Author Topic: Computer problem - system builders input requested (problem found, /thread) (Read 13200 times)

suicidal_orange · « **on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 05:56:09 »

As you may have read in the "what's bothering you" thread I'm having computer problems.

For whatever reason after reinstalling windows I installed chipset drivers and that killed the onboard graphics. Not even the BIOS POST screen shows up After many wasted hours and a new bios chip I'm back to this point so I'll skip the middle.

So I have one CPU (i7 5775c) and one motherboard (ASRock Z97m OC Formula) and, between them they refuse to show anything using the integrated graphics which I want to use. I have no useful friends with a spare parts box - damn laptops!

Having done extensive testing I've come to the conclusion it's hardware damage so I have these options:

1 - take it as an omen to change my life, sell the CPU/mobo combo as 'working if you use a graphics card'
2 - buy a cheap CPU to test the motherboard. Money down the drain whether it works or not as doesn't solve the problem
3 - buy a new decent motherboard. Expensive, won't fix the problem if it's the CPU
4 - buy a new cheap motherboard. No overclocking - what a waste! Won't fix problem if CPU
5 - buy a used decent motherboard. Might die, won't fix problem if it's the CPU
4 - buy a used cheap motherboard. No overclocking - what a waste! Might die, won't fix problem if CPU. At least it's cheap...
5 - buy used mobo/4xxx CPU combo. Can test everything and sell something on at a slight loss, but as I only have water cooling it's messy and will take hours.

Have I missed anything? What would you do?

Leslieann · « **Reply #1 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 06:34:25 »

Have you reset the cmos/bios?
It's very possible the board has defaulted to PCIE instead of auto or onboard graphics, so a card will let you check that. Look into buying the cheapest graphics card you can find, (craigslist?) could even buy one new, test then take it back or just keep using it.

Or, you could take it to a local computer shop and have them do it. Explain to them you just need to see if that is the problem. Tell them you had a card that failed and now you can't get onboard to work. A lot of shops will take pitty and pop in a spare card to check the setting. You may just want to drop by and ask if they have an old, cheap card they can sell you for cheap, they often do. DO NOT CALL, visit and talk to them you will get better results and a better price.

By the way, nice processor...

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #2 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 06:49:46 »

Thanks Leslieann

I reset and played with bios options then flashed the latest beta bios which still didn't help, so trtied to flash back to stable but that failed so I bought a new chip which arrived this morning - that's the very short version of the middle I skipped in this thread as I'm back where I was before all that.

I think you've slightly misunderstood what happened - I installed windows using the onboard graphics, no problem. Installed windows updates including many reboots, no problem. Installed chipset drivers and rebooted yet again and nothing has shown through the onboard since on any output. I have an old card to test so the problem is definitely the mobo and/or CPU. It doesn't even boot without a graphics card - I set DVD boot first, remove graphics card, DVD doesn't spin. No beeps, just doesn't do anything...

I thought about taking the CPU to a shop and hoping they have a Broadwell compatible board to test it in but as you probably know it was far from popular - plenty of 8x chipset boards still available, very few 9x.

jdcarpe · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 08:30:44 »

So I saw that you tested the RAM in another machine, and it's good...

All this was working until you installed new chipset drivers, right?

You did take this down to Mobo/CPU/RAM and connected a speaker to see if it POST at all?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 08:41:57 »

Yes, the RAMs good and I have an alternate set which does the same. I bought a buzzer that didn't work but tp4 suggested an LED which flashed when the bios was 'corrupt', nothing otherwise. The fans spin but that's the only sign of life - if I had to guess the bios is trying to initialise the damaged graphics which it can see but they don't respond so it just sits there.

I haven't disconnected everything because it works fine with a graphics card so should without!

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 09:32:32 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Wed, 21 February 2018, 08:41:57

Yes, the RAMs good and I have an alternate set which does the same. I bought a buzzer that didn't work but tp4 suggested an LED which flashed when the bios was 'corrupt', nothing otherwise. The fans spin but that's the only sign of life - if I had to guess the bios is trying to initialise the damaged graphics which it can see but they don't respond so it just sits there.

I haven't disconnected everything because it works fine with a graphics card so should without!

Always disconnect everything but the minimum things you're troubleshooting.

I would clear cmos and start with mobo, cpu and ram only see what happens.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

tp4tissue · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 10:46:52 »

Right now, can you see the bios through the video card or the igpu. or can you see nothing at all.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 11:05:54 »

Graphics card in, iGPU disabled - boots as normal, you wouldn't know there's a problem
Graphics card in, iGPU set default in bios - completely dead
Graphics card in, iGPU forced on but PCI-E as default - completely dead
Graphics card out - completely dead

There is only one hard drive so the idea of 'stripling everything out' is funny, though usually I'd have said the same so I took it out. No change.

The problem has to be the iGPU, but the Intel test thing won't run to confirm because it says it's disabled and enabling makes it not boot...

Tactile · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 11:12:07 »

If you have the means to burn a CD, DVD, or bootable flash drive, I'd boot into Knoppix, which includes quite a few tools which might help diagnosis.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 11:16:20 »

That's more like it, a random suggestion

I have windows installed so can do pretty much anything, I could put in a Linux drive from another computer if that would help. Interesting thought - I wonder if the iGPU shows up in lspci or similar? Will have a look on the other box first...

Edit: it does. VGA compatible controller: Intel ...

