Leopold 660C at EliteKeyboards

[elitekeyboards]

Admin Note: this topic was split from here. by request from OP

Hi gang,

Thought I'd drop in here since we've received a couple emails about this GB. While we have no obligation to say anything, we do have long connections to this community and I wanted to address some comments people have made as well.

I'll do this first:

TL,DR; We're getting a small shipment of FC660Cs in tomorrow and more in June, so they'll likely go on sale tomorrow or Saturday. The price will be slightly lower than what boost is offering, but you get our support.

The nitty gritty:

Of course you guys are free to do whatever you like, even though EK has exclusive distributorship of Leopold in the US, these GBs are not of any issue to us because they cannot match our price or service. I'm aware that the success of this group buy is probably two-fold; partly because boost has a good reputation here, but also because after EK has seemingly not taken the initiative to bring other recent Leopold products to the US; some people are understandably skeptical if any new Leopold products, like the FC660, will come at all and therefore take advantage of GBs instead of waiting for EK to deliver.

Aside: I want everyone to know that EK has very good reasons for what products we decided to carry. We want to fulfill customer expectations, but not at the cost of ruining our reputation with broken promises which would put the health of our business at risk. This is much easier said than done when it comes to niche products sourced from young companies on the other side of the planet, as we sorely found out with FILCO years ago, and while I wish I could share all the whys and whats, we unfortunately are not at liberty to discuss details of our suppliers' businesses and manufacturing. So I can only ask for your understanding; we do what we do in both our interests.

So, should you go through this GB or wait for EK to put these on sale?

Reasons to GB:
- Our supply this month is very limited; you might get lucky and get one sooner through the GB after EK sells out.
- EK does not ship to your country
- EK does not falsify customs value for foreign shipments
- You want to support boost

Reasons NOT to GB:
- If you're in the US or Canada and you fancy a warranty and support.
- If you're outside of the US or Canada and you fancy a liable seller and support; i.e. replacement parts, etc.
- You want to pay a lower retail price
- You're skeptical if boost can guarantee you get a working product and wonder if he will be liable if it is lost or damaged in transit (keep in mind that insurance for international packages cannot be higher than the customs value).
- These boards are in short supply this month. Unless boost has a direct line to Leopold and has already secured the stock for this groupbuy, then you may be disappointed with how long it takes to get your board...and end up paying more to boot.

Why might you want a warranty or to buy this board from EK?

- This is the first OEM Topre keyboard made in China. I'm under the impression that Topre is working very hard to make sure the factory is working to Topre standards, but the outcome is still unknown. We will not know for months.
- Even if you are in another country, we still offer support in the way of parts and troubleshooting and even the occasional replacement.
- Full liability for lost or damaged products.

I wanted to address this comment directly:

I'm pulling out of the group buy. If the rumors are true about EK carrying them, I would rather give my business to them. Brian's a good egg.

Couldn't care less if "Brian's" trying to supply it.  I TRUST Boost 1000% more than Brian on any day of the week when it comes to delivery of any product(s).

Also about the so-called warranty on these, when was the last time a Realforce or HHKB was ever handed back within 1 year (that's the warranty period, please correct me if I'm wrong here) ?

If you're stupid enough to drive your Landcruiser over it, or use it as a boat paddle or even use it as a flame torch when you dip it in Kerosene, then maybe you can do an RMA (Brian would laugh in your face of course).

I'll correct you since you have no data from which to draw such a conclusion. Topre has a manufacturing goal of only 1 in 10,000 failure rate in the first year, and they are very close to living up to it, but Topre customers have very high standards (and they should for what these boards cost) so boards occasionally come back for fit and finish issues such as misaligned switch springs or cases, inconsistent key weighting, squeaking keys, or broken parts. Likelihood is you won't need the EK warranty, but buying from us, regardless of your location entitles you to parts and support for as long as you have the product.

BTW, someone did RMA a board to us that looked like it was dipped in Kerosene and used as a torch. I didn't laugh at him, but I did ignore him.

[Guillairmo]

beast ^

[Michael]

More

Hi gang,

Thought I'd drop in here since we've received a couple emails about this GB. While we have no obligation to say anything, we do have long connections to this community and I wanted to address some comments people have made as well.

I'll do this first:

TL,DR; We're getting a small shipment of FC660Cs in tomorrow and more in June, so they'll likely go on sale tomorrow or Saturday. The price will be slightly lower than what boost is offering, but you get our support.

The nitty gritty:

Of course you guys are free to do whatever you like, even though EK has exclusive distributorship of Leopold in the US, these GBs are not of any issue to us because they cannot match our price or service. I'm aware that the success of this group buy is probably two-fold; partly because boost has a good reputation here, but also because after EK has seemingly not taken the initiative to bring other recent Leopold products to the US; some people are understandably skeptical if any new Leopold products, like the FC660, will come at all and therefore take advantage of GBs instead of waiting for EK to deliver.

Aside: I want everyone to know that EK has very good reasons for what products we decided to carry. We want to fulfill customer expectations, but not at the cost of ruining our reputation with broken promises which would put the health of our business at risk. This is much easier said than done when it comes to niche products sourced from young companies on the other side of the planet, as we sorely found out with FILCO years ago, and while I wish I could share all the whys and whats, we unfortunately are not at liberty to discuss details of our suppliers' businesses and manufacturing. So I can only ask for your understanding; we do what we do in both our interests.

So, should you go through this GB or wait for EK to put these on sale?

Reasons to GB:
- Our supply this month is very limited; you might get lucky and get one sooner through the GB after EK sells out.
- EK does not ship to your country
- EK does not falsify customs value for foreign shipments
- You want to support boost

Reasons NOT to GB:
- If you're in the US or Canada and you fancy a warranty and support.
- If you're outside of the US or Canada and you fancy a liable seller and support; i.e. replacement parts, etc.
- You want to pay a lower retail price
- You're skeptical if boost can guarantee you get a working product and wonder if he will be liable if it is lost or damaged in transit (keep in mind that insurance for international packages cannot be higher than the customs value).
- These boards are in short supply this month. Unless boost has a direct line to Leopold and has already secured the stock for this groupbuy, then you may be disappointed with how long it takes to get your board...and end up paying more to boot.

Why might you want a warranty or to buy this board from EK?

- This is the first OEM Topre keyboard made in China. I'm under the impression that Topre is working very hard to make sure the factory is working to Topre standards, but the outcome is still unknown. We will not know for months.
- Even if you are in another country, we still offer support in the way of parts and troubleshooting and even the occasional replacement.
- Full liability for lost or damaged products.

I wanted to address this comment directly:

I'm pulling out of the group buy. If the rumors are true about EK carrying them, I would rather give my business to them. Brian's a good egg.

Couldn't care less if "Brian's" trying to supply it.  I TRUST Boost 1000% more than Brian on any day of the week when it comes to delivery of any product(s).

Also about the so-called warranty on these, when was the last time a Realforce or HHKB was ever handed back within 1 year (that's the warranty period, please correct me if I'm wrong here) ?

If you're stupid enough to drive your Landcruiser over it, or use it as a boat paddle or even use it as a flame torch when you dip it in Kerosene, then maybe you can do an RMA (Brian would laugh in your face of course).

I'll correct you since you have no data from which to draw such a conclusion. Topre has a manufacturing goal of only 1 in 10,000 failure rate in the first year, and they are very close to living up to it, but Topre customers have very high standards (and they should for what these boards cost) so boards occasionally come back for fit and finish issues such as misaligned switch springs or cases, inconsistent key weighting, squeaking keys, or broken parts. Likelihood is you won't need the EK warranty, but buying from us, regardless of your location entitles you to parts and support for as long as you have the product.

BTW, someone did RMA a board to us that looked like it was dipped in Kerosene and used as a torch. I didn't laugh at him, but I did ignore him.

[VesperSAINT]

[Glod]

I'm not sure what to think about that response; I've never had an issue ek and I'll buy from him again but buddy your response kind of sort of comes off as an insult to boost, at least from my perspective that is

[Michael]

I'm not sure what to think about that response; I've never had an issue ek and I'll buy from him again but buddy your response kind of sort of comes off as an insult to boost, at least from my perspective that is

Not sure I see an insult in there anywhere, just plain facts. If boost wants to offer coverage for loss or damage, or be responsible for replacing the keyboard in either event, then I guess you could make an argument for that. But if not, Brian brings up several valid points.

[Glod]

I'm not sure what to think about that response; I've never had an issue ek and I'll buy from him again but buddy your response kind of sort of comes off as an insult to boost, at least from my perspective that is

Not sure I see an insult in there anywhere, just plain facts. If boost wants to offer coverage for loss or damage, or be responsible for replacing the keyboard in either event, then I guess you could make an argument for that. But if not, Brian brings up several valid points.

I agree they are valid points, especially about the warranty and the facts about the origin of the keyboard was helpful

I dunno I guess it's just me then, carry on

[qtan5370]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

I am speaking this because we will face it again and again the competition  between exclusive distributorship and international seller won't end soon. It is very important that we have rule a agreements upon how we behavior. Jumping into someone's selling post to say such thing is like I went to your website post my selling information. Just think about what will be your reaction to such thing? I am might also able to sell this board as same as you could, think about that, what happen if I go to your website and starting that I can sell lower price then your selling right now and provide the same support as you can?

I have no business with this group buy, just drop in by accident. But I want to support the community by sharing my view. I am have no what against ek said, but I do against he address the issue under business name in the post. 

[Elrick]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

Qtan has correctly labelled him right here.  As usual Brian likes to take the stage for himself instead of budding out of a GROUP BUY.

If he wants business then advertise it in your OWN SALES section here on Geekhack.

I say it once and I'll say it a THOUSAND times Brian is a complete tosser  .

Good that Qtan needs to set the rules for him here instead of all the fanboys allowing him to get away with this type of behaviour.  In fact for the Fanboys, just go to EK and get your goods, why stop here then?

For the REST of us that want to be here in this GROUP BUY arranged by our ever trustworthy Boost, we're not going anywhere.........so there  .

[Michael]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

Qtan has correctly labelled him right here.  As usual Brian likes to take the stage for himself instead of budding out of a GROUP BUY.

If he wants business then advertise it in your OWN SALES section here on Geekhack.

I say it once and I'll say it a THOUSAND times Brian is a complete tosser  .

Good that Qtan needs to set the rules for him here instead of all the fanboys allowing him the get away with this type of behaviour.  In fact for the Fanboys, just go to EK and get your goods, why stop here then?

For the REST of us that want to be here in this GROUP BUY arranged by our ever trustworthy Boost, we're not going anywhere.........so there  .

I guess ignorance is bliss.

[sordna]

qtan makes some good points... EK could keep it short and only comment to defend themselves on whatever negative was said about them, without the sales pitch on someone else's GB thread.

On the other hand, Boost recently stated the group buy ended today at 10pm EST, and EK posted AFTER the group buy ended. So what EK did wasn't as bad as was made out to be, although still a bit questionable :-/

So this isn't hurting boost in any way, and besides, I think the GB was only to provide a service, not profit. This is proven by the fact he chose to end the GB several days earlier than what was stated in the OP.

