Author Topic: I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI  (Read 25720 times)

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Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 20:58:11 »

The picture above is probably the most exciting part of this post. But if you want to know more about a lone vikings journey into the grimdark world of Mekaniska Tangentbord, read on.

My quest began about four months ago when I started to really read up on mechanical keyboards. At first it was all about the Steelseries 6Gv2 but after getting more informed I found myself interested in the Filco Tenkeyless with brown switches. I even had an order on The Keyboard Company for it. Yesterday I decided to cancel it (they wont have them in stock for about 3 weeks anyway). Maybe I could find someone on geekhack or deskthority that was willing to sell one?

I put up threads both here and on deskthority (and scoured all the european auction sites i knew of). Sadly I havent gotten a single offer yet.

Until today I was completely set on getting an ISO keyboard.

But a post by Solutor (I think *cough*) got me thinking, how much of a bother would it actually be to switch over? I'm Swedish and so with the ANSI keyboard I would lose the keys for: <>| and *' while gaining one key above the return key.

I work as a copywriter (basically I write text for articles, ads and so on) and I also do search engine optimization. At home I play games and spend a lot of time on IRC. The plan is to buy two identical keyboards, one for work and one for home.

Congratulations if you made it this far. You have earned an internet cookie. If you skipped to this point, boo! So after all that rambling it comes down to this: Will a switch from ISO to ANSI be relatively painless or will I end up wanting to dropkick my keyboard? Maybe someone else that has made the switch is willing to share their experience.

Offline The Solutor

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 21:05:18 »
You must resist to the assimilation  :-)

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Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 21:07:26 »
I'm not entirely sure why you would lose <>| and * keys, I have them on my ANSI keyboard. I think what you will lose though is easy access to accented characters. I could be wrong about this, but doesn't Swedish use many extra diacritical marks not common in English? Umlauts, for instance.

Given that your profession requires that write professional copy that will be read by, I assume, many people, in Swedish, why would you want to add that headache?

Unless, of course, you're going to leave it mapped as a Swedish layout, but still use an ANSI keyboard. In that case, everything I wrote above you can safely ignore. The key above the return key could easily be used for <> and |, using the base key, shift, and alt-gr. You could probably toss * on there as well, as shift+alt-gr plus the key. And you can decide which would go on what layer, to optimize for what you do.

Also, Solutor, you have the order backwards in that pick.
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Offline bach0

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 21:20:54 »
I am a Mac user and although my Apple keyboard is ISO layout some of the symbols like @ and # are on the keys just like ANSI layout.

And I remember when I first switched to Mac, it was really annoying but after a week of usage I was use to it.

I didn't have to deal with accented letters & such though.

So my mechanical keyboard is going to be ANSI, only difference for me would be the small enter and big left shift key.

Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 21:34:58 »
Quote from: theferenc;378524
I'm not entirely sure why you would lose <>| and * keys, I have them on my ANSI keyboard. I think what you will lose though is easy access to accented characters. I could be wrong about this, but doesn't Swedish use many extra diacritical marks not common in English? Umlauts, for instance.

Given that your profession requires that write professional copy that will be read by, I assume, many people, in Swedish, why would you want to add that headache?

Unless, of course, you're going to leave it mapped as a Swedish layout, but still use an ANSI keyboard. In that case, everything I wrote above you can safely ignore. The key above the return key could easily be used for <> and |, using the base key, shift, and alt-gr. You could probably toss * on there as well, as shift+alt-gr plus the key. And you can decide which would go on what layer, to optimize for what you do.

Also, Solutor, you have the order backwards in that pick.
I would set it to use a swedish layout and get blank keys. This is what a swedish iso keyboard looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg

How easy is it to remap keys? If I remember correctly the key above return gets set as * when you just set an ANSI keyboard to Swedish. Would I need to use something like AutoHotkey or can I do it without having to use program?

Offline The Solutor

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 21:39:14 »
Quote from: Wihl;378545

How easy is it to remap keys? If I remember correctly the key above return gets set as * when you just set an ANSI keyboard to Swedish. Would I need to use something like AutoHotkey or can I do it without having to use program?

