Leopold 660C at EliteKeyboards

[esoomenona]

I think it was pretty funny Elrick started the EK bashing after just he other day giving me a lecture on forgiveness and acceptance.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I refrained from replying since last night it was in the GB thread, and I didn't want the thread to be further crapped on. But since this is split off, here is my further input regarding this:

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

Tell me this doesn't sound arrogant at all. You're saying your account here on GH gets special privileges because you're a vendor? Well I don't see a vendor section for you at all. In fact, you requested not to have one. And this privilege means no rules apply to you, therefore you're allowed to parade on any thread?

Second, this GB continues only because of your permission? While you do have exclusive distribution in the US, Boost is not a company here in the US. How do you stop something that was imported from a "friend" in Korea, who could have gotten it from a legal distributor in Korea? Unless now you're trying to control what leaves which countries too.


Really, this is just bad practice from a business owner. It could have been handled much better without feeling defensive about all this. Although, I will say non of this sways where my money will go. I'll still buy from EK if I ever need anything, likewise from members on here as well.

[qtan5370]

admin did a good move. The topic of course should be moved according to the rule that announced and in force before this happen. 

I believe Ek don't have to power or right to stop it if I am the one running this group buy. I am very sure so far, if I want to sell Leopold to U.S. I can sell it, no problem at all.

Of course they will have better price and better service compare to what I can offer. But it won't stop customer buying from me if they run out of stock while I still have it. It is common sense of business, time and price all matter, customer make the choice. As long as I won't trying to fold the market with lower price, it is 100% within my right to sell the item. Of course, if I engage selling it lower than it should be and try to ruin the market, then I am doing wrong. 

Again, I am very clear, it is good for EK provide those information for buyers interested, but he has to present it with a right way in the right place. 

[WRXChris]

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

Again, I know ZERO about it, although everyone else seems to think they know everything about it.  I'll just shoot one word out there that might be a possibility:  Customs.

I don't think I know everything about exclusive distribution contracts, but I'm almost positive that customs doesn't enforce these contracts.  They enforce Copyright and patent laws, ensure that items are federally legal, and enforce import taxes (and probably some other stuff too).  If EK believes that another Topre or Leopold retailer / distributor is breaking the terms of their exclusive distribution contract, they can file a civil lawsuit and will most likely win with the contract on their side.  International law is complex, however, so a more likely solution would be EK calls Topre/Leopold and the offender's distribution rights get revoked.  A group buy, as long as no one is making a profit, is not a breach of any exclusive distribution contract, unless the items are purchased directly from an out-of-market vendor who has agreed not to distribute to your market.  A consumer proxy can do whatever they want once they have purchased something at retail, include ship the item to an end user in another market.  This is called grey market sales, is completely legal, and cannot be controlled by the manufacturer or vendors.  It is on the manufacturer and vendor to set prices closely across markets so that there isn't incentive for buyers to organize out-of-market group buys to save money, which according to EK's 660C price estimate happened successfully, therefore they have nothing to worry about after this GB is complete (but clearly they are sour that it's happening at all).

All EK had to do was NOT make threats and NOT violate GH rules; everything else they posted was useful information.  If they didn't decline to have a vendor forum, a place where they could inform us of upcoming products, this whole thing could have been avoided in the first place, as the only reason this GB is happening was because EK still hasn't stocked Leopold's most recently released keyboards and refuses to give their customers any info as to why, so there was concern they would do the same with the 660C. 

I'll reiterate, I don't know everything about exclusive distribution contracts and international business law, so take all this with a grain of salt.  I'll also mention that I don't agree with exclusive distribution contracts, they are a method of price control and are likely part of the reason Topre keyboards are so expensive. 

[Shadovved]

Based on this same logic, EK shouldn't have assumed that boost is ordering the GB keyboards directly from a Korean vendor (which would enable him to stop the GB) rather than having a Korean proxy buy the keyboards and ship them to us (which he has no control over). 

Again, I know ZERO about it, although everyone else seems to think they know everything about it.  I'll just shoot one word out there that might be a possibility:  Customs.