So all in all no harm done, I'm sure the GB will do fine, and it's also nice to see this interesting keyboard brought by EK.

My main beef about the whole thing is that this keyboard is lacking 2 important physical keys (for pgup/pgdown) when there is clearly room for them :-)

[qtan5370]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

Qtan has correctly labelled him right here.  As usual Brian likes to take the stage for himself instead of budding out of a GROUP BUY.

If he wants business then advertise it in your OWN SALES section here on Geekhack.

I say it once and I'll say it a THOUSAND times Brian is a complete tosser  .

Good that Qtan needs to set the rules for him here instead of all the fanboys allowing him to get away with this type of behaviour.  In fact for the Fanboys, just go to EK and get your goods, why stop here then?

For the REST of us that want to be here in this GROUP BUY arranged by our ever trustworthy Boost, we're not going anywhere.........so there  .

Rule is very clear set after some issue happened in past. We just has to remind that rules should be followed. It is ok to provide clarify things if it is miss leading or harmful, and all member will be happy to hear that.   

[elitekeyboards]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

I am speaking this because we will face it again and again the competition  between exclusive distributorship and international seller won't end soon. It is very important that we have rule a agreements upon how we behavior. Jumping into someone's selling post to say such thing is like I went to your website post my selling information. Just think about what will be your reaction to such thing? I am might also able to sell this board as same as you could, think about that, what happen if I go to your website and starting that I can sell lower price then your selling right now and provide the same support as you can?

I have no business with this group buy, just drop in by accident. But I want to support the community by sharing my view. I am have no what against ek said, but I do against he address the issue under business name in the post. 

Hi qtan,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your logic, my loyalties and respect should be to someone who runs a GB, but not to people who are participating? So, if people are getting a sour deal I should just stay silent??

I REALLY am not here to advertise. I posted here as a courtesy to customers. I don't need 30 sales bad enough to piss on someone's supposed goodwill to the community, nor do I have some overwhelming desire to educate people about the realities of buyer's remorse. However, as far as I'm aware a GB is not a business and a person who runs a GB often takes a loss, but does so because they want to contribute to the community and/or seek respect. GB runners are NOT Mom'n'Pop businesses on the corner. They do not take ultimate liability, they do not guarantee support, they don't pay taxes, and worst of all: they're anonymous.

How would boost be contributing to the community if he charged people more for a product than they could get elsewhere while offering less service? If he is truly committed to spreading some kind of common good or knowledge about keyboards around here, then he would encourage people to get the best deal they can in a way that benefits the community the best they can; which in this case would be supporting your local distributors. Otherwise, boost is just another competitor in a capitalist market.

[elitekeyboards]

qtan makes some good points... EK could keep it short and only comment to defend themselves on whatever negative was said about them, without the sales pitch on someone else's GB thread.

On the other hand, Boost recently stated the group buy ended today at 10pm EST, and EK posted AFTER the group buy ended. So what EK did wasn't as bad as was made out to be, although still a bit questionable :-/

So this isn't hurting boost in any way, and besides, I think the GB was only to provide a service, not profit. This is proven by the fact he chose to end the GB several days earlier than what was stated in the OP.

So all in all no harm done, I'm sure the GB will do fine, and it's also nice to see this interesting keyboard brought by EK.

My main beef about the whole thing is that this keyboard is lacking 2 important physical keys (for pgup/pgdown) when there is clearly room for them :-)

I'm only here to offer what I feel is beneficial information to members of this community. As an exclusive distributor, it is fully in my power to find out who would ship 30+ FC660Cs to this market, and to stop them from doing so. It just takes one phone call, but I'm not picking up the phone to do this.

I would not have posted here if upsetting the GB was my intention; I would just crash the party without anyone being the wiser.

You bring up very valid and honest points. However, it's pretty obvious that this was done with a motive to bring potential sales to your own website. It's a slap in the face for the GB and Boost if you asked me. The only relevant thing needed to be said was when they were going to be available, and price. Then GH members or your potential customers can decide themselves which route to go. I'm not saying this because I'm picking sides, but rather saying there could have been a much better way to advertise or be informative.

The demand for this board far exceeds the supply at the moment, so making potential sales here was and is not my intention. (See my above comment to sordna.) People asked for information, and I figured this thread was the fastest way to reach the most people. I've only commented on the pros and cons of the GB because I honestly feel that any GB that thwarts international distribution contracts does not benefit the community as a whole.

Also, I question why you're telling me that I should have just dropped the minimum information relevant to availability and been on my way. As, you're seemingly boiling the whole purpose of GH down to a bunch of fledgling businessmen falling over each other to run group buys and sprinkling the forum with advertisements for their wares. I don't think anyone here wants that.

[qtan5370]

It is not my logic to say anything, it is simply a clear rule has been placed here.

Threadcrapping: If you aren't interested in joining a group buy, STAY OUT OF THE GROUP BUY THREAD. This goes doubly so if you disagree with the way the buy is being run, the product being purchased, or have any other complaint not relevant to buying into the group buy. Repeat offenders put themselves in danger of moderator action.

First, I am suggesting you violated this rule, that's my logic.

Second, true speak as itself, customer make they own choice. Unless you believed that seller are giving misleading information or engaged in wrong doing, it  is not your position to speak against the seller in this manner. What you consider is sour deal is your opinion. YOU are speaking not as a common member but as a seller who engaged direct competition.  If you just a common member, you are free to compare or make commons, but please remember your position. If you believe you are acting in the interested to give them better deal that gave you the right ground to post it in this way, then I can claim in the same ground then open a ID start posting similar thing around your forum to saying somewhere has a thing that I consider it is a better deal? What do you feel about this? Try to go into Walmark and pop up a post said Target has a better deal next door, see what happen even if your speaking the true.

Finally, you making judgement over your knowledge, how would you know that group buyer runner don't pay tax? You are now attacking all group buyer runner by making this statement : "GB runners are NOT Mom'n'Pop businesses on the corner. They do not take ultimate liability, they do not guarantee support, they don't pay taxes, and worst of all: they're anonymous." If I did not misreading your word, that I have to ask you, to recall this unreasonable statement. I run group buy few times in the past and running the poker 2 group buy too, so I can say your statement is false. I provide standard customer support, I pay TAX, I take liability as all term are stated as a common store, I am not anonymous.  I know many others group buyer runner does so.

Again, it is not the right place to discussed what your believes is right or wrong. You are free to call for support in the community in a appropriated place. I did say you posted wrong thing, but I do have to speak out that you posted on the wrong place.

And please do not branch marked GB runner, you don't have the ground to do so.

 

[elitekeyboards]

It is not my logic to say anything, it is simply a clear rule has been placed here.

Threadcrapping: If you aren't interested in joining a group buy, STAY OUT OF THE GROUP BUY THREAD. This goes doubly so if you disagree with the way the buy is being run, the product being purchased, or have any other complaint not relevant to buying into the group buy. Repeat offenders put themselves in danger of moderator action.

First, I am suggesting you violated this rule, that's my logic.

Second, true speak as itself, customer make they own choice. Unless you believed that seller are giving misleading information or engaged in wrong doing, it  is not your position to speak against the seller in this manner. What you consider is sour deal is your opinion. YOU are speaking not as a common member but as a seller who engaged direct competition.  If you just a common member, you are free to compare or make commons, but please remember your position. If you believe you are acting in the interested to give them better deal that gave you the right ground to post it in this way, then I can claim in the same ground then open a ID start posting similar thing around your forum to saying somewhere has a thing that I consider it is a better deal? What do you feel about this? Try to go into Walmark and pop up a post said Target has a better deal next door, see what happen even if your speaking the true.

Finally, you making judgement over your knowledge, how would you know that group buyer runner don't pay tax? You are now attacking all group buyer runner by making this statement : "GB runners are NOT Mom'n'Pop businesses on the corner. They do not take ultimate liability, they do not guarantee support, they don't pay taxes, and worst of all: they're anonymous." If I did not misreading your word, that I have to ask you, to recall this unreasonable statement. I run group buy few times in the past and running the poker 2 group buy too, so I can say your statement is false. I provide standard customer support, I pay TAX, I take liability as all term are stated as a common store, I am not anonymous.  I know many others group buyer runner does so.

Again, it is not the right place to discussed what your believes is right or wrong. You are free to call for support in the community in a appropriated place. I did say you posted wrong thing, but I do have to speak out that you posted on the wrong place.

And please do not branch marked GB runner, you don't have the ground to do so.

Hi Qtan,

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

So you're mistaken in saying that I am engaged in direct competition; when it comes to products that EK has exclusive distribution for in North America, there isn't any. I realize this probably sounds tyrannical, but this is how business works, it's pretty cut and dry.

[kelske]

Jesus this escalated quickly..

I'm disappointed in the overall direction that this conversation has gone in.. I can't really offer any additional breadth to the conversation, so I'll just let it play out.. I hope this is resolved promptly to the benefit of both the GH community and EK as a business.

[qtan5370]

Hi Qtan,

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

So you're mistaken in saying that I am engaged in direct competition; when it comes to products that EK has exclusive distribution for in North America, there isn't any. I realize this probably sounds tyrannical, but this is how business works, it's pretty cut and dry.
[/quote]


 I don't have the right to decide if you go beyond the rule. But I am just questioning. We all know how business works, members make their choice. I can't ask other things, but I am right to ask you to stop branch marking people, it is a bad move.

[elitekeyboards]

I don't have the right to decide if you go beyond the rule. But I am just questioning. We all know how business works, members make their choice. I can't ask other things, but I am right to ask you to stop branch marking people, it is a bad move.

It's good you're questioning things; I don't have any problem with that. Things definitely could work smoother in such a situation as this. Perhaps this is an opportunity for the GH team to make an addition to the rules for group buys:

E.G. In the case that a member wants to run a group buy for a new or existing product that is, or may soon be, distributed by a known manufacturer-authorized distributor within the member's country/region, then the member should get authorization from the distributor before starting the group buy.

[Elrick]

It's good you're questioning things; I don't have any problem with that. Things definitely could work smoother in such a situation as this. Perhaps this is an opportunity for the GH team to make an addition to the rules for group buys:

E.G. In the case that a member wants to run a group buy for a new or existing product that is, or may soon be, distributed by a known manufacturer-authorized distributor within the member's country/region, then the member should get authorization from the distributor before starting the group buy.

I really LOVE this.  You are the only person here touting his own business aka Elitekeyboards who now want the Admin's here to stop anyone from organizing a Group Buy to purchase anything.  What's all this really about besides stopping our freedoms which a whole lot of people have given their lives for over the years.  I don't think having some greedy little man to start dictating his ONLY rule(s) upon everyone here on this forum.

I didn't know that Geekhack has suddenly become your private agency?

As I understand it, Geekhack is INDEPENDENT meaning it is NOT a store nor a registered BUSINESS linked to you Brian.  Instead it's a public forum.  With public forums we the people who organize ourselves and others to help swap, purchase or make anything we want and distribute items to whomever wants it.

