If the first Ergodox thumb key were moved slightly closer in (to where there’s currently an awkward gap) would it work for you? Or do you think it would be better to also change the height/orientation of the thumb keys, not just the 2D position?
Alternately, would just changing the height of the keys help? For instance, putting a couple of SA-profile keycaps on the thumb keys (with lower profile caps on the other keys) might be some improvement.
Does reaching for the further thumb keys occasionally also cause you problems, or is it just mainly the need to frequently hit space that’s an issue?
For instance, would a layout along the lines of this work, assuming the key directly below the 'N'/'B' could be used for space?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/NR7llDo.png)
Have you tried a Maltron ever? The thumb keys seem much better placed/oriented than the Ergodox, for my hands.
Are you keeping an eye on Jesse’s (Obra’s) keyboard.io startup, or the upcoming Matias ErgoPro?
Using the ErgoDox thumb clusters (even just the closest vertical button, which I used for the space bar), required me to extend my thumb ever so slightly. This constant extending of the thumb eventually caused that tendon to just start screaming in pain. It was only my right thumb because that's the only hand I use to hit the space bar.
A standard keyboard, as well as the ergodox, kinesis, maltron rely mainly on the main direction of carpometacarpal movement. Of these, I haven’t tried a Maltron, but in making prototypes of my own with plastilina and cardboard, and from just holding loose switches in one hand with the other hand sitting in a neutral position and trying to press them, I believe that the Maltron has the best angle for taking advantage of the natural direction of motion for the strongest type of thumb motion. The Kinesis Advantage is in my opinion is a less effective angle, and the ergodox has a still less effective angle.
Oobly’s DIY keyboard, for example, relies on a different, inward movement of the carpometacarpal, plus an assist from the metacarpophalangeal joint. This is in my experience a less easy/powerful joint movement, but he gets away with it by having all the keys very easy to reach, which more than makes up the difference compared to the poor placement of Ergodox thumb keys.
Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible, and (b) reaching all the keys is easy and natural is a quite non-trivial problem. And figuring out something that will work for very large or very small hands is difficult indeed.
It's experiences like this that are pushing me further towards making my ergo board into a product.
The ErgoDox was a step in the right direction, but not nearly far enough. Tenting should be part of the package, pinkie column should be staggered more, thumb clusters should be more compact, angled and repositioned.
The thumb clusters on my design are primarily based on allowing the thumb to be at a natural rest position while typing and using adduction / abduction for positioning and flexion for pressing, whereas most "flat" boards require the thumb to be in extension at rest, position with extension / flexion (and sometimes ALSO twisting the wrist to move "up" or "down") and press with abduction while extended. The movements don't really correspond 1:1 with muscle and tendon groups and particular joints and their movement abilities and limits, but only define movement directions with respect to the rest of the hand / wrist. Still, long term testing is showing lots of promise for my cluster design. The movements required are small and don't require tension to be introduced in awkward ways.
I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here, but this is what jacobolus has said about thumb movements in the Nexus / Axios thread:QuoteA standard keyboard, as well as the ergodox, kinesis, maltron rely mainly on the main direction of carpometacarpal movement. Of these, I haven’t tried a Maltron, but in making prototypes of my own with plastilina and cardboard, and from just holding loose switches in one hand with the other hand sitting in a neutral position and trying to press them, I believe that the Maltron has the best angle for taking advantage of the natural direction of motion for the strongest type of thumb motion. The Kinesis Advantage is in my opinion is a less effective angle, and the ergodox has a still less effective angle.
Oobly’s DIY keyboard, for example, relies on a different, inward movement of the carpometacarpal, plus an assist from the metacarpophalangeal joint. This is in my experience a less easy/powerful joint movement, but he gets away with it by having all the keys very easy to reach, which more than makes up the difference compared to the poor placement of Ergodox thumb keys.
Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible, and (b) reaching all the keys is easy and natural is a quite non-trivial problem. And figuring out something that will work for very large or very small hands is difficult indeed.
