[GB] GMK WoB/BoW Icon extension kit - - KBDFANS INFO POSTED PAGE 4- -

[Khers]

I had a look at my set and they display all issues previously reported:

Ugly enters:




****y shifts:



Bad s:


GMK y u do dis?

[neon_tom]

Here’s my bad enter, shift, and escape keys.

[DSA1312]

Here are my worst.
Esc, tab, left shift and stepped caps lock seem fine.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Olivierko]

Same issue for the two sets that I got as well.
I got a crappy camera and I'm even worse of taking photos but here's my contribution to the skewed icons issue.

[fatalruin]

I have the same defects shown above.

[Okonomiyaki#2832]

At this point can Andy from GMK chime in?

[jakereps]

Just noticed this on Spy. Adding more photos in (fulfilled by CannonKeys):

- My Escapes seem ok (E looks off center, _but_ my Minimal set I'm typing on looks like it matches the same issue so definitely isn't new to GMK)
- WoB Enter is a squiggly line
- 1.75u WoB shift looks like graffiti art (a few others definitely aren't uniform)
- BoW Enter is also a squiggle.

Ignore this one: If I delete it it will show a large preview below so keeping mini to "hide" - super blurry.  IMG_2625 - Copy.JPG

[Mings7]

[Morgan3Wheeler]

[alpaone]

[flatwhitemyth]

My set has the same inconsistencies as previously reported. Additionally, it looks like the legending on the caps lock keys that have the LED window are printed or dye-subbed? The quality is quite poor and for the BoW you can see it's very hazy/not sharp. On the WoB it is far from as white and would be very noticeable compared to the doubleshot legends.

[LightningXI]

My set has the same inconsistencies as previously reported. Additionally, it looks like the legending on the caps lock keys that have the LED window are printed or dye-subbed? The quality is quite poor and for the BoW you can see it's very hazy/not sharp. On the WoB it is far from as white and would be very noticeable compared to the doubleshot legends.

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LED caps have always been pad-printed.

[crzone]

Pad printing seems to be similar to sets of the past. The pictures below are of GMK Blue Alert. The double shot molds seem to be the ones with issues.

[JFKroflcopter]

Don't have my camera on hand, so please pardon my phone pictures... Anyway, here are some photos detailing the inconsistencies.

Shift keys: uneven (droopy?) corners and varying line widths:



Enter keys: uneven (squiggly?) lines




Thanks so much, Emir!

[pockydavid]

Similar issues with previous posts, quite prominent in person.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[bigapplepietart]

Same problem here. Bought em’ from the Cannon Keys extras. Last pic is the first run of the WoB icon mods.

[Zurg Eon]

Got the set today.
Not uniform line on both ANSI enters.
Both WoB and BoW have grafitti-esque 1.75u and 1.25u shifts.
Bad s on WoB Esc. BoW Esc looks kind of better, but I don't think the s is perfect on that one either.
The line tapers in a bit towards the arrow on both numpad enters.
Other than that it's not too shabby.

'Scuse the bad photos. I'll make better ones if required.

[Emir]

We, Mykeyboard and myself, have been communicating the reported issues to GMK and had a proper discussion with GMKs CEO about the quality concerns.

He believe's that the majority of problems are within their tolerances as specified by the original Cherry specifications. Since such specifications are not public, we requested to have these specifications describing the expectations and tolerances in detail published online. We expected this to be done by now, but with the current COVID-19 situation they report to have more pressing problems that need to be addressed.

They also report that they are constantly working on improving the quality of their products and believe they already achieve better quality that the original specifications. We understand this is conflicting with the reported issues. It shows there is a clear problem between what the community, our customers are expecting and what GMK is expecting.

What does this all mean for the future and these reported issues?
If GMK publishes such documentation. vendors and customers alike can actively pursue quality issues accurately and without much doubts or confusion. This will give greater control to vendors to sort out a solution with GMK for customers who are reporting issues.

