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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Infinite north on Wed, 19 May 2010, 20:53:04

Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Infinite north on Wed, 19 May 2010, 20:53:04
Tell me things you hate on keyboards, what keys you think are poorly placed or worthless to begin with. What makes your fingers sore. What do you hate about qwerty dvorak or any other layout. Any other things you need to get off your chest is fine too, as long as it's keyboard related.

I will start. I hate all the punctuation being pushed off on the right side on qwerty boards. I hate how split ergonomic boards don't have repeat letters in the separation so I can use my left hand to hit y or my right hand to hit b.

(http://anger-management-workshops.com/wp-content/uploads/guy%20throwing%20keyboard.jpg)
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Brodie337 on Wed, 19 May 2010, 21:04:36
Keyboard rage thread?

I'm so in.

I'm sick of manufacturers mauling the standard layout on desktop keyboards. It's understandable on a laptop, where space is limited, but on a desktop you either have the keys in the right place, or not at all. Logitech and Apple are probably the worst offenders here, especially the the apple keyboards with the arrow keys tucked up under the right shift.

Another thing that pisses me is half size function keys. ALOT of modern keyboards are shrinking them, with a massive amount of empty space around, so it's not like they have to.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 19 May 2010, 21:06:51
L-shaped enter keys that force backslash off into someplace awkward. HUGE ENTER KEYS SERVE NO PURPOSE, USE THE STANDARD HORIZONTAL LAYOUT. Or at least ISO. something that doesn't waste a perfectly good key space.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 19 May 2010, 21:16:06
The "OS" keys that cause evil things to happen when you're playing a game with CTRL and ALT mapped to important functions.

Inverted-L enter keys.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: HaaTa on Wed, 19 May 2010, 21:19:10
Yup, Phaedrus summed up my hatred for the L-Enter.

Worn out ****ty ass rubber crap dome trash keyboards, and the lame ass companies that make me use them.

XKB for using the NumLock as a shift modifier. When I press Shift+1 on the NumPad when the NumLock is off I want SHIFT+END not frick'n 1!

NumLock being turned on by damn default when you boot up your PC (yeah, you can turn it off, but I have to turn it off god dammit).
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Wed, 19 May 2010, 21:27:03
Logitech.

And/Also Multimedia keyboards that usually provide "quiet" as a selling feature.


For the record, I think L shaped enter keys are cool.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: megarat on Wed, 19 May 2010, 21:37:58
What a great thread idea.

I hate, to whit:


Technically I get frustrated by non-standard layouts as well, but I can't say that I hate them (other than the factors mentioned above, for the reasons mentioned above).  My frustration just comes from the cost of adapting, and just because I'm not used to something that doesn't mean it sucks.  And I wouldn't want to discourage manufacturers from experimenting with new (and potentially awesome) key layouts.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 19 May 2010, 22:04:21
Really thin flat keys without the cylindric shape, cheap rubber domes, european enter keys, really small backspace keys, the ctrl and function keys swapped (like in thinkpads and macbooks), two windows keys (you only need ONE)... and that's all I can think of.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 19 May 2010, 22:17:33
Hate:

-L shaped enter keys
-tiny backspace keys
-stepped capslock key (i prefer flat, also because i remap capslock to function as control)
-lack of windows keys (i use them a lot)
-lack of matching right side keys for all control keys
-spacebars that are too long (I need to reach alt keys with my thumbs)
-lack of numberpad (i use it a lot)
-nubless home keys, or nubs on wrong home keys (like on old apple keyboards).

This is just about key layouts, right? THe list gets a lot longer if we include other things like key feel or keycap quality.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 20 May 2010, 04:18:55
I despise keyboards from manufacturers who claim to have Macintosh compatibility, yet mislabel the keys in a way that proves no one ever used it on a Macintosh before they shipped.

ALT = OPT
Win = command
CTRL = CTRL

CTRL is NOT cloverleaf command. Logitech, are you listening?
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 20 May 2010, 06:04:40
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;184444
L-shaped enter keys that force backslash off into someplace awkward. HUGE ENTER KEYS SERVE NO PURPOSE, USE THE STANDARD HORIZONTAL LAYOUT. Or at least ISO. something that doesn't waste a perfectly good key space.


Simple reason why it was used -

(http://blogs.redding.com/mbeauchamp/IBM%20Selectric.jpg)

Note that the QWERTY row had no equivalent to the ]} of modern keyboards. Thus the L-shaped enter catered to those familiar with the Selectric whilst accommodating an extra key.

In also had the advantage of catering to those familiar with the ANSI enter AND the ISO enter as it covered the area used by both.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 20 May 2010, 06:22:54
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;184444
L-shaped enter keys that force backslash off into someplace awkward. HUGE ENTER KEYS SERVE NO PURPOSE, USE THE STANDARD HORIZONTAL LAYOUT. Or at least ISO. something that doesn't waste a perfectly good key space.

LOL, you just outed yourself as a coder. ;)

That drives me nuts too.