 
You can easily mod a default layout with the microsoft keyboard layout editor, and add the simbols on the 105th key to some combination you like usually Alt Gr + Something
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Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 21:56:47 »
I think for multiple layers, you would need to use AHK. If you're just doing single layer remap (key and shift+key) you can just use keytweak to stick it in the registry.
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Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 11 July 2011, 22:16:34 »
Yeah the swedish layout has quite a few altgr keys, so I guess that AHK would be necessary: @£$€{[]}\~µ|

Offline agor

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 01:10:10 »
You could also just use the US International Layout which has all of these symbols
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Offline bpiphany

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 04:07:25 »
Quote from: agor;378628
You could also just use the US International Layout which has all of these symbols
Show Image

This would be a pain writing in Swedish (and German I would have thought). Character frequencies in Swedish.


There are a lot of places to put the dropped symbols on the alt-gr layer though. The new Swedish layout is completely cluttered with useless symbols on the third and fourth layer (alt-gr and shift+alt-gr).

Offline ch_123

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 06:20:06 »
I've made the change, requires some getting used to, but its doable. Do you make much use of the accented characters on the Swedish layout?

Quote from: The Solutor;378521
Show Image


I still don't get this picture. Half of those enters don't exist, and the evolution is in reverse, both in terms of chronological order and usability.

Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 06:22:43 »
Quote from: ch_123;378685
I've made the change, requires some getting used to, but its doable. Do you make much use of the accented characters on the Swedish layout?
Å Ä Ö are part of the alphabet just like A B C. So yeah, they are used quite a bit.

Offline bpiphany

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 07:22:22 »
Quote from: ch_123;378685
Do you make much use of the accented characters on the Swedish layout?

See my chart above =P

Offline agor

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 07:42:09 »
Writing in German does not seem to be that big a problem for me.
Although it indeed DOES impact speed a little bit.
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Offline jayfinger

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 08:54:03 »
You mentioned getting a keyboard for home and work.  That makes sense.  But do you ever have to use a somebody else' keyboard?  If so, that can make it harder to adapt as you will not be able to focus on a single layout.

Or does somebody else ever have to use yours?  That could make them not like you :-)

Offline kps

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 09:09:19 »

Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 09:38:58 »
Quote from: jayfinger;378731
You mentioned getting a keyboard for home and work.  That makes sense.  But do you ever have to use a somebody else' keyboard?  If so, that can make it harder to adapt as you will not be able to focus on a single layout.

Or does somebody else ever have to use yours?  That could make them not like you :-)

Luckily I don't have to share so that shouldn't be much of a problem, hopefully.

Offline elef

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 12:51:23 »
Quote from: kps;378739
Show Image

LOL

ISO is for alphabets with many accented letters that need to be placed on keys that can be reasonably touch-typed. Like most European alphabets. So the Enter ends up being farther away. Big deal.*
I know some English speakers have trouble grasping the concept of other alphabets, but trust me, they are out there.

* Admittedly, the UK layout doesn't make much sense. But hey, at least it's better than the French.

Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 13:38:44 »
And ANSI is for english and non-latin alphabets, then? Except for Japanese, anyway. But korean, chinese, thai, russian...all use the ANSI physical layout. And I seem to remember that Ascaii has a sort of "half ANSI" keyboard, with an ANSI enter, but the short left shift.

I have nothing against ISO in languages with larger alphabets, but in many cases, it does seem a little weird. For instance, why does the standard ANSI keyboard have []\|{}<> all accesible on the default layer? It seems sort of wasteful, when you think about the fact that a very small portion of the population even needs those keys with the regularity that putting them on the first layer implies. Replacing those with the extra characters in extended alphabets seems like it would be a reasonable thing to do, and just move those to the AltGr level.

Then again, most of those extra characters aren't characters, precisely, but rather accented characters. Devoting a key to them seems a bit excessive, in that some layouts (western spanish, for instance) you simply type the accent you want, followed by the vowel that you want, and you're good to go. If it works for them, why doesn't it work in Europe? You have `, ', : all easily accesible (where : would be umlaut), and it seems like it would be much more flexible.