AGAIN I keep stating the bleeding obvious, who the HELL are you to lay down the laws for this FORUM?

Go elsewhere and push your business because it's not wanted here.  Here is where the people want to discuss and organize a Group Buy that has NOTHING to do with YOU.

Wake up and smell the coffee, because it's not yours to drink  .

[qtan5370]

I don't have the right to decide if you go beyond the rule. But I am just questioning. We all know how business works, members make their choice. I can't ask other things, but I am right to ask you to stop branch marking people, it is a bad move.

It's good you're questioning things; I don't have any problem with that. Things definitely could work smoother in such a situation as this. Perhaps this is an opportunity for the GH team to make an addition to the rules for group buys:

E.G. In the case that a member wants to run a group buy for a new or existing product that is, or may soon be, distributed by a known manufacturer-authorized distributor within the member's country/region, then the member should get authorization from the distributor before starting the group buy.

You can might the suggestion. We hold a great disagreement upon this issue. Make the rule clearly is very important, it is not fair for someone start a group buy then latter things like this happen and people start put out from it. Every buying decision is made base on the information at the spot vary for each customer, and a reasonable buyer uphold the deal they made and search information for better deal.

It is up to Geekhack to decide what they make the rule. Until anything new come up, we enjoy our group buy.

[Elrick]

It is up to Geekhack to decide what they make the rule. Until anything new come up, we enjoy our group buy.

HERE HERE....... the most enlightening comment thus far.

[zoolzoo]

It is not my logic to say anything, it is simply a clear rule has been placed here.

Threadcrapping: If you aren't interested in joining a group buy, STAY OUT OF THE GROUP BUY THREAD. This goes doubly so if you disagree with the way the buy is being run, the product being purchased, or have any other complaint not relevant to buying into the group buy. Repeat offenders put themselves in danger of moderator action.

First, I am suggesting you violated this rule, that's my logic.

Second, true speak as itself, customer make they own choice. Unless you believed that seller are giving misleading information or engaged in wrong doing, it  is not your position to speak against the seller in this manner. What you consider is sour deal is your opinion. YOU are speaking not as a common member but as a seller who engaged direct competition.  If you just a common member, you are free to compare or make commons, but please remember your position. If you believe you are acting in the interested to give them better deal that gave you the right ground to post it in this way, then I can claim in the same ground then open a ID start posting similar thing around your forum to saying somewhere has a thing that I consider it is a better deal? What do you feel about this? Try to go into Walmark and pop up a post said Target has a better deal next door, see what happen even if your speaking the true.

Finally, you making judgement over your knowledge, how would you know that group buyer runner don't pay tax? You are now attacking all group buyer runner by making this statement : "GB runners are NOT Mom'n'Pop businesses on the corner. They do not take ultimate liability, they do not guarantee support, they don't pay taxes, and worst of all: they're anonymous." If I did not misreading your word, that I have to ask you, to recall this unreasonable statement. I run group buy few times in the past and running the poker 2 group buy too, so I can say your statement is false. I provide standard customer support, I pay TAX, I take liability as all term are stated as a common store, I am not anonymous.  I know many others group buyer runner does so.

Again, it is not the right place to discussed what your believes is right or wrong. You are free to call for support in the community in a appropriated place. I did say you posted wrong thing, but I do have to speak out that you posted on the wrong place.

And please do not branch marked GB runner, you don't have the ground to do so.

Hi Qtan,

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

So you're mistaken in saying that I am engaged in direct competition; when it comes to products that EK has exclusive distribution for in North America, there isn't any. I realize this probably sounds tyrannical, but this is how business works, it's pretty cut and dry.

You keep stating that you can stop this GB. Do you really have the power to control this type commerce occurring via private channels? How do you have any control over a private party in Korea (or wherever) buying some boards off the shelf and sending them to some "friends" in the US? In contrast, I can see where you could take action If I sourced a bunch of Leo's and opened an online store front. I'm more curious than anything here...seems like sort of a stretch.

[qtan5370]

It's good you're questioning things; I don't have any problem with that. Things definitely could work smoother in such a situation as this. Perhaps this is an opportunity for the GH team to make an addition to the rules for group buys:

E.G. In the case that a member wants to run a group buy for a new or existing product that is, or may soon be, distributed by a known manufacturer-authorized distributor within the member's country/region, then the member should get authorization from the distributor before starting the group buy.

I really LOVE this.  You are the only person here touting his own business aka Elitekeyboards who now want the Admin's here to stop anyone from organizing a Group Buy to purchase anything.  What's all this really about besides stopping our freedoms which a whole lot of people have given their lives for over the years.  I don't think having some greedy little man to start dictating his ONLY rule(s) upon everyone here on this forum.

I didn't know that Geekhack has suddenly become your agency?

As I understand it, Geekhack is INDEPENDENT meaning it is NOT a store nor a registered BUSINESS linked to you Brian.  Instead it's a public forum.  With public forums we the people who organize ourselves and others to help swap, purchase or make anything we want and distribute items to whomever wants it.

AGAIN I keep stating the bleeding obvious, who the HELL are you to lay down the laws for this FORUM?

Go elsewhere and push your business because it's not wanted here.  Here is were the people want to discuss and organize a Group Buy that has NOTHING to do with YOU.

Wake up and smell the coffee, because it's not yours to drink  .

You said what I really want to say, if geekhack open a debate on it, I will provide everything to support your point. It is not the first time, in my long business life, challenge business that think they have the right to control the market or have exclusive right to sell something. I understand the arguments of both sides, but my ground is clear. Saying such thing really make me upset about how eiltekeyboard conduct their business. We like business owner come down with reason and respect to talk with problems. Threaten us is not a good idea.

[qtan5370]

It is not my logic to say anything, it is simply a clear rule has been placed here.

Threadcrapping: If you aren't interested in joining a group buy, STAY OUT OF THE GROUP BUY THREAD. This goes doubly so if you disagree with the way the buy is being run, the product being purchased, or have any other complaint not relevant to buying into the group buy. Repeat offenders put themselves in danger of moderator action.

First, I am suggesting you violated this rule, that's my logic.

Second, true speak as itself, customer make they own choice. Unless you believed that seller are giving misleading information or engaged in wrong doing, it  is not your position to speak against the seller in this manner. What you consider is sour deal is your opinion. YOU are speaking not as a common member but as a seller who engaged direct competition.  If you just a common member, you are free to compare or make commons, but please remember your position. If you believe you are acting in the interested to give them better deal that gave you the right ground to post it in this way, then I can claim in the same ground then open a ID start posting similar thing around your forum to saying somewhere has a thing that I consider it is a better deal? What do you feel about this? Try to go into Walmark and pop up a post said Target has a better deal next door, see what happen even if your speaking the true.

Finally, you making judgement over your knowledge, how would you know that group buyer runner don't pay tax? You are now attacking all group buyer runner by making this statement : "GB runners are NOT Mom'n'Pop businesses on the corner. They do not take ultimate liability, they do not guarantee support, they don't pay taxes, and worst of all: they're anonymous." If I did not misreading your word, that I have to ask you, to recall this unreasonable statement. I run group buy few times in the past and running the poker 2 group buy too, so I can say your statement is false. I provide standard customer support, I pay TAX, I take liability as all term are stated as a common store, I am not anonymous.  I know many others group buyer runner does so.

Again, it is not the right place to discussed what your believes is right or wrong. You are free to call for support in the community in a appropriated place. I did say you posted wrong thing, but I do have to speak out that you posted on the wrong place.

And please do not branch marked GB runner, you don't have the ground to do so.

Hi Qtan,

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

So you're mistaken in saying that I am engaged in direct competition; when it comes to products that EK has exclusive distribution for in North America, there isn't any. I realize this probably sounds tyrannical, but this is how business works, it's pretty cut and dry.

You keep stating that you can stop this GB. Do you really have the power to control this type commerce occurring via private channels? How do you have any control over a private party in Korea (or wherever) buying some boards off the shelf and sending them to some "friends" in the US? In contrast, I can see where you could take action If I sourced a bunch of Leo's and opened an online store front. I'm more curious than anything here.

I bet he won't....

[i3oilermaker]

More

Hi gang,

Thought I'd drop in here since we've received a couple emails about this GB. While we have no obligation to say anything, we do have long connections to this community and I wanted to address some comments people have made as well.

I'll do this first:

TL,DR; We're getting a small shipment of FC660Cs in tomorrow and more in June, so they'll likely go on sale tomorrow or Saturday. The price will be slightly lower than what boost is offering, but you get our support.

The nitty gritty:

Of course you guys are free to do whatever you like, even though EK has exclusive distributorship of Leopold in the US, these GBs are not of any issue to us because they cannot match our price or service. I'm aware that the success of this group buy is probably two-fold; partly because boost has a good reputation here, but also because after EK has seemingly not taken the initiative to bring other recent Leopold products to the US; some people are understandably skeptical if any new Leopold products, like the FC660, will come at all and therefore take advantage of GBs instead of waiting for EK to deliver.

Aside: I want everyone to know that EK has very good reasons for what products we decided to carry. We want to fulfill customer expectations, but not at the cost of ruining our reputation with broken promises which would put the health of our business at risk. This is much easier said than done when it comes to niche products sourced from young companies on the other side of the planet, as we sorely found out with FILCO years ago, and while I wish I could share all the whys and whats, we unfortunately are not at liberty to discuss details of our suppliers' businesses and manufacturing. So I can only ask for your understanding; we do what we do in both our interests.

So, should you go through this GB or wait for EK to put these on sale?

Reasons to GB:
- Our supply this month is very limited; you might get lucky and get one sooner through the GB after EK sells out.
- EK does not ship to your country
- EK does not falsify customs value for foreign shipments
- You want to support boost

Reasons NOT to GB:
- If you're in the US or Canada and you fancy a warranty and support.
- If you're outside of the US or Canada and you fancy a liable seller and support; i.e. replacement parts, etc.
- You want to pay a lower retail price
- You're skeptical if boost can guarantee you get a working product and wonder if he will be liable if it is lost or damaged in transit (keep in mind that insurance for international packages cannot be higher than the customs value).
- These boards are in short supply this month. Unless boost has a direct line to Leopold and has already secured the stock for this groupbuy, then you may be disappointed with how long it takes to get your board...and end up paying more to boot.

Why might you want a warranty or to buy this board from EK?

- This is the first OEM Topre keyboard made in China. I'm under the impression that Topre is working very hard to make sure the factory is working to Topre standards, but the outcome is still unknown. We will not know for months.
- Even if you are in another country, we still offer support in the way of parts and troubleshooting and even the occasional replacement.
- Full liability for lost or damaged products.

I wanted to address this comment directly:

I'm pulling out of the group buy. If the rumors are true about EK carrying them, I would rather give my business to them. Brian's a good egg.

Couldn't care less if "Brian's" trying to supply it.  I TRUST Boost 1000% more than Brian on any day of the week when it comes to delivery of any product(s).