I also can't stand a mixture of half sized and full sized arrow keys on compact keyboards. Uggghh, make them all half sized or all full sized. This is my ASUS netbook.

I'm also not a fan of the MacBook putting the fn key where I expect the CTRL key to be. End keys should always be sacred because that's how touch typists make sense of the layout.

Key nubs or nipples that are smack in the middle so that you hit them straight on when you hit the F or J keys.

Older (mostly Apple) keyboards that put the nubs on the D and K keys.

The Windows key.

Spacebars that rattle or feel different than the rest of the keyboard.

Backspace or return keys that rattle.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 20 May 2010, 06:31:18
Quote from: ch_123;184594
Show Image
(http://blogs.redding.com/mbeauchamp/IBM%20Selectric.jpg)

Someone help me here. I can't remember what the "INDEX" key does on a Selectric.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: nanu on Thu, 20 May 2010, 16:21:57

the first thing i think of when i need these is not to check my keyboard. i understand how if you had a lot of devices or were mobile integrated devices do come in handy
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Viett on Thu, 20 May 2010, 16:37:56
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 20 May 2010, 18:09:15
Flimsy keyboards that feel like your finger will go right through them.
Look at this lady's disgust at how limp Apple keyboards are!

Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 20 May 2010, 18:17:02
I'd rather one of those aluminium keyboards than one of those crappy Dells that practically breaks apart if you look at it wrong...
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: asfogh on Thu, 20 May 2010, 18:30:08
custom buttons rather than typical keycaps for multimedia keys -- i echo that for sure

two things that i hate: keyboards being light as ****

the numpad on the right instead of the left

where do you find those magical keyboards with the numpad on the right?
they dont exist, ive never seen one, im pretty psyched to get a tenkeyless and a numpad.. i used to just have an extra numpad hanging out on the left
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 20 May 2010, 18:43:59
Quote from: asfogh;185006
the numpad on the right instead of the left


You know... it never occured to me that the numpad on the right is probably a convention passed on down from when the computer mouse was not the dominant way of navigating.

For the first time I want a tenkeyless and an external numpad.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: washuai on Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:17:31
It may be an over sized gaming rubber dome, but I do like that you can put the MSFT sidewinder keypad on either side of the board.  Otherwise you have to pay more to get a tenkeyless than a full board, then even more for a number pad *grumble*.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: SuperPunch on Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:20:28
The distance between the function keys and the top row.  Why are they up there in no-mans land?  Put them down where my fingers can reach them.

The layout of a datacomp futaba I have.  One Alt key (below left shift), caps lock below right shift.  Space bar occupies the space of 10 standard keys.  Control where caps lock should be.  Enter key is HUGE (takes up as much space as WEASD). ESC is above the 7 on the numpad. Futaba switches. etc. etc.  It's just bad.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:24:12
Quote from: hyperlinked;185015
You know... it never occured to me that the numpad on the right is probably a convention passed on down from when the computer mouse was not the dominant way of navigating.

For the first time I want a tenkeyless and an external numpad.


A worryingly large amount of design decisions of the Model M layout were dictated by terminal keyboards and the Selectric typewriter...
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Morning Song on Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:32:44
Keyboard matrices where the arrow keys and the spacebar interfere with each other
Boards with differently shaped keys, so you can't rearrange them to make a dvorak layout. (Double hatred for keyboards where the letter keys actually don't fit in each others' spaces.)
Keys where the letters wear off
Nonstandard compacted layouts on desktop keyboards (Especially on wireless. Try to find a proper 104-key bluetooth keyboard. I don't think they exist!)
Scissor switch desktop keyboards. (I can understand if other people like them, but their increasing prevalence makes me mutter)
F-lock keys, doubly so when they're special-key-by-default
Rubber multimedia keys. I don't mind having extra keys (as long as the base layout is standard), but do they have to rubber lumps? Can't they be just like all the other keys on the keyboard?
Lack of diversity in buckling spring models
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:39:11
Quote from: Morning Song;185039
Boards with differently shaped keys, so you can't rearrange them to make a dvorak layout. (Double hatred for keyboards where the letter keys actually don't fit in each others' spaces.)

Extra hate for keyboards where all the letter keys are the same size and shape, but you can't swap them because the stems have locating pins at different angles for no obvious reason. (I mean you, Logitech G15. I'm glad I spilt coffee in you now.)
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: asfogh on Thu, 20 May 2010, 19:52:34
Quote from: Rajagra;185045
Extra hate for keyboards where all the letter keys are the same size and shape, but you can't swap them because the stems have locating pins at different angles for no obvious reason. (I mean you, Logitech G15. I'm glad I spilt coffee in you now.)



oh god this is freshly irritating for me. I wanted to put my F and J keys elsewhere purely for the bumps... obviously, those have special grooves and every other key is interchangeable