But I guess not as easy to type. Or then you'd be using the same keyboard as the filthy americans, or the dirty brits, or the evil french, or whoever the flavor of the week to hate on is. It's just like driving. Why do Americans and Europeans drive on the right? Because the British drive on the left. Really. Look it up some day.
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woody

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 13:47:06 »
Quote from: theferenc;378885
But korean, chinese, thai, russian...all use the ANSI physical layout.

Russian > Chinese.

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Offline RiGS

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 13:49:30 »
Quote from: kps;378739
IMG

That's a dumb picture. The key is to move your hand a little bit rather than overextending the pinky.
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Offline hemflit

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 14:06:03 »
Pardon me saying something obvious, but you sound like it's not obvious to you:

There's the physical layout of "where keys exist".
There's the layout of legends printed on the key caps.
There's the logical layout set in software.

- And these are somewhat independent things!

Obviously your computer doesn't care if the physical key you're pressing has an "Å" painted on it or a "[". The keyboard tells it "the 12th key on the 4th row from bottom has been pressed", it looks up what this means, and if you've set the option for an American layout in the OS, it means a left-square-bracket, and if Swedish is set, it means an Å.

It's perfectly okay to connect an American keyboard and tell the computer "use Swedish layout". People do this all the time when they want a specific model, but it doesn't exist in their local language. The key physically labelled "[" will function as Å, and so on for the € symbol and everything else - this shouldn't be a mental problem for you. If it's a problem, you can always buy a set of stickers for like $2 to put over the keys so your eyes see Swedish-style letters under your fingers.

The ANSI-American backslash/pipe key (between Backspace and horizontal Enter) is already treated by pretty much all software in the world as the same physical key as the ISO-Swedish apostrophe/star (or any ISO key cradled by the L-shaped Enter). You don't need any special program to set things up to replace one with the other.

What the ANSI physical keyboard does lack is the one key between Z and Shift, so for typing HTML that's one thing where you'd want to set something up. You just need five minutes of ****ing around with MS Keyboard Layout Maker or whatever it's called (or AHK, or some registry setting, i don't know those) to take the base Swedish layout and add <> functionality to AltGr+comma and AltGr+period. Maybe something for | too.

Your main concern really should be how you prefer your enter shaped, and your left Shift, not which letters are printed on keycaps.

Offline bpiphany

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 14:31:36 »
Quote from: theferenc;378885
Then again, most of those extra characters aren't characters, precisely, but rather accented characters. Devoting a key to them seems a bit excessive, in that some layouts (western spanish, for instance) you simply type the accent you want, followed by the vowel that you want, and you're good to go. If it works for them, why doesn't it work in Europe? You have `, ', : all easily accesible (where : would be umlaut), and it seems like it would be much more flexible.

Again, see my chart above, they are very frequently used and not just accented characters. they are characters. Like the Ñ in Spanish which also has its own key in both Latin and European Spanish layouts. Then we also very sparsely use the accented É in Swedish, but that it pretty much it, and I couldn't really tell how common other accented are in other languages. The French tend to use a lot of accented E's and stuff I think.

Offline hemflit

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:01:51 »
Quote from: elef;378860
ISO is for alphabets with many accented letters that need to be placed on keys that can be reasonably touch-typed. Like most European alphabets. So the Enter ends up being farther away.

 
This isn't really accurate. The right-hand side of the keyboard has an equal total number of keys in ANSI and ISO. The only difference in count is that one single extra key next to the left Shift, and let me tell you, some ISO layouts use it for totally marginal ****, like "not that we really need it, but hey, as long as it happens to be there we might as well stick something on it".

Historically, Americans made keyboards for Americans, and mostly engineers for engineers too. The ordinary American user was happy with the A-Z, and the technical user also used the []{}\| part or whatever was offered. Then European use of the right-edge keys was partly constrained by the established American use - because it was generally all made by the same companies.

Quote from: theferenc;378885
I have nothing against ISO in languages with larger alphabets, but in many cases, it does seem a little weird. For instance, why does the standard ANSI keyboard have []\|{}<> all accesible on the default layer? It seems sort of wasteful, when you think about the fact that a very small portion of the population even needs those keys with the regularity that putting them on the first layer implies. Replacing those with the extra characters in extended alphabets seems like it would be a reasonable thing to do, and just move those to the AltGr level.