Doesn't show up on the broken computer, assumedly because it's disabled. I wonder if it can be forced on using grub

tp4tissue · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 11:46:08 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Wed, 21 February 2018, 11:05:54

Graphics card in, iGPU disabled - boots as normal, you wouldn't know there's a problem
Graphics card in, iGPU set default in bios - completely dead
Graphics card in, iGPU forced on but PCI-E as default - completely dead
Graphics card out - completely dead

There is only one hard drive so the idea of 'stripling everything out' is funny, though usually I'd have said the same so I took it out. No change.

The problem has to be the iGPU, but the Intel test thing won't run to confirm because it says it's disabled and enabling makes it not boot...

Did you try, reformatting the hdd.. so it's testing Fresh , w/o the igpu driver installed.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 12:26:54 »

It doesn't get past bios let alone loading windows drivers - no point going through all those updates again!

tp4tissue · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 13:37:52 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Wed, 21 February 2018, 12:26:54

It doesn't get past bios let alone loading windows drivers - no point going through all those updates again!

I would try to install just windows first on a separate partition or a different drive, if the igpu works through that, then it's the drive.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 13:44:46 »

You're not getting it - if I put the windows DVD in without the graphics card it won't boot to install it. I could reinstall with the graphics card in, but as soon as I pull it out I'll be back where I am drivers or not.

Looking on eBay for badly listed 'faulty' combos...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #14 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 16:07:57 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Wed, 21 February 2018, 13:44:46

You're not getting it - if I put the windows DVD in without the graphics card it won't boot to install it. I could reinstall with the graphics card in, but as soon as I pull it out I'll be back where I am drivers or not.

Looking on eBay for badly listed 'faulty' combos...

use windows usb drive tool, then boot from usb drive , and install from that..

this overall dosen't sound like a hardware problem, because it's unlikely a part of your hardware broke, at the exact same time you installed a new piece of software

Leslieann · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 18:47:00 »

If you are not seeing bios, it will not matter what drive or OS you install, something has been damaged. Bios are what initialize and start the hardware to boot the os, that is it's purpose.

The question is if it's the cpu or board, I think a part swap is the only way to properly diagnose which it is, but I have a pretty good idea which is the problem.

My bet is that its the motherboard, while CPUS are not hard to damage, odds of destroying the graphics system in it is pretty slim. More importantly, you cannot write to the cpu, so unless it was completely burnt out I would imagine you would get some sort of gibberish and artifacts on the screen. The odds of burning out the GPU perfectly to the point that the board doesn't recognize that it's there at all is pretty slim, especially doing so without impacting the rest of the processor. Possible, yes, but the odds are up there, may as well buy a lottery ticket. Also, a processor that has a problem usually gets worse and worse over time. It's rarely a case of this part died and the rest keeps working fine.

So for me, it points to the motherboard. Something in the chipset is damaged and it's simply not detecting the onboard graphics in the processor which is why it will not boot. The system thinks you have no video system installed. If you use a speaker you should get a beep code telling you no graphics card detected, just as you do for not installing memory.

Also you cannot use Grub to enable onboard graphics, there maaay be an EFI call for it, but it's unlikely. Most bios have an IGPU, PCIE and auto, if you set the bios to auto the system uses both but sends the initial signal to pcie. This will allow you to detect it in an OS. Nothing is going to detect it in an OS if it's set to pcie in the bios because the board should disable it (not all do, but most do).

By the way, the solution I posted made sense based on what you wrote.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #16 on:** Wed, 21 February 2018, 20:14:23 »

Quote from: Leslieann on Wed, 21 February 2018, 18:47:00

If you are not seeing bios, it will not matter what drive or OS you install, something has been damaged. Bios are what initialize and start the hardware to boot the os, that is it's purpose.

Exactly! Thanks for confirming I've not forgotten everything (I was beginning to wonder)

Quote

The question is if it's the cpu or board, I think a part swap is the only way to properly diagnose which it is, but I have a pretty good idea which is the problem
...
for me, it points to the motherboard
...
If you use a speaker you should get a beep code telling you no graphics card detected, just as you do for not installing memory.

I have an LED as a 'speaker', but it doesn't flash when playing dead, it did flash codes at random when the bios was 'corrupt' so it does work. I guess if the motherboard knew the iGPU was dead that would push the error back into the CPU but as the options still show in bios the board probably thinks it's there and working.

Quote

Also you cannot use Grub to enable onboard graphics, there maaay be an EFI call for it, but it's unlikely. Most bios have an IGPU, PCIE and auto, if you set the bios to auto the system uses both but sends the initial signal to pcie. This will allow you to detect it in an OS. Nothing is going to detect it in an OS if it's set to pcie in the bios because the board should disable it (not all do, but most do).

I know Linux can bypass some things, I had a 200gb drive shared on a pentium 1 at uni by disabling it in bios. Sadly you're right again though, this doesn't seem to be one of them.

Quote

By the way, the solution I posted made sense based on what you wrote.

I'm sure it did and I appreciated the reply but now you have the whole story you agree - something died very suddenly, which is strange. Hence the options in the OP.

I guess I'll have to buy yet another motherboard if I want to use the onboard graphics (the first board was frustrating so I landed up mashing lots of pins in the socket now this with the second - I have no faith the next one will work well) or a half decent graphics card and stick with a partially broken board that will probably get worse.

Or sell this crap and wait for a fixed CPU hopefully sometime this year, but not sure I'd wish this CPU on anyone let alone making them pay for it!

I want my 2600k build back

(retired late 2016 due to - motherboard failure)

atarione · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat, 24 February 2018, 15:13:50 »

If it was me... I'd take the motherboard out of the case I'd reseat the cpu / cooler / ram .. I'd pull the cmos battery short the contacts with a flat screw driver replace battery (cmos)

I'd then put motherboard on the box it came in (or another box) and hook up ONLY:: PSU and keyboard and monitor and see if it outputs via the onboard video at that point?

p_blaze · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 24 February 2018, 20:33:21 »

As leslieann said, i'd point at the motherboard. It's clear that this is a bios/chipset issue if you cant get through POST

Try one more time to flash the bios, and if youre desperate reseat your cpu?