Also about the so-called warranty on these, when was the last time a Realforce or HHKB was ever handed back within 1 year (that's the warranty period, please correct me if I'm wrong here) ?

If you're stupid enough to drive your Landcruiser over it, or use it as a boat paddle or even use it as a flame torch when you dip it in Kerosene, then maybe you can do an RMA (Brian would laugh in your face of course).

I'll correct you since you have no data from which to draw such a conclusion. Topre has a manufacturing goal of only 1 in 10,000 failure rate in the first year, and they are very close to living up to it, but Topre customers have very high standards (and they should for what these boards cost) so boards occasionally come back for fit and finish issues such as misaligned switch springs or cases, inconsistent key weighting, squeaking keys, or broken parts. Likelihood is you won't need the EK warranty, but buying from us, regardless of your location entitles you to parts and support for as long as you have the product.

BTW, someone did RMA a board to us that looked like it was dipped in Kerosene and used as a torch. I didn't laugh at him, but I did ignore him.

You bring up very valid and honest points. However, it's pretty obvious that this was done with a motive to bring potential sales to your own website. It's a slap in the face for the GB and Boost if you asked me. The only relevant thing needed to be said was when they were going to be available, and price. Then GH members or your potential customers can decide themselves which route to go. I'm not saying this because I'm picking sides, but rather saying there could have been a much better way to advertise or be informative.

This ^

[vivalarevolución]

Wow this got interesting overnight.  I can say with complete confidence I will never buy anything from Elite Keyboards as a result of this exchange.  I think some professional courtesies of business were violated here. 

If I were Topre, I would reconsider their exclusive distributor of their keyboards in North America.  It's not helping their business.

Yea, and all I wanted was one keyboard.

[Michael]

I think if you have the admins bring all of this conversation into off-topic, you can freely discuss it without interrupting the group buy members.


Just a thought....

[mkawa]

Hi EK,

A group buy is a group buy is a group buy. If you feel it is a breach of contract on someone else's part, the proper action as you very well know is to notify them that they are in breach of contract and notify them of either imminent legal action or invocation of the penalties stated in the contract, if any.

In the mean time, you are crapping all over this thread despite multiple warnings and strong community backlash.

If you would like to discuss your supplier contracts, please do so either in off-topic or in your own vendor forum (a single PM to me can re-establish it).

If you would like to whine about nothing in particular, please do so in off-topic.

I do not want to see you post again in this thread. If you do, I will split the thread myself into off-topic.

Naturally, Boost will not be involved in any moderation or administrative decisions involving this thread or any threads related to it.

-kawa

[Shadovved]

Hi EK,

A group buy is a group buy is a group buy. If you feel it is a breach of contract on someone else's part, the proper action as you very well know is to notify them that they are in breach of contract and notify them of either imminent legal action or invocation of the penalties stated in the contract, if any.

In the mean time, you are crapping all over this thread despite multiple warnings and strong community backlash.

If you would like to discuss your supplier contracts, please do so either in off-topic or in your own vendor forum (a single PM to me can re-establish it).

If you would like to whine about nothing in particular, please do so in off-topic.

I do not want to see you post again in this thread. If you do, I will split the thread myself into off-topic.

Naturally, Boost will not be involved in any moderation or administrative decisions involving this thread or any threads related to it.

-kawa

Nicely put, sir.

Clear, concise and convincing

[whiteduck]

Hi EK,

A group buy is a group buy is a group buy. If you feel it is a breach of contract on someone else's part, the proper action as you very well know is to notify them that they are in breach of contract and notify them of either imminent legal action or invocation of the penalties stated in the contract, if any.

In the mean time, you are crapping all over this thread despite multiple warnings and strong community backlash.

If you would like to discuss your supplier contracts, please do so either in off-topic or in your own vendor forum (a single PM to me can re-establish it).

If you would like to whine about nothing in particular, please do so in off-topic.

I do not want to see you post again in this thread. If you do, I will split the thread myself into off-topic.

Naturally, Boost will not be involved in any moderation or administrative decisions involving this thread or any threads related to it.

-kawa

/hammer

well played <3 

I have had nothing but positive experiences with www.elitekeyboards.com and Brian in all my dealings with him, but after this thread I'm not sure I'd buy from him again.... =/

[esoomenona]

I have had nothing but positive experiences with www.elitekeyboards.com and Brian in all my dealings with him, but after this thread I'm not sure I'd buy from him again.... =/

That is, until there is another CC sale, right?

[whiteduck]

I have had nothing but positive experiences with www.elitekeyboards.com and Brian in all my dealings with him, but after this thread I'm not sure I'd buy from him again.... =/

That is, until there is another CC sale, right?

obviously <3

[Shadovved]

I have had nothing but positive experiences with www.elitekeyboards.com and Brian in all my dealings with him, but after this thread I'm not sure I'd buy from him again.... =/

That is, until there is another CC sale, right?

Maybe CC will change to techkeys! )

[Macsmasher]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

Qtan has correctly labelled him right here.  As usual Brian likes to take the stage for himself instead of budding out of a GROUP BUY.

If he wants business then advertise it in your OWN SALES section here on Geekhack.

I say it once and I'll say it a THOUSAND times Brian is a complete tosser  .

Good that Qtan needs to set the rules for him here instead of all the fanboys allowing him to get away with this type of behaviour.  In fact for the Fanboys, just go to EK and get your goods, why stop here then?

For the REST of us that want to be here in this GROUP BUY arranged by our ever trustworthy Boost, we're not going anywhere.........so there  .

Oh, for crying out loud, take a Midol and quit whining like a little girl. The purpose of the GB was to get us some of these boards. What better place for EK to post than here?

I appreciate Boost's efforts in putting together a GB. And if he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart with no profit on top, EK just saved him a lot of time and trouble. He should be tickled pink. The only reason I can see for him to be upset with EK informing us that they will sell these boards is because he's making money on the deal. As a conservative and an unapologetic capitalist, I have no problem with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this was a public forum? Which means, anybody can post. And in a public forum that will impact my wallet, I want to be made aware of my options, all of them. You on the other hand prefer an isolationist approach. So move to Cuba.

Edit:

Boost himself brought up the rumor that EK might be carrying the 660C...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43134.120

And when EK responds to confirm the rumor, everybody gets all butt hurt. Yeah...that makes a lot of sense.

[demik]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

I say it once and I'll say it a THOUSAND times Brian is a complete tosser  .

did brian **** your girlfriend or something? i dont know what your deal is, but your constant **** talking about him and EK is getting annoying. you had one bad experience with him, fine, don't purchase from him. but stop dragging his name through the dirt because you're a whiny little *****.

[Halverson]

EK, as member of community I want to said that you are in the wrong place to discuss this topic. It is very important to respect people's affect for they work. People buy from community member has their good reason like I prefer my friendly small local store than Wal-mark. Trying to marking, under your business name in this post is bad bad bad move, as so far I can consider it is against the rule of group buy.

I say it once and I'll say it a THOUSAND times Brian is a complete tosser  .

did brian **** your girlfriend or something? i dont know what your deal is, but your constant **** talking about him and EK is getting annoying. you had one bad experience with him, fine, don't purchase from him. but stop dragging his name through the dirt because you're a whiny little *****.

And thus spoke demik, and all was good

[daerid]

While I have had nothing but positive experiences with EliteKeyboards, I must say that the statement about ending the GB caught me by surprise.

[shibbyllama889]

I dunno, it was a little odd he threw his weight around (which might be warranted, I don't know) but it wasn't necessary. But it isn't changing my opinion or shopping habits. I've had good experiences with him in the past and I'm not offended by what he said. I think speaking out in the thread was a fine place because we were all wondering about EK stock anyway. Why would he reactivate his forum and then create a new thread which no one is aware of? I think the threat of threadcrapping is too high around here, it's just not that big of a deal.

[jwaz]

While I have had nothing but positive experiences with EliteKeyboards, I must say that the statement about ending the GB caught me by surprise. I do NOT appreciate that attitude,

Caught me off guard as well. I don't see why he would feel so threatened by it. I doubt our community accounts for a large portion of his sales.

[SmallFry]

[metalliqaz]

I think most of you people are being complete psychos, including the mods.

EK says they can enforce their North American exclusivity "with one phone call" and I believe him.  It doesn't matter if I agree with him or not.  I won't even bring up First Sale Doctrine because it makes no difference.  I believe him.

kawa: you censor EK like that, maybe that pushes him over the edge and he pulls the plug.  You ever consider that?

That being said, it is in everyone's best interests to know their options.  Why is there so much HATE?  God damn.  If qtan and elrick didn't start attacking EK like f'ing crazy then everyone would still be happy.  People would understand their options for buying retail and boosts GB could continue without the drama.  What do we have instead?  What I see in this thread is EK acting professional and everyone else being ****s.

[Turbo Slaab]

I think most of you people are being complete psychos, including the mods.

EK says they can enforce their North American exclusivity "with one phone call" and I believe him.  It doesn't matter if I agree with him or not.  I won't even bring up First Sale Doctrine because it makes no difference.  I believe him.

kawa: you censor EK like that, maybe that pushes him over the edge and he pulls the plug.  You ever consider that?

That being said, it is in everyone's best interests to know their options.  Why is there so much HATE?  God damn.  If qtan and elrick didn't start attacking EK like f'ing crazy then everyone would still be happy.  People would understand their options for buying retail and boosts GB could continue without the drama.  What do we have instead?  What I see in this thread is EK acting professional and everyone else being ****s.

How would he stop someone in Korea sending Boost some keyboards?

Kawa didn't censor anyone. He made an attempt to re-rail that thread by moving the discussion.



The OG post from EK was not the place for that and his responses after sunk him deeper.

[metalliqaz]

How would he stop someone in Korea sending Boost some keyboards?

I'm guessing you know about as much as I do about the specifics of how these products are imported.  That is to say, ZERO.  So don't just make assumptions.

Kawa didn't censor anyone. He made an attempt to re-rail that thread by moving the discussion.

Saying, if effect, "shut up or get out" qualifies, in my humble opinion.

The OG post from EK was not the place for that and his responses after sunk him deeper.

I think it was definitely on-topic.  Like I said, it's better for everyone to be informed.

[WRXChris]

How would he stop someone in Korea sending Boost some keyboards?

I'm guessing you know about as much as I do about the specifics of how these products are imported.  That is to say, ZERO.  So don't just make assumptions.

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

His arrogance and attitude toward the community that likely makes up a significant chunk of his business is eyebrow-raising, IMO.

It's the I can shut this group buy down with one phone call (based on assumptions), after crapping up boost's GB thread (against forum rules) that upset people, and rightfully so.  He started the post off with "While we have no obligation to say anything" which further implies that he doesn't really care about us as a community, and from what I've seen, EK usually only stops in to post when people badmouth his business or bring competition.

[daerid]

From what I understand, boost has a proxy (i.e: an individual) who is willing to work with him on getting the boards. But I don't want to put words in his mouth. If he wants to come in here and explain, that's up to him.

kawa: you censor EK like that, maybe that pushes him over the edge and he pulls the plug.  You ever consider that?