Like most other little bits, just a historical accident petrified into a standard. Some doofus at IBM decided to make German and French layouts in a specific way, other manufacturers followed until that became the dominant form in the market, then it was retroactively blessed with the ISO stamp to destroy any leftover room for innovation.

(Don't get me wrong: the French used AZERTY well before IBM did anything about that, and that's not what I'm talking about; the doofus move was defining the Enter shape differently from American, which was not part of any standard by then.)

For some smaller languages (or poorer countries) it wasn't even IBM, it was some dude at Microsoft deciding how to "support" them in Windows 3.1 and what he decided back then is now touted as "the standard" for those languages.

Quote
Then again, most of those extra characters aren't characters, precisely, but rather accented characters. Devoting a key to them seems a bit excessive, in that some layouts (western spanish, for instance) you simply type the accent you want, followed by the vowel that you want, and you're good to go. If it works for them, why doesn't it work in Europe? You have `, ', : all easily accesible (where : would be umlaut), and it seems like it would be much more flexible.


It depends on what you do.

If I'm Swedish, I don't normally need crap like Ẽ Ě Ê Ĕ Ę so I don't care if they're made complicated to type or even impossible. But Å Ä Ü - and only those three - are ordinary everyday bread-and-butter letters for me, equal in importance to A B C, and I don't want to be assed to type them in a complicated way just because the keyboard was designed by some dude from another country who didn't need them. It's perfectly natural - in Sweden - to replace three of the near-useless (to a non-programmer) squiggly keys like [ and ] with those.

Imagine if the computer industry was instead dominated by the Italians, who generally don't need no steenkin J K W X Y. Imagine if American users were expected to type J as alt+I, K as alt+C, and so on. How much would that slow things down? Then if the Italians had already been wasteful enough to dedicate entire keys to []{}\|, English-speakers would reasonably want to remap those to JKWhatever.

Now, if I'm French, I do need something like 16 unamerican letters so obviously I need to find a different solution than just sticking my letters on the squigglies - and the French did find such a solution, for better or worse. But for languages like Swedish, Finnish, German, Slovenian that just need 3-5 extra letters, the most logical solution is exactly this.

ISO 9995 is an attempt at a truly international layout, "flexible" in the way you suggest. It will fail precisely because it's just too much hassle for people who need only a couple of extra letters from their own language, and don't care for the other 300 letters that are all equally complicated with ISO 9995. It's only potentially and partially useful to (a) people who need no special letters except occasionally to spell a foreign name, and (b) people whose languages already demand that they use sequences for their characters, because they have too many.

Quote
But I guess not as easy to type. Or then you'd be using the same keyboard as the filthy americans, or the dirty brits, or the evil french, or whoever the flavor of the week to hate on is.


I think this national idiocy you're talking about played into the silly decisions about where to place characters like + * ? ; and so on. Sadly. I don't think it played into the different-Enters philosophy, or a priori into the call to generally redefine []{}|\ as something else.

Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:05:53 »
So according to your chart, there are 3 extra characters, all of which could easily be placed on the ANSI physical layout by simply shifting a few characters that are only useful for programmers and IT folks on the AltGr layer.

Also, to be precise, they are exactly accented characters, as is Ñ in spanish. They are simply common enough in usage that they were added to the character set to simplify typing and writing. If they were truly characters in their own right, they would have different glyphs, rather than additions to existing glyphs. But that's neither here nor there, as in practice they are *treated* as characters.
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Offline hemflit

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:13:09 »
Quote from: ripster;378923
I wish I knew the history of the BigAss key and why Taiwan uses it so much.  As mentioned I don't think it is used that much in China.

Not that I know anything you don't, but I'm sure it's just people copying other people. At some moment someone must've made popular keyboards that way there, and then more and more people expected them to be exactly that way.

Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:18:05 »
After thinking about things a bit more I have decided to get a Noppoo Choc Mini with red switches, hopefully I should have it in my hands by next week. I figure that even if I end up hating it I can sell it quite easily and get an ISO Filco or similar later.

