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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: colbabe on Tue, 08 June 2010, 20:14:29

Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Tue, 08 June 2010, 20:14:29: Would there be other sellers besides Elitekeyboard - want an 87U tenkeyless, not blank.

Oh well . . .
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: Arc'xer on Tue, 08 June 2010, 20:20:26: It's not blank, it has an India ink lettering. But it blends in with the color of the key caps. So people have said even in direct lighting it's still hard to see.

At the price range of the Topres, it's pretty much a touch typist keyboard.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Tue, 08 June 2010, 20:26:39: I'd still purchase even though difficult to see, I'd just like to find one available to buy-thats the issue. I'm a touch typist and I like the idea of the variable weight keys. Any suggestions appreciated. Elitekeyboards have been out of stock for some time now.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: 002 on Tue, 08 June 2010, 23:03:53: Alternatively, if you can't wait and you're made of money you could buy one (http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1237268118) from leopold using http://www.buyfromkorea.kr/
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 08 June 2010, 23:47:14: Yes, and they them in White (http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1237266360).
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: 002 on Tue, 08 June 2010, 23:53:46: Correct, but they only have the Uniform 55g in White.
I believe they have the variable force in white but it has Korean characters on the keys.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Wed, 09 June 2010, 18:47:28: Quote from: ripster;191102
Have you emailed him? He seems to restock every 6-8 weeks.

I'm in the same boat. Exactly. And I've been emailing them since December, or maybe before. I bought a 103U in white from them and I love it--as I've posted about here--but I really like the idea of ditching the freaking number pad. I hardly ever use it. I know it's useful, but I'd rather have it as a separate thing--if I needed it. Which I almost never do. So, point is that I've been wanting an 86U, and then an 87U, in white for a while now. In December, they told me to check back in Feb. In Feb. they told me that there wasn't much demand for white, but that maybe they'd get them in at some point. Emailed yesterday and got a reply back that they aren't going to have any more 87U's this year because there was some "political wrangling" about who had the rights to distribute Realforce boards here in the US.

I found an 86U at beNipon for a reasonable price, in white, and it doesn't say it's all 55 grams--which I don't want--all 45g, yes, all 55g, no--so I could go for that, but I like the changes in the 87U. Not the extra windows key. Couldn't care less about that. But the swappable caps lock and control keys (two sets) and the LED in the caps lock/control (upper). Plus, I'm not desperate for an 87U in white. I'm doing just fine with my 103U. But I certainly WOULD buy one if it were available in new condition.

I think I'll post a WTB at some point . . .

Been thinking hard on a HHKB Pro 2--have been for months--but I keep coming back to the same conclusion: great board, I'm sure, and worth ever penny, but the layout isn't for me. I would miss the function keys, which I end up using quite a lot, and the arrow keys, and the delete key (because I would set the dip to change delete to BS, so delete would need a FN+<`> double stroke.

Anyway, overly long post. Sorry.

Point is--I haven't seen any mention of fighting over distributor rights to Realforce. But, I have very little time to spend online these days. Maybe I just missed it.

Or maybe Elitekeyboards is just tired of getting emails from me . . .
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Wed, 09 June 2010, 18:52:34: Quote from: 002;191175
Correct, but they only have the Uniform 55g in White.
I believe they have the variable force in white but it has Korean characters on the keys.

Here's the link to the beNippon 86U, which I assume is variable weight:

86U (http://benippon.com/en/topre-realforce-86u-se0500-english-usb-tenkeyless-keyboard)
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: 002 on Wed, 09 June 2010, 19:34:14: Quote from: _js_;191435
Here's the link to the beNippon 86U, which I assume is variable weight:

86U (http://benippon.com/en/topre-realforce-86u-se0500-english-usb-tenkeyless-keyboard)

The SE0500 is variable weight according to the geekhack wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre#Ten+Keyless+Keybaords), so yes.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Wed, 09 June 2010, 20:54:03: Thanks for the information - I was wondering why always "sold out" or "not in stock" - Real bummer ...
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Wed, 09 June 2010, 20:57:04: Quote from: 002;191453
The SE0500 is variable weight according to the geekhack wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre#Ten+Keyless+Keybaords), so yes.