Are you essentially saying that we should let somebody or some business do whatever they want and act however they want without speaking up just because they're the sole source of some product? That's doesn't seem right.

[Turbo Slaab]

How would he stop someone in Korea sending Boost some keyboards?

I'm guessing you know about as much as I do about the specifics of how these products are imported.  That is to say, ZERO.  So don't just make assumptions.

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

His arrogance and attitude toward the community that likely makes up a significant chunk of his business is eyebrow-raising, IMO.

It's the I can shut this group buy down with one phone call (based on assumptions), after crapping up boost's GB thread (against forum rules) that upset people, and rightfully so.  He started the post off with "While we have no obligation to say anything" which further implies that he doesn't really care about us as a community, and from what I've seen, EK usually only stops in to post when people badmouth his business or bring competition.

This is how I feel. Options are always good for the community, but I believe EK crossed a line in trying to let the community know that he will stock these as well. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[metalliqaz]

Options are always good for the community, but I believe EK crossed a line in trying to let the community know that he will stock these as well. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

(emphasis added)

I'm speachless.  i feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[metalliqaz]

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

Again, I know ZERO about it, although everyone else seems to think they know everything about it.  I'll just shoot one word out there that might be a possibility:  Customs.

[Turbo Slaab]

Options are always good for the community, but I believe EK crossed a line in trying to let the community know that he will stock these as well. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

(emphasis added)

I'm speachless.  i feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Sorry, I worded that wrong. It's fine letting the community know what is coming, it was just the way it happened that was uncalled for, IMHO.

[esoomenona]

I think it was pretty funny Elrick started the EK bashing after just he other day giving me a lecture on forgiveness and acceptance.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I refrained from replying since last night it was in the GB thread, and I didn't want the thread to be further crapped on. But since this is split off, here is my further input regarding this:

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

Tell me this doesn't sound arrogant at all. You're saying your account here on GH gets special privileges because you're a vendor? Well I don't see a vendor section for you at all. In fact, you requested not to have one. And this privilege means no rules apply to you, therefore you're allowed to parade on any thread?

Second, this GB continues only because of your permission? While you do have exclusive distribution in the US, Boost is not a company here in the US. How do you stop something that was imported from a "friend" in Korea, who could have gotten it from a legal distributor in Korea? Unless now you're trying to control what leaves which countries too.


Really, this is just bad practice from a business owner. It could have been handled much better without feeling defensive about all this. Although, I will say non of this sways where my money will go. I'll still buy from EK if I ever need anything, likewise from members on here as well.

[qtan5370]

admin did a good move. The topic of course should be moved according to the rule that announced and in force before this happen. 

I believe Ek don't have to power or right to stop it if I am the one running this group buy. I am very sure so far, if I want to sell Leopold to U.S. I can sell it, no problem at all.

Of course they will have better price and better service compare to what I can offer. But it won't stop customer buying from me if they run out of stock while I still have it. It is common sense of business, time and price all matter, customer make the choice. As long as I won't trying to fold the market with lower price, it is 100% within my right to sell the item. Of course, if I engage selling it lower than it should be and try to ruin the market, then I am doing wrong. 

Again, I am very clear, it is good for EK provide those information for buyers interested, but he has to present it with a right way in the right place. 

[WRXChris]

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

Again, I know ZERO about it, although everyone else seems to think they know everything about it.  I'll just shoot one word out there that might be a possibility:  Customs.

I don't think I know everything about exclusive distribution contracts, but I'm almost positive that customs doesn't enforce these contracts.  They enforce Copyright and patent laws, ensure that items are federally legal, and enforce import taxes (and probably some other stuff too).  If EK believes that another Topre or Leopold retailer / distributor is breaking the terms of their exclusive distribution contract, they can file a civil lawsuit and will most likely win with the contract on their side.  International law is complex, however, so a more likely solution would be EK calls Topre/Leopold and the offender's distribution rights get revoked.  A group buy, as long as no one is making a profit, is not a breach of any exclusive distribution contract, unless the items are purchased directly from an out-of-market vendor who has agreed not to distribute to your market.  A consumer proxy can do whatever they want once they have purchased something at retail, include ship the item to an end user in another market.  This is called grey market sales, is completely legal, and cannot be controlled by the manufacturer or vendors.  It is on the manufacturer and vendor to set prices closely across markets so that there isn't incentive for buyers to organize out-of-market group buys to save money, which according to EK's 660C price estimate happened successfully, therefore they have nothing to worry about after this GB is complete (but clearly they are sour that it's happening at all).

All EK had to do was NOT make threats and NOT violate GH rules; everything else they posted was useful information.  If they didn't decline to have a vendor forum, a place where they could inform us of upcoming products, this whole thing could have been avoided in the first place, as the only reason this GB is happening was because EK still hasn't stocked Leopold's most recently released keyboards and refuses to give their customers any info as to why, so there was concern they would do the same with the 660C. 

I'll reiterate, I don't know everything about exclusive distribution contracts and international business law, so take all this with a grain of salt.  I'll also mention that I don't agree with exclusive distribution contracts, they are a method of price control and are likely part of the reason Topre keyboards are so expensive. 

[Shadovved]

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

Again, I know ZERO about it, although everyone else seems to think they know everything about it.  I'll just shoot one word out there that might be a possibility:  Customs.

I don't think I know everything about exclusive distribution contracts, but I'm almost positive that customs doesn't enforce these contracts.  They enforce Copyright and patent laws, ensure that items are federally legal, and enforce import taxes (and probably some other stuff too).  If EK believes that another Topre or Leopold retailer / distributor is breaking the terms of their exclusive distribution contract, they can file a civil lawsuit and will most likely win with the contract on their side.  International law is complex, however, so a more likely solution would be EK calls Topre/Leopold and the offender's distribution rights get revoked.  A group buy, as long as no one is making a profit, is not a breach of any exclusive distribution contract, unless the items are purchased directly from an out-of-market vendor who has agreed not to distribute to your market.  A consumer proxy can do whatever they want once they have purchased something at retail, include ship the item to an end user in another market.  This is called grey market sales, is completely legal, and cannot be controlled by the manufacturer or vendors.  It is on the manufacturer and vendor to set prices closely across markets so that there isn't incentive for buyers to organize out-of-market group buys to save money, which according to EK's 660C price estimate happened successfully, therefore they have nothing to worry about after this GB is complete (but clearly they are sour that it's happening at all).

All EK had to do was NOT make threats and NOT violate GH rules; everything else they posted was useful information.  If they didn't decline to have a vendor forum, a place where they could inform us of upcoming products, this whole thing could have been avoided in the first place, as the only reason this GB is happening was because EK still hasn't stocked Leopold's most recently released keyboards and refuses to give their customers any info as to why, so there was concern they would do the same with the 660C. 

I'll reiterate, I don't know everything about exclusive distribution contracts and international business law, so take all this with a grain of salt.  I'll also mention that I don't agree with exclusive distribution contracts, they are a method of price control and are likely part of the reason Topre keyboards are so expensive.

Technically, you are right, but the point to note is that even if boost brought in a ****-ton of Leo keyboards for sale in direct competition with EK, EK is helpless

Cos being the distributor doesnt allow you monopoly, and parallel imports are perfectly legal

And exclusive distribution typically also come with the requirement to stock a certain product exclusively, so now we might want to ask why doesnt EK stock Filcos and other stuff, yknow

EDIT: take this with a grain of salt or two, as I am not really really sure how such stuff works in the US :9

[mkawa]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

[guilleguillaume]

Is quite funny to see how Brian tells you about the oportunity of purchasing the Leopold 660C in the next days and most of you get mad because he wrote it in a GB thread.

Group Buys are made to help the community getting items you wouldn't be able to get otherwise so where's the problem in Brian saying that he could get the keyboards cheaper, faster and with full warranty? I don't understand your point of view.

If anyone interested can get the keyboard faster and cheaper with warranty I don't see why would someone prefer to get one from a GB.

I'm really sure that if some EU folks were trying to get some Realforce keyboards and to name someone, Bruce was telling us that he could get those keyboards for cheaper price and faster no one would refuse the chance to get them trough a reputed seller like Keyboardco and save the trouble from purchasing outside EU.

I think there's to much hate in here. I don't see the problem in Brian letting us know that he will be carrying the keyboards. The only one angry about it might be Boost if he was runnning the GB for profit (I don't know that).

[Shadovved]

Is quite funny to see how Brian tells you about the oportunity of purchasing the Leopold 660C in the next days and most of you get mad because he wrote it in a GB thread.

Group Buys are made to help the community getting items you wouldn't be able to get otherwise so where's the problem in Brian saying that he could get the keyboards cheaper, faster and with full warranty? I don't understand your point of view.

If anyone interested can get the keyboard faster and cheaper with warranty I don't see why would someone prefer to get one from a GB.

I'm really sure that if some EU folks were trying to get some Realforce keyboards and to name someone, Bruce was telling us that he could get those keyboards for cheaper price and faster no one would refuse the chance to get them trough a reputed seller like Keyboardco and save the trouble from purchasing outside EU.

I think there's to much hate in here. I don't see the problem in Brian letting us know that he will be carrying the keyboards. The only one angry about it might be Boost if he was runnning the GB for profit (I don't know that).

I think most of them are angry about how he put across his point, instead of at the point itself.

We understand his kind motives behind sharing that information with us

[WRXChris]

Is quite funny to see how Brian tells you about the oportunity of purchasing the Leopold 660C in the next days and most of you get mad because he wrote it in a GB thread.

Group Buys are made to help the community getting items you wouldn't be able to get otherwise so where's the problem in Brian saying that he could get the keyboards cheaper, faster and with full warranty? I don't understand your point of view.

If anyone interested can get the keyboard faster and cheaper with warranty I don't see why would someone prefer to get one from a GB.

I'm really sure that if some EU folks were trying to get some Realforce keyboards and to name someone, Bruce was telling us that he could get those keyboards for cheaper price and faster no one would refuse the chance to get them trough a reputed seller like Keyboardco and save the trouble from purchasing outside EU.

I think there's to much hate in here. I don't see the problem in Brian letting us know that he will be carrying the keyboards. The only one angry about it might be Boost if he was runnning the GB for profit (I don't know that).

You're right there was nothing wrong with that, the issue is this:

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

So you're mistaken in saying that I am engaged in direct competition; when it comes to products that EK has exclusive distribution for in North America, there isn't any. I realize this probably sounds tyrannical, but this is how business works, it's pretty cut and dry.

EK thinks that they are above GH rules, and monopoly law doesn't apply to them.  Pitchforks were in order.

[Glod]

Pitchforks were in order.

pretty accurate there. honestly i'm surprised ek kept replying after the monster response he gave which is now the OP of this topic. if he didn't keep going then i doubt we would have our pitchforks out; ek knows not everyone here is a fan of him so of course there would be backlash for his reply, it should have been expected by him, no need to keep feeding the anger because it can only make things worse for his reputation and not better.

