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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Nek on Thu, 21 November 2019, 01:52:27
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I recently bought two old vTech keyboards. They seem to have SMK 2nd generation MX mount switches but I am not entirely sure. The keebs are great and IMO the switches are much better than Blue MX, I can type so much effortlessly on them without making any mistakes*. However, most of the switches feel scratchy and many are more or less binding, which is horrible when it happens :(. Check out the two following videos I made. One where I demonstrate the issues and one of the better key ones.
Good key
Scratchy key (Return)
Detailed Pictures of the "good" switch (C key)
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
Detailed Pictures of a "scratchy" and binding switch (9 key)
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
From the above pictures, I can see now that the "good" switch, has some kind of lube applied to it, you can see that in the bottom of stem, whereas the "bad" switch seems to have no lube. That's weird. Did it came pre-lubed from the factory, or did someone lubed that particular key and didn't lube the others? Does this mean that I should lube all of them maybe?
So I have two questions:
- Are they actually SMK 2nd Gen tactile switches? I really doubt the tactile part, I think they are definitely clicky as they have a loud click sound and a heavy and very sharp click tactile feeling when actuated
- Is there a way to fix the scratchiness and the awful binding and make them smoother, or is this how SMK switches are supposed to feel like? And if yes, then how?
In contrast, all cherry MX and Matias switches that I have tried side-by-side with them using a switch tester (blue, green, white, gray, brown, clear, red, black,tactile gray) and also all switches with another tester (tactile, quiet click and linear) are buttery smooth compared to them. The difference in scratchiness is very evident, so much so that it made me wonder if the SMKs are "broken". I Need some light on this. Check out the second video and try to listen carefully, the scratchiness can be even heard.
* this is such a serious discussion topic that I will delve into on another thread.
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Could be due to element entering the switches over the year, it's an old keyboard after all. Not much has been said about how SMK 2nd Gen fair against dirt (most consensus is they are better than Alps when it comes to withstanding dust and element) but chances are dirt will impact the feel negatively as with any switch. As for restoration people usually go against opening up SMK 2nd gen due to how finicky and weak their contact is, plus nobody really know how much will lube do to the switches.
However, if you're willing to spend some money you can get New SMK 2nd Gen switches from Taobao for a fairly reasonable price, so if you like the switch enough/board is in good enough condition to warrant retrofitting new switches into & you have the soldering know how, replacing the switches will be a good option.
Also I'm not entire sure if SMK 2nd gen is factory lubed, but its unlikely.
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The switches definitely shouldn't feel scratchy. As for binding, I just tested the my VTech and if I pressed at the edge on the top left corner of the Enter key, I could make it bind slightly. The binding wasn't as bad as it seems to be on the video. All other keys go down smoothly even if pressed at the very edge of the keycap.
The amount of binding and scratchiness is not your standard clicky SMK experience. Describing SMK clickies should rather elicit words like "delightful", "crisp" and "effortless", and it seems that some of these switches you are describing are not in the best condition, sadly. However, as has been said, you can buy replacements switches if you feel like you would enjoy the board(s) with the switches in good condition.
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Yeah don't even think about disassembling those switches it seems to be a pain in the ass to put them back together and working at that.
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The switches definitely shouldn't feel scratchy. As for binding, I just tested the my VTech and if I pressed at the edge on the top left corner of the Enter key, I could make it bind slightly. The binding wasn't as bad as it seems to be on the video. All other keys go down smoothly even if pressed at the very edge of the keycap.
Thanks for the confirmation.
The amount of binding and scratchiness is not your standard clicky SMK experience. Describing SMK clickies should rather elicit words like "delightful", "crisp" and "effortless", and it seems that some of these switches you are describing are not in the best condition, sadly. However, as has been said, you can buy replacements switches if you feel like you would enjoy the board(s) with the switches in good condition.
Now that I know that I like SMKs, I will definitely consider buying, I am OK with soldering/desoldering switches. it's just a very tedious and time consuming work. But hey it's becoming like a new hobby now, so I can't complain.
