Lets face it, many elite boards are cheap

[wellington1869]

Its something I've been thinking about after receiving (what I consider) two bum boards in a row this week.

Lets face it, many "elite" boards out there, in this industry, just arent. They're perfectly fine boards in some ways: they look great, they click, they're shiny. And they'll probably work for most people.

But point of fact is a lot of them have really cheap innards. And a surprising number of them dont stand up to scrutiny, testing, or performance that their marketing hype often promises. "Elite!" "Gaming!" "Quality!".  The das III couldnt support wpm over 100 and yet claimed to help increase your typing speed.  The abs claimed  to be a gaming board with 6-key rollover and could barely support 2 simultaneous keys when it came out.  Etc.

They have mass market guts, prone to mass market limitations.

What justified their price, let alone their hype? Mainly a shiny exterior and hyperbolic marketing.

If you want real manufacturing quality (topres) you pay really incredibly ungodly prices for it. The topre is one of the few boards which manages to look even prettier if you open it up. They even polished up the screws on its pcb.

Or old world quality from the 1980s in the unicomp boards (which are dying a slow death from lack of innovation in board styles/models).

So there are a few exceptions.  And a few cherry boards get lucky (the NKRO line from Filco seems okay).

Anyway just nursing a broken heart.

Next time I buy a keyboard, it will have to be either on an NKRO promise (At this point I consider that NKRO means "capable of being typed on") or letting another guniea pig buy the board and do scan limit tests on it.

I'm done paying $100 for boards that perform the same as $20 deals on amazon.  I mean nothing wrong with that - except for the $80 differential, in my view.  I want to get more than shine and clicks for $100 and above; I'd rather hold out for "elite" controller-boards too.

You see thats what I thought I was buying. So another sucker wises up.

[maxlugar]

Well said Welly.

For a while, it seemed like you drunk to Kool-Aid.

I have to lol when I read comments like "these otherwise great boards" because compared to many of the older "classic" keyboards, much of the mass produced keyboards  from Asia are toys.  I would not be surprised if the guts of the Filcos are produced by Chinese factories with the final assembly taking place in Taiwan.

I like they Filco Zero with Fukkas but it feels very similar to the Solitek 6600

[rdjack21]

And you know something if you wanted to buy that old Model M brand new manufactured today (quality manufactured that is) you would be paying a similar amount for them as the Topre is today.

I have opened up some of these other "elite" boards as well and I will tell you they do not look so good once you open up a Topre.

[wellington1869]

And you know something if you wanted to buy that old Model M brand new manufactured today (quality manufactured that is) you would be paying a similar amount for them as the Topre is today.

thats true. NIB they're in the multiple 100's of bucks range like topres.

Better luck next time Welly - Geekhackers dust themselves off in a week and get back to checking out Ebay!

lol, thats what i'm afraid of.  

[rdjack21]

You have to watch ebay but man every time I do I find more stuff that I want than I can afford.

That reminds me I need to go and see if I can find myself a Model F. I went to the Goodwill computer museum and got to put my hands on a XT version of the Model F. I have to say it was nice. It actually felt as if it was lighter than the model M.

[wellington1869]

It actually felt as if it was lighter than the model M.

thats what the F folks say. I remember it vaguely (I used it last in like '84, lol) being very fluid to type on.

[rdjack21]

being very fluid to type on.

Yes that is it. I did not get to spend enough time with it to get a really good feel of it but it was enough to make me want to try and find one. I may even go the XT route after I read up on some stuff on Linux keyboard configuration because I know I saw something that makes be believe I can get the XT working fairly easyly with Linux.

[maxlugar]

thats what the F folks say. I remember it vaguely (I used it last in like '84, lol) being very fluid to type on.

Key presses on the Model F XT 83-key keyboard  require slightly less force than the 84-key PC AT keyboard and considerably less force than the Model M.   I have tried several Model F XT keyboards and currently own one that I use with a converter when my Dell D430 is docked at the office.

The key action on the Model F XT is too notchy for my tastes.  I find it actually too clicky with each key press resonating a loud metallic ping.  The layout is also pretty much useless unless you are a hunt an peck typist.