I don't think I know everything about exclusive distribution contracts, but I'm almost positive that customs doesn't enforce these contracts.  They enforce Copyright and patent laws, ensure that items are federally legal, and enforce import taxes (and probably some other stuff too).  If EK believes that another Topre or Leopold retailer / distributor is breaking the terms of their exclusive distribution contract, they can file a civil lawsuit and will most likely win with the contract on their side.  International law is complex, however, so a more likely solution would be EK calls Topre/Leopold and the offender's distribution rights get revoked.  A group buy, as long as no one is making a profit, is not a breach of any exclusive distribution contract, unless the items are purchased directly from an out-of-market vendor who has agreed not to distribute to your market.  A consumer proxy can do whatever they want once they have purchased something at retail, include ship the item to an end user in another market.  This is called grey market sales, is completely legal, and cannot be controlled by the manufacturer or vendors.  It is on the manufacturer and vendor to set prices closely across markets so that there isn't incentive for buyers to organize out-of-market group buys to save money, which according to EK's 660C price estimate happened successfully, therefore they have nothing to worry about after this GB is complete (but clearly they are sour that it's happening at all).

All EK had to do was NOT make threats and NOT violate GH rules; everything else they posted was useful information.  If they didn't decline to have a vendor forum, a place where they could inform us of upcoming products, this whole thing could have been avoided in the first place, as the only reason this GB is happening was because EK still hasn't stocked Leopold's most recently released keyboards and refuses to give their customers any info as to why, so there was concern they would do the same with the 660C. 

I'll reiterate, I don't know everything about exclusive distribution contracts and international business law, so take all this with a grain of salt.  I'll also mention that I don't agree with exclusive distribution contracts, they are a method of price control and are likely part of the reason Topre keyboards are so expensive.

Technically, you are right, but the point to note is that even if boost brought in a ****-ton of Leo keyboards for sale in direct competition with EK, EK is helpless

Cos being the distributor doesnt allow you monopoly, and parallel imports are perfectly legal

And exclusive distribution typically also come with the requirement to stock a certain product exclusively, so now we might want to ask why doesnt EK stock Filcos and other stuff, yknow

EDIT: take this with a grain of salt or two, as I am not really really sure how such stuff works in the US :9

[mkawa]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

[guilleguillaume]

Is quite funny to see how Brian tells you about the oportunity of purchasing the Leopold 660C in the next days and most of you get mad because he wrote it in a GB thread.

Group Buys are made to help the community getting items you wouldn't be able to get otherwise so where's the problem in Brian saying that he could get the keyboards cheaper, faster and with full warranty? I don't understand your point of view.

If anyone interested can get the keyboard faster and cheaper with warranty I don't see why would someone prefer to get one from a GB.

I'm really sure that if some EU folks were trying to get some Realforce keyboards and to name someone, Bruce was telling us that he could get those keyboards for cheaper price and faster no one would refuse the chance to get them trough a reputed seller like Keyboardco and save the trouble from purchasing outside EU.

I think there's to much hate in here. I don't see the problem in Brian letting us know that he will be carrying the keyboards. The only one angry about it might be Boost if he was runnning the GB for profit (I don't know that).

[Shadovved]

Is quite funny to see how Brian tells you about the oportunity of purchasing the Leopold 660C in the next days and most of you get mad because he wrote it in a GB thread.

Group Buys are made to help the community getting items you wouldn't be able to get otherwise so where's the problem in Brian saying that he could get the keyboards cheaper, faster and with full warranty? I don't understand your point of view.

If anyone interested can get the keyboard faster and cheaper with warranty I don't see why would someone prefer to get one from a GB.

I'm really sure that if some EU folks were trying to get some Realforce keyboards and to name someone, Bruce was telling us that he could get those keyboards for cheaper price and faster no one would refuse the chance to get them trough a reputed seller like Keyboardco and save the trouble from purchasing outside EU.

I think there's to much hate in here. I don't see the problem in Brian letting us know that he will be carrying the keyboards. The only one angry about it might be Boost if he was runnning the GB for profit (I don't know that).

I think most of them are angry about how he put across his point, instead of at the point itself.

We understand his kind motives behind sharing that information with us

[WRXChris]

Is quite funny to see how Brian tells you about the oportunity of purchasing the Leopold 660C in the next days and most of you get mad because he wrote it in a GB thread.

Group Buys are made to help the community getting items you wouldn't be able to get otherwise so where's the problem in Brian saying that he could get the keyboards cheaper, faster and with full warranty? I don't understand your point of view.

If anyone interested can get the keyboard faster and cheaper with warranty I don't see why would someone prefer to get one from a GB.