Although most of what he said in the OP, if not all of it, are facts, the fact he, as a vendor, posted it in the community organized and funded group buy section was a **** move and an insult to all community group buy organizers and participants. A good amount of us are not stupid participants of group buys, we know the risks, we have read the geek hack TOS for the group buy section and we ACCEPT the risks and terms, we don't need a vendor "reminding us" on reasons not to participate in a group buy. Carrying on with responses threatening to disrupt the group buy was just the nail on the coffin for many here.

I've ordered a few times from him; when i had a shipping problem his support was excellent. he is a trustworthy vendor in my eyes but If it wasn't for my personal good experience with him i would interpret his responses as a sign to stay away. Its going to take a while to overcome this PR blunder.

[metalliqaz]

Geekhack: Serious Business

[SmallFry]

Agreed 'Qaz. So... Epsilon 2.0, I suggest a 660C layout. We should do a GB and sell them at Techkeys. )

[ApocalypseMaow]

Agreed 'Qaz. So... Epsilon 2.0, I suggest a 660C layout. We should do a GB and sell them at Techkeys. )

Touché

[Larken]

All I actually saw in the thread was Elrick inciting crap against EK (I have no idea why, personal beef?) and qtan going off tangent about business morals and practices, a discussion that should've been taken somewhere else, perhaps pm.

EK actually makes a few valid and reasonable points, and is actually justified to defend his own position, albeit in a high-handed manner that no one likes (not saying that it's wrong, but its a dumb move cuz no one likes that crap).

The smart thing for him to do would've been to refuse to engage the two in the first place, after his first post, which I found no real problems with, although it could have been much shorter and could do without the whole 'this won't affect my business, so I don't care' attitude. There were a few insinuations that could have been interpreted either way, but he never did take a dump on Boost's credibility in the first place imo.

I understand why EK reacted the way he did. It's fine for someone to say that he trusts Boost alot. No problem. As far as boost is concerned, I think he seems like a great guy. But there was never any need to add in a comparison. 'I trust Boost 1000% more than Brian (EK)?'. I don't see any reason for a comparison, except to start a fight or just give a backhanded insult to someone.

Those with children would understand. "Oh your son is so cute." -> "Yea, he's about 1000% cuter than your daughter." If anyone doesn't take offense at that, I'd like to meet him/her.

Imo the drama was incited and aggravated by just two members, Elrick and qtan. EK responded to them in a way that would rub the rest of the community the wrong way.

[demik]

All I actually saw in the thread was Elrick inciting crap against EK (I have no idea why, personal beef?) and qtan going off tangent about business morals and practices, a discussion that should've been taken somewhere else, perhaps pm.

EK actually makes a few valid and reasonable points, and is actually justified to defend his own position, albeit in a high-handed manner that no one likes (not saying that it's wrong, but its a dumb move cuz no one likes that crap).

The smart thing for him to do would've been to refuse to engage the two in the first place, after his first post, which I found no real problems with, although it could have been much shorter and could do without the whole 'this won't affect my business, so I don't care' attitude. There were a few insinuations that could have been interpreted either way, but he never did take a dump on Boost's credibility in the first place imo.

I understand why EK reacted the way he did. It's fine for someone to say that he trusts Boost alot. No problem. As far as boost is concerned, I think he seems like a great guy. But there was never any need to add in a comparison. 'I trust Boost 1000% more than Brian (EK)?'. I don't see any reason for a comparison, except to start a fight or just give a backhanded insult to someone.

Those with children would understand. "Oh your son is so cute." -> "Yea, he's about 1000% cuter than your daughter." If anyone doesn't take offense at that, I'd like to meet him/her.

Imo the drama was incited and aggravated by just two members, Elrick and qtan. EK responded to them in a way that would rub the rest of the community the wrong way.

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

[tjcaustin]

All I actually saw in the thread was Elrick inciting crap against EK (I have no idea why, personal beef?) and qtan going off tangent about business morals and practices, a discussion that should've been taken somewhere else, perhaps pm.

EK actually makes a few valid and reasonable points, and is actually justified to defend his own position, albeit in a high-handed manner that no one likes (not saying that it's wrong, but its a dumb move cuz no one likes that crap).

The smart thing for him to do would've been to refuse to engage the two in the first place, after his first post, which I found no real problems with, although it could have been much shorter and could do without the whole 'this won't affect my business, so I don't care' attitude. There were a few insinuations that could have been interpreted either way, but he never did take a dump on Boost's credibility in the first place imo.

I understand why EK reacted the way he did. It's fine for someone to say that he trusts Boost alot. No problem. As far as boost is concerned, I think he seems like a great guy. But there was never any need to add in a comparison. 'I trust Boost 1000% more than Brian (EK)?'. I don't see any reason for a comparison, except to start a fight or just give a backhanded insult to someone.

Those with children would understand. "Oh your son is so cute." -> "Yea, he's about 1000% cuter than your daughter." If anyone doesn't take offense at that, I'd like to meet him/her.

Imo the drama was incited and aggravated by just two members, Elrick and qtan. EK responded to them in a way that would rub the rest of the community the wrong way.

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

^

[Michael]

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

I am very sorry to have to inform you of this, but I agree 100%

[TreeSc2]

Nevermind the 600c im still waiting for elitekeyboards to get the 700r! Its been forever, and ive contacted them numerous times. I feel like all these sites that u can get keyboards from NEVER have what you want in stock so you have to venture elsewhere and spend a fortune OR take a chance with a private seller.

[dante]

What is EK going to do?  Contact Park Geun-hye and ask her to do him a solid?

If Brian was as consistent with communication as say ShakeR/Rajiv/Carter/TechKeys this situation would have never happened.

[EZjiji]

Meh, all this drama could have been prevented if Brian just posted on GH when he got them in. People would have pulled out anyway. GP already canceled.

[tsangan]

First and foremost, I would like to say I've dealt with Brain/EK in the past MANY times and he's always able to assist regarding any issues, Brain/EK does deserve a tad more respect then we give him to be honest. There has always been a love hate relationship with EK ever since I heard about them.

For this next part, I didn't follow this thread completely so please do correct me if I am wrong.

I think this specific post was kind of uncalled for

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

Of course I'm not sure if someone angered him for him to post it in such a way but like a few other members have said it definitely does not look good.

In the end I think all the members here just wanted the keyboard regardless of if its coming from a GB or from EK. If there was a tad more communications of course that would be great but we do have to consider that EK is not ran by a lot of people.

Also if this was made as an announcement/Leopold 660C at EliteKeyboards thread I don't think people would have an issue at all, it's the original post by Brian that kinda set the tone that buying via EK is better, instead of "oh look guys we're carrying this soon!" Kind of took the excitement and joy of new product and made it more negative.

[qtan5370]

Nevermind the 600c im still waiting for elitekeyboards to get the 700r! Its been forever, and ive contacted them numerous times. I feel like all these sites that u can get keyboards from NEVER have what you want in stock so you have to venture elsewhere and spend a fortune OR take a chance with a private seller.

Well, 700R is exclusive to Korean market. However, I am consider carry a few of them. I am in Seoul and just have to check out the shipping part before I can start selling some leopold product. 

BTW, I never consider that discussing business law, contract or what here in the topic. I drop in because I want to check the supply and demand of Leopold, than I see EK possibly break the rule and also he start branch marking all GB runners (well, he changed it later by modifying the post) that make me feel I have to speak out. 

Also, if your a businessman you will understand even you can win (and I don't think they can, however, debate remain open, I can see good point for  both sides) a lawsuit to stop international seller selling product to place you have exclusive right, on average it takes 2 year to do so, cost you a lot of money, and the chance you getting anything is very little. The enforcement also very hard. Almost no one would try it for such small amount of sell.     

[demik]

me thinks you should worry about your own business.

[dante]

Well, 700R is exclusive to Korean market. However, I am consider carry a few of them. I am in Seoul and just have to check out the shipping part before I can start selling some leopold product.

Australia has had the 700R for more than 6 months [11 months after the release in Korea] so availability from Leopold is not an issue.  The only other thing that might spook Brian is quality - which is probably something he can't talk about.

EK keeps running out of the FC200R so what the hell do I know?

[RickyJ]

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

Yup, nice to see someone's evident grudge ruin a situation. Also glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I didn't know that the FC700 was exclusive to the Korean market, perhaps Brian should have responded to requests by saying that instead of "ignoring" them? I can understand that people wouldn't think he'd bring in the 660 series (I sure didn't, but am glad he is), but wish he announced it better. I'm also curious if he's going to bring in the MX version as well.

A sad situation that could have been avoided.

[elitekeyboards]

Yup, nice to see someone's evident grudge ruin a situation. Also glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I didn't know that the FC700 was exclusive to the Korean market, perhaps Brian should have responded to requests by saying that instead of "ignoring" them? I can understand that people wouldn't think he'd bring in the 660 series (I sure didn't, but am glad he is), but wish he announced it better. I'm also curious if he's going to bring in the MX version as well.

A sad situation that could have been avoided.

FC700 isn't exclusive to the Korean market. And I don't ignore emails inquiring about them, I give all the information I can at the time. Don't believe everything you read on the internet...

[Jocelyn]

Any idea if the FC660C will ever be available in other colors; white and/or gray?

[VesperSAINT]

Any idea if the FC660C will ever be available in other colors; white and/or gray?

+1

Also very interested in this!

[elitekeyboards]

Any idea if the FC660C will ever be available in other colors; white and/or gray?

The retail box has a checkbox printed on it for both black and white boards, so we can assume there is some intention to make a white board, but nothing has been announced from Leopold Korea yet.

[Jocelyn]

The retail box has a checkbox printed on it for both black and white boards, so we can assume there is some intention to make a white board, but nothing has been announced from Leopold Korea yet.

I understand that doesn't guarantee anything, but Thank You for the very interesting tidbit

[VesperSAINT]

That definitely does bring a sliver of hope to meh

[elitekeyboards]

To anyone disturbed by my, admittedly unruly, post a few days ago...

I want to apologize for any offenses I made, but, as I will explain, I was a bit irritated by the existence of the FC660C GB; on GH of all places.

I tried to be as pleasant as I could be in my first post. After that I think I must have been very tired when I broke my rule of arguing with people on the internet! Namely qtan, as I wasn't trying to make threats or sound arrogant; definitely came across that way though.

Well, prdlm2009 questioned my professional courtesies...and the fact that EK is the exclusive Leopold reseller in the US is very well known, so for a moderator of GH to just ignore this fact pretty much throws the whole GB out the window from the get-go. I think it is fair to say that in order for boost to be deserving of any professional courtesies, he would have to have acted towards me professionally before he decided to have a group buy for 40+ keyboards. Buying 3 or 4 for your friends is one thing, but the 42+ he was proposing to order is reseller territory. Heck, the first order of FILCOs sold on EK 4 years ago was only 40 units!