[jimboytacos]

We, Mykeyboard and myself, have been communicating the reported issues to GMK and had a proper discussion with GMKs CEO about the quality concerns.

He believe's that the majority of problems are within their tolerances as specified by the original Cherry specifications. Since such specifications are not public, we requested to have these specifications describing the expectations and tolerances in detail published online. We expected this to be done by now, but with the current COVID-19 situation they report to have more pressing problems that need to be addressed.

They also report that they are constantly working on improving the quality of their products and believe they already achieve better quality that the original specifications. We understand this is conflicting with the reported issues. It shows there is a clear problem between what the community, our customers are expecting and what GMK is expecting.

What does this all mean for the future and these reported issues?
If GMK publishes such documentation. vendors and customers alike can actively pursue quality issues accurately and without much doubts or confusion. This will give greater control to vendors to sort out a solution with GMK for customers who are reporting issues.

Thanks for the follow up emir, but does that mean my set with poor (shall I even say defected?) Icon legends has no hope to be fixed? Quite dissatisfied, and I understand that this is way out of your powers as well....
GB gone wrong?

[Emir]

We, Mykeyboard and myself, have been communicating the reported issues to GMK and had a proper discussion with GMKs CEO about the quality concerns.

He believe's that the majority of problems are within their tolerances as specified by the original Cherry specifications. Since such specifications are not public, we requested to have these specifications describing the expectations and tolerances in detail published online. We expected this to be done by now, but with the current COVID-19 situation they report to have more pressing problems that need to be addressed.

They also report that they are constantly working on improving the quality of their products and believe they already achieve better quality that the original specifications. We understand this is conflicting with the reported issues. It shows there is a clear problem between what the community, our customers are expecting and what GMK is expecting.

What does this all mean for the future and these reported issues?
If GMK publishes such documentation. vendors and customers alike can actively pursue quality issues accurately and without much doubts or confusion. This will give greater control to vendors to sort out a solution with GMK for customers who are reporting issues.

Thanks for the follow up emir, but does that mean my set with poor (shall I even say defected?) Icon legends has no hope to be fixed? Quite dissatisfied, and I understand that this is way out of your powers as well....
GB gone wrong?

I understand the disappointment and frustration, I share the same emotions.

It basically means that without GMK communicating exactly what they deem within specification and not, we can't pursue this further as we have no point of reference.

[ideus]

Disclaimer: I did not join this GB. However, based on a long career in quality engineering, I feel compelled to contribute with my grain of salt: A quality specification published after a customer's claim has been raised is a poor management practice, to say the least. Mainly because even vintage Cherry products exceed such "new" quality standards. Therefore, what the community expects is based on the keycaps already in the market.  Beyond technicalities, this seems like a deliberately and lame way for GMK to dismiss its responsibility to provide products that meet the customers' expectations. It appears that current management at the Company does not care about this community anymore. That may be understandable as other parties like Drop are giving more demand to GMK than GH. Shame on them.

[Audiobs]

We, Mykeyboard and myself, have been communicating the reported issues to GMK and had a proper discussion with GMKs CEO about the quality concerns.

He believe's that the majority of problems are within their tolerances as specified by the original Cherry specifications. Since such specifications are not public, we requested to have these specifications describing the expectations and tolerances in detail published online. We expected this to be done by now, but with the current COVID-19 situation they report to have more pressing problems that need to be addressed.

They also report that they are constantly working on improving the quality of their products and believe they already achieve better quality that the original specifications. We understand this is conflicting with the reported issues. It shows there is a clear problem between what the community, our customers are expecting and what GMK is expecting.

What does this all mean for the future and these reported issues?
If GMK publishes such documentation. vendors and customers alike can actively pursue quality issues accurately and without much doubts or confusion. This will give greater control to vendors to sort out a solution
with GMK for customers who are reporting issues.