I'd also try removingall but the necessary parts in your system to check if you're having some sort of POST conflict

Also you might be missing the igpu drivers which might be causing the issue, try reinstalling them

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 03:10:51 »

Quote from: atarione on Sat, 24 February 2018, 15:13:50

If it was me... I'd take the motherboard out of the case I'd reseat the cpu / cooler / ram .. I'd pull the cmos battery short the contacts with a flat screw driver replace battery (cmos)

I'd then put motherboard on the box it came in (or another box) and hook up ONLY:: PSU and keyboard and monitor and see if it outputs via the onboard video at that point?

So to understand your thinking, something on the back of the CPU socket moved and shorted out pins specific to the iGPU in the ~10mins between it booting using the iGPU with no driver and rebooting once the drivers had installed?

I guess it's possible, and probably not much less likely than an inactive driver (doesn't load until it's rebooted) frying something on the board...

Unfortunately my water cooling includes a back mounted radiator so I can just about unscrew the board but it's not leaving the case unless I drain the loop or remove the water block, either way I can't power it on...

Quote from: p_blaze on Sat, 24 February 2018, 20:33:21

As leslieann said, i'd point at the motherboard. It's clear that this is a bios/chipset issue if you cant get through POST

I would agree but as the GPU is now in the CPU rather than the chipset I'm worried that's where the damage is. I'm looking at nearly $200 for a decent motherboard or $150 for a used one, and either way I land up with a 3 year old system that's a PITA. Or forget overclocking and spend $100 on a motherboard with pathetic heatsinks (designed for stock cooler airflow which I don't have) and have a computer that's slower than a 4 year old build. Or buy a GPU I don't want and tolerate more noise, or spend more on more radiators plus a bigger case to put them in...

I don't want to spend anything, I didn't even want to buy this build in the first place let alone buying three motherboards for it!

This feels like it should be back in 'what's bothering you' as it clearly is, if you hadn't noticed

)

Leslieann · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 04:41:29 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sun, 25 February 2018, 03:10:51

I would agree but as the GPU is now in the CPU rather than the chipset I'm worried that's where the damage is.

Yes, the physical GPU itself is on the cpu, but a lot of components including detection is controlled by bios and chipset.

Just because the bios has the option means little, remember some Intel cpus have them, and some do not. I doubt the bios is smart enough to display the option only when available. Bios will still show system fan options when only a CPU fan is installed, some will even show hdd detection for ports without drives installed. I think you are giving the bios more credit here than it deserves.

While checking pins is a hassle, it's not a bad idea. Normally, I would agree it is unlikely, except that you have a water cooler, in which case, there is a small chance something leaked either onto the board, into the socket or behind the board and shorted something. It may be a small chance, but I've seen stranger things happen.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #21 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 05:22:47 »

Thanks again Leslieann - you make another good point as there are only a couple of compatible Xeons which don't have a GPU making it a choice someone made, why would they bother to hide the option.

I guess I should stump up for another SOC FORCE and attempt to rekindle the limited enthusiasm I had for an orange build. Having mashed pins on my first one attempting a vertical CPU installation I've been incredibly careful with this board and the pins are perfect (checked since the problem) and nothing's got wet - I've done that before too, cost me a motherboard and a rather nice geforce 6600 with the chip on the top (still find it amusing the marketing pic is of the wrong side

))

I'm going to take the CPU for a walk around town tomorrow, there are a few independant shops so hopefully one of them is friendly and has a compatible motherboard to test it on. Assuming they aren't deterred by the superglue fume residue from relidding...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #22 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 10:28:41 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sun, 25 February 2018, 05:22:47

Thanks again Leslieann - you make another good point as there are only a couple of compatible Xeons which don't have a GPU making it a choice someone made, why would they bother to hide the option.

I guess I should stump up for another SOC FORCE and attempt to rekindle the limited enthusiasm I had for an orange build. Having mashed pins on my first one attempting a vertical CPU installation I've been incredibly careful with this board and the pins are perfect (checked since the problem) and nothing's got wet - I've done that before too, cost me a motherboard and a rather nice geforce 6600 with the chip on the top (still find it amusing the marketing pic is of the wrong side ))

I'm going to take the CPU for a walk around town tomorrow, there are a few independant shops so hopefully one of them is friendly and has a compatible motherboard to test it on. Assuming they aren't deterred by the superglue fume residue from relidding...

No, that's the right side.

-For the novices-

The reason they did that is because vapor chambers/piping works better when the fins are facing up above the chip, whereby the condensate direction is aided by gravity.

Lianli cases had alot of cases reversing the motherboard for the same reason.

That 6600top has the chip and cooler on the other side.

I was debating getting that back in the day, but went with a 6600gt instead.. it's much much faster than 6600

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #23 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 10:37:11 »

Yup it was a good card, sat millimeters from the bottom of an original Scythe ninja so ran very cool. I still say the huge gold heatsink would have made a much better pic than the clear acrylic backplate though!

tp4tissue · « **Reply #24 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 10:42:21 »

Crossing fingers for AMD getting them ghz into the 4.5 range which is a stretch, but they're going to need 4.6 soonish, because intel will roll in with hidden sauce..

atarione · « **Reply #25 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 14:31:58 »

do you have the stock cooler still??

a cheap but workable air cooler would be handy to have about for trouble shooting..

this is part of why I am rocking a cyorig H5 on my pc and a hyper 212 on my wife's sooo much easier to deal with hardware changes / troubleshooting vs water..

from the sounds of it you can get the CPU out without draining the loop so maybe try that reseat cpu and RAM and pull cmos battery (/ short contacts) replace battery

and see how that leaves things.

