Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint

[ironman31]

How much would they have to expect to sell for them to have gone through with it?
They seemed like they had more advertising than any mechanical keyboard I've seen (was featured in a little of well known PC magazines), and pretty much everyone on here was stoked about getting one.

[lowpoly]

I'm currently thinking about a smaller scale production or a kit.

Product and development would be simplified:

• machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
• machined mouse buttons
• no USB hub
• use an existing controller like the Teensy
• no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later

I'd do the mechanical construction and switch pcb development myself.

It will take some time. No new deadline! :wink:

Advantage of a kit would be a simplified legal situation (think EMV testing).

This approach will most likely destroy any chances for competitive pricing though.

What do you think?

[clickclack]

=)
... I do have more to say but I wanted to smile first

[clickclack]

...I think it's a very interesting idea!
-machined case, I think that would be cool, but honestly anything would be cool, so no worries there.

-machined mouse buttons, again would be cool, but that's not a worry

-no usb hub, as in an extra one? or as in a detacheable cable? If "extra" We don't really need an extra one, so no worries there. Edit: I see you did mean the extra usb hub, I don't really see a problem with that.

-Existing controller, hey if it works well then no worries! Should be great.

-nay on multi-platform...  I am a simple user so I don't see a problem. Perhaps current softwares could cover this?

-"Kit" sounds like fun, even low production sounds good.

Maybe I will have something more useful to say in a second...
Let the cogs mesh!



Edit: ooops, this was supposed to be in that same post above.

[WhiteRice]

[itlnstln]

What WhiteRice said.  Anything that makes the MiniGuru come to life.  Can we still have Chocolate Creme?

[lowpoly]

-no usb hub, as in an extra one? or as in a detacheable cable? If "extra" We don't really need an extra one, so no worries there.

Detachable cable but no additional USB ports.

Two things of which I'm not 100% sure if they can  be solved:

The pointing stick unit must be available in smaller quantities. For ex. Alps wasn't very interested when I asked for 10000, they had to think about it first.

The Teensy (or whatever) must be able to scan the keyboard and read the ps/2 signal from the stick. Possible in theory but might become difficult.

[itlnstln]

I would have thought 10,000 would have been a pretty good-sized MOQ.

[lowpoly]

Can we still have Chocolate Creme?

Should be possible. That's why I was never really interested in the all black, plastic case, ANSI only, made in China option.

[lowpoly]

I would have thought 10,000 would have been a pretty good-sized MOQ.

I talked to another manufacturer and first thing they told me was that they don't even start to think about a new input control (like a capacitive sensor) if you don't buy in the six digit range. It was upper six digit range, IIRC.

[sixty]

use the unicomp sticks, lol.

[ironman31]

When I saw that this thread was brought back from the dead I was hoping it was a post from lowpoly... and sure enough, it was. Great news to hear. Ill definitely be a customer if the price isn't too ridiculous, and seeing that I'm about to buy that bumble bee keyboard, I don't think it should be too much of a problem

[42.tar.gz]

What do you think?

Sounds great, I agree with WhiteRice. I was really looking forward to the Miniguru; would have been the perfect keyboard IMHO.
Regarding the controller: the AIKON seems to be quite nice. As far as I can see, it's not able to read a PS/2 signal, though. :-/

[AndrewZorn]

Show Image

EXACTLY

I was linked here, and read the bad news.  I was quite down, went to last page to leave another sad face response.

And THEN THIS.

[woody]

I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.

[J888www]

As to the Pointing Stick, some people rarely would use due to their fingers not being as nimble. How many people in this Forum actually use a Pointing Stick ? I have it on my ThinkPad but I can't seem to recall ever using this PS.

In "Kit Form", now that's interesting, it would create more bonding with your tool if you had to assemble to make it functional.

All in all, everyone would have differences in opinion, so just build it to suit yourself. I surmise that if you're happy with the result, most others would be likewise.

Glad to hear there is now the existence of "Hope".

[hasu]

It is great to hear about reviving MiniGuru!
MiniGuru drove me into keyboard modding.

I hope the firmware code is open for people customizing on their needs.
AIKON is not open IIRC. I think Teensy or AVR is a reasonable choice.

Regarding the controller: the AIKON seems to be quite nice. As far as I can see, it's not able to read a PS/2 signal, though. :-/

[WhiteRice]

Give me a machined case, pcb, and controller. I will be happy everything else is a pleasant extra.

I can imagine the difficulty in obtaining components. Best of luck!

[Azuremen]

Very excited to see this going again. Would most certainly be interested in one as well provided the price isn't too crazy. The pointing stick would be amazing to have as well, if just to reduce how often my hands have to leave the keyboard. I honestly can't think of a keyboard I want more than this.

Best of luck with this and keep us up to date!

[victheslik]

-

[CeeSA]

i am looking forward to it! one reason i joined geekhack was the miniguru

[(X "_____")]

Great news, I'm really looking forward to this. Best of luck with production.

[hasu]

I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.

I am happy to help on firmware too, if code and developing process is open.
...and if you are patient with my Engrish.