I'm really sure that if some EU folks were trying to get some Realforce keyboards and to name someone, Bruce was telling us that he could get those keyboards for cheaper price and faster no one would refuse the chance to get them trough a reputed seller like Keyboardco and save the trouble from purchasing outside EU.

I think there's to much hate in here. I don't see the problem in Brian letting us know that he will be carrying the keyboards. The only one angry about it might be Boost if he was runnning the GB for profit (I don't know that).

You're right there was nothing wrong with that, the issue is this:

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

So you're mistaken in saying that I am engaged in direct competition; when it comes to products that EK has exclusive distribution for in North America, there isn't any. I realize this probably sounds tyrannical, but this is how business works, it's pretty cut and dry.

EK thinks that they are above GH rules, and monopoly law doesn't apply to them.  Pitchforks were in order.

[Glod]

Pitchforks were in order.

pretty accurate there. honestly i'm surprised ek kept replying after the monster response he gave which is now the OP of this topic. if he didn't keep going then i doubt we would have our pitchforks out; ek knows not everyone here is a fan of him so of course there would be backlash for his reply, it should have been expected by him, no need to keep feeding the anger because it can only make things worse for his reputation and not better.

Although most of what he said in the OP, if not all of it, are facts, the fact he, as a vendor, posted it in the community organized and funded group buy section was a **** move and an insult to all community group buy organizers and participants. A good amount of us are not stupid participants of group buys, we know the risks, we have read the geek hack TOS for the group buy section and we ACCEPT the risks and terms, we don't need a vendor "reminding us" on reasons not to participate in a group buy. Carrying on with responses threatening to disrupt the group buy was just the nail on the coffin for many here.

I've ordered a few times from him; when i had a shipping problem his support was excellent. he is a trustworthy vendor in my eyes but If it wasn't for my personal good experience with him i would interpret his responses as a sign to stay away. Its going to take a while to overcome this PR blunder.

[metalliqaz]

Geekhack: Serious Business

[SmallFry]

Agreed 'Qaz. So... Epsilon 2.0, I suggest a 660C layout. We should do a GB and sell them at Techkeys. )

[ApocalypseMaow]

Agreed 'Qaz. So... Epsilon 2.0, I suggest a 660C layout. We should do a GB and sell them at Techkeys. )

Touché

[Larken]

All I actually saw in the thread was Elrick inciting crap against EK (I have no idea why, personal beef?) and qtan going off tangent about business morals and practices, a discussion that should've been taken somewhere else, perhaps pm.

EK actually makes a few valid and reasonable points, and is actually justified to defend his own position, albeit in a high-handed manner that no one likes (not saying that it's wrong, but its a dumb move cuz no one likes that crap).

The smart thing for him to do would've been to refuse to engage the two in the first place, after his first post, which I found no real problems with, although it could have been much shorter and could do without the whole 'this won't affect my business, so I don't care' attitude. There were a few insinuations that could have been interpreted either way, but he never did take a dump on Boost's credibility in the first place imo.

I understand why EK reacted the way he did. It's fine for someone to say that he trusts Boost alot. No problem. As far as boost is concerned, I think he seems like a great guy. But there was never any need to add in a comparison. 'I trust Boost 1000% more than Brian (EK)?'. I don't see any reason for a comparison, except to start a fight or just give a backhanded insult to someone.

Those with children would understand. "Oh your son is so cute." -> "Yea, he's about 1000% cuter than your daughter." If anyone doesn't take offense at that, I'd like to meet him/her.

Imo the drama was incited and aggravated by just two members, Elrick and qtan. EK responded to them in a way that would rub the rest of the community the wrong way.

[demik]

All I actually saw in the thread was Elrick inciting crap against EK (I have no idea why, personal beef?) and qtan going off tangent about business morals and practices, a discussion that should've been taken somewhere else, perhaps pm.

EK actually makes a few valid and reasonable points, and is actually justified to defend his own position, albeit in a high-handed manner that no one likes (not saying that it's wrong, but its a dumb move cuz no one likes that crap).

The smart thing for him to do would've been to refuse to engage the two in the first place, after his first post, which I found no real problems with, although it could have been much shorter and could do without the whole 'this won't affect my business, so I don't care' attitude. There were a few insinuations that could have been interpreted either way, but he never did take a dump on Boost's credibility in the first place imo.