Leslieann · « **Reply #26 on:** Sun, 25 February 2018, 17:40:02 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 25 February 2018, 10:42:21

Crossing fingers for AMD getting them ghz into the 4.5 range which is a stretch, but they're going to need 4.6 soonish, because intel will roll in with hidden sauce..

Intel already blew their load for 2018 .

I'm not convinced Intel has anything earthshaking in the pipe, it will be better than current, and hopefully a bit more organized, but it's not going to be a major jump like C2d or the Core I series. Expect more cores, bit of a speed bump, nothing more.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #27 on:** Mon, 26 February 2018, 06:47:15 »

Quote from: atarione on Sun, 25 February 2018, 14:31:58

do you have the stock cooler still??

a cheap but workable air cooler would be handy to have about for trouble shooting..

this is part of why I am rocking a cyorig H5 on my pc and a hyper 212 on my wife's sooo much easier to deal with hardware changes / troubleshooting vs water..

from the sounds of it you can get the CPU out without draining the loop so maybe try that reseat cpu and RAM and pull cmos battery (/ short contacts) replace battery

and see how that leaves things.

Yes, I have a CPU cooler but no thermal pad for the mobo heatsink. Also to get the mobo out I'd have to pull the waterblocks around and it may well leak so I'd have to drain it. My tweaking days are past and I just want a nice quiet iGPU build so may as well re-use my old cooling (six years no change), which is integrated to the case (nearly 12 years old, nodded over time!)

Took the CPU for a walk and found no-one willing to test it so came home and checked the socket again, looks good so reset bios and - still no iGPU. I'm putting this aside until I'm in a spendy mood, unless an irresistible bargain appears.

Thanks to all who offered their thoughts

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 05:13:08 »

Guess what the postman just dropped off - a tiny saviour (I hope!) This will look rediculous in my big case, assuming it works...

Leslieann · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 05:24:33 »

It's crazy to think you can build a decent gaming machine that can just about fit inside a box not much larger than a power supply isn't it?

I went MATX years ago and am now switching to mini-ITX for everything. I just wish case companies would figure it out, case selection for them is still not good.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 05:28:43 »

Yeah, I knew it would be small but it really is a joke just how small it is.

It's going in an ancient Antec P180, was going to upgrade my case but budget has been spent on the mobo instead

)

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 06:52:42 »

Put the CPU in the new board - bootlooped about 5 times but finally displayed the POST screen

Now, do I risk damaging the pins and putting it back in the old board to see if it was a microcode isssue that's now fixed so I can sell that board as fully working or do I stop while I'm ahead... That's a question for after lunch I think.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 08:17:49 »

Eaten, came back and switched it on no problem. Went in BIOS and enabled XMP, reboot and - all too familiar black screen.

Clear BIOS, still black. Swap RAM, still black. Add a graphics card - all good! Except when I move the mouse in BIOS there is a definite squeak coming from the card...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 08:21:40 »

Is ur house's earth ground set up right ? Maybe the last setup caught a surge.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 08:40:56 »

But what happened? If the iGPU is fried it couldn't have worked twice in the new motherboard and if there was dodgy microcode loaded on the CPU by the old board/windows update it must have been replaced to work on the new board.

But if the detection circuit on the old motherboard is fried the iGPU should work properly with the new motherboard.

House wiring is not that old, I've flipped the fuses many times being stupid and that didn't happen. Plus the PSU is a new Seasonic and it happily powered the CPU overclocked running prime95 for a couple of hours (with a graphics card) so doesn't seem that is damaged either...

So some kind of a power surge that managed to skip the PSU and mobo to only damage a small part of the iGPU? Generally I like computers because they make sense, but this?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #35 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 09:21:37 »

Tried a second PSU, no different.

Added the LED 'speaker' and just like the other board - nothing.

I think it's time to ask Intel!

tp4tissue · « **Reply #36 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 10:11:53 »

It's the XMP then..

The IGPU uses the Ram..

And many times, with XMP, the iGPU goes, WTF IS THIS.. then proceeds to p00p-itself.

Set the main timings manually, then command rate 2T, Try to boot that.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #37 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 11:05:00 »

But it's the same RAM that worked fine on XMP settings on the old board before it didn't work and if it were just that a BIOS reset would be enough on the new board. Hell, the new board even has a 'reset and make my RAM work' button.

Just like on the old board setting primary graphics as PCIE with multi monitor enabled so iGPU works too results in it not booting. I've contact the seller of the new board to see what they did that made it work once, hopefully they are somewhat techy to have bought an ITX board...

jdcarpe · « **Reply #38 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 11:11:23 »

So, if you turn off XMP, does the iGPU work again?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #39 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 11:30:18 »

No, it's just like the last board - any attempt to use the iGPU results in it failing to even start BIOS POST (no beeps to say it fails) and no amount of BIOS reset or reseating the CPU brings it back

Given that the CPU is the only constant I probably have two perfectly working motherboards but the CPU has had new microcode released and then recalled through Windows updates as well as running under a new beta BIOS briefly, so I don't think it knows how to work it's iGPU. Pretty sure this is the first time I've ever heard of a microcode updare getting pulled, and as hardly anyone has this CPU (and if they do they stopped tweaking it years ago) it's not going to affect many people. I am just that unlucky!

jdcarpe · « **Reply #40 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 13:23:13 »

Can you use an external GPU to adjust the BIOS voltage settings?