I am ready to start

Teensy and TrackPoint Unit(PS/2) for development:

[WhiteRice]

Oh wow that's pretty neat hasu. Took me a moment to figure out what was going on is those pictures.

[eMps]

Oh, the excitement! I can't wait!

[iMav]

I'm a big trackpoint fan.  I'd love to see a decent, portable keyboard with a decent trackpoint.  My M4-1's are nice, but mechanical switches and USB would be nice.

[JBert]

I'm currently thinking about a smaller scale production or a kit.[/quot]Perfect!

Product and development would be simplified:

-machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
-machined mouse buttons

Okay, I don't particularly care for metal but if it turns out to be cheaper than plastic, fine for me. I won't have a metalworking shop soon.

-no USB hub

Fine, this saves space in the case.

-use an existing controller like the Teensy
-no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later

Actually, this choice would mean a couple of things:
-Mass ordering Teensy boards would mean that Europeans wouldn't have to order from PJRC directly so it saves a bit on shipping.
-The Teensy has its own software for programming: TeensyLoader. It is multi-platform already!


Price would be some issue for me, though an indication of the price range would help much. At any rate, it would probably cheaper and more refined than anything I would come up with.

[didjamatic]

I like metal, lowpoly and this project.  Hope it works out!

[nanu]

Fine, this saves space in the case.

If you mean it gets displaced by air, good; the miniguru wouldn't be what it is if the case profile turns into a flat rectangular tray.

[sudowork]

Didn't have time to read through the entire thread, but here's my input:

Necessary:
Mini-footprint with function keys being accessible through a function key
A nice switch, preferably an option to choose between switches
Trackpoint + mouse buttons
Detachable USB cable
I'm a Dvorak user, so blank caps would be a plus (or something that's not too explicit)

Extraneous goodies:
Machined housing
USB Hub
Color customization

The kit idea would be something I would be up for if it's going to make this thing happen. Really I just want a mini-guru type keyboard to go to production. I had my hopes up for the guru, and if there's a product that can match 80% of those expectations I would buy it.

[mkawa]

machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
machined mouse buttons
no USB hub
use an existing controller like the Teensy
no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later

I'd do the mechanical construction and switch pcb development myself.

very interested in the possibility of a kit.

my suggestion would be to aim for a parts-level kit where custom parts are made in small/medium runs and parts lists are crowd-sourced/made available for commonly available bits. ie, design and sell a chassis and boards and let the community populate the rest as it wishes.

this keeps your risk/investment relatively low, and insulates you from many of the ridiculous but inevitable demands that people will have. basically, design for simplicity of construction and extensibility and let people populate their own product as they wish. the trackpoint, for example, can just be mounting points in the chassis and a pinout for the unicomp controller/stick, which builders would be free to source on their own.

you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.

in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.

anyway, please keep people updated.

[sudowork]

you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.

in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.

anyway, please keep people updated.

Yeah, I agree. I think following AMB's model would be a good step. They basically just produce the PCB's, and some of the more idiosyncratic parts. Other parts are just sourced from common electronics dealers. I actually have built two products from the AMB line (gamma DAC and M^3 amp). This also leaves a market for professional builders for those not up to the DIY job.

[sixty]

Love the idea of the kits, though most members will be too greedy/cheap/poor to afford it, judging by comments on the mentions of the previous Korean kits.

As for those expecting it to be cheaper than plastic...

With the current setup, pcb, switches and a decent quality cnc engineered metal case I think we are looking at $300-500 per keyboard, probably more if lowpoly has it done here in the EU. And that is assuming you stuff on your own keycaps.

[lowpoly]

Thanks for the comments.

I'm currently planning with 100 units (this may change later on).

I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.

I am happy to help on firmware too, if code and developing process is open.
...and if you are patient with my Engrish.

I am ready to start

Teensy and TrackPoint Unit(PS/2) for development:
[pics]

Open controller software development would be great! Awesome work in the "Alternative Controller ..." thread btw.

I wonder if it is possible to have an option without trackpoint and mouse buttons just a stand alone keyboard hmm...

I'll check this when I finally contact companies/individuals for CNC machining. The (minor) problem with the stick-less body is that it has no cut-outs for the mouse buttons.

-Mass ordering Teensy boards would mean that Europeans wouldn't have to order from PJRC directly so it saves a bit on shipping.

I have to check what kind of CE-testing is required for this type of product.

If you mean it gets displaced by air, good; the miniguru wouldn't be what it is if the case profile turns into a flat rectangular tray.

I agree. However, the current case has a height of 22.4mm if you put it upside down on a desk. This requires 100x25mm flat material. Using 100x20mm material instead would make the raw aluminum cheaper by 1/5 (Eur15,60 instead of Eur20,00 +tax for each). Will also depend on how much additional material the machining requires. I don't know that yet.

my suggestion would be to aim for a parts-level kit where custom parts are made in small/medium runs and parts lists are crowd-sourced/made available for commonly available bits. ie, design and sell a chassis and boards and let the community populate the rest as it wishes.

this keeps your risk/investment relatively low, and insulates you from many of the ridiculous but inevitable demands that people will have. basically, design for simplicity of construction and extensibility and let people populate their own product as they wish. the trackpoint, for example, can just be mounting points in the chassis and a pinout for the unicomp controller/stick, which builders would be free to source on their own.

you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.

in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.

anyway, please keep people updated.