My issue with the ANSI layout is not what is printed on the keys but rather that keys are gone. I came to the conclusion that it probably wont be too big of a hassle to rebind something like * and ' or <>| to the key above enter or the key to the left of backspace (` and ´ on the Swedish layout, cant remember if I have ever used that key in the last decade). I'll set the keyboard to Swedish and pimp it with blank keys. What really pushed me towards ANSI was not that I thought that it was necessarily better than ISO, just that learning it will give me access to a wide variety of keyboards that will never be available in ISO.

I'd also like to point out, just like hemflit is say, that having to use alt or altgr to type Å Ä and Ö is not feasible. These are keys that are regular letters in our alphabet. A sounds nothing like Ä or Å, O sounds nothing like Ö. It would be a bit like having to do altgr L to type A for an american.

Offline Wihl

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:25:35 »
Quote from: theferenc;378952
Also, to be precise, they are exactly accented characters, as is Ñ in spanish. They are simply common enough in usage that they were added to the character set to simplify typing and writing. If they were truly characters in their own right, they would have different glyphs, rather than additions to existing glyphs. But that's neither here nor there, as in practice they are *treated* as characters.
Bit like saying that n isn't a real letter because its just an m with one less stroke. Listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-4VdZIN8ag
Our alphabet has 29 letters, Å Ä Ö arent just "additions" that only differ slightly from A A O.

Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:25:43 »
Oh, I wasn't suggesting use AltGr for those keys. I was suggesting using AltGr for []{}\|`~<>, and replacing the keys with the characters you do need in your language. You know, the more developer oriented characters, that have no real purpose in any actual written language, at least not directly.

Also, I'm sure they don't sound the same. They are modified by the diacritic mark. But they are still the same glyph, which was my argument. Several linguist friends agree with me that they are not, strictly speaking, letters, but are rather "historically letters", due to the needs of letter press (adding the accent was considered infeasible, so each accented character has it's own block in a letter press system. This later expanded to typewriters, for the same reason, and logically into computer keyboards).

Just like certain fruits are "culinary vegetables". They are in some cases even legally vegetables. But that doesn't change the fact that they are actually fruits, in a technical sense.
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Offline hemflit

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:28:20 »
Quote from: theferenc;378952
Also, to be precise, they are exactly accented characters, as is Ñ in spanish. If they were truly characters in their own right, they would have different glyphs, rather than additions to existing glyphs.

Oh, you're of course right about these particular character being genuinely accented variations on common letters. I think his objection was more to the tone of "oh, they're merely accented characters, so it's fine if typing them is more roundabout than real letters." Whether you actually meant exactly that or not, that's how it sounded to me.

Besides, your idea of "truly characters in their own right" still has more cultural bias than you might think. E.g. would you call ð, đ and þ independent characters? Throughout most of its history, W was not thought of as an independent letter. Many people still think of J and U as variations on I and V, just like Ñ is seen (by everyone) as a variation on N. Lots of Dutch folks feel like Y is just a funny foreign way to spell IJ, and so on.

Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:34:31 »
Oh, I apologize if it seemed that way. I wasn't trying to say they aren't important, or that they shouldn't be easy to type. Anything that's important in everyday language should be easy to type.

I was just saying that a lot of characters today that we think of as full fledged characters were, historically, not. With the rise of the printing press, need dictated that they be treated as such by the font foundries. And since typewriters had fixed fonts as well, they had to have their own keys there.

Of course they are letters. Now. It's all just the evolution of language, and how we represent and enter into a digital space.

That's all I was trying to say.

Some national layouts though do have that weird multi-key input method for accented characters, though, even if they are used extensively. Unfortunately not extensively enough to have been granted character status.
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Offline hemflit

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:40:50 »
Quote from: Wihl;378968
My issue with the ANSI layout is not what is printed on the keys but rather that keys are gone. I came to the conclusion that it probably wont be too big of a hassle to rebind something like * and ' or <>| to the key above enter


(Unlike the other remapping you mentioned) you don't need to do this. :)

The ANSI key between Enter and Backspace is functionally identical to the ISO key cradled in Enter's corner. All keyboard drivers ever treat them as the same key. Here, I'm switching to Swedish right now (on Ubuntu) with an ANSI physical keybaord and I'm hitting that key: ''''' ****** ´´´´´´. The third one is with Alt.

Quote
What really pushed me towards ANSI was not that I thought that it was necessarily better than ISO, just that learning it will give me access to a wide variety of keyboards that will never be available in ISO.