I'll check this out, tks bunches!
Title: So What's Next Best?
Post by: colbabe on Wed, 09 June 2010, 21:18:14: Truly, I've done the research and had my heart set on an 86u, but I can afford one from Japan (doubtful) and cannot put off acquiring a better keyboard, so I ask, is there a board that would come close to the 86U?
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Thu, 10 June 2010, 07:50:26: colbabe,

That 86U I linked to is only about $243 US. That's cheaper than the variable weight 87U's that Elitekeyboards sold. There will be a hefty shipping charge, probably, and some paypal fees and maybe some other fees, but it is still in the ballpark of the EK price.

Why would you be able to afford the one but not the other?

Just curious.

As to your other question, I remember seeing a thread in this forum about something that was ALMOST as good as Topre. Do a search on those two words in thread title and check it out. (I never looked at the thread, so I don't know if it's relevant).
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: washuai on Thu, 10 June 2010, 08:48:31: Quote from: _js_;191599

As to your other question, I remember seeing a thread in this forum about something that was ALMOST as good as Topre. Do a search on those two words in thread title and check it out. (I never looked at the thread, so I don't know if it's relevant).

If that is the thread I'm thinking about, it is Key Tronic designer P2 ergonomic versus Topre and somewhat misleading or potentially confusing. To someone like my sister who can't stand clicky (thinks cherry browns & scissor switches are too loud) and just can't afford Topre, I'm gonna say get a Key Tronic or a MSFT Side Winder, I give up. To someone who can afford the difference and has a better idea of what Topre can offer, I wouldn't recommend it.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: firegun9 on Thu, 10 June 2010, 10:19:11: Elitekeyboards took off the variable 87U from their website.

I was considering buying a black HHKB pro 2 when it was oos.
Now Torpre 87U is oos, after I switched my mind to get this one instead.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 10 June 2010, 10:24:08: The 86U will be available soon. I, personally, like having the LEDs on the 'board, but otherwise, the 86U and the 87U are pretty much the same (besides only having one Windows key on the 86U).
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 10 June 2010, 11:34:03: Quote from: ripster;191648
87U is the one to get. 30g for the pinkies on the 86U is probably too light unless you have girlyman fingers. Especially on that home row. Plus, 87>86.

Using that logic, 103 > 87. You might disagree, though.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Thu, 10 June 2010, 16:34:53: Quote from: ripster;191648
87U is the one to get. 30g for the pinkies on the 86U is probably too light unless you have girlyman fingers. Especially on that home row. Plus, 87>86.

The 87U has a different weight for the pinkies? But still variable? You mean like 35g, 45g, 55g instead of 30g, 45g, 55g? Or are you talking about the all 55g 87U?

Because I have almost convinced myself to just get a white variable 86U and not bother waiting for the 87U in white. But if the 87U has higher weighting on the pinkie keys, then that tips the scales. I already think the weighting on the pinkie keys on my 103U is too light. I rarely notice it, to be sure, but every now and then I do, and I think "I wish I could get an all 45g Topre board--but not the HHKB Pro 2".

I thought all the variable Realforce boards had the same weighting distribution. Is this incorrect?
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: test157 on Thu, 10 June 2010, 16:51:39: why not filco brown? they are better and cheaper, I have HHKB and Filco Brown - the one reason to buy topre - it's layout at HHKB, Cherry Browns are much better - the first switches I like more than scissors :D
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: washuai on Thu, 10 June 2010, 19:14:27: Quote from: test157;191774
why not filco brown? they are better and cheaper, I have HHKB and Filco Brown - the one reason to buy topre - it's layout at HHKB, Cherry Browns are much better - the first switches I like more than scissors :D

Better in which way? Cheaper is definitely part of why I own a Filco and an on the way Cherry board. I do need to look into requesting a smaller form factor keyboard for work, but I am worried they'll try to force me to a cheap rubber dome and I don't like small form factor roll ups and I doubt they'll get me an 86U, 87U or HHKB2.