I understand why EK reacted the way he did. It's fine for someone to say that he trusts Boost alot. No problem. As far as boost is concerned, I think he seems like a great guy. But there was never any need to add in a comparison. 'I trust Boost 1000% more than Brian (EK)?'. I don't see any reason for a comparison, except to start a fight or just give a backhanded insult to someone.

Those with children would understand. "Oh your son is so cute." -> "Yea, he's about 1000% cuter than your daughter." If anyone doesn't take offense at that, I'd like to meet him/her.

Imo the drama was incited and aggravated by just two members, Elrick and qtan. EK responded to them in a way that would rub the rest of the community the wrong way.

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

[tjcaustin]

All I actually saw in the thread was Elrick inciting crap against EK (I have no idea why, personal beef?) and qtan going off tangent about business morals and practices, a discussion that should've been taken somewhere else, perhaps pm.

EK actually makes a few valid and reasonable points, and is actually justified to defend his own position, albeit in a high-handed manner that no one likes (not saying that it's wrong, but its a dumb move cuz no one likes that crap).

The smart thing for him to do would've been to refuse to engage the two in the first place, after his first post, which I found no real problems with, although it could have been much shorter and could do without the whole 'this won't affect my business, so I don't care' attitude. There were a few insinuations that could have been interpreted either way, but he never did take a dump on Boost's credibility in the first place imo.

I understand why EK reacted the way he did. It's fine for someone to say that he trusts Boost alot. No problem. As far as boost is concerned, I think he seems like a great guy. But there was never any need to add in a comparison. 'I trust Boost 1000% more than Brian (EK)?'. I don't see any reason for a comparison, except to start a fight or just give a backhanded insult to someone.

Those with children would understand. "Oh your son is so cute." -> "Yea, he's about 1000% cuter than your daughter." If anyone doesn't take offense at that, I'd like to meet him/her.

Imo the drama was incited and aggravated by just two members, Elrick and qtan. EK responded to them in a way that would rub the rest of the community the wrong way.

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

^

[Michael]

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

I am very sorry to have to inform you of this, but I agree 100%

[TreeSc2]

Nevermind the 600c im still waiting for elitekeyboards to get the 700r! Its been forever, and ive contacted them numerous times. I feel like all these sites that u can get keyboards from NEVER have what you want in stock so you have to venture elsewhere and spend a fortune OR take a chance with a private seller.

[dante]

What is EK going to do?  Contact Park Geun-hye and ask her to do him a solid?

If Brian was as consistent with communication as say ShakeR/Rajiv/Carter/TechKeys this situation would have never happened.

[EZjiji]

Meh, all this drama could have been prevented if Brian just posted on GH when he got them in. People would have pulled out anyway. GP already canceled.

[tsangan]

First and foremost, I would like to say I've dealt with Brain/EK in the past MANY times and he's always able to assist regarding any issues, Brain/EK does deserve a tad more respect then we give him to be honest. There has always been a love hate relationship with EK ever since I heard about them.

For this next part, I didn't follow this thread completely so please do correct me if I am wrong.

I think this specific post was kind of uncalled for

You're right, I'm not a common member, therefore the common member rules do not apply to me in the case of group buys...particularly this GB. Why not? Because this group buy goes forward because I allow it to. If I want to to stop it; I just make a phone call.

Of course I'm not sure if someone angered him for him to post it in such a way but like a few other members have said it definitely does not look good.

In the end I think all the members here just wanted the keyboard regardless of if its coming from a GB or from EK. If there was a tad more communications of course that would be great but we do have to consider that EK is not ran by a lot of people.

Also if this was made as an announcement/Leopold 660C at EliteKeyboards thread I don't think people would have an issue at all, it's the original post by Brian that kinda set the tone that buying via EK is better, instead of "oh look guys we're carrying this soon!" Kind of took the excitement and joy of new product and made it more negative.

[qtan5370]

Nevermind the 600c im still waiting for elitekeyboards to get the 700r! Its been forever, and ive contacted them numerous times. I feel like all these sites that u can get keyboards from NEVER have what you want in stock so you have to venture elsewhere and spend a fortune OR take a chance with a private seller.

Well, 700R is exclusive to Korean market. However, I am consider carry a few of them. I am in Seoul and just have to check out the shipping part before I can start selling some leopold product. 