I still have to really study the joints, ligaments and muscles governing thumb movement and who knows, I may change the thumb cluster design again then, but for now it seems to be at the very least a big improvement over what's on the market at the moment and if it can help people to type more comfortably and with less chance of long term damage it'll be worth getting it out there.
...or just separate thumb-cluster modules. Angled clusters would allow inward instead of awkward vertical motion.
The Kinesis Advantage also overloads the thumb keys in the same way as the ErgoDox. Anyone have a similar or different experience with it?I don’t have any extensive experience typing on a Maltron or a Kinesis Advantage (about 10 minutes with the Maltron, about a day with the Kinesis, vs. a couple weeks full time with the Ergodox), but just from a bit of playing with one, I think the Maltron does rather better than either the Ergodox or the Kinesis Advantage.
That's certainly one part of the story. The other one is the spacebar shape/profile. I had my thumb hurt on some rubber domes, because of sharp edges of the keycaps and having to press them with the edge of a fingernail.
After using the Maltron for awhile at work, and then switching to the Maltron, I am starting to wonder which one I prefer more. The Maltron obviously has a more ergonomic design and a near perfect layout. The advantage of the Ergodox is the programmability and more solid feel. I really do not like owning both, so I am on the fence about which to get rid of.
I found that my thumbs would naturally rest on the space (and backspace) bars closer to my hand than the outermost 2u key on the thumb clusters, and that's where my thumbs would normally push downwards for space (and backspace) on the TECK or any other keyboard. After that, I moved space (and backspace) to the innermost key on the lowest row - where most people would put the arrow keys or some other non-alpha keys. To me (and my hands) this is the most natural position for space (and backspace).I suspect that the further-away thumb keys are uncomfortable even for those with large hands, and also that the weird little gap between the thumb section and the main section is pretty easy for most everyone to type.
After using the Maltron for awhile at work, and then switching to the Maltron, I am starting to wonder which one I prefer more. The Maltron obviously has a more ergonomic design and a near perfect layout. The advantage of the Ergodox is the programmability and more solid feel. I really do not like owning both, so I am on the fence about which to get rid of.
There has to be some third party software available to allow you to remap your keys on the maltron (a generic application that that works with all input). You gotta stick with the one that is most physically comfortable IMO, and force it's programming to do your bidding. Plus, isn't the maltron all wires in the back that can be somewhat easily moved from one key to another with some soldering? not that that would help with layers...
I suspect that (assuming we want to stick to the constraints of 2 flat halves and a finger section with staggered columns all aligned and tightly packed), then something like this might be sufficient (or if it needs broad appeal, perhaps also with a number row):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/k0QIpJV.png)
...
The way I intend to approximate this in my own DIY keyboard (a flat model intended to be portable) is by having a thumb "meta-modifier" key on each hand, which turns all the home-row keys on the same hand into modifier keys (command, option, shift, control, etc.). On a hand-wired full 3d desk-bound keyboard, I can just copy the DataStealth approach.
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The way I intend to approximate this in my own DIY keyboard (a flat model intended to be portable) is by having a thumb "meta-modifier" key on each hand, which turns all the home-row keys on the same hand into modifier keys (command, option, shift, control, etc.). On a hand-wired full 3d desk-bound keyboard, I can just copy the DataStealth approach.
I am interested in how you then press a modifier plus the key character you are using for the modifier? Let's say you use A as Ctrl, how do you press Ctrl-A?So, under that scheme, with a QWERTY-ish layout, you’d press the meta-modifier key with the right thumb + e.g. the right middle finger home row position (for “control”) + the 'a' key using the left hand pinky finger.
I agree that it's a great time for keyboard innovation right now and look forward to seeing the Axios and Keyboardio designs becoming products.