However, if you're willing to spend some money you can get New SMK 2nd Gen switches from Taobao for a fairly reasonable price, so if you like the switch enough/board is in good enough condition to warrant retrofitting new switches into & you have the soldering know how, replacing the switches will be a good option.
I can't seem to be able to buy from Taobao as they will not ship to my country and it's full in chinese which makes no sense to me, and I don't time to engage in this trouble. Isn't AliExpress equivalent? I just bought from them some Cherry ΜΧ blues that I needed and everything went smoothly, I received them yesterday and they are great. Is Taobao cheaper or what?
Also I'm not entire sure if SMK 2nd gen is factory lubed, but its unlikely.
OK thanks, can anyone else confirm this?
Yeah don't even think about disassembling those switches it seems to be a pain in the ass to put them back together and working at that.
I will not :) I read everywhere that is crazy complicated to re-assemble them, so not worth the trouble. Except for the fun and experimentation of it, of course. I'll just buy some new switches instead and find the time to replace them.
BTW No one mentioned anything about my question if the switches are clicky or tactile. Can you confirm which type they are?
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I can't seem to be able to buy from Taobao as they will not ship to my country and it's full in chinese which makes no sense to me, and I don't time to engage in this trouble. Isn't AliExpress equivalent? I just bought from them some Cherry ΜΧ blues that I needed and everything went smoothly, I received them yesterday and they are great. Is Taobao cheaper or what?
You can use a proxy such as bhiner.com to buy from Taobao. Actually that used to be about the only way to buy from them as until recently they didn't even ship to the US.
BTW No one mentioned anything about my question if the switches are clicky or tactile. Can you confirm which type they are?
Uh...they should be clicky. Are you not hearing a click? The mechanism is similar to simplified Alps though the click leaf itself is much smaller.
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One of the keyboards has better feeling and lower binding with its switches, so this confirms that time/use/dust is the cause of the scratchiness and binding. I tried some ways to see if I can restore the smoothness without needing to open them. I used
- Drops of water inside the switch + spamming it and blowing it with a hair drier for a few seconds: no change
- Some drops of ethanol alcohol + spamming it and blowing it with a hair drier for a few seconds: no change
- Drops of an LCD screen cleaning liquid + spamming it and blowing it with a hair drier for a few seconds: no change
- Spray lubricant containing PTFE applied carefully with a qtip on the cylindrical side of the stem: somehow that made the binding and scratchiness even worse!
- Generic Silicone spray lubricant applied carefully with a qtip on the cylindrical side of the stem: it WORKED! Finally, the binding got reduced greatly, almost completely gone (but it still does bind if you really try to), the scratchiness got reduced a lot and the key become somewhat more smoother. :D I would give it a 6 - 6.5 out of 10 for smoothness now (10 is my MX blues filco that are unbelievably smooth), compared to how it was before that I would say felt like a 4/10 or even a 3/10.
So lubing the stem with Silicone based lube actually greatly reduces the binding and makes the key a bit smoother. I'll check after 10-20 days if it still is smooth or it has gone or had any adverse effects in the switch (I doubt that it will, as the lube is only applied in the stem and not in the internals of the switch).
BTW I'm waiting for a Krytox 104 lube to arrive in the next few days. I'll also try that too and see if it is any better or not.
You can use a proxy such as bhiner.com to buy from Taobao. Actually that used to be about the only way to buy from them as until recently they didn't even ship to the US.
And I did just that, I used superbuy.com instead though, beucase bhiner.com's search didn't work for some reason, and I ordered 100 new SMK 2nd gen mx mount switches ;) I just want to see if they are that much better when new. I'll let you know when I'll have them (in a month or two).
Thanks for the tip, I got them relatively cheap like 25 euros + shipping.
Uh...they should be clicky. Are you not hearing a click? The mechanism is similar to simplified Alps though the click leaf itself is much smaller.
Oh yeah they are definitely clicky. I was just confused by what I had read about tactiles and clicky ones on the interwebs. However the ones on my vTechs are certainly the clicky ones.