An 84-key PC AT keyboard in good condition is more refined and although the key layout is archaic, most touch typists can adapt to it relatively quickly.  It will also work with any modern PC using a $15 ps/2 to USB converter.  Until recently, my daily driver was the 84-key PC AT keyboard.  I type between 80 and 90 wpm, with bursts occasionally exceeding 100 wpm, and never experienced any of the issues that seem to plague the Das, ABS, and Filco Zero.

I am currently enjoying my HHKB Professional 2 and Topre Realforce 87U. They are exceptional keyboards, but I do miss the glorious mechancial action of the IBM PC AT 84-key keyboard now and then.

[microsoft windows]

You should just look around in the computer trash and get a Model M. They're the best and the cheapest.

[ch_123]

You should just look around in the computer trash and get a Model M. They're the best and the cheapest.

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried any of the aforementioned keyboards on the thread other than a Model M?

[quadibloc]

NIB they're in the multiple 100's of bucks range like topres.

Oh, you mean actual Model M keyboards, made by Lexmark or IBM. Yes, but that's only because they are rare collectors' items: they are not being made any more.

Unicomp keyboards are still under $100 U.S., and the minor changes they've made to them to cut costs don't appear to have had any real impact on quality.

So a quality keyboard with tactile feel, new in the box, does not have to cost a fortune.

[ch_123]

Agreed, the Unicomps are like a Russian tank - the finish is crap, but it will work forever.

[wellington1869]

Is it that our expectations are too high?  

I'd be okay with "classes" of keyboards (like beginner, intermediate, and expert). We have that on so many products anyway. But I'd like that to be declared up front, thats all, so I know what i'm paying for.

I guess thats what it comes down to - i'm not looking for perfect keyboards; i'm looking not to get blindsided after I pay for it.

I think it should be standard operating procedure for any expensive ('elite') keyboard to print specifications on its product page including scanrate information, controller make and model, nkey infromation, etc.  So far they post nkey but not much else.

If they post that information up front, they can make any kind of keyboard they like. Even the das. Cuz at least then we would have been warned.

[rdjack21]

Agreed, the Unicomps are like a Russian tank - the finish is crap, but it will work forever.

I don't think I can agree with this. I have had two of them have keys go dead on me in the last couple of years.

But I do agree that they are better than the majority of the junk on the market.

[wellington1869]

Agreed, the Unicomps are like a Russian tank - the finish is crap, but it will work forever.

i'm not sure those russian tanks were all that great... the finnish took them out in the street on foot  

(snuck up behind them and stuck grenades under them wrapped in greased up socks.)

but yes, the unicomp is a tank. we should say japanese tank - it would get great mileage and never break down ;-D

[ch_123]

Ok, so maybe the better analogy is that it's like the AK-47 of keyboards? Not the best, but they work...

[microsoft windows]

Oh, you mean actual Model M keyboards, made by Lexmark or IBM. Yes, but that's only because they are rare collectors' items: they are not being made any more.

Unicomp keyboards are still under $100 U.S., and the minor changes they've made to them to cut costs don't appear to have had any real impact on quality.

So a quality keyboard with tactile feel, new in the box, does not have to cost a fortune.

Model M's aren't rare. There are a few in the public library, a 122 key one in a farm equipment store, and some at my house. And that's just what I have seen in the town I live in. And since they're old and ugly, I doubt it's too hard to find them in the garbage either.

[JBert]

Yes that is it. I did not get to spend enough time with it to get a really good feel of it but it was enough to make me want to try and find one. I may even go the XT route after I read up on some stuff on Linux keyboard configuration because I know I saw something that makes be believe I can get the XT working fairly easyly with Linux.

I started a thread on that, see Parkbd - Connecting XT keyboard to a PC in Linux.

[quadibloc]

Model M's aren't rare. There are a few in the public library, a 122 key one in a farm equipment store, and some at my house. And that's just what I have seen in the town I live in. And since they're old and ugly, I doubt it's too hard to find them in the garbage either.

One of mine was bought NIB from an IBM Home Computing store, the rest from thrift shops. I meant ones that are NIB today - that is, someone just found the boxes in a warehouse, or someone bought one, and never opened the box all those years, to sell it to collectors today.

Because I was responding to a post that said NIB Model M's cost $200 nowadays, and my initial reaction was to say, hey, Unicomp keyboards are under $100 - then I realized that's what he must have meant.