BTW, I never consider that discussing business law, contract or what here in the topic. I drop in because I want to check the supply and demand of Leopold, than I see EK possibly break the rule and also he start branch marking all GB runners (well, he changed it later by modifying the post) that make me feel I have to speak out. 

Also, if your a businessman you will understand even you can win (and I don't think they can, however, debate remain open, I can see good point for  both sides) a lawsuit to stop international seller selling product to place you have exclusive right, on average it takes 2 year to do so, cost you a lot of money, and the chance you getting anything is very little. The enforcement also very hard. Almost no one would try it for such small amount of sell.     

[demik]

me thinks you should worry about your own business.

[dante]

Well, 700R is exclusive to Korean market. However, I am consider carry a few of them. I am in Seoul and just have to check out the shipping part before I can start selling some leopold product.

Australia has had the 700R for more than 6 months [11 months after the release in Korea] so availability from Leopold is not an issue.  The only other thing that might spook Brian is quality - which is probably something he can't talk about.

EK keeps running out of the FC200R so what the hell do I know?

[RickyJ]

tl;dr elrick is an annoying kiss ass.

Yup, nice to see someone's evident grudge ruin a situation. Also glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I didn't know that the FC700 was exclusive to the Korean market, perhaps Brian should have responded to requests by saying that instead of "ignoring" them? I can understand that people wouldn't think he'd bring in the 660 series (I sure didn't, but am glad he is), but wish he announced it better. I'm also curious if he's going to bring in the MX version as well.

A sad situation that could have been avoided.

[elitekeyboards]

Yup, nice to see someone's evident grudge ruin a situation. Also glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I didn't know that the FC700 was exclusive to the Korean market, perhaps Brian should have responded to requests by saying that instead of "ignoring" them? I can understand that people wouldn't think he'd bring in the 660 series (I sure didn't, but am glad he is), but wish he announced it better. I'm also curious if he's going to bring in the MX version as well.

A sad situation that could have been avoided.

FC700 isn't exclusive to the Korean market. And I don't ignore emails inquiring about them, I give all the information I can at the time. Don't believe everything you read on the internet...

[Jocelyn]

Any idea if the FC660C will ever be available in other colors; white and/or gray?

[VesperSAINT]

Any idea if the FC660C will ever be available in other colors; white and/or gray?

+1

Also very interested in this!

[elitekeyboards]

Any idea if the FC660C will ever be available in other colors; white and/or gray?

The retail box has a checkbox printed on it for both black and white boards, so we can assume there is some intention to make a white board, but nothing has been announced from Leopold Korea yet.

[Jocelyn]

The retail box has a checkbox printed on it for both black and white boards, so we can assume there is some intention to make a white board, but nothing has been announced from Leopold Korea yet.

I understand that doesn't guarantee anything, but Thank You for the very interesting tidbit

[VesperSAINT]

That definitely does bring a sliver of hope to meh

[elitekeyboards]

To anyone disturbed by my, admittedly unruly, post a few days ago...

I want to apologize for any offenses I made, but, as I will explain, I was a bit irritated by the existence of the FC660C GB; on GH of all places.

I tried to be as pleasant as I could be in my first post. After that I think I must have been very tired when I broke my rule of arguing with people on the internet! Namely qtan, as I wasn't trying to make threats or sound arrogant; definitely came across that way though.

Well, prdlm2009 questioned my professional courtesies...and the fact that EK is the exclusive Leopold reseller in the US is very well known, so for a moderator of GH to just ignore this fact pretty much throws the whole GB out the window from the get-go. I think it is fair to say that in order for boost to be deserving of any professional courtesies, he would have to have acted towards me professionally before he decided to have a group buy for 40+ keyboards. Buying 3 or 4 for your friends is one thing, but the 42+ he was proposing to order is reseller territory. Heck, the first order of FILCOs sold on EK 4 years ago was only 40 units!

I feel respecting our customers is the most important thing we can do. This is why I'm very careful about what I sell, as I do not want to represent a product that can't live up to customer expectations. For the same reason I'm sensitive about other people representing our products. EK has spent a considerable amount of time and money over the last couple of years to make Leopold a respected name. Now I might be mistaken, but it *appeared* boost thought he'd ride those coattails and make a quick buck.