Thanks for the update and trying your best! Are you guys asking GMK to replace the entire kit or just those affected keys? There shouldn't be any debate over the subpar quality, I have seen better quality on the cheapest keycaps. GMK replaced many keys from Oblivion V2 GB over spacing! I guess they only take care of the 'big' clients?! Perhaps the timing is wrong and I am sure they are affected by COVID19 as well. Please express to them that we don't mind waiting as long as they can replace those problematic keys.

I would suggest that you ask GMK to send you samples of production before taking any future delivery on Firefly, Nines R2 and other GBs. You should stop their production if you are not satisfied with the quality. And when you are, use the satisfactory set as a benchmark to compare with the final production sets in case of similar situation. GMK is obviously overwhelmed and couldn't handle the new demands. AND again, I am sure they are affected by COVID19 too. I think they will be more willing to fix the problem before the entire order is finished. Unfortunately, this would mean extra work for you, and I thank you for your hard work!

[Vigrith]

The huge problem here (not that the legends for this icon kit being ****ed up is not a big problem) is that the clearly defective moulds are being used for other sets that have been coming out - at least WOB Hiragana has the messed up enter, and if they continue to seep into sets that are currently in line to be produced because GMK thinks it's within their acceptable parameters and has no intent to fix them as for right now then that's not gonna be fun.

[Khers]

We, Mykeyboard and myself, have been communicating the reported issues to GMK and had a proper discussion with GMKs CEO about the quality concerns.

He believe's that the majority of problems are within their tolerances as specified by the original Cherry specifications. Since such specifications are not public, we requested to have these specifications describing the expectations and tolerances in detail published online. We expected this to be done by now, but with the current COVID-19 situation they report to have more pressing problems that need to be addressed.

They also report that they are constantly working on improving the quality of their products and believe they already achieve better quality that the original specifications. We understand this is conflicting with the reported issues. It shows there is a clear problem between what the community, our customers are expecting and what GMK is expecting.

What does this all mean for the future and these reported issues?
If GMK publishes such documentation. vendors and customers alike can actively pursue quality issues accurately and without much doubts or confusion. This will give greater control to vendors to sort out a solution with GMK for customers who are reporting issues.

RIP in peace, GMK.

[nasp]

Just to calm some anxiety, I didn't notice any issues with GMK Voyage, which uses OG Icons, and no issues have been raised as far as I'm aware. Maybe since Hiragana also had some issues that the problem is specific to BoW and WoB? But I don't work at GMK so I don't know what's going on.

[kekstee]

Yeah, could someone please smack them and make them focus on their core quality instead of ****ing novelty legends for a marketing picture?

[machine yearning]

LOL this community will screech about anything.

Half or more of my GMK sets have these sorts of legend inconsistencies.

Cool your jets nerds. They're still the best doubleshot keycaps around.

[Visionaire]

LOL this community will screech about anything.

Half or more of my GMK sets have these sorts of legend inconsistencies.

Cool your jets nerds. They're still the best doubleshot keycaps around.

Photographs please.

[Vigrith]

LOL this community will screech about anything.

Half or more of my GMK sets have these sorts of legend inconsistencies.

Cool your jets nerds. They're still the best doubleshot keycaps around.

3 posts

[nasp]

LOL this community will screech about anything.

Half or more of my GMK sets have these sorts of legend inconsistencies.

Cool your jets nerds. They're still the best doubleshot keycaps around.

3 posts

3 posts but his account was created on July 07, 2018, so I don't think it's someone specifically trying to criticize under the safety of anonymity.

[scoopbb]

LOL this community will screech about anything.

Half or more of my GMK sets have these sorts of legend inconsistencies.

Cool your jets nerds. They're still the best doubleshot keycaps around.

this would be a non starter if the prices reflected the quality. you pay premium prices because you expect premium items. if this is whats to be expected then i think plenty of people will start thinking twice about paying big money for subpar quality pieces of plastic.

