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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dz_alias on Thu, 10 June 2010, 02:51:25

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Thu, 10 June 2010, 02:51:25

I recently acquired an IBM M13 clicky keyboard. Yeah, it's clicky, but it's not "just right." It's not a satisfying click.

What mods are there, if any, that address the following problems?

1. Keys are too light. Takes too little pressure to actuate. Not enough resistance.
Are there stiffer, thicker gauged springs available anywhere? I can't seem to find any information on this or sources.

2. The current springs like to reverberate. If I wanted spring reverberation, I'd turn on my amp and rock it back and forth. This particular nuance is driving me crazy.
I'm thinking maybe a wee bit of foam inside the coil, below where the spring collapses, would effectively dampen spring reverberation.

3. "Snapping" of the keys isn't tight enough. I dunno if this is entirely related to the first two or is a phenomena on its own.


Any and all help is appreciated! Thanks!

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: clickclack on Thu, 10 June 2010, 03:05:48

You might be  interested in doing a Sandy55/ripster "nut and bolt mod" as well as putting some string down inside the spring. Try a quick search for them and see if that seems like something you would be interested in.

=)

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Thu, 10 June 2010, 03:10:54

Quote from: clickclack;191568

You might be  interested in doing a Sandy55/ripster "nut and bolt mod" as well as putting some string down inside the spring. Try a quick search for them and see if that seems like something you would be interested in.

=)

I've seen the "nut and bolt mod" but wasn't sure of its purpose. So long as I have an excuse to use my Dremel!

String in the spring could work :D. That's pretty resourceful, I wouldn't have thought of that. My girlfriend has a bunch of yarn, I could try it.

EDIT: Tried it, removed the "click" of the spring entirely. I used a few small threads the length of the spring. Less maybe?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: clickclack on Thu, 10 June 2010, 04:30:14

Yeah I would probably try thinner and/or less dense string. You gotta fiddle with that mod to tailor it to what you have in mind.

The nut and bold mod makes the keys sound a little bit more consistent with perhaps a slightly more exact tactile click. It also reduces the spring echo, vibration, and lowers the sound a little bit over all. It essentially makes it a tighter and cleaner feeling switch, perhaps slightly more modern in actuation.
I wouldn't say better but I would say different (I love it with or without the mod).

Enjoy your BS adventure! =)
get it, get it.... hmmm?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: kishy on Thu, 10 June 2010, 14:57:42

So that's yet another person who agrees with me that the M13 feels different from a "normal M".

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: sethstorm on Thu, 10 June 2010, 15:26:13

Quote from: webwit;191731

This is because they secretly changed the buckling spring switch technology.

Not that much different from a wheelwriter though.

To the original poster:
Yes, I do have a few spare springs, but not a full set.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: JBert on Thu, 10 June 2010, 16:35:53

@the OP: what is your previous experience with buckling springs or clicky keyboards?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Thu, 10 June 2010, 23:04:17

Quote from: kishy;191728

So that's yet another person who agrees with me that the M13 feels different from a "normal M".

I've actually never felt a "normal M", however you're not the only person that I've heard say it feels different. I think it's a general consensus.

Quote from: JBert;191771

@the OP: what is your previous experience with buckling springs or clicky keyboards?

None. I had a board with brown Cherry MX switches, but it wasn't clicky. Which is why I quickly got rid of it.

Quote from: webwit

Call Unicomp for replacement springs. $25 for a complete set of new "pivot plates".

How do they compare with the stock Lexmark springs? The springs aren't worn out; I just inherently don't like them.

EDIT: Are there any mechanical keyboards that are notorious for having stiffer springs?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 10 June 2010, 23:49:27

Quote from: dz_alias;191893

I've actually never felt a "normal M", however you're not the only person that I've heard say it feels different. I think it's a general consensus.


None. I had a board with brown Cherry MX switches, but it wasn't clicky. Which is why I quickly got rid of it.


How do they compare with the stock Lexmark springs? The springs aren't worn out; I just inherently don't like them.

EDIT: Are there any mechanical keyboards that are notorious for having stiffer springs?

I find the Model M springs pretty stiff... as far as I know, IBM was the only company to use the buckling springs.
You could always give the Model F a whirl, I find them to be less resistant, so, it makes it easier to type faster... for me anyways.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Thu, 10 June 2010, 23:54:07

Quote from: EverythingIBM;191905

I find the Model M springs pretty stiff... as far as I know, IBM was the only company to use the buckling springs.
You could always give the Model F a whirl, I find them to be less resistant, so, it makes it easier to type faster... for me anyways.

I'm actually looking for stiffer springs, so maybe I should get a toast Model M and rip it apart?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Fri, 11 June 2010, 01:09:15

Quote from: ripster;191925

Nut/bolt mod and then just tighten the hell out of that sucker.  We are talking microtolerances here so it doesn't take much.

You could anneal each spring with a blowtorch and tossing in water.  On second thought I tried that.  Don't do it.

Will try. But first, my trackpoint swap!

I would advance, but I don't have a schem for the Trackpoint II, and I can't test the wires with my multimeter... I'm sure the signal is way too small.