Anyways, I'm not surprised by the backlash from the community about my comments. I know, some people have assumed the worst of my intentions; but I hope everyone can understand that I have longer term plans and bigger sights set than destroying GBs for 40 keyboard sales.

Brian

[esoomenona]

So if anyone wants to perform a GB for Leopolds, regardless of the fact that they'll never be sold by the "sole" reseller of them in the US (i.e. 700R), they can't because you're the only one who can? That's ridiculous. Who knows what you'll pick and choose to sell, and you can't stop a GB from happening, because it isn't resale.

[MJ45]

I am a relatively new GH member and keyboard enthusiast but I have learned pretty quick that people can become upset when it comes their keyboards. I have done business with both EK and qtan5370 and will again, and they both have a valid points. Its their its their bread & butter and get us what we desire. But I think the whole thing got blown out of proportion. With all the supposed interest in the FC660C it hasn't even sold out yet.

[IPT]

So if anyone wants to perform a GB for Leopolds, regardless of the fact that they'll never be sold by the "sole" reseller of them in the US (i.e. 700R), they can't because you're the only one who can? That's ridiculous. Who knows what you'll pick and choose to sell, and you can't stop a GB from happening, because it isn't resale.

however for such a large quantity to be sold at once, you're going through some sort of distributor.
With EK saying he has the exclusive contract with Leopold, if he was to choose to, im sure he can call up his sales contact at leopold and inquire about what local retailer all of a sudden increased their keyboard order for the FC660.  You may wonder why Leopold would even bother to answer his inquiry.  It's because he most likely has a specific Contact quota he's required to purchase per year, so whether his keyboards sell or not, he still has to buy the stock from Leopold.
So to maintain that sales contract, his Leopold Sales agent will definitely get involved.

Also just a little insight regarding shipping and US Customs:  If you are a corporation with a US Customs annual bond, then you will have a lot easier time importing goods through US Customs than if you're an individual importing large quantities of goods on a single entry bond.  these type of shipments attract more attention from US Customs than corporations.  They always require documents to be files for inspection/review for single entry bonds.

Also with EK's "lifespan", US Customs already knows what he imports, and he's under less scrutiny as again he has a record of importing these types of goods.

Im not saying what's right or wrong in terms of Brian's attitude or postings here on GH.  Personally i think way worst behavior/BM postings happen than his posts.

Either way, i wouldn't hesitate to do business with EK in the future, currently considering getting a 660C.
And lets be honest, the 1st chance they'll have CC's available again, im sure all these people who say they won't deal with EK will be pressing F5 the fastest they can lol.

[mkawa]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

[IPT]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

i don't disagree with you, i was just stating why he may actually be able to do what he said.
your forum, your rules ofcourse
my comment was more a tangent of how supplier/reseller relationship would be.

[elitekeyboards]

I'm not sure what to think about that response; I've never had an issue ek and I'll buy from him again but buddy your response kind of sort of comes off as an insult to boost, at least from my perspective that is

So if anyone wants to perform a GB for Leopolds, regardless of the fact that they'll never be sold by the "sole" reseller of them in the US (i.e. 700R), they can't because you're the only one who can? That's ridiculous. Who knows what you'll pick and choose to sell, and you can't stop a GB from happening, because it isn't resale.

The biggest concern is brand reputation. We filter most of the products we import, particularly the ones made in China and Taiwan, and usually specify higher-quality components and cables for our boards. This is part of what we do to ensure a good customer experience. When we first started selling FILCO keyboards we found 10 boards in every 100 that had controller issues, key coating issues, LED issues, stabilizer squeaks, and chattering issues. We tested every single board to deal with this. No lemons leaving our warehouse is part of the reason FILCO gained such a good reputation. The MJ2 implemented a lot of changes we requested.

Recently I've heard rumor of possible counterfeiting of Leopold and FILCO products in China; so such an unchecked dubious product entering the hands of a group of outspoken keyboard enthusiasts is somewhat concerning for a small business like EK.

I have less concern of same-model competitors in this market, but for models we do not carry would it be too much to ask that any GB runner on GH contacted us about it? Isn't our willingness to accommodate GH'ers over the years worth at least that respect? Likely my answers would be either:

1. Who is the source? Followed by "Sure go ahead" or "Bad idea".
2. We'll be selling that model around this date and probably at a better price than you can. You might reconsider.