[dorf]

I've done a comparison between keys in this GB and keys from the Zenna GB a couple of years ago.
For the enter key you can see the black bleeding over on to the white.
I don't see that much of a difference on shifts, maybe my set is one of the good?
And for the escape there is a slight difference on the s but nothing I would react over.

With that said, I do hope that GMK improves their quality rather than stating it's within specification.

Enter


Shifts


Esc

[Vigrith]

The shifts are definitely ****ed too - the bottom side lines are all messed up, seems to be far more prevalent on the shorter keys rather than the longer ones on your particular set though.

[jimboytacos]

I'm totally avoiding any and all gmk group buys utilizing ICON MODIFIERS until this is fixed. Hopefully this comes to light for those designers considering icon mods. Avoid.

[honoka]

pm me if you want to get rid of your kit

[necromanx]

Hi everyone.

I come with some good news from GMK.  After further reviewing the issues they have now decided to remanufacture the following keycaps and ship them to all vendors as replacements:

1.25u Shift (BoW & WoB)
1.75u Shift (BoW & WoB)
2.25u Return (BoW & WoB)

That is a total of six keycaps.

Furthermore the following is a response from GMK's CEO on the matter.

Although the quality of these key caps is acceptable considering regular industrial applications & conditions (according to a very strict Cherry guidelines manual that we keep) we understand that for the hobbyist community the quality observed may not have been enough.
Through this, we would like to reinforce our special care regarding the hobbyist enthusiasts. However we would like to take this opportunity to clarify that the double shot injection molding procedures and current technologies available in the market cannot possibly yield 100% flawless, replicable and exact results for every keycap.
While we take great care of our molds and are constantly implementing process of inspections and replacements as they wear, technical variables such as temperature and pressure of our machines between runs can be controlled only to a certain extent and slightly differ between the production runs
As a result, if examined under microscope and macro lens, it is sometimes possible to observe imperfections and variations that sometimes can't be entirely extinguished. This is because our key caps are meant to be used and observed at a viewing distance of about 45 cm, which translates to normal usage conditions. This time around we understand that the variations on a couple legends didn't meet pleasing characteristics to the naked eye at close.
We are constantly researching and looking for new methods and technologies to be implemented in our facilities, as the hobbyist community is a great part of our operation. The passion and support is very much appreciated.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Emir]

 

[LightningXI]

Excellent news on the replacements.

However, I do think Christoph's response makes sense that the hobbyist enthusiast standard is much higher and it may come off as excessive perfectionism. Good thing that they have decided in favor of supporting the enthusiast community, and even if late, have been responsive to the issues we are seeing in recent sets.

[Audiobs]

 

[jani80k]

The statement is bull****. I have so many Cherry OG keycaps (ABS doubleshots) from the 80s and 90s. All are flawless. At least they're waking up.
I wouldn't let them off the hook that easily. Seeing is believing.

[bliss]

The statement is bull****. I have so many Cherry OG keycaps (ABS doubleshots) from the 80s and 90s. All are flawless. At least they're waking up.
I wouldn't let them off the hook that easily. Seeing is believing.

Well put, my thoughts exactly: Production has been working fine for many years, and, let's face it, the technology is not rocket science. It seems the difficulty is to translate the superior quality into the present. And as always, the devil is in the details.

I have two GMK sets in the pipeline, one with icon mods (should come any day now) and the other with text mods (summer). Let's see how they turn out

[jani80k]

let's face it, the technology is not rocket science.

Exactly. We have such insane high tech companies in Germany who produce high tech precision stuff. And GMK is telling me, it is difficult to get a line straight on a keycap.

[flatwhitemyth]

Hi everyone.

I come with some good news from GMK.  After further reviewing the issues they have now decided to remanufacture the following keycaps and ship them to all vendors as replacements:

1.25u Shift (BoW & WoB)
1.75u Shift (BoW & WoB)
2.25u Return (BoW & WoB)

That is a total of six keycaps.

