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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: Morning Song on Sat, 08 May 2010, 12:14:33

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Morning Song on Sat, 08 May 2010, 12:14:33

I've been a trackball user for many years, starting with what i think was an ancestor of the CH DT225 that my father had. For the last few years i've been using (and enjoying despite the weaknesses) a Kensington scroll-ringy expert mouse.

I've been looking into replacing it with something a little more durable (I've had two warranty replacements on this one, though i have to say, Kensington's warranty service is *amazing*), and the two candidates for good big trackballs seem to be the DT225 and the CST L-trac.

So, basically, i'm wondering, what do people who've used either (or both!) of these think of them? How smoothly do they roll, and track? How's scrolling?

I'm a little concerned with the DT225 that there's no scrolling, and if the one i remember from years back is right, the upper two buttons are hardwired to be clicklock--is that accurate? If so, has anyone modded one to change this, or to add scrolling?

And i've noticed people have made extra-button assemblies for the L-Trac.. is that hard to do if one has never soldered? If so, does anyone like.. sell buttons you can just plug in?

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 08 May 2010, 13:04:05

I like both.  You can always click scroll with the DT 225 and that's what I learned to do before I received the CST unit.  

Much easier and cheaper to get the CST at retail.   And probably a better buy since it has a scroll wheel, even though I feel that it's located inconveniently.  

skc

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 May 2010, 13:38:52

I find it hard to imagine how the CH could top the CST...

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: duhokay on Sat, 08 May 2010, 23:36:18

Being able to adjust the dpi on the fly with the CST has been great as well, I am using multiple 30" monitors and it is very convenient. Agree with the scroll location though I have gotten used to it.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Morning Song on Sun, 09 May 2010, 05:32:30

This sounds like a pretty clear verdict. :) Thanks everyone!

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: JulienC on Sun, 09 May 2010, 14:30:46

Quote from: duhokay;180306

I am using multiple 30" monitors [...]

Nice, I suggest you post a picture in the Computing setup pics (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=3915) thread.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: duhokay on Mon, 10 May 2010, 00:30:39

Sure.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Morning Song on Mon, 10 May 2010, 19:49:20

Fentek? Oh wow... i bought a mini-keyboard-with-touchpad from them yeeeeeeeears ago. I called my half-laptop.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Multiple on Tue, 29 March 2011, 11:10:01

So, the CST is superior to DT225, but what does that mean exactly?

I wonder if the DT225 can be used comfortably with three displays at 1920x1200...

With comfortable I mean, would it be possible to flick between the displays with no effort (one flick?) and still be able to move the cursor pixel by pixel at will, when needed?

For reference, I can not do this with a deathadder, my pixel precision using it is +/- 2 pixels when I'm doing my best to pinpoint a pixel. A flick (meaning, nudging the mouse with some force using the thumb or hand) with some kind of precision is half a screen at most. Obviously I could drag the cursor from one screen to the other, with some precision, but that's not comfortable in any way.

Sorry for the corny question, I guess I could just ask whether the DT225 is miserably slow on high res screens..

But I ask for some kind of reference which I could relate to.

My reasons to ask about the DT225 (and not the CST) is its design, it seems to be built better and be more ergonomic for prolonged usage. That is what I believe from looking at the pictures anyway.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 11:22:55

Quote from: ripster;180831

That's why they named it the... Clearly Superior Trackball.

But... they used to be called "Microspeed" (and that's what mine says). Was that from back when they were Clearly Inferior?

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Multiple on Tue, 29 March 2011, 11:24:18

OK,

I guess that settles it for me. It will have to be a CST L-TracX...

Although, I figure a beige DT225 would look much sharper next to an IBM XT keyboard compared to a black CST. Also someone got a hurt elbow using the CST.

Being able to use it must however be the bare minimum requirement..

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 29 March 2011, 11:30:43

I just want to show some DT225 love. I know I'm outnumbered, and I've never used a CST so I can't compare the two at all, but the CH DT225 *is* a great trackball ;)

I won't touch a mouse, pad, or track point any more when I have a choice. Big balls are a blast!