Going around our back would mean that a distributor in another country is breaking his/her distribution contract; either directly or indirectly. And Leopold won't take lightly to it.

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

What does GH exist for? EK and many other small businesses have grown out of GBs on GH. Are you arguing that these small businesses do the community no good and should not be respected? I'm not asking for protection of market share, that's my job, I'm asking for respect for our hard work and the reputation of our products.

I think it's in the interest of GH'ers to support businesses that grew out of GH. We have the willingness to pay for products and costly tooling the community can never afford as well as create better feedback and communication with manufacturers.

[o2dazone]

A lot of heat around this. I'm glad EK is around. Thanks to Brian, I don't have to talk to broken English couriers to get my hands on boards and accessories across seas. I also don't have the time or patience to have my money tied up in a flimsy group buy. EK provides this service as a premium, and I'm pretty confident in saying I'm not the only one who will pay for this service. Stop thinking one-dimensionally. If someones business model is being damaged by free market, then maybe it's time to get a better business model.

[Acetrak]

With regards to counterfeiting, I think they're made in Korea
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33130.msg863549#msg863549

[eth0s]

i just want to make it clear the elitekeyboards is a common member. everyone here is. this is a community. no one is so important that they can break the rules with impunity. i don't care what you sell or how many phone calls you can make. no one on the 100% volunteer moderation and administration team cares when it comes to enforcing our forums' rules.

GH does not exist to protect any vendor or non-vendor's market share, period. EK is wrong and will be receiving this exact same information in a PM shortly. We are currently considering whether punitive action will be appropriate for future outbursts in the style of the one that caused this thread split.

I have to say I totally disagree with any punitive action.  There should be none.  In fact any punitive action against anyone in this thread would be an abuse of power, and a serious mistake.  This is a forum for discussing keyboards.  Keyboards were discussed.  Things got heated:  true.  Feelings got hurt: true.  People were upset:  true.  But, there was no abusive language, no racism, no personal attacks.  Basically, a heated discussion happened on a forum.  Which is what forums are supposed to be for.  Now, with that said, EK Brian acted like a royal d!ckhead with his comment that he could stop Boost's GB with one phone call.  It was a d!cky thing to say, but it also happens to be true.  There were many better ways to say the same thing.  But he chose the d!icky way.  Is that worthy of punishment?  No.  Why?  Because you have to look at his motivation and his intent.  He was not intending to hurt anybody, he was trying to protect his exclusive right to sell Leopold keyboards.  He signed an exclusive distributorship agreement with Leopold.  As such, he has the right under the contract to stop the GB, or even worse, he has the right to bring a lawsuit against Boost to permanently enjoin him from selling or attempting to sell Leopold keyboards anywhere in the United States.  At least he didn't threaten to do that. 

So in conclusion, you cannot punish someone for asserting their lawful right to enforce their exclusive distributorship, even if he did it in a non-courteous manner.  Many people here obviously do not like the idea that EK Brian has the exclusive right to sell Leopold keyboards in the US.  However, that is the law, and that is our capitalist system.  He got the contract, and that's it.  You can like it or lump it.  But you can't change it.  It is not the fault of EK Brian or Leopold.  They are doing what capitalists do, find a niche to make money, and then set out to protect their niche to make money.  I would have counselled EK Brian to handle things differently, but then again, it's his right to handle it how he wants.  Although it looks like he regrets the way he handled it.  Anyway, I would strongly object to any punishment. 

[aggiejy]

All I know is I drink the hell out of Mexican Coke here in Texas.  The bottlers here hate it and have tried to sue a few different parties to stop it.  Coke themselves have tried to stop it.  Yet, it's at every gas station I go to, it's at Sam's and it's at Costco.  It's imported to the US from Mexico and sold openly through a distributor that has no Coke contract.  Coke can't stop it, they can just threaten the bottler in Mexico.  That bottler says they don't sell to the distributor.  So the distributor is buying it from another distributor in Mexico. 

Coke doesn't like it and says/wants it to be illegal.  Yet, I've been buying it for over 5 years now... if anything it's more popular than ever before.

(It has real sugar... not high fructose corn syrup)

[VesperSAINT]

All I know is I drink the hell out of Mexican Coke here in Texas.  The bottlers here hate it and have tried to sue a few different parties to stop it.  Coke themselves have tried to stop it.  Yet, it's at every gas station I go to, it's at Sam's and it's at Costco.  It's imported to the US from Mexico and sold openly through a distributor that has no Coke contract.  Coke can't stop it, they can just threaten the bottler in Mexico.  That bottler says they don't sell to the distributor.  So the distributor is buying it from another distributor in Mexico. 