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The way I intend to approximate this in my own DIY keyboard (a flat model intended to be portable) is by having a thumb "meta-modifier" key on each hand, which turns all the home-row keys on the same hand into modifier keys (command, option, shift, control, etc.). On a hand-wired full 3d desk-bound keyboard, I can just copy the DataStealth approach.I am interested in how you then press a modifier plus the key character you are using for the modifier? Let's say you use A as Ctrl, how do you press Ctrl-A?So, under that scheme, with a QWERTY-ish layout, you’d press the meta-modifier key with the right thumb + e.g. the right middle finger home row position (for “control”) + the 'a' key using the left hand pinky finger.
I agree that it's a great time for keyboard innovation right now and look forward to seeing the Axios and Keyboardio designs becoming products.
Also, I’d recommend someone pick whichever of those 3 1x1.5 thumb keys in my drawing their thumb most naturally rests on to be the spacebar (which might vary from person to person), and then use the other keys for whatever else they like (shift, backspace, enter, some letter key, fn, whatever..).
You’re proposing adding modifier keys which take moving the whole hand to use; personally I wouldn’t want to use such a setup if I could help it; indeed, I think it’s one of the biggest flaws with current keyboards.
This entire thread was preciptated by someone injured using a 1u spacebar. Three 1u spacebars doesn't really sound like a solution. What if the most comfortable spot is exactly between two of them? Which one do I press?I don’t think there’s anyone whose range of “comfortable spots” is smaller than 10mm of movement either direction.
There's nothing wrong with moving your whole hand -- as long as the targets are big and in a natural position.The problem is not moving your hand from time to time. The problem is moving your hand back and forth in an awkward and very specific way, over and over and over again in an identical pattern throughout the day, and trying to do it quickly. It ends up being both uncomfortable and very inefficient.
In fact, I think you're increasing your risk of injury by *not* moving your hand periodically. You're overloading a smaller group of muscles, whereas what you should be doing is spreading the work around as much as possible.
There's nothing wrong with moving your whole hand -- as long as the targets are big and in a natural position.The problem is not moving your hand from time to time. The problem is moving your hand back and forth in an awkward and very specific way, over and over and over again in an identical pattern throughout the day, and trying to do it quickly. It ends up being both uncomfortable and very inefficient.
In fact, I think you're increasing your risk of injury by *not* moving your hand periodically. You're overloading a smaller group of muscles, whereas what you should be doing is spreading the work around as much as possible.
Just to clarify: I’m not mainly talking about the spacebar here. I’m talking about moving the right hand over to the arrow keys and back, or reaching up to the delete key, or contorting the hand to type some 3-modifier shortcut, etc.There's nothing wrong with moving your whole hand -- as long as the targets are big and in a natural position.The problem is not moving your hand from time to time. The problem is moving your hand back and forth in an awkward and very specific way, over and over and over again in an identical pattern throughout the day, and trying to do it quickly. It ends up being both uncomfortable and very inefficient.
In fact, I think you're increasing your risk of injury by *not* moving your hand periodically. You're overloading a smaller group of muscles, whereas what you should be doing is spreading the work around as much as possible.
And space is THE most frequent character typed. It has to be in the most convenient spot. Moving your hand to press it is, IMO, not acceptable.
The problem is not moving your hand from time to time. The problem is moving your hand back and forth in an awkward and very specific way, over and over and over again in an identical pattern throughout the day, and trying to do it quickly. It ends up being both uncomfortable and very inefficient.
There's nothing wrong with moving your whole hand -- as long as the targets are big and in a natural position.
In fact, I think you're increasing your risk of injury by *not* moving your hand periodically. You're overloading a smaller group of muscles, whereas what you should be doing is spreading the work around as much as possible.
And space is THE most frequent character typed. It has to be in the most convenient spot. Moving your hand to press it is, IMO, not acceptable.
Just to clarify: I’m not mainly talking about the spacebar here. I’m talking about moving the right hand over to the arrow keys and back, or reaching up to the delete key, or contorting the hand to type some 3-modifier shortcut, etc.
A standard keyboard has, in my opinion, an extremely inefficient and inconvenient layout, and I think it should be possible to make a keyboard which doesn’t require these kinds of motions ever.
