geekhack
geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: tp4tissue on Fri, 06 December 2019, 14:11:49
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Finally did up dat' Liquid metal today, used (Coollaboratory liquid ultra)
Cinebench:
CPU Natural: 100 C + Throttle
CPU + Undervolt: 86 C + No Throttle
CPU + Undervolt + Ultra: 68 C + No Throttle
Doom 2016:
GPU Natural : 83-86 C
GPU + Ultra : 75 C, Reseated 67 C
CPU Natural : 100 C + Throttle
CPU + Undervolt: 88 C + No Throttle
CPU + Undervolt + Ultra : 64 C + No Throttle
[Image] Ready to receive Liquid metal:
[attachimg=1]
Some tips for using LM on laptops.
For GPU/CPU packages with ~0.5 to 0.8mm of clearance.
Build a 1mm x 1mm thick dam using silicone pads around the CPU, it has to be VERY thin, because if it's any thicker, you'd greatly increase the surface area needed to be compressed, such that the spring force may not be enough for good contact.
If your GPU has a top sticker (as in the foto), use REGULAR thick thermal paste and gum up the opening between the chip and the sticker so liquid metal does not run underneath. This prevents shorting of capacitors.
If your Clearance is LESS than 0.5mm, Use layers of electrical tape, (Super 33+) is approximately 0.18mm thick per layer.
You want very thin 1mm strips if possible.stick them to a wax sheet, and cut it top down with a knife + metal ruler.
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ok
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Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
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Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
I think i have the same laptop as TP4. I notice the performance to be extremely terrible and i must ramp down the settings in order to play my games.
I got this laptop one year ago for a terrible price and i may have to add a eGPU to it to make it faster.
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Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
Basically, we know for a fact that anything above 70, degrades the silicon quite harshly.
These processors in thin laptop configurations, even with the best non-LM paste + Undervolt, will run ~85-90, in a cool room w/ Maximum hairdryer lvl fan speed. Without undervolt they throttle hard and steady states at 99-100C.
For example, after playing all dat' doom 2016 on it, It's not holding a minus 190mv undervolt as well as it did brand new.
It's clear that the silicon is already being degraded by the heat.
The processor design is capable of fundamentally 5ghz, but in this environment, due to thermal degradation, that's why the max all core turbo limite (4ghz) and peak turbo (4.5ghz) are so low, they're giving it a wide margin to break into.
For the GPU, because it will power throttle, it too has a wide band of stable frequency once deterioration sets in.
In my opinion, EVERY laptop should go Liquid Metal, Provided the User is experienced enough to handle / apply it safely .
The silicone strips in a reasonably precise size and placement is very important for safety.
-
Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
I think i have the same laptop as TP4. I notice the performance to be extremely terrible and i must ramp down the settings in order to play my games.
I got this laptop one year ago for a terrible price and i may have to add a eGPU to it to make it faster.
You can look up some tutorials on -Undervolting using Throttlestop.- This lowers the power draw to give you more sustained performance.
You can also try putting the fan controls to performance mode in dell power manager. it'll get louder, but should run cooler.
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Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
I think i have the same laptop as TP4. I notice the performance to be extremely terrible and i must ramp down the settings in order to play my games.
I got this laptop one year ago for a terrible price and i may have to add a eGPU to it to make it faster.
You can look up some tutorials on -Undervolting using Throttlestop.- This lowers the power draw to give you more sustained performance.
You can also try putting the fan controls to performance mode in dell power manager. it'll get louder, but should run cooler.
ok
-
Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
Basically, we know for a fact that anything above 70, degrades the silicon quite harshly.
These processors in thin laptop configurations, even with the best non-LM paste + Undervolt, will run ~85-90, in a cool room w/ Maximum hairdryer lvl fan speed. Without undervolt they throttle hard and steady states at 99-100C.
For example, after playing all dat' doom 2016 on it, It's not holding a minus 190mv undervolt as well as it did brand new.
It's clear that the silicon is already being degraded by the heat.
The processor design is capable of fundamentally 5ghz, but in this environment, due to thermal degradation, that's why the max all core turbo limite (4ghz) and peak turbo (4.5ghz) are so low, they're giving it a wide margin to break into.
For the GPU, because it will power throttle, it too has a wide band of stable frequency once deterioration sets in.
In my opinion, EVERY laptop should go Liquid Metal, Provided the User is experienced enough to handle / apply it safely .
The silicone strips in a reasonably precise size and placement is very important for safety.
This post got me thinking. I didn't know liquid metal was a thing until just now. I think I remember seeing it mentioned but I always just assumed it was some new brand of thermal paste or something. You have a good point that a lot of slim laptops now run at high temps, and the first thing I thought of was the original Macbook Air, which I know would idle at 70c, as well as all the modern Macbooks now. Whenever I connect my Macbook to my 4k display the fan starts going crazy, especially when I do simple things like watch Youtube, to the point where it gets distracting. Did a quick search and looks like others have already tried this. I don't care if my computer runs hot but I do care if it gets throttled and makes a lot of noise. This honestly seems like a decently practical upgrade for a lot of laptops.
