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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Arc'xer on Sun, 30 May 2010, 04:25:42

Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: Arc'xer on Sun, 30 May 2010, 04:25:42: I'm not currently going to buy since it is pretty expensive but sometime this summer I might consider the Topre.

But I do have some concerns over the purchase, currently I've been using the Tenkeyless Linear(MX Black). I will say that I do enjoy the switch it's not horrible and I don't hate it nor dislike it but sometimes it does become bothersome. I'll admit I do punch right through them depending on how much force I use, though I mostly see this with the Index/Middle finger rather than Ring/Pinkie. It's not so much that I have trouble typing, though I do find the blacks to resist sometimes and make me mistype letter or over type and get the wrong letter in place(like juce instead of juice). It's a switch that requires an appreciation of mindfulness and finger force to make the character show up.

And sometimes gaming I'll admit sometimes I don't watch the force so it resists the action. It's funny because it's sensitive and all but just sometimes it has this resistance that really even after all this time surprises you especially when you think back on it. Again not that I hate it nor feel that I wasted my money or anything I appreciate the quality MUCH better.

But at the same time I guess I've been wanting to try something new. I guess it's time for Topre but I do have some concerns. I have spent time reading the forum and wiki around on the Topre specifically but I do find the quality of the posts and responses to be less than desirable. And if I'm gonna be paying 250+tax+S&H, I guess I'd be a fool without questions.

1. I'm most likely going to go with the uniform weight 55g rather than multi-weighted. But some have said "the stiffness of it is similar to the linear mx black".

That concerns me a bit, well for one stiffness is incorrect it's more like resistive and two, like I said "I'd want to try something new". I notice some people have said the 45g is more enjoyable. But well since it's not here in the U.S. is the 55g like the cherry black. Or am I guessing those posts were overstated but non the less.

I even ran into some posts saying the 55g vs lower weighted was night and day difference. That the extra 10g was not a subtle but a significant change.

Can some one go more in depth on the 55g especially if your mx black user?(I understand they are two totally different modes of operations one is linear and the other is tactile)

2. Is the NKRO factor any problem? with the USB spec 6+4, I saw that post on the sticky(N-Key test) which mentioned no problems both to individual limit and to combos(both together and cross row), is that the norm mode of operation, every time on time for the Topre?(I like the comfort of knowing the keyboard is as fully capable as possible)

Also am I correct in that the Topres are not PS/2 compatible with adapters nor the system inside the board?(Shame if they aren't but I'm guessing it's not so bad to go back to USB with a quality board)

3. Does it stack up gaming wise. I'll admit I know it's kinda silly to ask that nearly 300 dollars to game but despite that chuckle. I don't just type all the time.(I know the Japanese like the Topre quite a bit hell I think someone posted a picture here of some JP pro or LAN team playing I think Warsow. As as a few other mentioned bits here and there of other games, though mostly of the 30-35 to 45g type and in Korea the 55g).

I know the multi-weighted gets a nod of disapproval when it comes to gaming but fixed-weighted gets a better response.

Repetitive keystrokes one thing I do like about the mx black is you can spam the actuation point by hardly lifting it. I know it's a tactile switch but any interference or anything of that nature? not that I really repeat MUCH but considering the blues had a noticeable reset point. Any problems there?

And any problems with repetitive actions like same press? not spam on the actuation point but just sometimes the blacks become tiring for multiple presses rapidly on the same key or set of keys especially on the weaker fingers not so much the larger keys on the backspace/ctrl/shift/etc.etc. but on letter/number keys.

(Again the force graphs of the Topre just seem so shallow. Any more in depth force graphs like the cherry/model M types? I especially found the extensive Model M buckling spring chart to be excellent.)

4. I hate to post this but despite it's praise is it really worth it? I'll be honest I actually considered buying one when I was going to buy the linear force. Hell except for some hesitation, I honestly had no resistance to buy one. I know it's a quality product and from what I've read. I have to ask considering the price.

I hate asking but really there is so little specific in-depth information on the Topres it's hard to decide. I know I shouldn't completely depend on another set of opinions but as I mentioned pretty expensive and a blind shot basically.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: lmnop on Sun, 30 May 2010, 06:25:37: Topre for gaming are you serious?
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 30 May 2010, 06:50:29: Topre is good for gaming.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: lmnop on Sun, 30 May 2010, 06:59:10: the Topre is a typing keyboard nothing is going to change that. people don't spend $300 on one to game. the only comment I have read regarding gaming was "it's better than my Lycosa.." from this forum. i'm not trying to step on anybody's toes I just thought it needed to be said. i'm sure ripster will be kind enough to answer your questions.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 30 May 2010, 09:12:45: Quote from: lmnop;188173
the Topre is a typing keyboard nothing is going to change that. people don't spend $300 on one to game. the only comment I have read regarding gaming was "it's better than my Lycosa.." from this forum. i'm not trying to step on anybody's toes I just thought it needed to be said. i'm sure ripster will be kind enough to answer your questions.