How about trying these (worth a shot maybe?):

switch back to default memory settings 2133Mhz
SA Voltage = 1.05v
IO Voltage = 0.95v

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #41 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 13:57:47 »

Memory isn't rated that fast in the first place, I'll give the voltages a shot but don't hold much hope when it won't POST after a BIOS reset.

Heard back from the previous owner, the board was running two monitors off the onboard alongside a graphics card for gaming without issue using a 4770 so it's definitely my CPU that's this problem. Do I buy another to sell on with my second board?!

tp4tissue · « **Reply #42 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:02:55 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Wed, 07 March 2018, 13:57:47

Memory isn't rated that fast in the first place, I'll give the voltages a shot but don't hold much hope when it won't POST after a BIOS reset.

Heard back from the previous owner, the board was running two monitors off the onboard alongside a graphics card for gaming without issue using a 4770 so it's definitely my CPU that's this problem. Do I buy another to sell on with my second board?!

Just use the thing with a graphics card, sheesh, hahahaha

jdcarpe · « **Reply #43 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:03:02 »

I think it's the voltages being changed by XMP that are messing with the iGPU. It sounds like the update stopped the iGPU from working with higher voltages. So now, when you enable XMP, it changes the voltage settings and stops iGPU from working.

But that's just my theory.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #44 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:13:59 »

Theories are good, I will give it a try when I get home.

As to using the graphics card it's a radeon 6450 - it wasn't quick many years ago when it was bought, today it's utterly useless! I could buy a half decent card but the whole point of this CPU is the graphics so I want to use them. Plus only one hotspot to cool, adding a card means buying a water block or having another fan...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #45 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:14:07 »

Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:03:02

I think it's the voltages being changed by XMP that are messing with the iGPU. It sounds like the update stopped the iGPU from working with higher voltages. So now, when you enable XMP, it changes the voltage settings and stops iGPU from working.

But that's just my theory.

was the microcode updated through linux ?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #46 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:55:45 »

No, I've not got as far as Linux as it's easier to install windows first then it auto adds to the bootloader when you install Linux. Installing windows second it forgets Linux.

All voltages are helpfully only adjustable by offsets and it doesn't say what the current values are. Guess I could go back to the old board as it's doing the same? That had a choice.

jdcarpe · « **Reply #47 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:57:52 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:55:45

All voltages are helpfully only adjustable by offsets and it doesn't say what the current values are. Guess I could go back to the old board as it's doing the same? That had a choice.

Oh wow. Such helpful. Much multiplier.

Yeah, maybe try it on the old mobo just to see if that is the issue?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #48 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 15:21:39 »

Old mobo allows -1 to 1 set SA to max and digital and analog IO to 0.95

Enable multi monitor (so iGPU is used as well) and - no boot.

I wonder if crazy auto overclock profiles will make it work...

Edit: Unsurprisingly they do not.

Leslieann · « **Reply #49 on:** Wed, 07 March 2018, 21:48:35 »

Microcode is not permanent, it is only temporary, unless something has changed, you cannot write to the CPU firmware.

Also, I'm still not entirely convinced it's the processor, you haven't mentioned it, but I would suspect your ram may be a problem. As Tp said, it does influence the IGPU.
Have you tested the memory?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #50 on:** Thu, 08 March 2018, 02:30:36 »

Oh crap, really? I wish you'd said that days ago, I would have written it off.

I've been setting the RAM underclocked to the standard 1600mhz to ensure it's not a factor, tested it using memtest at this speed but that was in another mobo with another CPU. I guess I could check it using a graphics card with the dodgy CPU, but it takes so long and it's prime95 blend stable so I'm happy it's good. I have swapped in another set on both boards too, just in case.

I have two of everything (mobo, PSU and RAM) so the only common factor is the CPU. But I still don't see how it could have been damaged as it appears to have been, especially if it's not microcode.

Also don't forget this is not a new build, the iGPU worked consistently through all my attempts at overclocking using the same hardware last year so I wouldn't have said it was overly sensitive.

Leslieann · « **Reply #51 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 03:09:24 »

It being the Igpu is a new one for me.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #52 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 03:54:05 »

Well seems there was new microcode released on the 6th, I'll download that and mod it into the old mobo's stable BIOS as I now have a spare to chip to hotswap. Can't do any harm, apart from the speed hit...

If you weren't overseas I'd happily send you the CPU and RAM in the ITX to play with Leslieann, but you are

Leslieann · « **Reply #53 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 04:07:41 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Fri, 09 March 2018, 03:54:05

Well seems there was new microcode released on the 6th, I'll download that and mod it into the old mobo's stable BIOS as I now have a spare to chip to hotswap. Can't do any harm, apart from the speed hit...

If you weren't overseas I'd happily send you the CPU and RAM in the ITX to play with Leslieann, but you are

Thanks, but I have too much hardware sitting around as it is, nothing that powerful, but plenty nonetheless.

I'm sure you can find someone over there who can really put it to good use. Maybe have them then kick down their old system, and on down the line (that tends to be how it works with my family and friends and my old hardware unless I sell it).

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #54 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 06:22:43 »

Can't find the new microcode, looks like I'll have to wait for someone to release a BIOS with it in.

The few people I might consider gifting such nice hardware to don't need an i5 let alone a 7 and, probably because of this, all use laptops/tablets. No point selling 'maybe broken' hardware so for now I shall wait impatiently...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #55 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:00:28 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Fri, 09 March 2018, 06:22:43

Can't find the new microcode, looks like I'll have to wait for someone to release a BIOS with it in.