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 11:33:23

My #1 problem with the Microspeed (CST) trackball is that it occasionally gets "crunchy" and doesn't roll smoothly. That's the main reason I was searching to buy a DT225. I want something like the Microspeed, but much smoother rolling that doesn't jam.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: kidchunks on Tue, 29 March 2011, 12:19:26

I had the same issue with the stock ball on my L-trac. Would get stuck and not roll smoothly. I replaced it with a billiards ball and that fixed the issue. The billiard ball being heavier makes it easier to move smoothly. At least for me it did.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 29 March 2011, 12:25:57

When in doubt, more massive balls!

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 29 March 2011, 14:29:28

Quote from: ripster;320830

Smart engineers.  Why reinvent the Wheel?

In the same thread with ppl that can't operate tracking device without scroll wheel :P

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 29 March 2011, 14:58:08

The scroll wheel is why I stopped using my CH trackball. Ripster's right, porn needs a modern scrolling interface.

That reminds me, I probably need to sell that thing.  I haven't used it since the day I got it.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: jpc on Tue, 29 March 2011, 14:59:49

I can't stand my CST. Too much dorsiflexion as-is... and the thin end of the wedge-shaped CST prevents putting a palm rest where you really need one.

The KEM is perfect right out of the box. I need to write a review, it's been my daily for 6 months and is a major missing option on this thread.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 29 March 2011, 15:02:28

Oh my.  A little on the saggy side, but I'd motorboat it.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 15:19:45

Quote from: ripster;320885

And Canv.as - I don't want my wife to think all I do is look at porn.

Show Image

(http://canv.as/ugc/processed/4f752796ac3b729103463fa44d5183d1da4c2373.jpeg)

She's not wearing her seatbelt, but I suppose she's pretty safe with those personal airbags.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 15:40:32

Quote from: ripster;320731

Crunchy?  You can email them and get the POM (delrin) bearings replaced.

Well, I bought this trackball around 9 years ago, so I doubt I can get support for it. I think the problem is the metal rollers. They have sharp edges and when the ball rolls at an angle, it sometimes scratches the ball. Every time I open it, I see lots of fine... ball shavings. (ooh, that sounds painful)

Why aren't there any purely optical trackballs? If mice can work without balls and detect movement, why can't there be a trackball that just glides without rollers (on some kind of frictionless material), while the optical part detects ball movement?

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 29 March 2011, 15:44:42

I keep coming in here to check the new posts, but I can't stop looking at the pic.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 29 March 2011, 16:41:49

Quote from: ripster;320885

And Canv.as - I don't want my wife to think all I do is look at porn.

Show Image

(http://canv.as/ugc/processed/4f752796ac3b729103463fa44d5183d1da4c2373.jpeg)

Holy Trackballs!

:jaw:

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 29 March 2011, 17:59:03

For sone reason "Low Rider" by War keeps playing over and over in my head.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 20:02:48

Quote from: ripster;321032

You must mean the Zooey one. She's wholesome and that's why I like her.

No way should you be getting shavings from your trackball.

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7762&stc=1&d=1265649793)

You better pop it open using the links in my sig.

No need to follow your links. I've opened this thing more times than I can count. (and I can count pretty high)

Your CST seems to be using a different sensing method than mine (how times change...). Is that roller plastic coated?

The rollers on mine have very sharp edges.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16471&stc=1&d=1301450398)

The ball is scratched all over. I couldn't get a good picture, but it's covered with small scratches - and some big ones. I have another Microspeed trackball (with a black ball) that's the same.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16472&stc=1&d=1301450398)

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 20:16:08

No, they're all exactly as they should be - unless you mean it wasn't positioned properly in manufacturing. It's possible. My first MicroSpeed trackball was a dud and had to be sent back for exchange.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 20:22:29

Well the rollers aren't flat - they're slightly concave (see picture). Maybe that's the problem.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 29 March 2011, 20:52:49

Quote from: ripster;321090

The ball/metal contact surface is quite flat.  Just checked it with a straightedge.

You checked my rollers with a straightedge? How did you get into my house??