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This post got me thinking. I didn't know liquid metal was a thing until just now. I think I remember seeing it mentioned but I always just assumed it was some new brand of thermal paste or something. You have a good point that a lot of slim laptops now run at high temps, and the first thing I thought of was the original Macbook Air, which I know would idle at 70c, as well as all the modern Macbooks now. Whenever I connect my Macbook to my 4k display the fan starts going crazy, especially when I do simple things like watch Youtube, to the point where it gets distracting. Did a quick search and looks like others have already tried this. I don't care if my computer runs hot but I do care if it gets throttled and makes a lot of noise. This honestly seems like a decently practical upgrade for a lot of laptops.
For macbooks, you need something to edit the fan curve even with liquid metal, they're tuned for suicide temps to stay quiet and preserve battery life.
They're fully expecting it to degrade and not last under heavy use. But the Price tag offsets this issue because Light-users are PAYING for the heavy user's repair/ replacement costs.
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Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
Basically, we know for a fact that anything above 70, degrades the silicon quite harshly.
These processors in thin laptop configurations, even with the best non-LM paste + Undervolt, will run ~85-90, in a cool room w/ Maximum hairdryer lvl fan speed. Without undervolt they throttle hard and steady states at 99-100C.
For example, after playing all dat' doom 2016 on it, It's not holding a minus 190mv undervolt as well as it did brand new.
It's clear that the silicon is already being degraded by the heat.
The processor design is capable of fundamentally 5ghz, but in this environment, due to thermal degradation, that's why the max all core turbo limite (4ghz) and peak turbo (4.5ghz) are so low, they're giving it a wide margin to break into.
For the GPU, because it will power throttle, it too has a wide band of stable frequency once deterioration sets in.
In my opinion, EVERY laptop should go Liquid Metal, Provided the User is experienced enough to handle / apply it safely .
The silicone strips in a reasonably precise size and placement is very important for safety.
This post got me thinking. I didn't know liquid metal was a thing until just now. I think I remember seeing it mentioned but I always just assumed it was some new brand of thermal paste or something. You have a good point that a lot of slim laptops now run at high temps, and the first thing I thought of was the original Macbook Air, which I know would idle at 70c, as well as all the modern Macbooks now. Whenever I connect my Macbook to my 4k display the fan starts going crazy, especially when I do simple things like watch Youtube, to the point where it gets distracting. Did a quick search and looks like others have already tried this. I don't care if my computer runs hot but I do care if it gets throttled and makes a lot of noise. This honestly seems like a decently practical upgrade for a lot of laptops.
Why would i want to use liquid metal when it voids the warranty of my laptop?
-
Guess it's not going back then :p
Impressive numbers, but is there any real-world benefit to voiding the warranty? In other words does the reduction from undervolt to LM make it a true laptop or are nuts still at risk of getting a bit too deep in Christmas spirit?
Basically, we know for a fact that anything above 70, degrades the silicon quite harshly.
These processors in thin laptop configurations, even with the best non-LM paste + Undervolt, will run ~85-90, in a cool room w/ Maximum hairdryer lvl fan speed. Without undervolt they throttle hard and steady states at 99-100C.
For example, after playing all dat' doom 2016 on it, It's not holding a minus 190mv undervolt as well as it did brand new.
It's clear that the silicon is already being degraded by the heat.
The processor design is capable of fundamentally 5ghz, but in this environment, due to thermal degradation, that's why the max all core turbo limite (4ghz) and peak turbo (4.5ghz) are so low, they're giving it a wide margin to break into.
For the GPU, because it will power throttle, it too has a wide band of stable frequency once deterioration sets in.
In my opinion, EVERY laptop should go Liquid Metal, Provided the User is experienced enough to handle / apply it safely .
The silicone strips in a reasonably precise size and placement is very important for safety.
This post got me thinking. I didn't know liquid metal was a thing until just now. I think I remember seeing it mentioned but I always just assumed it was some new brand of thermal paste or something. You have a good point that a lot of slim laptops now run at high temps, and the first thing I thought of was the original Macbook Air, which I know would idle at 70c, as well as all the modern Macbooks now. Whenever I connect my Macbook to my 4k display the fan starts going crazy, especially when I do simple things like watch Youtube, to the point where it gets distracting. Did a quick search and looks like others have already tried this. I don't care if my computer runs hot but I do care if it gets throttled and makes a lot of noise. This honestly seems like a decently practical upgrade for a lot of laptops.
Why would i want to use liquid metal when it voids the warranty of my laptop?
That was the whole contents of my post lol
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For example, after playing all dat' doom 2016 on it, It's not holding a minus 190mv undervolt as well as it did brand new.
It's clear that the silicon is already being degraded by the heat.
No, no it's not clear.