UGHHH

re: fkey person, definitely agreed.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: maetl on Thu, 20 May 2010, 20:26:09
– Numpad on the wrong side. I would really like to be able to have a numpad and a good amount of room for my mouse without spending a lot of money on a separate numpad.
– Caps Lock key next to A. Caps Lock is just not important enough to justify its use of that position. I would like to see Caps Lock moved to the left of left shift – think HHKB Fn key but on the opposite side.
– Enormous spacebar. I don't see why spacebar needs to occupy two thumbs worth of space and then some. Cut it down and give those modifier keys some room.
– Staggering. I know that it will never be changed, but my poor left hand still wishes that it would be.
– Blindingly bright LEDs. I do not need to know whether or not I have numlock on from space.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Morning Song on Fri, 21 May 2010, 02:07:01
Quote from: maetl;185073

– Caps Lock key next to A. Caps Lock is just not important enough to justify its use of that position. I would like to see Caps Lock moved to the left of left shift – think HHKB Fn key but on the opposite side.


This used to irk me, but it turns out there's a number of software things you can do to turn capslock into something actually useful! (Mine's left control) My personal preference is a program called SharpKeys
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: asfogh on Fri, 21 May 2010, 08:05:42
Forgot to add: lack of a replaceable cable.

The rarity in replaceable cables on things drives me up the wall. Is it so hard to have a USB jack on the keyboard instead of it just being in? I'm assuming it's not excessively technical to open the sucker up and rewire in a new cable if necessary, but while i could probably figure it out (and be crazy enough to want to), I shouldn't have to. Same with mouse, headphones, lalala. Just put a fricking jack in :(
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 21 May 2010, 08:19:05
Quote from: asfogh;185277
Forgot to add: lack of a replaceable cable.

The rarity in replaceable cables on things drives me up the wall. Is it so hard to have a USB jack on the keyboard instead of it just being in? I'm assuming it's not excessively technical to open the sucker up and rewire in a new cable if necessary, but while i could probably figure it out (and be crazy enough to want to), I shouldn't have to. Same with mouse, headphones, lalala. Just put a fricking jack in :(

When I first started here, I really didn't see the appeal of a detachable cable, but now after I got the HHKB, it  makes perfect sense, especially for small, portable keyboards.  It also helps when I want to clean it, since I can just unplug it right from the back.  One of the few "mods" I have done to keyboards was replacing the USB cable on the HHKB with a smaller, thicker one as I really don't like excess cable laying around.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 21 May 2010, 08:42:08
I realised yesterday I can unplug my HHKB Pro USB cable and plug it into my digicam. Standards are good things.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:09:21
Quote from: ch_123;185035
A worryingly large amount of design decisions of the Model M layout were dictated by terminal keyboards and the Selectric typewriter...
To my way of thinking, not enough of the design decisions followed these two sources.

In 1981, at the very beginning, they should have designed the IBM PC keyboard to have only 44 typing keys in the main typing area, in the same layout as the original Selectric... with a key having the function of the AltGr key being used, right from the beginning, on the U.S. keyboard, to type {, }, [, ], ~ and `.

That way, the Shift keys, the Enter key, and the Back Space key could have started out in their standard locations, and stayed there.

It shouldn't have taken until the Model M for IBM to say, "Gosh! We've got these 3270 terminals with twelve or twenty-four function keys, and someone might want to emulate them on a PC" and move from ten function keys to twelve. (Of course, the ten function keys on the PC were intended to correspond to a different group of non-programmable special-function keys on those terminals, which was even more confusing...)

Since the Model M has to go through gyrations to simulate an 84-key keyboard from the AT, some keys are useless as buttons for gaming, potentially creating incompatibilities with games written for the PC before the Model M keyboard came out. Switching to Scan Code Set 3 just was not an option. Which shows the importance of getting things right the first time.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: kriminal on Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:32:00
Quote from: HaaTa;184448


NumLock being turned on by damn default when you boot up your PC (yeah, you can turn it off, but I have to turn it off god dammit).


lol you can turn this off completely within the bios.

but i understand your peeve
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 21 May 2010, 09:34:40
I think there is a setting in Windows as well.  That is, if you use Windows.
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: nanu on Fri, 21 May 2010, 19:55:51
Quote
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10208&stc=1&d=1274478983)

wide angle trickery! how to thinnerize flicos
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 21 May 2010, 21:46:04
Quote from: ripster;185572
I'm not retired!  I'm the Chief Flight Director on the upcoming NASA Uranus Probe!  Our biggest problem is the large amount of gas we expect to encounter.


Are you sure it wasn't Ingo Swann's probe to jupiter (http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/1973JupiterRVProbe.html)?
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 21 May 2010, 22:10:53
We're ****ed anyway.
Here's the true reason why Europe is shaken by famines all the time, while the US economy is thriving:

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385">[/youtube]
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 22 May 2010, 01:09:24
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;185586
We're ****ed anyway.
Here's the true reason why Europe is shaken by famines all the time, while the US economy is thriving:


Haha, I love The Onion.


Wait... That's not The Onion!
Title: I need your *****y opinions in here, any keyboard
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 22 May 2010, 15:31:43
Fox News, The Onion, c'est la meme chose. Same overall contribution to society.