[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[darkspider]

I want to order a black blank keyset for F62 with 2 capslocks then.
You mean, if we want to order black blanks, we should order them from Unicomp personally and send them to you, right?

[Melvang]

I want to order a black blank keyset for F62 with 2 capslocks then.
You mean, if we want to order black blanks, we should order them from Unicomp personally and send them to you, right?

Unicomp does not have right shift in black blank.

[Ellipse]

Yes darkspider I recommend that option.  Or I could place a group order for anyone who wants them, to save on shipping. 

[darkspider]

--Melvang
A guy on DT said Unicomp has some stock of black blank capslock. So we can use them instead of genuine right shift if we prefer HHKBish right shift.

--Ellipse
I'm happy if group order possible, because personally it'll costs much to ship them for me. Moreover, they seem not to have an option to order individual black blank capslock.

[Melvang]

--Melvang
A guy on DT said Unicomp has some stock of black blank capslock. So we can use them instead of genuine right shift if we prefer HHKBish right shift.

Fair warning, Unicomp also has a $.50 premium on all blank black keys over 1u as well. 

[Ellipse]

ok darkspider.  I will let you know - I expect to ask Unicomp about stock levels beforehand.

[Ellipse]

I had a few of the new barrels and flippers shipped in advance of the prototypes, so that if they are not right then they can be fixed with minimal delay to the project.

Also I finally found a good strain relief P clip to use for the USB cable - it will be metal like the original.

[ryahirv]

The excitement grows!

[Ellipse]

There was a question on DT regarding how the spacebar stabilizer wire connects to the top inner assembly.

Instead of the plastic spacebar tabs of the Model F keyboards,  I am using custom-made steel tabs that will be attached to the top inner assembly. The tabs can be bought separately if you want to repair your old Model F keyboard space bar (not for XT's or AT's).

They are also sized to accommodate a Model M spacebar.

[ctm]

OMG this is so amazing! I wish I have the money to buy one.

[Ellipse]

Yep ctm this project is on the higher end of custom keyboards because it is lots of metal and I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds.  Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike the Model F components.

In a month or so I do suggest buying one F62 or F77 if you want one because these are going out of production after the order period of about a month, and the price will be inevitably inflated after that - you will only be able to find one of these, if at all, from people buying extras to keep NIB and maybe sell years later (which I encourage as every order helps ensure the price stays at $325 as it is now!).  We are already at 170+ preorders. 

[Elrick]

Yep ctm this project is on the higher end of custom keyboards because it is lots of metal and I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds.  Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike the Model F components.

In a month or so I do suggest buying one F62 or F77 if you want one because these are going out of production after the order period of about a month, and the price will be inevitably inflated after that - you will only be able to find one of these, if at all, from people buying extras to keep NIB and maybe sell years later (which I encourage as every order helps ensure the price stays at $325 as it is now!).  We are already at 170+ preorders.

Exactly, this requires a lot of effort to happen and you've went beyond what Unicomp would ever do.

I for one will be buying the F77 at the lowest price when it's finally released by you Ellipse, so you can count on that order for sure on being paid for up front.  Knew this would be a ONE time only production of perhaps the rarest keyboard that will ever be made, for us keyboard addicts.

ALWAYS keep us informed of when you'll need the final money for these keyboards  .

[Ellipse]

ok Elrick - the order form should be opened by next Friday at the earliest, after I receive and test the prototypes.

[livingspeedbump]

Yep ctm this project is on the higher end of custom keyboards because it is lots of metal and I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds.  Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike the Model F components.

In a month or so I do suggest buying one F62 or F77 if you want one because these are going out of production after the order period of about a month, and the price will be inevitably inflated after that - you will only be able to find one of these, if at all, from people buying extras to keep NIB and maybe sell years later (which I encourage as every order helps ensure the price stays at $325 as it is now!).  We are already at 170+ preorders.

Exactly, this requires a lot of effort to happen and you've went beyond what Unicomp would ever do.

I for one will be buying the F77 at the lowest price when it's finally released by you Ellipse, so you can count on that order for sure on being paid for up front.  Knew this would be a ONE time only production of perhaps the rarest keyboard that will ever be made, for us keyboard addicts.

ALWAYS keep us informed of when you'll need the final money for these keyboards  .

I will definitely jump in on this as well.

[Elrick]

ok Elrick - the order form should be opened by next Friday at the earliest, after I receive and test the prototypes.

Oh DAMN, you've moistened my nether region with this sexy talk of "ORDER FORM".

How appropriate it shall be, making an Order on Friday the 13th next week  .