Well, the OP said "no Topre", but really meant "no stealth keys", so I don't think browns are on this menu.
Switch wise, one may prefer the feel of browns to Topre (I must get a Topre first, before I can weigh in here, personally), so better will depend on the individual.

Based on research, Topre excels browns at being quiet, key durability, build quality and surviving spills. Until the mini-guru or the "Who" get out into production, Topre has the monopoly on HHKB layout.

Browns are better than ok, They're Great . . Ok is like acceptable rubber domes.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: firegun9 on Thu, 10 June 2010, 19:52:37: Quote from: test157;191774
why not filco brown? they are better and cheaper, I have HHKB and Filco Brown - the one reason to buy topre - it's layout at HHKB, Cherry Browns are much better - the first switches I like more than scissors :D

Personally I don't like the brown, mainly because it's tactility. It's light but not light enough so I have to pay attention to the force on my fingers to make sure the keys are activated. Typing on that thing is not smooth.

My main has black switches with brown springs. According to the force graphs, it should be very similar to red switches.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Thu, 10 June 2010, 21:02:13: Quote from: _js_;191599
colbabe,

That 86U I linked to is only about $243 US. That's cheaper than the variable weight 87U's that Elitekeyboards sold. There will be a hefty shipping charge, probably, and some paypal fees and maybe some other fees, but it is still in the ballpark of the EK price.

Why would you be able to afford the one but not the other

Just curious.

As to your other question, I remember seeing a thread in this forum about something that was ALMOST as good as Topre. Do a search on those two words in thread title and check it out. (I never looked at the thread, so I don't know if it's relevant).

I must've overlooked your link - and looked at an altogether different site - if you'd redirect me to your link I'll look. Thanks for the thread search tip - better a quality keyboard than none at all.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Thu, 10 June 2010, 21:08:44: Quote from: ripster;191614
Unicomp rubber dome FTW! Kishy has one for $10 in the classifieds under "SmarTrex".

Seriously? In your opinion a decent keyboard - can't go wrong for $10.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: test157 on Thu, 10 June 2010, 22:47:09: comon guys, forget that you bought your topre for >$200.

what are good there?

just some smooth rubber domes, but nothing more or special. I'am just joyning my new filco brown, I'am little dissapointed about layout, but will try to go back to iso layout (or how it's called), maybe will reuturn to HHKB week later, but for sure not because it has these topre switches, but because of it's layout.

about build quality, I dunno what you don't like in filco - but for me it's great build quality, I don't need more for keyboard ) maybe later some letters will dissaperar dunno, but right now I don't see big difference in quality builld - it's just difference materials, but both keyaboard are supper B in case of quality.

p.s.: hkkb is the best, not only for size, but mainly for it's layout. when you don't have to crank your hands - it's great, you just keep them in one position + your mouse is so neeeeeeer )
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: test157 on Thu, 10 June 2010, 22:48:57: oh once more about filco, that it has finger prints )) I don't see them at HHKB - maybe this means quality dunno. so for topic starter, just keep it easy and go with filco brown you'll save hundred bucks and will be more than happy with it.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: kishy on Thu, 10 June 2010, 23:01:27: Supposedly the differences - though minor in nature, but significant in impact - that the Topre mechanism has compared to typical rubber domes do make the overall feel worth the investment to buyers.

I do suspect, and I think many will agree, that a certain amount of 'elitism' comes into play (blah blah blah my keyboard costs more than yours so I'm better than you) with regards to why some people prefer Topre...I couldn't specify any examples, but I'm sure we have people here who don't ultimately care but pretend they do so they can justify large expenses to become 'better' than others.

"Join the elite Topre club blah blah blah"

Honestly, I'd like to try a Topre, but that kind of price tag is a big no-no just to try one.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Fri, 11 June 2010, 09:48:11: Quote from: ripster;191772
See the "Topre Wiki" for the weighting chart. I found that 35g was too low for me for the a and ; keys on the homerow so I can't imagine 30g working on that home row. Some people obviously adjusted fine. Me, I just hacked up the poor thing.