These are good ideas. I'll have a look at amb.org.

For keyboard parts it may make sense to buy larger quantities as there's usually a significant price drop included (like switches or keycaps).

[WhiteRice]

So I finally figured what I can do to help. I'm not sure if you have a keycap solution in mind, but I have dealt with Signature Plastics in the past.

If needed let me know the specifications.

[Lanx]

i think if you were to offer the casing alone as well members would find that awesome, at least I do.

[lowpoly]

So I finally figured what I can do to help. I'm not sure if you have a keycap solution in mind, but I have dealt with Signature Plastics in the past.

If needed let me know the specifications.

I was just going to contact SP.

Help would be great, thank you.

Specifications:

Standard alpha part ANSI 61 keys, ISO 62 keys.

I guess it would be cheapest to take what they have but I'd prefer if it was Cherry compatible (stabilizers, space bar switch position, etc).

Choice of stabilizers will affect pcb and maybe body construction.

They probably have black and white but what about additional colors: gray, cream, brown (with black lettering)?

With and without symbols?

Maybe ISO languages?

Materials? Edit: Lasered? Double Shot?

Edit2: And a swirl key would be nice!

Edit3: Control keys for CapsLock position and additional blank keys for the spacebar row (even with symbol sets).

To keep it simple, quotes for 5 and 10 units would be fine. Less than 5 will be too expensive, more than 10 won't happen that often. Quotes should include stabilizers.

For the curious, here's what chimera15 found out:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58

Significant price drop from 5 units on.

[J888www]

If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.

[JBert]

As for those expecting it to be cheaper than plastic...

With the current setup, pcb, switches and a decent quality cnc engineered metal case I think we are looking at $300-500 per keyboard, probably more if lowpoly has it done here in the EU. And that is assuming you stuff on your own keycaps.

What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...

Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.

[victheslik]

-

[lowpoly]

If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.

Great, thank you. :-)

What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...

Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.

Tooling cost for a mold is very expensive. There is no room for error. If you find a siginificant error after tooling you pay again. So you need someone to design it for you (I could't do that). With CNC machining errors can happen too but there is a lot less cost involved. Also, I can machine a prototype myself to see how it works, I have a mill (no CNC). I just ordered a block of aluminum.

Also, I'm not a fan of painted plastic.

I meant to say no track point, and no mouse clicks as well. Just a stand alone keyboard my mistake... what would be really lovely if you did a collab with Click Clak and made a titanium body, with titanium keycaps oh.... the beauty...

Sounds good. Titanium color would have to be painted though.

[lowpoly]

If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.

Great, thank you. :-)

What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...

Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.

Tooling cost for a mold is very expensive. And there is no room for error. If you find a siginificant error after tooling you pay again. So you need someone to design it for you (I wouldn't do that myself). With CNC machining errors can happen too but there's a lot less cost involved. Also, I can machine a prototype myself to see how it works, I have a mill (no CNC). Currently waiting for the first block of aluminum.

Also, I'm not a fan of painted plastic.

what would be really lovely if you did a collab with Click Clak and made a titanium body, with titanium keycaps oh.... the beauty...

Would love to do that. Titanium color would have to be painted though. :-)

[Oqsy]

[lowpoly]

[pic]

I put a new caption on the product page. :-)

As for keycaps, the crud of the SP caps may be a problem as the lower edge is out in the open.

[Mr. Fish]

This keyboard is literally what got me interested in getting a Mechanical keyboard, I just thought it was such a great idea for a keyboard like that, especially the trackpoint appeals to me.

I may not be able to afford the cost of it if it's not being mass-produced (or at all really) but it is very exciting that you're making a kit.

Best of luck to you.

[lowpoly]

Edit: ^^^ Thanks! And welcome to geekhack.

Got confirmation today that the Pointing Stick unit will be available in quantities of 100!

Also got this:



Heavy.

[RoboKrikit]

O_O

That does look heavy.

[victheslik]

-

[lowpoly]

No, we'll see how the numbers will be, eventually. This may also depend on availability of the KBC40.

[bpiphany]

Is it possible to subscribe to a thread without posting anything in it? Can't seem to find a link...

This is a very interesting project =)

I have a couple of related questions that I thought I'd post here to see if anyone can give me answers to them.

I have a small keyboard building project of my own and I'm looking for the cherry stabilizers. I have two sets of unprinted filco keysets to play around with with 6.25 key wide spacebars. I bought cherry switches from mouser.com and they have leveling mechanisms for 7, 8, 9 and 10 key wide space bars. I figure they won't fit my space bars..

Is it possible to get cherry keycaps from somewhere in smaller quantities? All sorts of widths would be interesting, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, 2.0, 2.25, 2.5, 2.75, 6.0, 7.0 and 8.0. Cherry has some data on their homepage for keycaps. No pruduct numbers and I can't seem to find them anywhere either. The standard version would fit me perfect if I could get them somewhere.. Then swapping them around among the rows wouldn't be any problem either.