 
I salute this line of thinking :)

The learning in this case though will consist of getting used to hitting just three keys differently. No pains of the "is the damn ampersand on the 6 or 7 now" sort.

Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:42:48 »
It's on the 7, of course.
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Offline Wihl

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« Reply #33 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 15:52:52 »
Quote from: hemflit;378981
(Unlike the other remapping you mentioned) you don't need to do this. :)

The ANSI key between Enter and Backspace is functionally identical to the ISO key cradled in Enter's corner. All keyboard drivers ever treat them as the same key. Here, I'm switching to Swedish right now (on Ubuntu) with an ANSI physical keybaord and I'm hitting that key: ''''' ****** ´´´´´´. The third one is with Alt.


 
I salute this line of thinking :)

The learning in this case though will consist of getting used to hitting just three keys differently. No pains of the "is the damn ampersand on the 6 or 7 now" sort.

Yeah I think that I'll get the hang of it pretty quick after I actually start using it. If I could get used to the HORRID keyboard I had to use at work for a week when my regular keyboard broke I can get used to anything. The keyboard was some disgusting rubber dome keyboard that was so tall that I had to lift my hands off the desk to type on it. I figure it must have had some wrist rest attached to it in the past but my god, my wrist pain after that week was pretty immense.

Offline highspeed

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 16:06:06 »
Im swe and use us layout, no problem at all. Prefer it over swe layouts becuase large left shift is easier to use in games then small one. Have swe layout in windows then just binded <>| to alt gr combos with ms layout creator.

Offline hemflit

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« Reply #35 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 16:08:41 »
Theferenc, sorry if I came across as argumentative. :)

At one point you did suggest "Devoting a key to them seems a bit excessive, in that some layouts you simply type the accent you want, followed by the vowel that you want, and you're good to go. If it works for them, why doesn't it work in Europe?" and I thought that was impractical. But what you suggested afterwards was perfectly reasonable.

As to what makes a character or letter, I guess we see it differently. For you it seems to be a major turning point when a combined character begins to be cast as a single typesetting block. In my mind, it's irrelevant to the status of "letter" what procedure is used to print it or type it; it's a letter sort of when it looks non-identical and has a different meaning. More or less, when it stops being interchangeable with the original form, though that's not a perfect criterion either. I get that it also differs with cultures: some people probably use Ê or something a lot and just think of it as a marked E, and others think of it as a completely separate letter. But of course, this is something that reasonable people can disagree on.

Anecdote: it's been common in Germany to cast CH and CK as single blocks, because generally German didn't need a C outside them. The joined blackletter forms of SS and SZ gave us the ß. A similar joined block for SS was even fashionable in England for a while. CH and CK still weren't felt as letters in German (like SS in English) but ß today definitely feels like a letter of its own.

As to national layouts that do use dead-key combos for their own letters, I think those are generally the ones that just have too many national characters to usefully fit on independent keys, so they need a way around it. Like French.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 16:37:18 »
Quote from: ch_123;378685
I still don't get this picture. Half of those enters don't exist, and the evolution is in reverse, both in terms of chronological order and usability.

You must admit, you are Mr Data from Star Trek  TNG.
I hope you'll find soon your emotional chip, whit the humor dedicated subroutines fully working.:becky:
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #37 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 16:40:18 »
@hemflit


Almost perfect analysis

Quote
Imagine if the computer industry was instead dominated by the Italians

 Not too imagination needed, Olivetti missed the lead of the whole IT world just because bashed both by the American government (to protect IBM) and by the Italian one (because Mr Olivetti was considered a "communist") our masochism in those matters is well known.

Quote
who generally don't need no steenkin J K W X Y

Indeed ue generalli don't need them :happy:

To be pedantic makes more sense an accent in Italian (and in a lot of other languages) than, say, the differentiation between Y and I in English, as they are used more or less in random way.

Quote
Don't get me wrong: the French used AZERTY well before IBM did anything about that, and that's not what I'm talking about; the doofus move was defining the Enter shape differently from American, which was not part of any standard by then.