Details on the mod in my sig link.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10920&stc=1&d=1276206164)

I looked at the wiki, but I saw no info on the DIFFERENCES between 86U and 87U.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE 86U HAS A LOWER FORCE ON THE PINKIE KEYS? Or that the 87U does? Or what?

I have a 103U. Is the weighting of the 86U the same as that, or different?

*****

As for those people telling us that we're stupid for prefering Topre to Filco Brown, would you please let it go? It's fine to say that YOU prefer FB to Topre, but it seems to me to be rude to tell the rest of us what we SHOULD prefer.

For me, there's no contest. I'm totally pro-Topre
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 11 June 2010, 10:14:29: My 87u variable was 35g on pinkies. My particular 103u was 30g on pinkies (like the original Realforce 101 was), though it was supposed to be 35g on those switches.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: noctua on Fri, 11 June 2010, 10:45:26: _js_: you could simply ask in the Vendor Forum (http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=51), and insert the missing facts self into wiki entry!
Apropos the title of this thread is "Ready to Purchase, But no Topre".
..For me, there's no contest. I'm totally pro-Porsche..
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: colbabe on Fri, 11 June 2010, 19:59:02: _js_ I totally agree ...pro-Topre!

ripster Over 20+ years ago my work tried out Datahands - super cool, the gal chosen worked previously as a court recorder and she got quite efficient. I wish I could've tried but the company only designated one.

Finally got a reply from elitekeboards:
This board has been discontinued. We will have a somewhat comparable board available next month, but it will not have the built in tenkey functionality and will initially only be available in white.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: noctua on Sat, 12 June 2010, 01:25:04: Yeah, feel free and buy what you want, for me i'm totally pro blue-Cherry.
Simply i can feel and hear the results of my typing, the click you know.
I have long enough written on rubber-dome based keyboards, Topre
is rubber-dome based right.. ;-)
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: maetl on Sat, 12 June 2010, 01:52:26: Quote from: test157;191888
just some smooth rubber domes, but nothing more or special.

And that is exactly what I expected when I bought one. The problem with rubber domes, at least in my opinion, is not inherent, it is that they have been made cheaply and massively. It is a problem of perception. They really are nice to type on when the force curve is smooth, the construction is solid, and you don't need to bottom out to hit that membrane.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: Arc'xer on Sat, 12 June 2010, 12:22:40: Quote from: noctua;192367
Yeah, feel free and buy what you want, for me i'm totally pro blue-Cherry.
Simply i can feel and hear the results of my typing, the click you know.
I have long enough written on rubber-dome based keyboards, Topre
is rubber-dome based right.. ;-)

Except that the Topre is a Hybrid Mechanical/Capacitive/Rubber dome. Well not fully mechanical it lacks a dedicated internal mechanism but it's a mechanical switch housing, with a rubber dome, and like mentioned above a conical spring. The rubber dome is also a custom molded and of higher quality than your other dome types.

All things topre wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre)

It's not your typical, membrane or rubber domes out there. It's much, much different system.

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/const/switchCap-c.html (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/const/switchCap-c.html)
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: noctua on Sat, 12 June 2010, 13:31:38: Quote from: Arc'xer;192450
Except that the Topre is a Hybrid Mechanical/Capacitive/Rubber dome. Well not fully mechanical it lacks a dedicated internal mechanism but it's a mechanical switch housing, with a rubber dome, and like mentioned above a conical spring. The rubber dome is also a custom molded and of higher quality than your other dome types.

All things topre wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre)

It's not your typical, membrane or rubber domes out there. It's much, much different system.

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/const/switchCap-c.html (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/const/switchCap-c.html)

My statment is still true, rubber dome based. Although Topre has enhanced this concept at
an higher quality level (more complicated). Be that as it may. But you may notice, the
finger self, can't feel if the electrical contact is closed by capactive or mechanical
influences. Similarly you hear nothing what currently occurs under your fingers.
That is now the difference in this spirit, the higher quality?
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 12 June 2010, 13:56:43: In a sense you're wrong. The spring does have an effect on the smoothness of the Topre switch - if you ever disassemble a Topre board, and try pressing on one of the domes with the spring removed, it feels far more like a regular rubber dome keyboard. And because of the way rubber dome keyboards work, it would be rather difficult to have a rubber dome with a spring that used a membrane for actuation.