I feel respecting our customers is the most important thing we can do. This is why I'm very careful about what I sell, as I do not want to represent a product that can't live up to customer expectations. For the same reason I'm sensitive about other people representing our products. EK has spent a considerable amount of time and money over the last couple of years to make Leopold a respected name. Now I might be mistaken, but it *appeared* boost thought he'd ride those coattails and make a quick buck.

Anyways, I'm not surprised by the backlash from the community about my comments. I know, some people have assumed the worst of my intentions; but I hope everyone can understand that I have longer term plans and bigger sights set than destroying GBs for 40 keyboard sales.

Brian

[esoomenona]

So if anyone wants to perform a GB for Leopolds, regardless of the fact that they'll never be sold by the "sole" reseller of them in the US (i.e. 700R), they can't because you're the only one who can? That's ridiculous. Who knows what you'll pick and choose to sell, and you can't stop a GB from happening, because it isn't resale.

[MJ45]

I am a relatively new GH member and keyboard enthusiast but I have learned pretty quick that people can become upset when it comes their keyboards. I have done business with both EK and qtan5370 and will again, and they both have a valid points. Its their its their bread & butter and get us what we desire. But I think the whole thing got blown out of proportion. With all the supposed interest in the FC660C it hasn't even sold out yet.

[IPT]

So if anyone wants to perform a GB for Leopolds, regardless of the fact that they'll never be sold by the "sole" reseller of them in the US (i.e. 700R), they can't because you're the only one who can? That's ridiculous. Who knows what you'll pick and choose to sell, and you can't stop a GB from happening, because it isn't resale.

however for such a large quantity to be sold at once, you're going through some sort of distributor.
With EK saying he has the exclusive contract with Leopold, if he was to choose to, im sure he can call up his sales contact at leopold and inquire about what local retailer all of a sudden increased their keyboard order for the FC660.  You may wonder why Leopold would even bother to answer his inquiry.  It's because he most likely has a specific Contact quota he's required to purchase per year, so whether his keyboards sell or not, he still has to buy the stock from Leopold.
So to maintain that sales contract, his Leopold Sales agent will definitely get involved.

Also just a little insight regarding shipping and US Customs:  If you are a corporation with a US Customs annual bond, then you will have a lot easier time importing goods through US Customs than if you're an individual importing large quantities of goods on a single entry bond.  these type of shipments attract more attention from US Customs than corporations.  They always require documents to be files for inspection/review for single entry bonds.

Also with EK's "lifespan", US Customs already knows what he imports, and he's under less scrutiny as again he has a record of importing these types of goods.

Im not saying what's right or wrong in terms of Brian's attitude or postings here on GH.  Personally i think way worst behavior/BM postings happen than his posts.

Either way, i wouldn't hesitate to do business with EK in the future, currently considering getting a 660C.
And lets be honest, the 1st chance they'll have CC's available again, im sure all these people who say they won't deal with EK will be pressing F5 the fastest they can lol.

[mkawa]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

[IPT]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

i don't disagree with you, i was just stating why he may actually be able to do what he said.
your forum, your rules ofcourse
my comment was more a tangent of how supplier/reseller relationship would be.

[elitekeyboards]

I'm not sure what to think about that response; I've never had an issue ek and I'll buy from him again but buddy your response kind of sort of comes off as an insult to boost, at least from my perspective that is

So if anyone wants to perform a GB for Leopolds, regardless of the fact that they'll never be sold by the "sole" reseller of them in the US (i.e. 700R), they can't because you're the only one who can? That's ridiculous. Who knows what you'll pick and choose to sell, and you can't stop a GB from happening, because it isn't resale.

The biggest concern is brand reputation. We filter most of the products we import, particularly the ones made in China and Taiwan, and usually specify higher-quality components and cables for our boards. This is part of what we do to ensure a good customer experience. When we first started selling FILCO keyboards we found 10 boards in every 100 that had controller issues, key coating issues, LED issues, stabilizer squeaks, and chattering issues. We tested every single board to deal with this. No lemons leaving our warehouse is part of the reason FILCO gained such a good reputation. The MJ2 implemented a lot of changes we requested.

Recently I've heard rumor of possible counterfeiting of Leopold and FILCO products in China; so such an unchecked dubious product entering the hands of a group of outspoken keyboard enthusiasts is somewhat concerning for a small business like EK.

I have less concern of same-model competitors in this market, but for models we do not carry would it be too much to ask that any GB runner on GH contacted us about it? Isn't our willingness to accommodate GH'ers over the years worth at least that respect? Likely my answers would be either:

1. Who is the source? Followed by "Sure go ahead" or "Bad idea".
2. We'll be selling that model around this date and probably at a better price than you can. You might reconsider.

Going around our back would mean that a distributor in another country is breaking his/her distribution contract; either directly or indirectly. And Leopold won't take lightly to it.

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

What does GH exist for? EK and many other small businesses have grown out of GBs on GH. Are you arguing that these small businesses do the community no good and should not be respected? I'm not asking for protection of market share, that's my job, I'm asking for respect for our hard work and the reputation of our products.

I think it's in the interest of GH'ers to support businesses that grew out of GH. We have the willingness to pay for products and costly tooling the community can never afford as well as create better feedback and communication with manufacturers.

[o2dazone]

A lot of heat around this. I'm glad EK is around. Thanks to Brian, I don't have to talk to broken English couriers to get my hands on boards and accessories across seas. I also don't have the time or patience to have my money tied up in a flimsy group buy. EK provides this service as a premium, and I'm pretty confident in saying I'm not the only one who will pay for this service. Stop thinking one-dimensionally. If someones business model is being damaged by free market, then maybe it's time to get a better business model.

[Acetrak]

With regards to counterfeiting, I think they're made in Korea
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33130.msg863549#msg863549

[eth0s]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

I have to say I totally disagree with any punitive action.  There should be none.  In fact any punitive action against anyone in this thread would be an abuse of power, and a serious mistake.  This is a forum for discussing keyboards.  Keyboards were discussed.  Things got heated:  true.  Feelings got hurt: true.  People were upset:  true.  But, there was no abusive language, no racism, no personal attacks.  Basically, a heated discussion happened on a forum.  Which is what forums are supposed to be for.  Now, with that said, EK Brian acted like a royal d!ckhead with his comment that he could stop Boost's GB with one phone call.  It was a d!cky thing to say, but it also happens to be true.  There were many better ways to say the same thing.  But he chose the d!icky way.  Is that worthy of punishment?  No.  Why?  Because you have to look at his motivation and his intent.  He was not intending to hurt anybody, he was trying to protect his exclusive right to sell Leopold keyboards.  He signed an exclusive distributorship agreement with Leopold.  As such, he has the right under the contract to stop the GB, or even worse, he has the right to bring a lawsuit against Boost to permanently enjoin him from selling or attempting to sell Leopold keyboards anywhere in the United States.  At least he didn't threaten to do that. 

So in conclusion, you cannot punish someone for asserting their lawful right to enforce their exclusive distributorship, even if he did it in a non-courteous manner.  Many people here obviously do not like the idea that EK Brian has the exclusive right to sell Leopold keyboards in the US.  However, that is the law, and that is our capitalist system.  He got the contract, and that's it.  You can like it or lump it.  But you can't change it.  It is not the fault of EK Brian or Leopold.  They are doing what capitalists do, find a niche to make money, and then set out to protect their niche to make money.  I would have counselled EK Brian to handle things differently, but then again, it's his right to handle it how he wants.  Although it looks like he regrets the way he handled it.  Anyway, I would strongly object to any punishment. 

[aggiejy]

All I know is I drink the hell out of Mexican Coke here in Texas.  The bottlers here hate it and have tried to sue a few different parties to stop it.  Coke themselves have tried to stop it.  Yet, it's at every gas station I go to, it's at Sam's and it's at Costco.  It's imported to the US from Mexico and sold openly through a distributor that has no Coke contract.  Coke can't stop it, they can just threaten the bottler in Mexico.  That bottler says they don't sell to the distributor.  So the distributor is buying it from another distributor in Mexico. 

Coke doesn't like it and says/wants it to be illegal.  Yet, I've been buying it for over 5 years now... if anything it's more popular than ever before.

(It has real sugar... not high fructose corn syrup)

[VesperSAINT]

All I know is I drink the hell out of Mexican Coke here in Texas.  The bottlers here hate it and have tried to sue a few different parties to stop it.  Coke themselves have tried to stop it.  Yet, it's at every gas station I go to, it's at Sam's and it's at Costco.  It's imported to the US from Mexico and sold openly through a distributor that has no Coke contract.  Coke can't stop it, they can just threaten the bottler in Mexico.  That bottler says they don't sell to the distributor.  So the distributor is buying it from another distributor in Mexico. 

Coke doesn't like it and says/wants it to be illegal.  Yet, I've been buying it for over 5 years now... if anything it's more popular than ever before.

(It has real sugar... not high fructose corn syrup)

This post had me giggling because I know what he's talking about.

On another note, I hope that Leopold brings out the White/Beige and EK gets them so I can get my hands on one.

[daerid]

Mexican Coke > US Coke

Please don't misconstrue that as an allegory for the situation in this thread. It's meant very literally.

After a few PMs with Brian, I understand where he's coming from a bit more clearly. I may disagree with the level of professionalism displayed in the way he communicated his stance, but that's his choice and his right. He's running a business in a niche market, and I can imagine it can be very stressful, and after all he's human just like the rest of us.

If you don't like what he's doing, vote with your wallet, don't waste your breath beating a dead horse here on GH.

[Halverson]

I want Mexican coke...in Canada.

[IPT]

I want Mexican coke...in Canada.

neva!
all your coke are belong to us! (yes i butchered the meme on purpose)

[VesperSAINT]

Dem bottles are so beautiful.

[aggiejy]

Mexican Coke > US Coke

Please don't misconstrue that as an allegory for the situation in this thread. It's meant very literally.

Agreed, I don't mean to draw an exact parallel.  I'm expressing no opinion on this situation... I haven't kept up with it entirely.  But the allegory was more in response to eth0s' comment that an exclusive agreement with a manufacturer is always cut and dry.  In the case of Coke, bottlers have exclusive territories and they take it VERY seriously.  But as demonstrated if you read up on the Mexican Coke situation, the contract between Coke and the bottlers isn't binding to the importer.  The importer has no contract with either.  The bottler sues Coke over it, not the importer.  (Which they'd like to do as well, but don't have grounds!)

Again, I'm not drawing a comparison to Boost here as I don't know the details, but in general I think some people's interpretation of contract law might be slightly off base.

[elitekeyboards]

@EK

1.Your distribution contract with Leopold applies to individuals importing keyboards? I find that hard to believe. I can see why you have concerns but clearly you felt threatened and IMO went about this the wrong way. You'll find you catch more flies with honey.

No one said distribution contracts apply to individuals. Each country has a Leopold distributor and we each are supposed to respect other country's distributorship. I think you're falling into the same pattern of thinking that many do in thinking EK is just a left to right distributor selling some majorly marketed consumer product. This is not the case; it's a very small network of dealers and there isn't anywhere to hide.

