify what this buy is and isn't.

Alright, so to solidify, this buy is currently a 13 key run for dye-subbed black legends on white keys, with maybe the exception of the companion cube.

[Ragnorock]

Unless one of my other suggestions are more to the tastes of the masses, yes. Otherwise someone else can run the buy.

Basically Melissa is going to charge us if we change any of the legends to something else, but different color combos shouldn't cost us anything more since she arbitrarily picked whatever colors she did. I could get an order thread up on Monday in sync with the SC2 thread if you guys agree that a cube with a pink heart would be the **** and worth not having the really cool but different direction orange/blue portal keys.

Once again, I'd like to mention that I'm more than happy to do a round 2 with those sort of keys if this one doesn't make me want to kill myself by the end of it.

Edit: I'd also be cool with a red cherry on the cake like in the picture of the test molds, basically the white key in that assortment picture but with a black cake instead of blue.

Blue on white looks too retro/pastel to me.

[demik]

Pink heart companion cube > portal guy IMO

[tradet]

Hmm sadly without black keys it's a no go for me.

[keyboardlover]

Well there's no use crying over every mistake.

You just keep on trying 'till you run out of cake.

[Arkonos]

This ain't a triumpf,
we got a note here:
No DS
Even though we made the pics and tuned them...

Signature Plastics,
we want what they can't, because WE WANT!
For the lulz of all of us,
except the ones who are mad.

But there's no sense crying over every Pad Print,
you just keep on typing 'till you run out of paint,
and the keys will get done, I wonder how long
for the people who still have demand.

Sorry, I'm in training to build robots, not to write poems and songs.

[fluxrez]

What about simplifying this order to ONE or TWO really good double shot keycaps... Easier to afford, more interest etc...

[Ragnorock]

Because instead of $40 setup cost per keycap it's $220? I mean if you like paying 5 times as much as the average keycap you find on here goes for, then okay... but you're runnin it.

If you don't get what Melissa was trying to say in that email, she jacked up the prices so massively because they simply don't want to do doubleshots that complex. Its called pricing out of the market. They are making it so it isn't near as good value so that they don't have to go through the process.

[fluxrez]

Err I meant emphasis on the number of caps, not the type. What about 1 cool design?  Instead of a whole set.  Maybe just a companion cube cap.

[keyboardlover]

I think a lot of folks have to understand that designs that are too intricate (as well as those that involve more than one printing color) simply cannot be done using double shot technology. IMO dye sublimation is the next best option. I'm still down for the dye sub set.

[xbb]

I think a lot of folks have to understand that designs that are too intricate (as well as those that involve more than one printing color) simply cannot be done using double shot technology. IMO dye sublimation is the next best option. I'm still down for the dye sub set.

I think it's the best option (dye sub), not the next best option!
By the way are they using PBT or ABS caps with dye sub?

[keyboardlover]

I think it's the best option (dye sub), not the next best option!
By the way are they using PBT or ABS caps with dye sub?

PBT =)
(just like Topre keys)

I don't believe dye-sublimated ABS is possible.

[Ragnorock]

PBT =)
(just like Topre keys)

I don't believe dye-sublimated ABS is possible.

Correct, the keys have to be PBT, something about how porous the plastic is for gas absorption.

So experts. I pose the question... Melissa corrected me in that it wasn't "dye sublimation" but "dry sublimation," anyone know the difference?

Fluxrez, that sort of individual design one was what I had in mind for the 2nd round. We do 1-5 different designs mentioned earlier that we aren't doing in this thread and do a gb for them then. That one would involve something like a white on black companion cube... a orange on black portal, a blue on black portal, and perhaps a dry sublimated pair of the multicolored guy entering and exiting portals on two keys.

That's cool Ripster, I knew doubleshots were possible but hadn't ever seen one. Yeah SP doesn't have the tech.

[Ragnorock]

K, will do lol. Honestly I'm starting to think that "dye sublimation" is just a misnomer, since sublimation would imply that they take a solid dye, like some sort of resin printed on a transfer sheet and then its sublimated into the key. They're probably the same thing.

[dorkvader]

Once we have a concrete idea for what we're ordering (with pricing), I'll see whether or not I'll do round1. Some of those dry-sub keycaps you posted a picture of earlier looked excellent, especially the apeture logo, the cake (lie!) and the turret.

I still feel that the two portal keys with 1/2 a guy emerging is the best idea, but I'll happily wait for round2 on that one.

[xmrxkrazy]

My F# keys usually get no love from me, they're just eye candy. I don't get why doubleshots are so important to most. White on Black dye-sublimation F-row keys sounded so good: simple and generic, and not to mention, good for the price. Why can't we all just get along :noidea:

[hashbaz]

My F# keys usually get no love from me, they're just eye candy. I don't get why doubleshots are so important to most. White on Black dye-sublimation F-row keys sounded so good: simple and generic, and not to mention, good for the price. Why can't we all just get along :noidea:

I covet doubleshots mainly for their sharpness and high contrast.