There are additional advantages not related to key feel but noteworthy nonetheless - good luck finding a membrane keyboard that can do NKRO.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: noctua on Sat, 12 June 2010, 14:06:56: Anyway the switch dosn't tell you if the contact is currently closed or not, until you use your eyes.. smooth or not smooth!
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: noctua on Sat, 12 June 2010, 15:58:11: huge spike at the end != all way down? I dosn't use a dial caliper then i press my fingers ;-)
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Sat, 12 June 2010, 21:57:29: noctua,

You can make all the baiting and inflammatory comments that you want, but the proof is in the typing, in the using. For me, my Topre based Realforce 103U beats every other keyboard I've tried--hands down. The force-curve is near perfection for me. I love it. And it shows in both my typing speed and accuracy.

It's true that there isn't an audible "click"--but for me, that's a plus. After using an AEK II and then a Model M for a couple years (total) I am well and truly sick of LOUD keyboards. For me, it just got old. At first, it was loads of fun to have the "click" there. And if that feeling had stayed with me, then yes, the lack of it in a Topre action would be a minus.

It's just personal preference.

One thing, however, is NOT merely opinion or taste--and that is that the Realforce boards are some of the highest quality keyboards made, both in general construction, and in the action. You think you're saying something negative by emphasizing the rubber dome? Not by a long shot. There's rubber, and there's rubber. Some is high quality, some is very cheap. The rubber dome in the Topre action is very high quality stuff, and on top of that, there's a spring as well. And the fact that there's no physical contact, like with a cheap, standard keyboard, means that the keyswitches are rated for incredibly long cycle life.

But, that's not a reason to get a Topre if you don't like the action. If you prefer the Cherry Blue, it is also a high quality switch that will last practically forever.

However, it is a reason to dismiss your nonsensical implication that the Topre boards are cheap by calling them "rubber dome" keyboards.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: _js_ on Sat, 12 June 2010, 21:59:42: Quote from: noctua;192068
_js_: you could simply ask in the Vendor Forum (http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=51), and insert the missing facts self into wiki entry!
Apropos the title of this thread is "Ready to Purchase, But no Topre".
..For me, there's no contest. I'm totally pro-Porsche..

There's no way I would edit the Topre wiki. I have cheek, but not that much cheek. I'll leave it to people who really know their stuff to change the wiki.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: noctua on Sun, 13 June 2010, 02:40:32: Quote from: _js_;192579
...

Your unilateral propagation of Topre products is inflammatory, like a sales clerk!
Why you ask each, how long his penis is? blah blah blah..

colbabe should manipulate itself by testing different concepts, not by/from you!

It lies in nature of rubber dome >> BASED << keyboards, they don't
give you a perceptible FEEDBACK at wich moment of pressure the
electrical contact is given or not. That's the absolute truth.

Humans need a feedback right?

PS: Stop here we fight only about our own personally preferences!

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">
[/youtube]
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: JBert on Sun, 13 June 2010, 15:44:33: Quote from: ch_123;192488
There are additional advantages not related to key feel but noteworthy nonetheless - good luck finding a membrane keyboard that can do NKRO.
There we go again. The Microsoft SideWinder X4 gave it a shot and came close.
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 14 June 2010, 16:46:15: Quote from: noctua;192675
It lies in nature of rubber dome >> BASED << keyboards, they don't
give you a perceptible FEEDBACK at wich moment of pressure the
electrical contact is given or not. That's the absolute truth.

Have you ever used a Topre keyboard?
Title: Ready to Purchase, But No Topre
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 08:13:45: I know exactly when the Topre switch activates. It's about half way down, right after the tactile bump. The switch tells me so. Standard rubber domes give similar feedback. When I slam down to the bottom of the keystroke, the switch activates. It's pretty elementary.