IMO the most frequently typed key should be wider than 1u. Big targests are easy to press. The most frequent key should be easy to press.If the target is already under your finger, the size doesn’t matter too much. As has been mentioned upthread, the main reason to make a key expected to be used by the thumbs big is to accommodate a variety of hand sizes and positions, not to make it an easier target to find per se.
If the target is already under your finger, the size doesn’t matter too much. As has been mentioned upthread, the main reason to make a key expected to be used by the thumbs big is to accommodate a variety of hand sizes and positions, not to make it an easier target to find per se.
The critical design constraint is making sure that there’s *some* key directly under someone’s thumb; if there are 3-4 thumb keys next to each other, then that should be true for people with various hand sizes, even if it’s not always the same key.
On a keyboard without programmable firmware, I agree the spacebar needs to be bigger.
I'm using a TECK right now and I find myself using my index finger for most of the middle keys. and thumb on the space bars. I'm not sure how that will translate over to the ErgoDox.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. The 4 fingers on each hand are fairly similar in orientation and motion when it comes to striking the keys. The thumbs are kind of the odd-man out, and generally (from my experience) not very uniform in the motions made to hit the space bar. I know that when I type, especially when I'm really cranking, I don't always hit the space bar in the same spot, and my hand's not changing size. For me, and probably quite a few others, having a wider spacebar for both hands is beneficial in that you can hit it with your thumb no matter where your thumb happens to be while typing.Interesting. Do you always use the same thumb on the spacebar, or do you alternate? How wide do you think the spacebar would have to be to accommodate your typing, assuming a key to be hit by just one hand? Is 1.5 units wide enough? 2 units? What about a 1.5x1.5 square? If the Ergodox 1x2 thumb keys were moved toward the finger sections (to require less reaching for your thumbs) but kept in their current orientation, you still think you’d find them ineffective as spacebars?
Interesting. Do you always use the same thumb on the spacebar, or do you alternate? How wide do you think the spacebar would have to be to accommodate your typing, assuming a key to be hit by just one hand? Is 1.5 units wide enough? 2 units? What about a 1.5x1.5 square? If the Ergodox 1x2 thumb keys were moved toward the finger sections (to require less reaching for your thumbs) but kept in their current orientation, you still think you’d find them ineffective as spacebars?
So, something like a 2x1 spacebar (i.e. 2 units wide) would probably be sufficient, if it were put in the right spot?Interesting. Do you always use the same thumb on the spacebar, or do you alternate? How wide do you think the spacebar would have to be to accommodate your typing, assuming a key to be hit by just one hand? Is 1.5 units wide enough? 2 units? What about a 1.5x1.5 square? If the Ergodox 1x2 thumb keys were moved toward the finger sections (to require less reaching for your thumbs) but kept in their current orientation, you still think you’d find them ineffective as spacebars?
Generally I use the right thumb for hitting the space. Unless I'm gaming (obv). I could probably lose about 1x worth of space on either side and not notice it.
Yeah, I think this is the theory behind the shape of the spacebars on Maltron/Kinesis/Ergodox. But it sounds like they might benefit from being both tall *and* wide.
Thought I'd post another data point in the on-going Spacebar debate...
I found this slide during my literature search, leading up to the 2nd redesign of the Ergo Pro. While it states "wide spacebar", what they really mean "tall spacebar".
Thought I'd post another data point in the on-going Spacebar debate...
I found this slide during my literature search, leading up to the 2nd redesign of the Ergo Pro. While it states "wide spacebar", what they really mean "tall spacebar".
Yeah, I think this is the theory behind the shape of the spacebars on Maltron/Kinesis/Ergodox. But it sounds like they benefit from being both tall *and* wide.