The few people I might consider gifting such nice hardware to don't need an i5 let alone a 7 and, probably because of this, all use laptops/tablets. No point selling 'maybe broken' hardware so for now I shall wait impatiently...

Send it to Mom_orange.. or Dad_orange

It's probabaly better than their pentium 4.. !!

nugglets · « **Reply #56 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:06:09 »

Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:03:02

I think it's the voltages being changed by XMP that are messing with the iGPU. It sounds like the update stopped the iGPU from working with higher voltages. So now, when you enable XMP, it changes the voltage settings and stops iGPU from working.

But that's just my theory.

Since OP said they like theories, I'm going to agree with this one and add something that seems to get overlooked for Haswell/Broadwell: They have integrated voltage regulation. When this starts to fail, some truly bizarre things can happen that most of us aren't used to associating with CPU trouble. I've not had this particular problem, but considering that the CPU itself has separate regulation for the iGPU (to enable control over the power to the iGPU independently of the other systems) it is not out of the realm of reason that this is your point of failure.

The how and why of this problem rearing it's head when it has could just be coincidence relating to time, power cycling, or any number of things.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #57 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:13:09 »

Quote from: nugglets on Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:06:09

Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 07 March 2018, 14:03:02
I think it's the voltages being changed by XMP that are messing with the iGPU. It sounds like the update stopped the iGPU from working with higher voltages. So now, when you enable XMP, it changes the voltage settings and stops iGPU from working.

But that's just my theory.

Since OP said they like theories, I'm going to agree with this one and add something that seems to get overlooked for Haswell/Broadwell: They have integrated voltage regulation. When this starts to fail, some truly bizarre things can happen that most of us aren't used to associating with CPU trouble. I've not had this particular problem, but considering that the CPU itself has separate regulation for the iGPU (to enable control over the power to the iGPU independently of the other systems) it is not out of the realm of reason that this is your point of failure.

The how and why of this problem rearing it's head when it has could just be coincidence relating to time, power cycling, or any number of things.

I'm actually not sure at what point orange upgraded the microcode. I thought it's a separate download from intel direct

But overall, The microcode shouldn't have anything to do with the voltage, that definitely wouldn't have been changed, because it's a fixed valued mathematically determined FOR the hardware, they would never consider changing it unless it affected the durability/ reliability of the silicon

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #58 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:20:43 »

Haha, you're close tp4! Mum has a silent i3 6??? box which is more than fast enough to play solitaire, I bought that and retired her C2D when my 2600k mobo died as she wouldn't be getting a hand down anytime soon.

Dad's long gone, sister has no interest in computers and does everything on her phone and my cousin, aunty and gran all have laptops so there is literally no-one to give it to

@nugglets interesting theory. I wonder what voltages the previous owner's 4770 made the BIOS use before I pressed save... If it had permanently failed that would be more understandable than it working twice not quite randomly on the new board which gave me hope. I wonder if there are iGPU auto-overclock options on either board that could get it working... Thanks for the idea!

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #59 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:32:31 »

I'm not 100% sure when the microcode update happened either but it was in Windows updates at the time I was doing them. This is abnormal but so is a huge flaw like Spectre!

I have a bad habit of installing updates and drivers at the same time rather than rebooting every time it asks. Usually works OK, if not just reinstall them and it's not really a problem. I pressed restart after installing the iGPU and chipset drivers and some windows updates and that was the last I saw from the iGPU on that board. I then updated the BIOS hoping it would match and work but it didn't. Then I downgraded the BIOS and it didn't boot at all, until I bought a replacement chip with the old version on.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #60 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:38:27 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Fri, 09 March 2018, 08:20:43

Haha, you're close tp4! Mum has a silent i3 6???

Dad's long gone, sister has no interest in computers and does everything on her phone and my cousin, aunty and gran all have laptops so there is literally no-one to give it to

Did ah...

Did u talk to Mom_Orange about going 100% Veggie @ 10% fats.. !!

Laptop-generation.. sheesh, wait till they hit their 30s, and can't see worth a damn on a 15 inch screen.

Ya'll remember 15 inch? that's PRE 2000s

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #61 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 09:18:23 »

Nope, not going to happen. As she puts it "I don't drink or smoke so I'm not giving up my last fun in life - unhealthy food". After a life of eating western crap-food she too would rather die than suffer the inevitable brain rot it will cause.

I remember, and I'd take an old 15 inch 1024x768 over the new physically shorter 1280x800 wide-screen budget laptop crap any day!

tp4tissue · « **Reply #62 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 09:28:02 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Fri, 09 March 2018, 09:18:23

Nope, not going to happen. As she puts it "I don't drink or smoke so I'm not giving up my last fun in life - unhealthy food". After a life of eating western crap-food she too would rather die than suffer the inevitable brain rot it will cause.

I remember, and I'd take an old 15 inch 1024x768 over the new physically shorter 1280x800 wide-screen budget laptop crap any day!

The smallest one should go these days imho is 40 inch..

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #63 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 09:41:07 »

There's a hole in my desk for a monitor and my 20 inch 4:3 fits that hole width ways. When the monitor dies I can either find two widescreens to fill the hole better or I'll probably have to rearrange my entire room - really not looking forward to that day either way.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #64 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 10:01:50 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Fri, 09 March 2018, 09:41:07

There's a hole in my desk for a monitor and my 20 inch 4:3 fits that hole width ways. When the monitor dies I can either find two widescreens to fill the hole better or I'll probably have to rearrange my entire room - really not looking forward to that day either way.

Build a standing desk on wheelz, Wallmount 3x, 75 inch tvs..