Your rollers may be flat. Mine aren't.

Quote from: ripster;321090

You have the bearings mounted with the long peg down?

Well, duh. (that means yes :wink:)

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 30 March 2011, 01:01:13

The DT225 is fairly stiff and heavy, and not optical, if you care about the guts.

A PS/2 one can be rigged to have the top buttons be the centre button if you want.  Then you can map middle-drag to scroll with something.

I have one somewhere, but the last trackball I tried was a Kensington Orbit (nice enough for 25 bucks after rebate at the time)

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 30 March 2011, 01:04:18

@mr_a500:

The mouse can slide because you're moving the sensor, so you just make the box smooth enough and you don't need a ball or bearings.

The sensor stays put for a trackball, so you'd have to have, say, a teflon ring that cradled the ball and held it over the sensor.  It would likely wear fast (notice the people buying replacement feet for their mice)

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Wed, 30 March 2011, 08:46:44

Quote from: ripster;321113

The rollers look flat in your picture.  I can see a straight line in the reflection mid right.  Examine the wearpoints on the metal.

You've put a straightedge to it?

It was tricky getting a good picture of it with my cheapo camera, but here it is:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16482&stc=1&d=1301495744)

Even if I ignored my eyes (and entire ocular system including the basal ganglia), I can feel the whole retched concavity of the thing.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Multiple on Wed, 30 March 2011, 22:15:54

I don't get it, why don't CST use ball transfer units?

http://www.skf.com/cmimages/242653.jpg (http://www.skf.com/cmimages/242653.jpg)

Ought to give a superior feel and not to hard to mod, by one self, if the laser tracks the ball surface..

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Wed, 30 March 2011, 22:40:21

Quote from: ripster;321338

Sphere on flat bearing.  Notice a bit of shininess but no wear after a couple years of hard use.

Show Image

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5174/5574767767_4bfe98f01c_z.jpg)

And no fapping with 220 Aluminum Oxide!

Ah. Notice the wear in the centre. Yours seems to be designed correctly. Oh, how I envy you.

I better buy a few CST replacements.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Multiple on Wed, 30 March 2011, 22:48:11

It's a omni directional work load though, if the ball rotates in a direction other than the single axis bearing there will be friction. Is it not possible to notice this?

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: theferenc on Wed, 30 March 2011, 22:52:54

For reference, you can get a straight reflection in a concave surface. Try it with a spoon, if you don't believe me. It just depends on the focal distance.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Thu, 31 March 2011, 09:45:42

Quote from: Multiple;321754

I don't get it, why don't CST use ball transfer units?

http://www.skf.com/cmimages/242653.jpg (http://www.skf.com/cmimages/242653.jpg)

Ought to give a superior feel and not to hard to mod, by one self, if the laser tracks the ball surface..

Yes! That's exactly what I want. I have vague memories that I once tried an industrial trackball (very large heavy ball, built into a counter top) that sat on top of bearings like that. It was super smooth.

(...or maybe that was a dream I had... can't remember... going senile)

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: craZivn on Sat, 02 April 2011, 12:52:50

I pulled my brand-new L-TracX apart and lubed all the axles with DOW33, including the axle for the scroll wheel. Looks like they had some kind of similar grease on the roller bearings already, but I re-did everything with the DOW33 and she's silky-smooth now!
Especially noticeable in the scroll wheel, where there was no lube at all before.

CZI

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: steeef on Sat, 02 April 2011, 13:34:33

Man, this is making it really tempting to justify replacing my kensington trackball with a laser CST.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Oqsy on Sat, 02 April 2011, 19:41:50

You refer to lots of stuff as "____ killer/killah" I wonder how much time you spend preparing for the comparisons.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: Grimey on Tue, 05 April 2011, 01:54:47

Pulled the trigger today on a MLTRACPSUB from fentek for work.  The woman on the phone seemed surprised that I only wanted to order one, but helpful regardless.  We mostly do linux/unix stuff at work so this should be a good place to practice.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: mr_a500 on Tue, 05 April 2011, 03:10:17

Quote from: Grimey;324802

Pulled the trigger today on a MLTRACPSUB from fentek for work.