[Ellipse]

There was a question over on DT regarding birthdate labels.  I will include labels with birthdates and serial numbers.  They will be similar to the original silver-colored 4704 labels but with no logo. 

Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards.  This is probably the most important part to the success of this project.  If anyone has expertise or can offer their help in any of those fields please do chat with me over PM. 

[ryahirv]

There was a question over on DT regarding birthdate labels.  I will include labels with birthdates and serial numbers.  They will be similar to the original silver-colored 4704 labels but with no logo. 

Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards.  This is probably the most important part to the success of this project.  If anyone has expertise or can offer their help in any of those fields please do chat with me over PM.

Can we get our orders in before the press spreads the word like wildfire?  :-)

[Elrick]

Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards.  This is probably the most important part to the success of this project.

Once you post completed keyboard pictures ready for shipment, you shall see an avalanche of orders my friend.  Simply because these keyboards are unique in this world with no other input device giving that exact same feel and operation as a F62/F77 keyboard.

Also you will build these keyboards to last for someone's actual life meaning that if an 18 year old youngster buys it now, 80 years into the future the Ellipse keyboard will still keep on typing perfectly.  I shall never be giving up on keyboards no matter what other fancy tech develops into the future.

A Model-F is something you hold onto for life and treasure it immensely, especially if it's an Ellipse  .

[livingspeedbump]

Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards.  This is probably the most important part to the success of this project.

Once you post completed keyboard pictures ready for shipment, you shall see an avalanche of orders my friend.  Simply because these keyboards are unique in this world with no other input device giving that exact same feel and operation as a F62/F77 keyboard.

Also you will build these keyboards to last for someone's actual life meaning that if an 18 year old youngster buys it now, 80 years into the future the Ellipse keyboard will still keep on typing perfectly.  I shall never be giving up on keyboards no matter what other fancy tech develops into the future.

A Model-F is something you hold onto for life and treasure it immensely, especially if it's an Ellipse  .

I do think there will be a heap of orders as long as its in the ballpark price range as estimated.

[Ellipse]

Thanks for the kind words Elrick!  I do hope that these keyboards survive the test of time.  So many products people buy today develop issues in a few months' or years' time and are meant to be disposed of; it is great to be able to buy something made today that you can use every day and it will be there for you to use 10, 20, 30 years from now.  I hope this F77/F62 project will be like that.  I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with my original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I will end up spending $50,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!

ryahirv I will post a link on the forums right after the order forms open up, so those on the forums will be first to know about it.  I expect to assign serial numbers just about in the sequence of receiving the orders. 

And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd.  The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.).  I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge).  I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it. 

[livingspeedbump]

 
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd.  The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.).  I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge).  I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.

Very good news!! Count me as a definite 

[Bevo]

 
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd.  The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.).  I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge).  I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.

Very good news!! Count me as a definite 

I'm 89.6% in

[darkspider]

How much would you charge us if we choose anodized case option?

[Elrick]

And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd.  The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.).  I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge).  I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.

Still a very tasty price tag compared to past Kmac orders and whatnot.

Very reasonable BUT I would like a COMPLETE price tag with shipping because this baby has to be made by you with all the keys attached and the keyboard would be 100% functioning, ready to be shipped out as soon as possible.

Costing for an F77 to be shipped to Australia would be extremely nice  .

[atlas3686]

Thanks for the kind words Elrick!  I do hope that these keyboards survive the test of time.  So many products people buy today develop issues in a few months' or years' time and are meant to be disposed of; it is great to be able to buy something made today that you can use every day and it will be there for you to use 10, 20, 30 years from now.  I hope this F77/F62 project will be like that.  I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with my original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I will end up spending $50,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!

ryahirv I will post a link on the forums right after the order forms open up, so those on the forums will be first to know about it.  I expect to assign serial numbers just about in the sequence of receiving the orders. 

And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd.  The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.).  I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge).  I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it. 

So you saying if we want single digit serial numbers we need to get in really early with a paid order Gonna have to watch the threads carefully from next Friday onwards!

[ryahirv]

ryahirv I will post a link on the forums right after the order forms open up, so those on the forums will be first to know about it.  I expect to assign serial numbers just about in the sequence of receiving the orders. 

Superb! I'm ready!  :-)

[Ellipse]

darkspider I do not know the cost for that option and whether the option will be available just yet.