AZERTY as the now defunct QZERTY are  hideous because the shift behavior, I hated it well before the born of PC as a mainstream device
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 July 2011, 17:15:37 by The Solutor »
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Offline theferenc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 16:49:02 »
Hemflit, that was more in a suggestion on how to deal with them on an ANSI layout for a person who needs some of the dev characters, not a general suggestion for everyday typing. But I do see where the confusion came from, and I should have clarified that.

And it is nice to have a discussion with someone who is reasonable about it. I have a lot of friends, are both linguists and letterpress people, some of whom agree with you, some who agree with me, in regards to "what makes a letter a letter". I don't think there can ever be a firm, 100% correct definition, similarly to how there can never be a similar thing for words. What is a word, except a sound that conveys a meaning? Or is it something that is in the OED (for english, anyway)? Or does the gov't have to accept it as a word, as in France?

Fun arguments for grad students, but for real people (what we call people not in academia), if it's on the keyboard, or they see it in a book, it's a letter. Full stop. Which is what I meant when I said for all practical purposes, they are characters, because everyone thinks they are. Consensus on language means it is as the consensus claims, regardless of what the academics think.
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Offline elef

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 17:11:07 »
Quote from: hemflit;378950
This isn't really accurate. The right-hand side of the keyboard has an equal total number of keys in ANSI and ISO. The only difference in count is that one single extra key next to the left Shift


Well, I did write "that can be reasonably touch-typed". You try to touch-type the |\ key in a US-ANSI keyboard at speed without moving your index finger off the J key...
ISO layouts have 2 extra keys that are available for touch-typing, at the cost of a more awkward Enter and a short lshift. A reasonable compromise if you need to accommodate a large alphabet, I would say.

Offline Arcanius

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 17:14:33 »
What are the two keys, may I ask? There is only one key given by an ISO layout, the one beside LShift. The \ key is only moved a bit.
If I were in Europe, I'd map Capslock to the extra key I need. I type on both ANSI and Canadian ISO, and I find the longer shift to be really convenient, and I map my \ key to backspace, my backspace to delete, and Capslock to \.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 17:55:13 »
Quote from: The Solutor;379028
You must admit, you are Mr Data from Star Trek  TNG.
I hope you'll find soon your emotional chip, whit the humor dedicated subroutines fully working.:becky:

 
Keyboards are serious business. That, and posting the same picture over and over again is kinda lame.

Then again, you're the guy who starts arguments with people for saying "capacitive switch", and well, just about everything else. What's the Italian for "The pot called the kettle black?"
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:03:11 by ch_123 »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #42 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:01:56 »
Quote from: theferenc;378885
I have nothing against ISO in languages with larger alphabets, but in many cases, it does seem a little weird. For instance, why does the standard ANSI keyboard have []\|{}<> all accesible on the default layer? It seems sort of wasteful, when you think about the fact that a very small portion of the population even needs those keys with the regularity that putting them on the first layer implies. Replacing those with the extra characters in extended alphabets seems like it would be a reasonable thing to do, and just move those to the AltGr level.


Quite a number of European programmers use US layout keyboards because keys like that are readily accessible... As someone who deals with such things on a daily basis, I'm also quite happy that they are located where they are.

Then again, the characters that are readily available on keyboards often dictate the designs of software. TheUseOfCamelCaseIdentifiersInComputerProgrammingLanguagesSupposedlyWasDueToTheLackOfAnUnderscoreKeyOnTheXeroxAltoComputer
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:04:31 by ch_123 »

Offline eyesnine

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:09:06 »
ISO enter is more accessible when using the navigation keys. Bigass enter has the same advantage.

I use ISO layout, though I'm fine with ANSI. It's really not a huge difference.

UK layout, with the small hard to reach left shift, drives me nuts. That's just a terrible idea to put the left shift out of the way like that.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #44 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:11:52 »
Quote from: ch_123;379090
Keyboards are serious business.

Keyboards are just a bunch of metal and plastic, it's the people who talk about them and their history tat made the argument interesting.

And people sometimes have a sense of humor

Quote
That, and posting the same picture over and over again is kinda lame.

The picture was clearly aimed to the new user, who already seen it, find the image boring, not differently by someone who tells he started with UK layout and then happily switched to ANSI

Quote
Then again, you're the guy who starts arguments with people for saying "capacitive switch".