Stand back 10 feet.

Free yo'self..

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #65 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 10:32:46 »

There isn't a wall in this room big enough for three 75 inchers!

Back on topic - mobo A doesn't like hot swapping BIOS chips, pull it out and it crashes. No iGPU overclocking options either, that must have been mobo alpha (R.I.P.)

Carcharocles · « **Reply #66 on:** Fri, 09 March 2018, 19:29:50 »

Is there any chance the problematic microcode update was pushed on January 4th of this year? And how soon after that update did you start having problems?

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #67 on:** Sat, 10 March 2018, 00:27:23 »

Let's assume it was. The failure was instant - it worked using standard VGA drivers, then I installed the proper driver, rebooted and it hasn't worked since (apart from twice when the second board probably thought it was another CPU - first time I turned it off, second I went into bios and saved and it died...)

Whatever you're going to suggest is worth a try!

Leslieann · « **Reply #68 on:** Sat, 10 March 2018, 04:46:36 »

Was the second board on the same windows install as before or had up to date drivers on it?
UFI boards can be controlled through drivers, so I;m wondering if when you booted it up, in installed updated firmware onto the new board.

Keep in mind, I have no idea if this is what happened, just a theory, but it makes me wonder if a fresh board with an older copy of windows, or linux would allow it to work. At least until that board also got updated. If that is the case, it makes me also wonder if you could push a different microcode update into the board using Linux, if there is one.

Leslieann · « **Reply #69 on:** Sat, 10 March 2018, 05:16:37 »

So I got to thinking about this more and decided to do some follow up.

One of the reasons Intel told vendors to stop installing the meltdown and specter patch was it was causing system reboots. What was less covered is that it has also been causing some systems to not boot at all (usually AMD). While everyone talks CPU on this, Nvidia released a Specter patch for their GPUs because while not vulnerable, it was an attack pathway or something, so there is a connection.

Unfortunately if it is this, other than trying a fresh Linux install or a fresh windows Install, I'm not entirely sure how to go about fixing it. If you have a spare drive it may be worth a shot, I know Mint will install microcode upon boot, maybe do an install with a dedicated card, then reboot with the igpu and dedicated removed or just see if you can get both sources to output video. At least that would tell you it's not damaged and may get a fix soon.

Looks like Microsoft has gotten pissed at vendors for not issuing code updates and is now putting updates directly on their site for end users. May be worth checking out.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3259924/security/microsoft-will-host-intels-spectre-and-meltdown-patches.html

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #70 on:** Sat, 10 March 2018, 05:43:39 »

It stopped working in the second board before I tried booting windows, one thing I didn't ask was what OS the previous owner was running but it was a gaming rig so windows and I'd imagine it was up to date. Though if the box was replaced a month before it was put up for sale it might not be up to date enough...

Interesting find on the AMD thing - so many people asking the same two simple questions makes it hard to find anything useful about iGPUs not working.

I was looking for firmware updates for Linux but the last ones were from November. No harm in trying a live DVD though - something to do tonight. Thanks for looking

Leslieann · « **Reply #71 on:** Sat, 10 March 2018, 15:23:39 »

If I have some more spare time I'll see what else I can dig up.
Pretty sure Mint had one for December or January, I can check later tonight.

Again, I don't claim to know that much about all of this and like you said, the net is flooded with info at the moment with any keywords related to it. I'm almost thinking that limiting the search to more tech oriented sites may help, Puget systems, Bleeping computer, sites of that nature as opposed to just randomly letting Google pull from places like Microsoft's support forums which can be flooded with non-tech people asking about normal issues.

You know...
That other board, while odd it worked then didn't, that may be the best clue and I should have caught it before.
Something in the bios is reacting to the processor and flipping something the wrong way. I would bet if you install a different chip, go into the bios, save, then swap your chip back in, it would work again. At least until you went in and saved again. It could be something is wrong with your chip, but it could also be that your model is an oddball and triggering something. Maybe your processor is just not well supported or Intel sent out wrong info... I'm not sure, but instead of looking at microcode and such (even though that may have caused it), add your specific processor to the search (leave off the I7), that may narrow it down enough to find the cause. Not sure about you, but all my searches have been Intel and the gpu, and never specified the processor itself.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #72 on:** Sat, 10 March 2018, 16:45:23 »

I was looking on the Intel download site, has old versions but no newer. Wouldn't rule out a backdoor distribution channel to distro makers much like hardware vendors though.

The CPU's name is equally bogged down with endless two paragraph mini 'reviews' detailing how it's too late, low clocked and pointless, same with the codename broadwell. The main problem is people believed these reviews and hardly anyone bought the CPU and those who did are gamers so no iGPU! Motherboard support is rubbish but Asus is supposedly the least bad...

I did post a 'WT buy/borrow s1150 CPU' thread here to find something to test with but unsurprisingly no replies, $75 for a used celeron on eBay is not happening either.

I'm too tired to look tonight and tomorrow is mother's day so this will have to wait - Patch Tuesday is this week, isn't it?

)

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #73 on:** Sun, 11 March 2018, 04:26:29 »

Woke up to an obvious thought - they probably released a Mint ISO with the 'broken' January firmware, which Intel literally pulled so it disappeared from their site. Hopefully Mint weren't so thorough in their cleanup...

Leslieann · « **Reply #74 on:** Sun, 11 March 2018, 19:29:57 »

Try a few of the various distros, if not Mint, I bet a few of them have it still in them.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #75 on:** Tue, 13 March 2018, 06:49:35 »

New BIOS from ASRock - looked like a good start to the day!