2.What does GH exist for? Well it sure doesn't exist just so people can make money off of it. GH was here with an active community long before the majority of these new businesses.

Given that a moderator was running a GB wherein he didn't state his purchase price, the strong protectiveness of the GB rules, and the threat of "punitive action" from mkawa for a repeated GB upset; some might consider GH is about money.

I was a member here before any of these companies, including EK, existed. I wanted to make hard to obtain products that the GH community desired regularly available and I cannot begin to account for the time I spent here in the first couple years of business trying to cater directly to the community's concerns and desires. I don't remember things being like this...

One would think you would be more grateful to us instead of the other way around. You get free referrals through search engine results, posts, threads, etc which directly benefit you. But what have you done directly to help keep the site running?

I am very grateful, that is why I try to be honest and straightforward with people here. Your purchases keep the business running, and given my unhealthy penchant for quality, I'd like to think the existence of EK is a good (and grateful) thing for everyone.

Long ago I offered Imav support, but he declined. I've considered offering again over the years, but feared there would be screaming in the streets.

On a side note I'd really like to see what a counterfeit Topre board is like

*Disclaimer: This is my personal view and in no way reflects the views of the staff in general.

I don't believe one exists, but MX boards are not a stretch of anyone's ability.

[Acetrak]

2.What does GH exist for? Well it sure doesn't exist just so people can make money off of it. GH was here with an active community long before the majority of these new businesses.

Given that a moderator was running a GB wherein he didn't state his purchase price, the strong protectiveness of the GB rules, and the threat of "punitive action" from mkawa for a repeated GB upset; some might consider GH is about money.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42728.msg877481#msg877481

[eth0s]

All I know is I drink the hell out of Mexican Coke here in Texas.  The bottlers here hate it and have tried to sue a few different parties to stop it.  Coke themselves have tried to stop it.  Yet, it's at every gas station I go to, it's at Sam's and it's at Costco.  It's imported to the US from Mexico and sold openly through a distributor that has no Coke contract.  Coke can't stop it, they can just threaten the bottler in Mexico.  That bottler says they don't sell to the distributor.  So the distributor is buying it from another distributor in Mexico. 

Coke doesn't like it and says/wants it to be illegal.  Yet, I've been buying it for over 5 years now... if anything it's more popular than ever before.

(It has real sugar... not high fructose corn syrup)

Hmm, this is interesting.  If Mexican Coca Cola is really made from cane sugar, instead of corn syrup, it's actually a different product, and the Texas-based Coke distributor might be unable to stop the sales, or he might be unwilling to test his exclusive rights contract in court (for fear of losing.) 

Either way though, you are talking about smuggling.   Smuggling happens.  It's illegal.  I guess nobody really cares too much about cross-border Coca Cola smuggling, except maybe the millionaire Texas Coke distributor and his family (i.e., heirs), because everyone assumes it's probably not a revenue stream for gangsters and terrorists, like smuggling drugs, guns, women for sex trafficking, and other things.  But you never know.  Especially when it comes from Mexico.

[VesperSAINT]

Ruh roh! We've come to the point where we're talking about smuggling drugs and sex trafficking.

But on the topic, I highly doubt it's smuggling; Sam's Club and Costco will not sell smuggled products.

[aggiejy]

Haha.  It's not smuggling.  Legally purchased goods in one country, imported into another.  The importer has no legal obligation to respect any contracts between two  OTHER people.  And as long as customs are paid and such, it's not smuggling.  Of course, in order to sell it legally in the US, it requires proper labeling.  Thus, every Mexican Coke you find in the US has a sticker with proper nutritional facts, etc.  (The bottle itself is all in Spanish, etc.)

[qtan5370]

All I know is I drink the hell out of Mexican Coke here in Texas.  The bottlers here hate it and have tried to sue a few different parties to stop it.  Coke themselves have tried to stop it.  Yet, it's at every gas station I go to, it's at Sam's and it's at Costco.  It's imported to the US from Mexico and sold openly through a distributor that has no Coke contract.  Coke can't stop it, they can just threaten the bottler in Mexico.  That bottler says they don't sell to the distributor.  So the distributor is buying it from another distributor in Mexico. 

Coke doesn't like it and says/wants it to be illegal.  Yet, I've been buying it for over 5 years now... if anything it's more popular than ever before.

(It has real sugar... not high fructose corn syrup)

Hmm, this is interesting.  If Mexican Coca Cola is really made from cane sugar, instead of corn syrup, it's actually a different product, and the Texas-based Coke distributor might be unable to stop the sales, or he might be unwilling to test his exclusive rights contract in court (for fear of losing.) 

Either way though, you are talking about smuggling.   Smuggling happens.  It's illegal.  I guess nobody really cares too much about cross-border Coca Cola smuggling, except maybe the millionaire Texas Coke distributor and his family (i.e., heirs), because everyone assumes it's probably not a revenue stream for gangsters and terrorists, like smuggling drugs, guns, women for sex trafficking, and other things.  But you never know.  Especially when it comes from Mexico.

Not only in Texas but also in Missouri too, where I can get if not only from the small store but also the big supermarket.It is a good example for how it works. Contract is only apply to the parties who signed it. Cross board selling is not smuggling(which you can see the definition), it is a normal business activities.

Also, proxy also is a common business act which also protected by law. If I pay someone(or a business) to buy something for you, as an end custom oversea and send the item back to me, I am acting within my right.  However, if I intend to resell it for making a profit in the states, then it might become a unlawful action.

[Shadovved]

Parallel imports are never unlawful

Smugging is tax evasion, parallel import is just another lawful way of selling items in the capitalist society we have today.

EK gives the impression that he holds monopoly of the Topre/Leopold market in US, which cannot be true, as anti-trust laws exist......

[nubbinator]

Parallel imports are never unlawful

Smugging is tax evasion, parallel import is just another lawful way of selling items in the capitalist society we have today.

EK gives the impression that he holds monopoly of the Topre/Leopold market in US, which cannot be true, as anti-trust laws exist......

Just because someone has a monopoly doesn't mean they're violating antitrust laws.  There are many perfectly legal monopolies on the market, it's when you abuse your monopoly power that antitrust laws come into effect.  And in a case like this, good luck arguing monopoly or abuse of monopoly.  You have to be the sole provider of a good without viable alternatives to be considered under antitrust.

What Boost was doing was looking at grey market goods.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.  I have bought many grey market goods, namely textbooks, but if Boost was working with a distributor in another country and not using an agent (like you would with Taobao), they could be violating resale and distribution agreements with Leopold.  While not illegal, it can result in someone losing their distribution rights or contracts with Leopold. 

[Shadovved]

Parallel imports are never unlawful

Smugging is tax evasion, parallel import is just another lawful way of selling items in the capitalist society we have today.

EK gives the impression that he holds monopoly of the Topre/Leopold market in US, which cannot be true, as anti-trust laws exist......

Just because someone has a monopoly doesn't mean they're violating antitrust laws.  There are many perfectly legal monopolies on the market, it's when you abuse your monopoly power that antitrust laws come into effect.  And in a case like this, good luck arguing monopoly or abuse of monopoly.  You have to be the sole provider of a good without viable alternatives to be considered under antitrust.

What Boost was doing was looking at grey market goods.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.  I have bought many grey market goods, namely textbooks, but if Boost was working with a distributor in another country and not using an agent (like you would with Taobao), they could be violating resale and distribution agreements with Leopold.  While not illegal, it can result in someone losing their distribution rights or contracts with Leopold.

Well, true that, anti-trust is always a hard case to fight........

The people which would get into trouble would likely be the distributor in KR if EK decides to ring someone.

But unless the distributor is going to ship directly to US, I suppose nothing would come out of it.

[demik]

i love mexican coke, i'll be getting my diabetes the natural way, with real sugar. not no damn high fructose corn syrup.

[WRXChris]

i love mexican coke, i'll be getting my diabetes the natural way, with real sugar. not no damn high fructose corn syrup.

+1!

And just to clarify, mexi-coke is available throughout the US.  Costco may have been the first to distribute it nationally, as their business model relies on grey market supply (but dont quote me on that).  I now find mexi-coke at pretty much every grocery store, and occasionally odd places like best buy.

**** corn syrup, its terribly addictive and presumably is responsible for the rise in diabetes in the US, and likely many other common ailments these days.  If I drink soda it's Mexican made or pepsi / mountain dew throwback!

[VesperSAINT]

Lol! This makes me want to mumble about food politics but I'll refrain BUT DAYUM I could use some mexican coke right about now.

[Macsmasher]

Also, proxy also is a common business act which also protected by law. If I pay someone(or a business) to buy something for you, as an end custom oversea and send the item back to me, I am acting within my right.  However, if I intend to resell it for making a profit in the states, then it might become a unlawful action.

I'm a coder, not a lawyer. But my understanding is that buying through a proxy is fine for an individual. However, reselling the product(s) would probably not be, and I doubt the lack of profit changes that.

I'm glad we have these group buys. I hope they don't stop. But from a legal standpoint, reselling is reselling, regardless of profit.

[aggiejy]

I'm a coder, not a lawyer too.  But I think from a legal standpoint in the US, you can resell anything you legally buy baring regulations (commonly labeling/packaging/local restrictions/etc) or binding contract between you and another party stating you can't.  Which law are you breaking otherwise?  (Not saying there isn't one, but I'm genuinely curious if I'm missing something.)

[daerid]

I'm a coder, not a lawyer. But my understanding is that buying through a proxy is fine for an individual. However, reselling the product(s) would probably not be, and I doubt the lack of profit changes that.

I'm glad we have these group buys. I hope they don't stop. But from a legal standpoint, reselling is reselling, regardless of profit.

Does the order of monetary transactions matter, I wonder? Is it really "reselling" if money is collected up front, and then used to purchase through a proxy? Sounds more like a double-proxy kinda deal.. but then again, I'm not a lawyer either.

[quickcrx702]

Columbian Coke > Mexican Coke > US Coke

LOL.  Sorry, but I couldn't help myself.  The sad part is that the soft drink probably kills more people through obesity related diseases than the powder, and both should be avoided.

[VesperSAINT]

Don't mind me, I'mma just drinkin' ma Mexican coke while I read.

[qtan5370]

Parallel imports are never unlawful ----not to U.S.  So far, no case rule against it.

But it remain questionable in some E.U counties. So, it is prohibited in Hong Kong and Japan, two I am very sure.

However, in the international law and trade level, nothing against it.

About a resell and proxy, a good law person can always argue about it, in fact, it just depend on that way of contract. A clear line is that, for resell, you first own the product and then sell it for profit. Normally, for a B2C selling, seller don't have to know buyer ahead, it just put it up for sell.

But proxy is different, proxy collect buyer information before they purchase product, and hand out buyer information directly to seller, the proxy agency usually do not have the ownership of the product at any point of the sell. So, the actual end user will  indicate on the invoice upon need.

anyway, the fact is, no matter parallel import or proxy, as long as not involved dumping, it is commonly accept among business.