 At least I'm glad someone (not me) silently updated the topre wiki, technology is a serious business...

Quote
What's the Italian for "The pot called the kettle black?"

Il bue da del cornuto all'asino

But I really can't see how is applicable here.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:16:59 by The Solutor »
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #45 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:13:44 »
Quote from: ch_123;379096
Quite a number of European programmers use US layout keyboards because keys like that are readily accessible...

They are just unaware of the UK layout, which is known just in UK and Ireland
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #46 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:14:16 »
Quote from: The Solutor;379106
Il bue da del cornuto all'asino

But I really can't see how is applicable here.

 
Idioms have a funny habit of dying in translation.

Oh well.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #47 on: Tue, 12 July 2011, 18:17:46 »
Quote from: ch_123;379111
Idioms have a funny habit of dying in translation.
.

This is not the plain translation, this is a phrase with the same meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_calling_the_kettle_black
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Offline hemflit

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« Reply #48 on: Wed, 13 July 2011, 17:10:41 »
Quote from: theferenc;379043
I have a lot of friends, are both linguists and letterpress people, some of whom agree with you, some who agree with me, in regards to "what makes a letter a letter". I don't think there can ever be a firm, 100% correct definition...

Fun arguments for grad students, but for real people (what we call people not in academia), if it's on the keyboard, or they see it in a book, it's a letter. Full stop. Which is what I meant


Thanks for the explanation - and sorry that I misunderstood at first. And yeah :) I have no doubt there's a ton of other people seeing the letter thing same as you do - it's a reasonable way to see it, and in any case it's indeed not a question that can ever have a "100% true" answer.

Quote from: Arcanius;379065
What are the two keys, may I ask? There is only one key given by an ISO layout, the one beside LShift. The \ key is only moved a bit.

 
I think his point is something like "the American backslash is not reachable with the pinkie, and the corresponding ISO key is, so ISO has one more effectively touch-typable key on the right side". To which ISO-haters could rightly reply "but the ANSI Enter is reachable with the pinkie and the ISO one isn't, so nyuh". Personally I've got caveman hands so I can sort of reach them all if I want to.

Offline mbc

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 13 July 2011, 17:18:25 »
Quote from: The Solutor;378521
You must resist to the assimilation  :-)

Show Image

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 20717[/ATTACH]

BTW: dont google "big ass enter"

Offline The Solutor

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 13 July 2011, 17:19:57 »
Quote
BTW: dont google "big ass enter"

:pound::pound:
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Offline hemflit

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 13 July 2011, 17:44:36 »
BTW I learned a funny new thing about layouts yesterday.

You know how Vietnamese has a bunch of vowels? aăâeêoôơuưy ? And then any of those vowels can independently be modified by a Vietnamese tone mark,  àảãáạ. (Yes, I'm typing this with a Vietnamese layout. Try it out.) So to them ă is just a vowel unrelated to a, but ã is a tone-marked version of a, and of course you can tone-mark the ones that are already written with a diacritic, so you get stuff like ằẵỗổ. But of course, everyone knows this :)

What's weird is how they type them. The keys 1234[] are extra vowels. With Shift, they're capital vowels. The keys 56789 are tone marks. But it's not the accents that are dead keys, it's the vowels. Including ordinary aeiouy. So you hit A for example, and because it's a dead key it waits for you to hit an accent for it afterwards - or if you hit anything that's not an accent, it leaves it as an ordinary A and goes on. If you just hit an accent without a vowel before it, it puts in the accent as a full character of its own. But heavens forbid you want to type a Spanish name and put their precious ~ above an N, that won't do, N isn't a dead key.

Don't ask me how they type numbers. Maybe with Alt.

Bizarre, ha? I mean, I get all the key substitutions, it works for them and their alphabet. But why'd they make the vowels dead keys?

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #52 on: Wed, 13 July 2011, 17:52:49 »


This one (Dubeolsik) is also good to write in Italian and French :happy:
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Offline bdpq

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I don't know what I want anymore.. ISO vs ANSI
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 14 July 2011, 01:42:34 »
wow, this thread is re-rry a great fountain of knowledge! I have never expected to learn about evolution here.
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