After messing about with resetting and changing BIOS options, deleting devices, and un/reinstalling drivers it hasn't changed anything relevant but I guess I should be happy now that my graphically challenged CPU runs slower too. Just in case someone develops an exploit...

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #76 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 10:31:46 »

So was anyone still going for spontaneous hardware failure? How about a real, physical break? Well congratulations if you were because that's what the problem is! The reflection is of a scratched black box with white writing, note the dodginess in the bottom left corner of the big chip

Now will it still work at all once I reattach the heatspreader or has my curiosity killed it completely

tp4tissue · « **Reply #77 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 11:05:12 »

what did you use to delid ?

You might've damaged it as you delidded.

Using it temporarily is fine with just thermal paste between the die and ihs, but you will need to get Liquid Ultra if you want to use it long term.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #78 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 11:12:42 »

I have a 3D printed tool, the original delid was done on day two after a night of stress testing to confirm not DOA.

Surprisingly it just passed the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool with a max temp of 45* C so I'm going to leave it as-is for now. I remember saying I'd check back how the gelid lasted when I did it, but it never made the year...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #79 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 11:36:37 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sun, 01 April 2018, 11:12:42

I have a 3D printed tool, the original delid was done on day two after a night of stress testing to confirm not DOA.

Surprisingly it just passed the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool with a max temp of 45* C so I'm going to leave it as-is for now. I remember saying I'd check back how the gelid lasted when I did it, but it never made the year...

Try polishing off the black rubber from the ihs and the chip.. maybe it needs to make better contact

is that left corner warped ? can you feel it with your finger.

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #80 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 11:47:26 »

Yes the bottom corner is cracked - no doubt about that. If it can run prime95 for six hours I'll call myself lucky and assume that's the corner the GPU is hidden in but I can't see that happening.

One strange quirk, Core Temp (which has always seemed reasonably accurate over recent testing) is showing the CPU using around 90W. It's not overclocked and it's not using the iGPU so shouldn't be close to the 65W it's spec'd at...

tp4tissue · « **Reply #81 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 12:17:42 »

Quote from: suicidal_orange on Sun, 01 April 2018, 11:47:26

Yes the bottom corner is cracked - no doubt about that. If it can run prime95 for six hours I'll call myself lucky and assume that's the corner the GPU is hidden in but I can't see that happening.

One strange quirk, Core Temp (which has always seemed reasonably accurate over recent testing) is showing the CPU using around 90W. It's not overclocked and it's not using the iGPU so shouldn't be close to the 65W it's spec'd at...

coretemp just guesses. .

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #82 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 12:25:23 »

It does, but usually it's pretty good while today it's hopeless and getting worse - hovering around 98W now

)

45 minutes in, not dead yet...

Leslieann · « **Reply #83 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 17:30:43 »

I remember the days of exposed core Athlons.
While I only killed one by dropping a heat sink on it, we saw a lot of dead processors, enough that I refuse to delid.

Though when I think about it, considering how much hardware I've killed over the years, through watercooling, overclocking or other problems, you would think I'd be more willing.

)

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #84 on:** Sun, 01 April 2018, 18:40:06 »

Yes good times, the old 1ghz AXIA with the 100 -> 133mhz guaranteed OC for starters followed by the XPs with their laser cut bridges to play with. Can't say I miss the whine of a 60mm Delta fan though! I never managed to crush an Athlon yet I've managed this with the heatspreader reattached and the chip mounted and powered on - still can't believe it.

Seems this CPU is still good at stock clocks but the new BIOS doesn't like even the slightest OC with powersaving enabled and the last downgrade failed and even if it did work I still don't have a GPU. Having looked I'd be better off buying a Ryzen APU but again I'm reminded of my stupid decision to buy this Ill fated junk which was the last hoorah of DDR3, so the APU is not as cheap as it should be. I could always pay to downgrade to a 4xxx?!

tp4tissue · « **Reply #85 on:** Mon, 02 April 2018, 09:55:58 »

I want slotted back..

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #86 on:** Mon, 02 April 2018, 10:04:49 »

Haha, my first family computer was a slotted Pentium 2. I never even took it out of the slot

Leslieann · « **Reply #87 on:** Mon, 02 April 2018, 16:25:12 »

You have no idea the hatred I have for slotted, such an inefficient setup for single processor systems.
On the other hand, made for some really cool and really cheap dual processor systems, many of which could overclock like crazy.

Blaise170 · « **Reply #88 on:** Tue, 03 April 2018, 08:27:32 »

I don't think I've ever owned a slotted nor delidded. I always figured that I could spend $50 on the parts for delidding properly, or I could just spend that $50 on a better CPU...

)

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #89 on:** Tue, 03 April 2018, 12:18:09 »

Good thinking, except there was no better CPU for the job at time of purchase. There is now the Ryzen APUs have been released but that's a year late!

Leslieann · « **Reply #90 on:** Tue, 03 April 2018, 18:04:13 »

Quote from: Blaise170 on Tue, 03 April 2018, 08:27:32

I don't think I've ever owned a slotted nor delidded. I always figured that I could spend $50 on the parts for delidding properly, or I could just spend that $50 on a better CPU... )

Agreed... To a point.
Very few things really max out current hardware... Not because of technology, but because what would be the point of designing something that doesn't work with current hardware, or worse, if it can't run on high end, imagine how bad it would be on low end.

On the other hand, some people just "NEED" all they can get regardless of cost and there are some use cases where it is beneficial such as 3d renders and video editing. If you are doing that on a regular basis though, I HIGHLY recommend having a second machine, being able to offload your long term workload to a secondary system is fantastic, even if it's a bit slower since it leaves your primary system free.


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