[xbb]

My F# keys usually get no love from me, they're just eye candy. I don't get why doubleshots are so important to most. White on Black dye-sublimation F-row keys sounded so good: simple and generic, and not to mention, good for the price. Why can't we all just get along :noidea:

You can't do white on black I think.
Anyway I got a Cherry dye sub set (PBT) and feels way better than the doubleshot one. Plus it doesn't become shiny easily. I've yet to see a shiny PBT key or dye sub legends wearing out.

[one_each]

As long as they won't wear off then I'll still be up for a set.  Like Dorkvader, I can wait for the second run for the two portal guys.

From the All About Keys Wiki, the best on the InterToobs.  Many try to copy.  Few succeed.

Pfftthththt  Copy on teh interwebs is easy.  Just need a host.

[Ragnorock]

Okay so I've given Ichitz some instructions on tweaking the keycaps for our actual run. Once those get submitted and final quotes returned, I'll start collecting orders. For white PBT keycaps and dry sublimation, we're looking at around $20 before shipping at 100 sets, which is what I'm looking to get. You've all seen those figures before so hopefully that isn't a surprise to anyone, our hopes of a $7 set are long gone. T.T

[keyboardlover]

Who made the svg files? Im looking for someone to help me with an svg file for another project...

[Ragnorock]

Ichitz, he posted early on in this thread, haven't seen him for a little while though. Hopefully he responds soon. If not I'll be reworking them myself. I downloaded Illustrator I just have to get it installed without telling Adobe

Anyways, talked to Melissa again, here's our final quote for 13 white PBT keycaps with dry sublimation and multicolored but mostly black legends:

Set of 13 keys with Different color:
25 sets          $22.75 / set
50 sets          $20.26 / set
75 sets          $19.42 / set
100 sets        $19.01 / set

I'm shooting for 100 sets and at least 75. Orders (people ordering, not sets) will probably be capped at 100. Not making a thread until she gets the finalized designs and sends me a picture of what everyone is getting for their hard earned $20 bucks.


These are the changes I proposed for the designs, yes I'm aware almost none of you know which key is which.

F0: No change, stays all black
F1: Make the heart a nice pink color, kinda light but strong enough to be prominent against a white background.
F2: No change, black
F3: No change, black
F4: No change, black
F5: No change, black
F6: Make the goop blue
F7: Make the goop orange
F8: Make the flames red
F9: No change
F10: One portal blue, one orange, and dark blue walkway, black person. You should also be able to reduce the gap around the person's legs over the walkway because we are no longer doing doubleshots.
F11: Blue Aperture Logo
F12: Black cake, red cherry, green stem


\KL, if I end up having to do my own svgs, I'll probably be down to do what you need.

[keyboardlover]

Nice, price sounds decent for dyesubs.

\KL, if I end up having to do my own svgs, I'll probably be down to do what you need.

Thanks. More info on what I need in this thread.

[hashbaz]

$22.75 - $19.01?  That is an awfully thin spread.

[Quarzac]

$22.75 - $19.01?  That is an awfully thin spread.

Likely because they're not really well outfitted for subbing keys, and cater more towards doubleshots.

[hashbaz]

Makes sense. :-/

[ichitz]

Ichitz, he posted early on in this thread, haven't seen him for a little while though. Hopefully he responds soon. If not I'll be reworking them myself. I downloaded Illustrator I just have to get it installed without telling Adobe

Sorry, been kinda off the forums lately. Got a project due on Wednesday. I'll get you the SVGs on Wednesday if not sooner

[Ragnorock]

Okay, cool man. That works out fine.

[gmorf33]

When you get the final designs, can you post the pic(s) in the first post to make it easier to see what's up?

Thanks for all the work you're doing on this Rags!

[Ragnorock]

I'm doing my best to get a picture of the actual keycaps everyone will be getting to help with ordering, but Melissa said they don't normally do that before money is exchanged and production is started. She said she'd try and work something out. If not yeah I'll be posting the svgs for everyone to see. Actually Ichitz, it might help if you were to post some svgs or jpegs with a white background for everyone to see in addition to the ones with a transparent background for me to send to SP. Larger in size too since  the SVGs are pretty small on my browser.

[one_each]

When you get the final designs, can you post the pic(s) in the first post to make it easier to see what's up?

Thanks for all the work you're doing on this Rags!

Ragnorock will make a new thread for orders and the pictures will be shown there.

[Persona]

I'll be in for one!

[noodles256]

in for one

[kaiserreich]

In for one

[dorkvader]

I'm doing my best to get a picture of the actual keycaps everyone will be getting to help with ordering, but Melissa said they don't normally do that before money is exchanged and production is started. She said she'd try and work something out. If not yeah I'll be posting the svgs for everyone to see. Actually Ichitz, it might help if you were to post some svgs or jpegs with a white background for everyone to see in addition to the ones with a transparent background for me to send to SP. Larger in size too since  the SVGs are pretty small on my browser.

 Can't you use ctrl+ to zoom in? Or you can open the SVG in inkscape or other vector editor and export them to a raster format.

Thanks for all the work you're putting in to this.