[timw4mail]

You know in some ways, things like this make me glad that I've cheaped out on the Compaq and iOne 'boards, rather than the Filcos, because the Filcos aren't really that much higher of quality to warrant the difference in price.

I can't judge all Model M keyboards, but the one I have from 1987 is definitely on the higher end of quality these days. Sure, it pings like crazy, and the springs are getting mushy, but hey, it still works. Although I like my new set of blank black keys from Unicomp, unfortunately, the keys make it look cheaper.

The Model F is just on another level of quality entirely. In my mind, the Model F is the perfect balance of quality with excess. The keyboard is older than I am, but still has a very crisp, albeit noisy, mechanism. If it weren't for the fact that I'm getting too used to this Compaq keyboard, the Model F would still be my daily driver.

If Topre keyboards are on the same level of quality as the Model F keyboard, I guess I can understand the cost.

Looking at some of the "cheap" keyboards that you can get used, such as the Compaq MX 11800, and the Dell AT101W, I can see how the keyboards are still of decent quality, and decent price. The problem is when you go cheaper than that, such as the Chicony I've got. Any cheaper than the Dell or the Compaq, and no matter what the mechanism, you haven't got a good keyboard anymore.

While companies still seek to make things even cheaper, I'm starting to go the other way, to try to find things like double-shot keycaps, lasered keys, and possibly, metal keys.

When did we start to get so used to absolute garbage?

[InSanCen]

I'm all for quality. While I love my "New toy" I hate (And I mean hate)  the "rattly" quality of the keys.

Give me a Black, Blank 1391406, with a lighter keypress, and I will happily shell out £250. I know it will last me a large portion of the rest of my natural life. £250 over that kind of timescale? Factor in not needing to buy another board unless I want to? It's Pocket change.

[timw4mail]

If you type many hours a day, it should have been nice if you could get a keyboard like a tailored suit. "What do you want, sir?" "One hhkb layout please with two extra modifier keys, Model F capacitive switches and trackpoint, thank you."

That would be amazing...too bad keyboards are too complex to do such individualized short runs...

[spremino]

That would be amazing...too bad keyboards are too complex to do such individualized short runs...

Why not? A keyboard could be designed with flexibility in mind. Indeed they already are. Ripster showed that you can squeeze 4 more keys out of a US Model M, but that flexibility was there to cope with different standards instead of customers' needs.

[AndrewZorn]

oh, if the hhkb had keys in the corners...

i keep fearing that when i buy one, the hhkb pro 3 will come out, with, SURPRISE: keys where there was previously wasted space.

[ch_123]

AFAIK, the HHKB layout was designed to be the ultimate layout for an Emacs user, and was based in particular on the Sun Type 3. I somehow doubt that they're going to change the layout around that much.

[maxlugar]

If you type many hours a day, it should have been nice if you could get a keyboard like a tailored suit. "What do you want, sir?" "One hhkb layout please with two extra modifier keys, Model F capacitive switches and trackpoint, thank you."

I don't care what they say about you webwit (and they say a lot), you do have pretty good taste when it comes to keyboards.

That is indeed a "fantasy" wish-list keyboard.  Except, I'm not sure I agree with the trackpoint - maybe a trackball instead.  

It's very doubtful we'll ever see Model F technology used in modern keyboard production.  That's why I continue to hoard, um, I mean stock up when I'm lucky enough to stumble on a  PC AT 84-key Model F in good condition.

I'll leave the 83-key PC/XT Model F bricks for the rest of you  

[maxlugar]

That's what I thought when I 'shopped lowpoly's board:

I hated trackpoints. However, since then I discovered there are actually great trackpoints like on my M13, and I changed opinion. But if this custom suit fits you better...

I'll need to wear it for a few days to make sure.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to leave all the labels on in case I need to return it  

[ch_123]

I don't care what they say about you webwit (and they say a lot), you do have pretty good taste when it comes to keyboards.

That is indeed a "fantasy" wish-list keyboard.  Except, I'm not sure I agree with the trackpoint - maybe a trackball instead.  