As soon as I can get my hands on some of those sweet new Matias keycaps, I might try making a tiny minimal keyboard something like:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Bgfxmuo.png)
So, something like a 2x1 spacebar (i.e. 2 units wide) would probably be sufficient, if it were put in the right spot?Interesting. Do you always use the same thumb on the spacebar, or do you alternate? How wide do you think the spacebar would have to be to accommodate your typing, assuming a key to be hit by just one hand? Is 1.5 units wide enough? 2 units? What about a 1.5x1.5 square? If the Ergodox 1x2 thumb keys were moved toward the finger sections (to require less reaching for your thumbs) but kept in their current orientation, you still think you’d find them ineffective as spacebars?
Generally I use the right thumb for hitting the space. Unless I'm gaming (obv). I could probably lose about 1x worth of space on either side and not notice it.
Or since you otherwise like the Ergodox, would something like this do it?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/IeMCcb8.png)
Guys this space bar thing isn't even an issue on the Egdx..So basically, give up the number row, and wind up with 2 rows of unusable keys on the bottom of the finger section? Sounds pretty silly to me. :-)
Move all alphabet keys One row up... so the key N or M and the left modifier would become space.. and your thumb will land there squarely..
Guys this space bar thing isn't even an issue on the Egdx..So basically, give up the number row, and wind up with 2 rows of unusable keys on the bottom of the finger section? Sounds pretty silly to me. :-)
Move all alphabet keys One row up... so the key N or M and the left modifier would become space.. and your thumb will land there squarely..
Also, the most natural spot for my thumb still lies in that awkward triangular gap area, if I do that.
what are you talking about?If you “Move all alphabet keys One row up”, then there’s suddenly no space for a number row. So I assume you’d recommend just put number keys somewhere else, in that example? Also, now there are 2 rows of hard to reach keys at the bottom of the finger section.
Guys this space bar thing isn't even an issue on the Egdx..So basically, give up the number row, and wind up with 2 rows of unusable keys on the bottom of the finger section? Sounds pretty silly to me. :-)
Move all alphabet keys One row up... so the key N or M and the left modifier would become space.. and your thumb will land there squarely..
Also, the most natural spot for my thumb still lies in that awkward triangular gap area, if I do that.
Here is a mod that may suit you then: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg1350750#msg1350750Yeah, I think that’s quite a bit better than the standard Ergodox design.
You lose one bottom row key and 3 hard-to-reach 1x thumb keys, but you've got 3 usable thumb keys, with the innermost one in a good position.
How about something like this:
(Attachment Link)
The thumb key as space would be more natural and accessible.
But special keycaps are required for this key.
Here is a mod that may suit you then: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg1350750#msg1350750Yeah, I think that’s quite a bit better than the standard Ergodox design.
You lose one bottom row key and 3 hard-to-reach 1x thumb keys, but you've got 3 usable thumb keys, with the innermost one in a good position.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=66635;image)
Daerid, what do you think?
How about something like this:
(Attachment Link)
The thumb key as space would be more natural and accessible.
But special keycaps are required for this key.
How about this?Marginally better, but now you effectively lose one easily reachable thumb key. Better is to give up on the existing ergodox PCB and make a more substantial redesign. :-)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=58673.0;attach=68449;image)
For more, see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61586
(http://i.imgur.com/pDcS3na.png) (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5fe5a5645662350bd95df8deff89364c)
Anybody used one of these? Looks very nice:
https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php
Anybody used one of these? Looks very nice:
https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php
Without tenting... it doesn't solve the wrist angle problem.. ergodox can conform to your wrist's resting angle through tenting.. the truly ergonomic can not.. therefore it's a LIE, as it is not Truly Ergonomic.
I think ergonomics is a bit subjective.It’s not *subjective*; as in, there are features of hand anatomy and physics which we can measure (efficiency, wrist strain, error rate, joint impact, long-term injury rate etc.). What keyboard is comfortable does however vary from one person to another, based on different hand shapes, typing styles, etc.