I could do trial and error, but that's tedious.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: kishy on Fri, 11 June 2010, 01:14:16

Quote from: dz_alias;191932

Will try. But first, my trackpoint swap!

I would advance, but I don't have a schem for the Trackpoint II, and I can't test the wires with my multimeter... I'm sure the signal is way too small.

I could do trial and error, but that's tedious.

That reminds me, I owe you M13 photos.

...which reminds me that you've already got an M13, so you don't need photos. Who'd I promise M13 photos to?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: clickclack on Fri, 11 June 2010, 04:03:26

Quote from: webwit;191743

Call Unicomp for replacement springs. $25 for a complete set of new "pivot plates".
I think that's great!
I am constantly amazed at what you guys say they will do! I think that is wonderful. I really, really need to buy something from them!

Quote from: ripster;191925

Nut/bolt mod and then just tighten the hell out of that sucker.  We are talking microtolerances here so it doesn't take much.

He seriously speaks the truth!
Definately worth trying if you feel so inclinded.
=)

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Fri, 11 June 2010, 10:29:12

Quote from: ripster;192054

Unicomp needs to have a Summer Garage Sale and invite all of Geekhack over.

Their factory would be smoldering rubble after that.

@ Webwit: Do you happen to know if they have full size labels too?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Sat, 12 June 2010, 00:08:25

Rofl my woffles... So how 'bout them springs?

I emailed Unicomp.

There has to be a source for appropriate springs somewhere. Maybe a 100 pack of Bic clicky pens?

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 12 June 2010, 08:27:32

Quote from: dz_alias;192356

Rofl my woffles... So how 'bout them springs?

I emailed Unicomp.

There has to be a source for appropriate springs somewhere. Maybe a 100 pack of Bic clicky pens?

Yes, Unicomp definitely provide them.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Wed, 16 June 2010, 02:19:24

Quote from: ch_123;192419

Yes, Unicomp definitely provide them.

They responded. They told me that they're essentially the same as what I already have, and don't know where I could find higher gauge springs.

****in' bummer!

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 06:01:46

Well, new springs are much stiffer than worn out ones.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Tue, 24 August 2010, 23:36:02

Quote from: ripster;193626

That's what we said already.  Nut/bolt mod the sucker.

Is doing now. I'm having a hard ****in' time keeping the boots in place while I screw on the plate.

I had an idea, though!

What if I sprayed the springs with a very light coat of clear coat or something? I'm sure it'd wear eventually back to where it was, but would it not be stiffer prior? I might test this on a single spring and move on if it's good.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 25 August 2010, 05:18:32

I held the bolt in place with my thumb whilst I screwed in the screw with my other hand. Hurt my thumb, but got the job done...

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Wed, 25 August 2010, 23:18:37

Quote from: ripster;216403

If you follow the detailed instructions on the bolt mod here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6615) it's a piece of cake.

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3319&stc=1&d=1248568733)

You can try spraying springs but my experience experimenting with springs is that you'll just make them mushy, not stiffer.    Like I said earlier, the way to make the springs crisper is to tighten up the bolts more, perhaps even do some further shaving of the plastic shell the spring/hammers sit in.

I did. That was my reference for this project. Although... I clipped off the posts, since they were T shaped at the top. Before I plunged my dremel into the board, I'd position it where I wanted it to, and the heat from doing so caused the tops to smush. So maybe it's not catching the plate like it would if I hadn't cut them. But oh well, I'll manage.

Quote

I held the bolt in place with my thumb whilst I screwed in the screw with my other hand. Hurt my thumb, but got the job done...

I'll try it. I've been trying to hold it vertically, with a screwdriver in my left hand and wrench in my right... but it's too easy for the bolts to move. I have about 50 cuts on my hand from this project and a callous, so I think I'll be ok.

Maybe I'll tape all the edges together and remove it after I'm done...

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Thu, 26 August 2010, 00:01:48

Quote from: ripster;216758

Hmm... are you using the drill bit recommended in the mod post?  I picked one slightly undersized so once the bolt is screwed in it doesn't rotate.  Then it's a matter of flipping the assembly, putting the pieces on, and spinning on the nuts with your fingers or a 4mm socket.  No finger gymnastics needed.  In fact a dozen nuts/bolts is all that's really needed.

Yup. 1/16th. I used 7500RPM on my dremel, vs 15000. I didn't know what "tapping" meant at the time, but I opened up the holes a tiny bit with needle nose pliers so I could get the bolts started.

I think I've got it this time. I've 40 nuts / bolts, give or take a couple.

I'm testing keys at random on the keyboard as I go. So far so good. I don't see anything warping the plastic underneath and all the springs look like they're in their proper place from up top.

If I don't get the trackpoint to work later, I'm gonna sell this damn thing :p.

Title: M13 Replacement Springs
Post by: dz_alias on Thu, 26 August 2010, 02:00:46

I'm testing the keyboard now... typing on it actually. It feels really good. It's more firm now. I'll probably do this to any Model M I get from now on. Still not as brutal as I'd like, but it's sufficient. If I get the trackpoint working, I'll use it forever.