That's weird.... I didn't think those things had triggers.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: BucklingSpring on Tue, 05 April 2011, 09:56:33

Quote from: ripster;320709

I can tell you the DT225 would struggle with a multimonitor setup.

With my U3011/FP2001 setup I'm even thinking of upgrading my CST to  the 3200dpi model.

So you finally made the move to the U3011. Is it up to its price?

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: BucklingSpring on Tue, 05 April 2011, 12:47:09

Quote from: ripster;324966

In real life my balls are neither blue nor this small.

Are they green and even smaller?
(http://www.chinawholesaletown.com/wholesale-Portable-Finger-Hand-Held-4D-Usb-Mini-Trackball-Mouse_1253289074d44adad6eb45220101225.jpg)

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: British on Wed, 06 April 2011, 08:17:33

Regarding the CST, do they still have "built-in" acceleration (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=252160&postcount=44) ?

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 07 April 2011, 08:55:37

Can anybody put up a video of them actually using a CST L-Trac? Can't find one for the life of me and it looks like it would be awkward to use the scroll bar and middle click.

I have the Logitech M570 but wanted to buy a finger ball to give them a shot.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: craZivn on Thu, 07 April 2011, 13:25:51

Here ya go! Just shot it. As you can probably notice, I'm not really doing anything on the computer, just messing around a bit, running through the DPI settings, demonstrating the scrolling.
I have the top external button mapped to the main-click, bottom external is right-click, mouse right button is "browser back". Center and left mouse buttons are default (click-scroll and right-click respectively).

I realize watching the vid now that it doesn't look comfortable, looks like my hand is stretched over the mouse. That's certainly not the case! I put the external buttons along the side of the mouse because it feels more natural to let my thumb hang off the side and "pull in" towards the mouse to click, rather than push down for the regular mouse buttons.

I also noticed that whenever I scroll, my whole hand shifts up a bit on the mouse to reach the scroll wheel. Somehow this feels very natural.

I will say that the first couple of times I used this mouse (before I added the side-switches), I had a sort of ache in my hand afterward. Like you get after a good gym session. This went away, and I assume that it was due to the fact that I was using different muscles than I used to use to mouse, and they had to "tone in" a bit. Either way, it doesn't happen any more and I couldn't be more pleased with this trackball.

Sorry for the shoddy video quality, is was shot with my Nikon still-camera. If you would like a better vid, simply mention it and I'll be more than happy to shoot a sequence tonight with my Sony SR11. :)

Enjoy!
CZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my0oxKWgnzI

EDIT: Had some extra time so decided to shoot the higher-quality upload anyway, her it is! Still not great, but HD takes too long to upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3KA7bKKguw

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 07 April 2011, 20:58:09

Thanks for the video, I literally don't think there were any on youtube, or if there were they are well hidden. Somehow chainsaw injuries come up as relevant searches on youtube when viewing your video, I started watching those after in a sort of morbid fascination even though I have a weak stomach for those things haha.

Anyways, back on topic, it does seem like the scroll bar is a bit awkward to use, needing a hand repositioning each time to reach it. Ideally I'd like to not have to move my hand around at all when using a trackball but there seems to be a lot of positive attitude towards the L-Trac.

The other finger balls either with scroll wheels, toggling the ball between scrolling and moving (eg. logitech marble by holding a modifier button) or the peculiar exception of the kensington slimblade all seem like they would be more convenient, but I haven't tried so this is all just heresay. Have you tried any other finger balls you could compare with?

Perhaps I'm just a little spoiled with scrolling with the M570 as a starting trackball since the scrolling is so disconnected from the ball itself and your hand rests over the ball and scroll wheel easily at the same time with different digits that can be used simultaneously.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: craZivn on Thu, 07 April 2011, 22:13:00

Aha, that must be because I have a vid of my dad repairing a chainsaw wound on his leg uploaded on that same account! Weird though.

I had a Logitech Marble mouse (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/marblemouse-sm.jpg) that I used for several years, and it wasn't bad. Main faults were the low DPI, which really showed up when I got my HD monitor, and the lack of a scroll wheel. Those little buttons on the thing are useless IMO, in my three or so years with the mouse I never used them.