Has GMK indicated if they are simply re-manufacturing them, or if they will be fixing or remaking the tools for these keys? If they are not remaking the tooling, I would not consider this a slam-dunk fix.

I did a further inspection of the icon enters I have, and have noticed that this legending issue must have been creeping up over the years until it finally has been noticed. Below are (left to right): Hyperfuse Redux (2017), Modern Dolch (2018), WoB/BoW (2020). Redux legending is very straight and uniform thickness. Modern Dolch is a little wavy, and thickness is mildly tapering after the right-angle. WoB/BoW has that lump and more extreme thickness tapering.



Anecdotally I asked some other members how their icon enters turned out on other recent GMK sets, and they show similar issues (although maybe not as extreme as with this kit). I don't have more icon-based GMK to compare with, so I don't have more data points to form a more solid case of evidence, but this would generally indicate to me that they have been using the same tool, but it has been wearing out. The solution of re-making using the same tooling will not fix this issue; it seems only necessary to invest in new tooling to breathe new life into these icon mods.

[ideus]

This case appears to be the tipping point to start looking for alternative sources for Cherry style keycaps. When the company making the legendary double-shot caps -so key for our hobby - fails to produce the quality that is well known since Cherry times. GMK's CEO states that the enthusiast's market is overly picky. Reluctantly, he offers to replace sub-par quality keycaps; it is time to move on and stop paying premium prices for sub-par quality keycaps.

[jani80k]

This case appears to be the tipping point to start looking for alternative sources for Cherry style keycaps. When the company making the legendary double-shot caps -so key for our hobby - fails to produce the quality that is well known since Cherry times. GMK's CEO states that the enthusiast's market is overly picky. Reluctantly, he offers to replace sub-par quality keycaps; it is time to move on and stop paying premium prices for sub-par quality keycaps.

We're dealing with a case of a monopoly in a shortage economy. They can make fun of their customers ("microscope"), yet customers will still buy their product because they have no competition and the used prices for their stuff are higher than the retail prices.

I think their statement would look "a bit different" if they had 3-4 competitors who could supply the same product but with straight lines on enter keys.

[ideus]

This case appears to be the tipping point to start looking for alternative sources for Cherry style keycaps. When the company making the legendary double-shot caps -so key for our hobby - fails to produce the quality that is well known since Cherry times. GMK's CEO states that the enthusiast's market is overly picky. Reluctantly, he offers to replace sub-par quality keycaps; it is time to move on and stop paying premium prices for sub-par quality keycaps.

We're dealing with a case of a monopoly in a shortage economy. They can make fun of their customers ("microscope"), yet customers will still buy their product because they have no competition and the used prices for their stuff are higher than the retail prices.

I think their statement would look "a bit different" if they had 3-4 competitors who could supply the same product but with straight lines on enter keys.

JTK and the new DS-ePBT offering may have their chance to get a good share of this limited market. Yet, you have a point on GMK being a monopoly that has the luxury to behave like a villain and us, his minions, will cheer and keep buying his low-quality stuff.

[jani80k]

I don't think JTK and ePBT ABS can compete. Sadly. At least this is the general consensus amongst the "deep end" of this hobby.

[directheatedtriode]

I have so many Cherry OG keycaps (ABS doubleshots) from the 80s and 90s. All are flawless. At least they're waking up.

Same here. But I wouldn't even say it's just OG Cherry, GMK has made terrific keycaps even as recent as a year and a half ago with none of the issues seen here or in Oblivion V2. I really do hope future GB creators/vendors will be proactive if these issues continue to come up with GMK sets so they get the message they might want to look into their tooling/molds.

[bliss]

but this would generally indicate to me that they have been using the same tool, but it has been wearing out. The solution of re-making using the same tooling will not fix this issue; it seems only necessary to invest in new tooling to breathe new life into these icon mods.

Yes, my guess is the old machines and tools are wearing out and are hard to replace.

[jani80k]

It's not hard to make new molds. There is just a cost attached to it.