Problem is that it's hard to get a trackball of a useful size into a keyboard. Plus there's the huge advantage of being able to move the cursor without moving one's hand from the home row. I think alot of people get put off Trackpoints, either by bad knock offs, or really old worn out IBM ones. To them I'd say - try a Thinkpad and learn how to adjust sensitivity... You'd wonder how you used a laptop without them.

[o2dazone]

If you type many hours a day, it should have been nice if you could get a keyboard like a tailored suit. "What do you want, sir?" "One hhkb layout please with two extra modifier keys, Model F capacitive switches and trackpoint, thank you."

Similar to how I feel. Mechanical keyboards aren't designed to be just "good enough". A $5 Rosewill keyboard does the job of $250 Realforce. They're made to treat whatever RSI you might have, whatever fascination you might posses about collecting old keyboards, or whatever hobby that got you into this. I'm a fan of making my passion as interesting as possible. If all I wanted to do was "get the job done" I probably wouldn't be investing 25 times the cost of a regular keyboard to do exactly the same thing (give or take a few functions).

[spremino]

I think alot of people get put off Trackpoints, either by bad knock offs, or really old worn out IBM ones. To them I'd say - try a Thinkpad and learn how to adjust sensitivity... You'd wonder how you used a laptop without them.

That's what I was thinking. I'm happy that there are nice trackpads out there. If a trackpad works smoothly as advertised, than it's a nice device indeed.

[ch_123]

I was talking about Trackpoints, not Trackpads - the latter I emphatically hate. I believe there's a ring in hell where people are forced for the rest of eternity to use Trackpads to push a mouse cursor to the top of an unfeasibly large screen, only for the mouse to drop down to the bottom when they nearly make it...

[timw4mail]

I was talking about Trackpoints, not Trackpads - the latter I emphatically hate. I believe there's a ring in hell where people are forced for the rest of eternity to use Trackpads to push a mouse cursor to the top of an unfeasibly large screen, only for the mouse to drop down to the bottom when they nearly make it...

Okay...

Personally, I'm more fond of touchpads. I like being able to do a two-finger scroll, and to be able to click using gestures or the buttons.

A trackpoint just doesn't work for me because of that.

[wellington1869]

I need to try out an m13 one of these days. Especially if it has genuine trackpoint. Love that ibm trackpoint. Its like no other nub.

[Rajagra]

Okay...

Personally, I'm more fond of touchpads. I like being able to do a two-finger scroll, and to be able to click using gestures or the buttons.

A trackpoint just doesn't work for me because of that.

Have both. Oh, wait, that's exactly what IBM does!

The purpose of the Trackpoint is to be as easy to reach as a key on the home row.

As for touchpad gestures, that's a relatively new thing. Has it reached the stage where the extra functionality makes up for the lack of precision in movement?

I can imagine some crazy arrangement where some poor soul has a trackpoint for quick access, a trackpad for scrolling, a mouse for fast, precise movement and a graphics tablet for drawing.

(Glances down nervously at his own desk and starts whistling.)

[ch_123]

Okay...

Personally, I'm more fond of touchpads. I like being able to do a two-finger scroll, and to be able to click using gestures or the buttons.

A trackpoint just doesn't work for me because of that.

Don't worry, that was a joke. I know you don't get them, but other people do =P

Bonus marks to those who get the Classics reference.

I can imagine some crazy arrangement where some poor soul has a trackpoint for quick access, a trackpad for scrolling, a mouse for fast, precise movement and a graphics tablet for drawing.

That's me... I use a mouse on the rare occasions where I'm playing games, the trackpad is for scrolling, and the trackpoint is for everything else.

[timw4mail]

Touchpads aren't without issues, a lot of touchpads are really insensitive, making it a lot of work to move the cursor, and that's not a good thing.

Now, if only manufacturers could remember how to keep the touchpad from interfering with typing...seems like they used to know how to do that...

[microsoft windows]

The best way to solve that problem is to just have no touchpad. Trackpoints are much better. And if people don't like them, there're always mice.

[timw4mail]

The best way to solve that problem is to just have no touchpad. Trackpoints are much better. And if people don't like them, there're always mice.

So, we agree that there is no be all end all pointing device?

[wellington1869]

So, we agree that there is no be all end all pointing device?

who said that? Logitech mx600 FTW!
(seriously, i love this thing