Coke doesn't like it and says/wants it to be illegal.  Yet, I've been buying it for over 5 years now... if anything it's more popular than ever before.

(It has real sugar... not high fructose corn syrup)

This post had me giggling because I know what he's talking about.

On another note, I hope that Leopold brings out the White/Beige and EK gets them so I can get my hands on one.

[daerid]

Mexican Coke > US Coke

Please don't misconstrue that as an allegory for the situation in this thread. It's meant very literally.

After a few PMs with Brian, I understand where he's coming from a bit more clearly. I may disagree with the level of professionalism displayed in the way he communicated his stance, but that's his choice and his right. He's running a business in a niche market, and I can imagine it can be very stressful, and after all he's human just like the rest of us.

If you don't like what he's doing, vote with your wallet, don't waste your breath beating a dead horse here on GH.

[Halverson]

I want Mexican coke...in Canada.

[IPT]

I want Mexican coke...in Canada.

neva!
all your coke are belong to us! (yes i butchered the meme on purpose)

[VesperSAINT]

Dem bottles are so beautiful.

[aggiejy]

Mexican Coke > US Coke

Please don't misconstrue that as an allegory for the situation in this thread. It's meant very literally.

Agreed, I don't mean to draw an exact parallel.  I'm expressing no opinion on this situation... I haven't kept up with it entirely.  But the allegory was more in response to eth0s' comment that an exclusive agreement with a manufacturer is always cut and dry.  In the case of Coke, bottlers have exclusive territories and they take it VERY seriously.  But as demonstrated if you read up on the Mexican Coke situation, the contract between Coke and the bottlers isn't binding to the importer.  The importer has no contract with either.  The bottler sues Coke over it, not the importer.  (Which they'd like to do as well, but don't have grounds!)

Again, I'm not drawing a comparison to Boost here as I don't know the details, but in general I think some people's interpretation of contract law might be slightly off base.

[elitekeyboards]

@EK

1.Your distribution contract with Leopold applies to individuals importing keyboards? I find that hard to believe. I can see why you have concerns but clearly you felt threatened and IMO went about this the wrong way. You'll find you catch more flies with honey.

No one said distribution contracts apply to individuals. Each country has a Leopold distributor and we each are supposed to respect other country's distributorship. I think you're falling into the same pattern of thinking that many do in thinking EK is just a left to right distributor selling some majorly marketed consumer product. This is not the case; it's a very small network of dealers and there isn't anywhere to hide.

2.What does GH exist for? Well it sure doesn't exist just so people can make money off of it. GH was here with an active community long before the majority of these new businesses.

Given that a moderator was running a GB wherein he didn't state his purchase price, the strong protectiveness of the GB rules, and the threat of "punitive action" from mkawa for a repeated GB upset; some might consider GH is about money.

I was a member here before any of these companies, including EK, existed. I wanted to make hard to obtain products that the GH community desired regularly available and I cannot begin to account for the time I spent here in the first couple years of business trying to cater directly to the community's concerns and desires. I don't remember things being like this...

One would think you would be more grateful to us instead of the other way around. You get free referrals through search engine results, posts, threads, etc which directly benefit you. But what have you done directly to help keep the site running?

I am very grateful, that is why I try to be honest and straightforward with people here. Your purchases keep the business running, and given my unhealthy penchant for quality, I'd like to think the existence of EK is a good (and grateful) thing for everyone.

Long ago I offered Imav support, but he declined. I've considered offering again over the years, but feared there would be screaming in the streets.

On a side note I'd really like to see what a counterfeit Topre board is like

*Disclaimer: This is my personal view and in no way reflects the views of the staff in general.

I don't believe one exists, but MX boards are not a stretch of anyone's ability.

[Acetrak]

2.What does GH exist for? Well it sure doesn't exist just so people can make money off of it. GH was here with an active community long before the majority of these new businesses.

Given that a moderator was running a GB wherein he didn't state his purchase price, the strong protectiveness of the GB rules, and the threat of "punitive action" from mkawa for a repeated GB upset; some might consider GH is about money.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42728.msg877481#msg877481