Moving the hand to scroll is rather inefficient now that you mention it, but I didn't notice it until I saw my own video, so it's a fairly natural movement. If you prefer to scroll with the ball, one of the L-Trac buttons can be mapped to a "click-and-hold" function which it simulates holding down the mouse button until you click again. So you can click the scroll bar and scroll with the mouse. The software that come with the L-Trac is very basic and very functional.

The Slimblade twist-scrolling feature sounds really cool, but it seems more convenient to me to only have to use one finger to scroll. That way, if I want to rapidly scroll up or down a page, I just have to use a little flick-flick-flick motion with my finger, instead of having to twist the ball around several revolutions. I'm just guessing here, I've never tried the Slimblade so they may have a software "cheat" to scroll faster.

In short, I was coming from a trackball that had aggravated me for years with a lack of scroll functions, so the several options that the L-TracX offers make me very happy. And the high DPI is indispensable.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: theferenc on Thu, 07 April 2011, 22:25:29

Actually, I don't have to move my hand on my CST. I rest the base of my palm just below the main buttons, and curl my fingers to move the ball with the tips. If I want to scroll, I just stretch them out.

It sounds awkward, but it feels totally natural for me, honestly. Plus, I use my thumb for primary and my pinky for secondary clicks, so I don't have to worry about removing my fingers from the ball to click. After a short adjustment period, the cursor doesn't move at all like many people complain about it. And when I say short, I mean it took me about 20 minutes after finding the most comfortable hand position for me.

Edit: Oh, and to REALLY rapidly scroll without using the keyboard, you can click the middle button, between the ball and scroll cylinder, and then use the ball itself to scroll insanely fast.

Title: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: craZivn on Thu, 07 April 2011, 23:32:06

Just tried your method, it's not bad. But I find it comfortable to splay my hand out over the mouse, most times my pinky will hang off the left side and my thumb hangs off the right (hence the external button placement).
The first thing I noticed about your style is that if you need to precisely target something with the cursor, you can stretch out your hand to "scrolling position" and manipulate the ball with the base of your fingers without repositioning your hand.

We need to start a gallery. "1,001 ways to handle your L-Trac".

CZI

Title: Re: Trackball: CST L-Trac or CH DT225
Post by: lasttycoon on Thu, 01 November 2018, 14:05:34

Quote from: craZivn on Thu, 07 April 2011, 13:25:51

Here ya go! Just shot it. As you can probably notice, I'm not really doing anything on the computer, just messing around a bit, running through the DPI settings, demonstrating the scrolling.
I have the top external button mapped to the main-click, bottom external is right-click, mouse right button is "browser back". Center and left mouse buttons are default (click-scroll and right-click respectively).

I realize watching the vid now that it doesn't look comfortable, looks like my hand is stretched over the mouse. That's certainly not the case! I put the external buttons along the side of the mouse because it feels more natural to let my thumb hang off the side and "pull in" towards the mouse to click, rather than push down for the regular mouse buttons.

I also noticed that whenever I scroll, my whole hand shifts up a bit on the mouse to reach the scroll wheel. Somehow this feels very natural.

I will say that the first couple of times I used this mouse (before I added the side-switches), I had a sort of ache in my hand afterward. Like you get after a good gym session. This went away, and I assume that it was due to the fact that I was using different muscles than I used to use to mouse, and they had to "tone in" a bit. Either way, it doesn't happen any more and I couldn't be more pleased with this trackball.

Sorry for the shoddy video quality, is was shot with my Nikon still-camera. If you would like a better vid, simply mention it and I'll be more than happy to shoot a sequence tonight with my Sony SR11. :)

Enjoy!
CZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my0oxKWgnzI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my0oxKWgnzI)

EDIT: Had some extra time so decided to shoot the higher-quality upload anyway, her it is! Still not great, but HD takes too long to upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3KA7bKKguw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3KA7bKKguw)

Do you have a link to where I can find that extra button attachment?