You don't know heat caused this, that system may have been perfectly fine for 20 years even at 100c had you not messed with it. The whole point of spec is to make sure it lasts through the warranty period. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they've certainly done more testing on this than you have as well as a wealth of background knowledge to help.
Circuits have a minimum and max voltage requirement, this can change as they age. The whole point of a range and putting it in the middle is so it can handle not just aging but also over and undervolt situations, you eliminated half of your buffer. Just because it showed no error the moment you tuned it doesn't mean that was a safe undervolt. Undervolting more or less means taking it down as low as you can while still stable, AT THAT TIME and you can't see how much it's over taxing the capacitors, creating a low voltage situation and excess wear and tear.
By the way, when undervolting my gpu (a desktop rx 580 at the time), one thing someone stressed was the sweet spot was to not go more than 60 below, errors or not (I got down 140 below but I went back to 60). Just because it showed fine in tests didn't mean it was good for long term use. As I did tests coming back up from 140 something became apparent, while it passed gpu tests, it wasn't consistent until I got closer to 60.
While this is not a desktop RX580, what you are doing is worse since laptop parts are usually a lower voltage to start with, what you did was not some minor undervolt but instead a MASSIVE one.
Personally, I think you strangled it and you have about a 30% chance of if continuing to trend downward as a result of the damage until it starts needing an overvolt just to even boot before it ultimately simply won't.
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For example, after playing all dat' doom 2016 on it, It's not holding a minus 190mv undervolt as well as it did brand new.
It's clear that the silicon is already being degraded by the heat.
No, no it's not clear.
You don't know heat caused this, that system may have been perfectly fine for 20 years even at 100c had you not messed with it. The whole point of spec is to make sure it lasts through the warranty period. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they've certainly done more testing on this than you have as well as a wealth of background knowledge to help.
Circuits have a minimum and max voltage requirement, this can change as they age. The whole point of a range and putting it in the middle is so it can handle not just aging but also over and undervolt situations, you eliminated half of your buffer. Just because it showed no error the moment you tuned it doesn't mean that was a safe undervolt. Undervolting more or less means taking it down as low as you can while still stable, AT THAT TIME and you can't see how much it's over taxing the capacitors, creating a low voltage situation and excess wear and tear.
Mmm..these are highly regulated power circuits, the undervolt even 190mv is well within the voltage range that the cpu normally operates at, it's only shaving the 190 off the top.
The request is done in software, that then goes to the board microcode, so the entire process is not some sort of forced intercept like jumping current from a separate line.
Capacitors, mmmmm... have heard of capacitors being too large causing charge / drain problems, but certainly not an issue with voltage in the millivolt range.
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the undervolt even 190mv is well within the voltage range that the cpu normally operates at, it's only shaving the 190 off the top.
Base voltage is only about 1.28v (depending on model), you took out a significant chunk. I can't help but think that if there was that much to spare Intel would have used it.
Almost everything I'm reading says 110 and even 90 is a large jump, with no one getting what you are. And once again the magic number I see thrown around is 60. I'm amazed it ran decent at all at 190.
Regardless, I doubt you hurt it, it's too new, but I'm betting it wasn't nearly as stable as you think. That's something I saw with my GPU, it was really inconsistent once you went out past 60 or so. First pass it seemed great and would make record benchmark, then next attempt completely fall flat, then the next was just okay.. Just all over, and it didn't matter how much or how little I let it cool between passes. My understanding is that it should not only pass tests, it should benchmark just as fast as normal, possibly faster (because of running cooler), and do it consistently/repeatedly. Any drop in performance at all is an indication of issues and that you've gone too far.
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I guess it's much like the other end - some chips overclock significantly further with less volts than others, even within the same batch. Intel has to assume all chips are crap and also that they will be put into motherboards which droop under load, fed by a cheap unstable power supply. If you get a lucky chip and use it with good components you'd be laughing, though does it last? Apparently not. Mobos scale back voltage with frequency when thermal throttling and I'm yet to see one that doesn't support some ULV chips so they must be happy to run lower volts long term, so it must be the CPU that degrades? Wouldn't have expected that...
Going to have to see how low I can get mine now, though it reads ridiculously low due anyway to the dodgy adaptor. Oh to have my SOC Force with probe points back working :(
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Saw the title and got excited for some action on one of these sexy beasts
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Apple_Power_Macintosh_G5_Late_2005_02.jpg/1200px-Apple_Power_Macintosh_G5_Late_2005_02.jpg)
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I guess it's much like the other end - some chips overclock significantly further with less volts than others, even within the same batch. Intel has to assume all chips are crap and also that they will be put into motherboards which droop under load, fed by a cheap unstable power supply.
This.
Not just this, but the voltage numbers you get should only be used as a reference, you have no clue how accurate they are or if your settings are being implemented properly. Same for temps, you can make them say anything.
This problem is FAR worse in a laptop where manufacturers will tweak fan curves and voltages and not indicate it, to say nothing of the games Intel plays (hint, your turbo clock speed is a joke).