What's important is that it can be used for gaming too in addition to other tasks. Unlike most Linear tasks.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: lmnop on Sun, 30 May 2010, 09:31:21: mandingo lol
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: kriminal on Sun, 30 May 2010, 10:44:18: Quote from: lmnop;188169
Topre for gaming are you serious?

i dont see a problem with this...
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: lmnop on Sun, 30 May 2010, 10:46:16: what a shocker...

(http://i50.tinypic.com/29pyt0y.jpg)

Kitty is not amused.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: kriminal on Sun, 30 May 2010, 13:43:50: hey ripster... :) interested in selling your modded n52? :)
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: kriminal on Sun, 30 May 2010, 13:48:54: some day you will :) and i call dibs ;)
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: didjamatic on Sun, 30 May 2010, 13:57:22: Is Toner code for something, or is that a shopping list?

Quote from: ripster;188234
Picky people should use a gaming keyboard for gaming and a typing keyboard for typing.

Then just tune the gaming keyboard to the switches they want.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10445&stc=1&d=1275236248)

This graph is Awesome! I don't care what it means, or if there is any logic of any kind involved, having those 4 photos in one graph makes it awesome.

Quote from: ripster;188224
I just posted this in the Facial Hair poll. I think it sums up the target market quite nicely.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10443&stc=1&d=1275233320)
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: Arc'xer on Sun, 30 May 2010, 14:05:29: I knew the gaming question was going to be nitpicked. But like I said I'm aware of the price and I'm aware of the few people on here who actually use them for said purposes was just wanting some more in depth review.

But what about #1/#4 anyways. How does the uniform-weight 55g stack up versus the linear. Kinda worries me about that comment; forgot who mentioned it.

But said the stiffness was similar I know 55g is close to the 60g, but is it that bad?
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: maxlugar on Mon, 31 May 2010, 01:22:04: Quote from: ripster;188196
All the Topres - the Happy Hacking Keyboard and the Realforce 87U - ARE limited to 6 key rollover.

You can't just put the purple dongle (bottom right) on it. Doesn't work. I've tried.

On my Topre Realforce 87U, I can press 10 keys in sequence i.e. starting with 1 and holding it down until 2 is pressed, until I run out of fingers - and that's with the keyboard connected to the Dell port replicator via USB (using an iogear USB hub model GUH286)

1234567980

Does that not make the 87U at least 10 key rollover?
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 31 May 2010, 04:08:13: EDIT: Check out http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx (http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx) if you do your test, you will see that only six keys will be registered at any one given time. Your test does demonstrate that the Realforce doesn't have any blocking on the number row (they don't block anywhere afaik)
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: Arc'xer on Mon, 31 May 2010, 15:05:18: I was thinking of the Otaku brown as well now that you mention it.

Like I said it's not that I hate the mx black. But it's a switch that changes depending on your mood. Sometimes it's awesome, other times it feels like I said before a surprise.

Yeah those force graphs are so simplistic, I mean yeah the cherry mx ones are similar but very definitive visually. The only topre force graph that I found surprising was actually the one that had the Fujitsu super-light linear action switch that had like 5g-25g-95g, where it starts off so low than around 3.0 mark it spikes nearly 5 times the amount. But other than that they don't tell much.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: nowsharing on Mon, 31 May 2010, 18:38:52: Quote
Topre should really publish a decent force chart. I'll put one together when I get a chance.

What have you done to your espresso machine Ripster?
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: audioave10 on Tue, 01 June 2010, 00:06:30: When I was a machinist, I had the best Brown & Sharpe and Starrett instruments you could buy. I miss them.
Title: Some Q's on future purchase....
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 01 June 2010, 08:34:46: Awesome ripster, I had planned to do something similar but it looks like you have it done... and this answers the question I had about why would you solder a switch into a keyboard to test it... because you have this fantastic force gauge armature doohickey of THE FUTURE that lets you map out force graphs. This totally beats the method I was going to try with a micrometer and very simple force gauge.