The first thing to worry about, before the shape of the keyboard per se, is whether your chair (or standing position), desk (or keyboard tray, or lap), and computer display are all positioned and oriented in a comfortable way. You want to keep your back and neck straight, your head adequately supported (either by lying down or by sitting or standing straight with your eyes pointed straight ahead), your wrists in as neutral an orientation as possible, and your arms in a comfortable position. You want to make sure to switch positions from time to time, take breaks, get enough sleep and exercise, and in general avoid the pitfalls of sitting all the time to the extent possible.
The Kinesis Advantage also overloads the thumb keys in the same way as the ErgoDox. Anyone have a similar or different experience with it?I don’t have any extensive experience typing on a Maltron or a Kinesis Advantage (about 10 minutes with the Maltron, about a day with the Kinesis, vs. a couple weeks full time with the Ergodox), but just from a bit of playing with one, I think the Maltron does rather better than either the Ergodox or the Kinesis Advantage.
My (perhaps unfair) summary goes like this:
(1) Maltron made a keyboard shape optimized for their production process: a hand-wired keyboard in a vacuum-formed plastic case. They have great flexibility when it comes to both 3-dimensional placement and orientation of every key. As a result, they can (at least for a range of average-ish hand sizes) design their keyboard so that as many keys as possible are within very easy reach, and each key is at the best height and angle that their process could manage.
(2) The Kinesis people thought that seemed like a great design, but thought they could produce a copycat for cheaper, by using a curved PCB instead of hand wiring. Because the curved PCB is much more constrained than the vacuum forming process w/r/t position and orientation of switches, they tried to compromise by using keycaps of varying profiles. This is only marginally successful, and overall the keys are not as reachable or easy to press as Maltron keys. Additionally, for my hands at least, the Kinesis seems to have much worse positioning and angling for the thumb keys than the Maltron does. I’m not sure if this is because they screwed up, or because my hands are atypical, or because their position nominally works for a broader range of hand shapes, or what. But anyway, to me it seems like a serious design flaw.
(3) The Ergodox people (Dox & friends) thought the Kinesis seemed like a great design, but thought they could produce a sort-of-copycat for even cheaper, by just using two flat PCBs/plates/cases. The downside of this is that the shape doesn’t fit a hand nearly as well. But potentially mitigating this, the two halves are separate, so they can be independently moved and reoriented to suit someone’s personal preference. Also, programmable firmware is great!
My (perhaps unfair) speculation is that at each copying step, the designers didn’t stop to think about what the optimal shape was given the constraints of human hands and their chosen production technology; instead, they just tried to copy the previous design as closely as possible and adapting it minimally to fit the new constraints. As a result, neither design comes from the same kind of understanding that the Maltron’s original creators had of the design space. [However, in getting a bunch of people who need something better away from standard keyboards, the Kinesis is still a great success. And as an inspirational collaborative hobby-project which gets people building their own keyboards and taking ownership of the whole process, the Ergodox is amazing and wonderful. I love it for that!]
I’m really sad that the DataStealth/Flinder keyboard never made it to production, because it seems like a very solid design from first principles, by about the most serious anatomy/ergonomics expert who has ever tried to design a keyboard from scratch. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099.msg1236269#msg1236269 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099.msg1236269#msg1236269)
Among keyboards before 2014, I think the DataStealth, the Maltron, the μTRON, and the Cherry G80-5000 are the best four examples of ergonomic keyboards (at least, best when it comes to the keyboard shape/layout) that were designed. They have 4 somewhat different philosophies about what makes a good ergonomic keyboard, and end up in 4 substantially different areas of the possible design space, but each is a real masterpiece.
I’m really excited to see projects like ErgoPro and keyboard.io and Axios coming up in 2014; we’re seeing some real innovation again for the first time in >10 years... not just hobby projects, but real products (fingers crossed). Hopefully there is continued experimentation and invention in the next few years!
Edit: I also hope someone starts trying layouts more like this:Show Image(http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/jpg/askeysono1.jpg)
Split spacebar + extra thumb keys are great, even on a standard-ish keyboard!
You have layers and thumb clusters for that. Put a layer shift on a thumb key and put f-keys into the layer.