Elrick I expect to pass along exact shipping charges according to USPS.com.  You can approximate the cost on that web site in the future, but not just yet because we do not yet know the final weight of the package.  The costs will be a lot less if I ship a few orders to each country (outside the US) and then have someone volunteer to mail them locally (that is if you trust them!).  And yes everything will be essentially plug and play, though you may need to do some tinkering with the keyboard such as re-seating springs moved around in shipping, adjusting the default configuration in the GUI, etc.  I expect to program the layouts into each keyboard so you do not have to.

Yes atlas the earlier ones will get the lower serial numbers.  The single digits will probably be reserved for high level product supporters who volunteer to help contribute extra towards the tooling costs.  If there is a bad production batch we could run into extra costs and delays - there is always a risk of that, especially with literally so many moving pieces.

And some more updates and notes copied from my DT post:
the split right shift keyboards. They require separate PCB and top inner assembly designs, which have all been completed. A very generous forum member volunteered his time to design the PCBs and spent extra time making an adjusted design for the split shift F77 and F62 crowd.

Someone has offered a 3D printed non-stepped short caps lock key, which is probably the best we can do if you don't want a stepped caps lock style key for the short right shift - I am not sure if this will work but each key is about $6. http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?li=shop-results&optionId=40367439

Muirium I expect to take photos of the different suggested layouts once the prototypes arrive.

romevi you'd need to pick split right shift as an option, as it is a different PCB and top inner assembly. To switch back to the non-split shift in the future you'd need to at least buy the "regular" PCB and top inner assembly pieces, or preferably another F77/F62 keyboard

wcass is correct that the factory can configure flipper/spring placements for ISO/ANSI enter keys, short left/right shifts, and short/long backspace keys. You can even special request other vertical keys for the extra 15 key area of the F77s, such as a + or Enter key if you so choose, as the barrels support such a configuration.

I expect to make a detailed PayPal order form allowing multiple choice selections for these options, plus a section for inputting notes.

Any advice for the best free website designer? Some of the marketing advice I received mentioned I should make a web site.

[Ellipse]

The final major piece of the project is currently in production. The factory sent me some photos of the aluminum case prototypes in the CNC milling machine. In the first photo you can sort of recognize the keyboard's distinctive "pencil holder" bar. CNC milled prototypes are very expensive - they essentially take a block of solid aluminum and go inch by inch with drills and other tools to remove a bit of aluminum at a time.

[njbair]

Someone let CPT know we've got "machining porn" in here!

[heedpantsnow]

Someone let CPT know we've got "machining porn" in here!

Oh man it's my favorite kind

[Elrick]

Someone let CPT know we've got "machining porn" in here!

Oh man it's my favorite kind

Time to break out a new KY Bottle  .

[Ellipse]

If the prototypes ship this week there is a good chance they arrive by Friday if they use DHL Express. But I would plan for some delays of a week or so at least because who knows what manufacturing delays will come up. And there will be longer delays if the prototypes are not good and/or the flipper resin does not work well.  I am hoping to accept orders within days of testing the prototypes.

[Ellipse]

Would anyone be interested in acquiring one or both of the very first Model F F77/F62 protototype units produced from new components in 20+ years, after I receive the final production units in 1-2 months? These would be at a premium and you could be recognized as a project supporter if you'd like. Please PM me to talk.

No updates yet from the factory. Hopefully everything ships out this week or early next week.

[Muffinbottoms]

Hey Ellipse! So I actually just went through this thread and read all the replies so I could get a better understanding. Definitely took me longer than it should have and it probably would've helped if I knew at least half of what everyone was saying haha, but I gathered the gist of things and just had a few questions:

What exactly is a Kishsaver? And why is it so rare?
When I first stumbled upon this post I assumed you were actually making SSK's at first haha and then I realized everyone was talking about something much different. I began googling, but all I kept getting were vague restoration threads on DT and GH and none of them provided a clear answer as to what they were. Eventually I found Kishy's site and learned a bit about these types of Model F's, but the one question I didn't get answered was why they're rare?

HHKB layout and Unicomp caps
Saw a little gif trying to explain the difference in layout, but still couldn't get an idea of it. You mentioned you'd show the different layouts on the prototypes, but could anyone else elaborate on this? Also due to these different layout a smaller caps key and a 1u key are needed for the right side, but something about Unicomp not having black blanks makes 3D printing the option. Does Unicomp also sell beige/white and could I just get those colors? Also could anyone give a good approximation of how their caps feel?

Re-runs
You mentioned before that you might look into kickstarter as a possible way to re-run this, but then in later posts you iterate how this was a long process and this would be a one and done kinda deal. Would the kickstarter be a thing or is this officially a one and done?

Payment
I'm assuming orders will become open around this Friday if everything goes according to plan and I know you're gonna go through PayPal, so I wanted to know, will I be able to use PayPal credit to pay for these boards? Honestly After reading through this whole post I'm pretty hyped about these boards, and the rarity of them, knowing it's possibly my only chance, makes me literally want to sell every single item in my possession just to own these two babies haha 

Solenoid and Box Art
It was really brief, but there was mention of something called a "solenoid". What is it and how does it affect the board? You responded with "haptic feedback", so does that mean it rumbles the board at each key press? Were these common is original F62/F77's? Also if you're still interested in doing something for that box art I found this little image:


Sorry if this is a long post! Just wanted to get some things clarified  I'm really excited to see these prototypes when they come in! Once again thank you for undertaking this task to bring an old board back to life!

Edit: Forgot to mention the ellipse box art picture is because your name is Ellipse  and someone mentioned red would be a cool color. I could only find pink though 

[romevi]

I don't get the hype for Kishsavers either, but they're very hard to find nonetheless. Gonna go with the 77 as I need that extra set to the right.

[Techno Trousers]

The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.

[darkspider]

What is it and how does it affect the board?

As you say, a solenoid is activeted each key press and gives us clicky feedback. To run them in boards Ellipse try to manufacture, you need solenoid driver, which is available from orihalcon a member of both GH and DT. In my knowledge solenoids are not originated in original F62/77 and 107, but in more old style of keyboards like beamsprings. And they have buzzer instead.

[Melvang]

The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.

There are only two known specimens of the 77 key in the keyboard community.

[tribade]

Beautiful job on this board!  Can't wait to see the completed prototypes!

[Ellipse]

Thanks muffinbottoms for the interest. 

For the HHKB style layout please look up a photo of a HHKB.  The biggest change is to imagine the right shift key replaced with a caps lock key and a regular key the size of a letter - some prefer this layout but it requires a separate production as the barrels need to be moved a little in the right shift area.

Unicomp has black blanks but does not have right shift black blank keys.  3d printing is only required if you want your HHKB style keyboard to have a non-stepped shift key (one that does not look like a caps lock key).

I have not decided on kickstarter yet.  I prefer direct orders.  I may do kickstarter for this run as an optional choice just to get more interest before the orders close.  Yes you can pay by credit card.  You do not need to create a PayPal acct.

[Ellipse]

Let's discuss keyboard feet: what do people want to order? Please list product links like those from McMaster-Carr or the like.

As one option I will offer some McMaster Carr cork feet.

Would people want screwed on bumper bottoms like these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rubber-bumpers/=zr655b These would probably only work for the upper 2 due to the length of the threads.  Would people want all 4 drilled or just 2?

[cjhard]

Tight-Grip Ridged Stem Push-In bumper or "Bumpers with Threaded Hole" might work better than Bumper with Threaded Stud. For the former, you can just have a hole that bumper shoves through, and for the latter you can likely use the same hole just apply screw through hole.

I think the McMaster Carr links just dump you at the Standard Rubber Bumpers page

[Elrick]

Let's discuss keyboard feet: what do people want to order? Please list product links like those from McMaster-Carr or the like.

As one option I will offer some McMaster Carr cork feet.

Would people want screwed on bumper bottoms like these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rubber-bumpers/=zr655b These would probably only work for the upper 2 due to the length of the threads.  Would people want all 4 drilled or just 2?

I would prefer just normal all Silicone adhesive feet because they last longer than any Cork material due to high temperatures and low humidity (my environment).

Cork tends to break and splinter into bits over time so it eventually will fall apart when you move the keyboard off it's smooth surface.

[Ir0n]

This looks super high quality.. can you reprogram the side buttons on the 77?

Also why do some of these have like a super tiny enter key? Lol will this have normal sizes?

[darkspider]

Xwhatsit makes it possible to assign any function to any physical key.
And this product will support any style of layout which is supported in original F62/77 according to Ellipse.

[Ir0n]

Xwhatsit makes it possible to assign any function to any physical key.
And this product will support any style of layout which is supported in original F62/77 according to Ellipse.

Thanks friend!

[romevi]

This one is using xwhatsit, but what's the difference between that and Soarer?

[raymogi]

The more I see this, the more I want it. I can't seem to find the old model that is clean so I guess I'm stuck waiting for this to come to production.

[aznairjordan]

After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77

[romevi]

After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77

Man, it's getting harder and harder for me to order just one. I'd love to own both, but I've got so many GBs going on right now that I have to choose one.