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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 12:10:03

Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 12:10:03
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4700550544_aa3a7c9a26.jpg)

First half of an ergo/steampunk/raver board (with VIM specific mappings).
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 14 June 2010, 12:11:57
Very nice!  Did you make that from scratch?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: jmpespxoreax on Mon, 14 June 2010, 12:27:49
Awesome! I briefly considered a scratch build myself. I will be following this thread, and hoping for more information and pictures.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 12:53:47
Quote from: didjamatic;192990
Very nice!  Did you make that from scratch?


Yeah; I have a little CNC, so I make crazy crap like this all the time. Planning to open source the entire design. Basically it will be an ∞ key rollover board with an atmega32 (or perhaps 64) set up as an USB HID device. Should just plug and work on any modern computer.

The most expensive part of the whole thing was the bag of 100 cherry blues! They cost more than all the other parts put together.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Harry_Y on Mon, 14 June 2010, 12:56:16
Now that is a tempting project.

I did some experimenting before having an Atmel chip read a key matrix.

I could take it up a few notches and make a complete keyboard.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: unicomp on Mon, 14 June 2010, 13:26:03
Where can one purchase the individual switches?

Edit: It would be very interesting to see something like this in the form of an article in the Modifications section.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 14 June 2010, 13:27:04
As you can see, some more goes the long and stony way..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10528&d=1275553377)
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 14 June 2010, 14:09:02
Stuff like this is always cool. It is nice to know that there are still some people who don't feel the need to always play the consumer and let innovation drive them to do unorthodox things.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Harry_Y on Mon, 14 June 2010, 14:16:27
Quote from: rantenki;192988
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4700550544_aa3a7c9a26.jpg)


First half of an ergo/steampunk/raver board (with VIM specific mappings).


Is that top layer make from PC Board material?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: jmpespxoreax on Mon, 14 June 2010, 14:48:25
I am seconding the request for something in the Modifications forum. This is too cool. I hope to get inspired.

You said that you used a CNC machine: could you provide some more details?

Are you fabricating the circuit board yourself? Are you fabricating any sort of casing or enclosure yourself?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 15:55:00
Quote from: Harry_Y;193014
Is that top layer make from PC Board material?


Nope. Solid 1/16" copper. Brushed then clearcoated. Compact doesn't always mean llightweight ;)

Next layer down is acrylic (and a ***** to machine).

Bottom will be another layer of copper, with the pcb inside, and there will then be a layer of hard rubber for the base (for traction+tilt).
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Nonmouse on Mon, 14 June 2010, 16:39:02
Quote from: unicomp;193004
Where can one purchase the individual switches?


Mouser (http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/_/N-5g1x?Keyword=cherry+mx1a&FS=True)  is one place...
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Harry_Y on Mon, 14 June 2010, 17:49:23
Quote from: rantenki;193041
Nope. Solid 1/16" copper. Brushed then clearcoated. Compact doesn't always mean llightweight ;)

Next layer down is acrylic (and a ***** to machine).

Bottom will be another layer of copper, with the pcb inside, and there will then be a layer of hard rubber for the base (for traction+tilt).


What was the problem with the acrylic?

I know when I machined Plexiglas it wanted to melt
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 17:54:15
Quote from: Harry_Y;193074
What was the problem with the acrylic?

I know when I machined Plexiglas it wanted to melt


Same problem. I don't have a coolant reservoir, so I have to use a spray bottle and be VERY patient.

My CNC is a bit on the small side: CNC == SLYT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqiS1vBB-Pg)

This is actually the same material as the spacer block on the keyboard half.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 18:03:01
Quote from: unicomp;193004
Where can one purchase the individual switches?

Edit: It would be very interesting to see something like this in the form of an article in the Modifications section.


Newark (http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=500003+1000028&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=mx&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial)had the best pricing I found so far.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 14 June 2010, 18:07:07
Still almost 1$ a piece for cherry's..  You can get a scorpius m10 for like $60 and harvest the keys.  What's the code for the blue mx's? I have a feeling those are the ones almost $2.

 I bought one of those teensy++ controllers a long time ago I might try to do a scratchbuilt with.  I have a feeling I'll need a lot of help doing the programming though.    And yeah, the mounting plate is always the toughest part to figure out.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Nonmouse on Mon, 14 June 2010, 18:45:40
Quote from: chimera15;193081
Still almost 1$ a piece for cherry's..  You can get a scorpius m10 for like $60 and harvest the keys.  What's the code for the blue mx's? I have a feeling those are the ones almost $2.

MX1A-E1xy.

x= N (no diode) or D (w/ diode) (There are actually some other options here, but not in the wild)
y = N (no pins; plate mounted) or W (w/ pins; PCB mounted)

Data Sheet (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm)

Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 14 June 2010, 18:52:11
Yeah so mouser wants $.78 per switch, for 100 switches.  I can buy a scorpius m10 for $60 with like what, 104/105 keys? That's pretty messed up when the switches alone cost more than a fully produced keyboard.  Newark wants $1.30 per MX1A-E1NW for 100 order, which is crazy.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Nonmouse on Mon, 14 June 2010, 19:07:30
Quote from: ripster;193095
I don't think distributors keeps stock on Cherry Browns either - special order.

Cherry Corp USA doesn't even admit they exist...
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Harry_Y on Mon, 14 June 2010, 19:21:27
Quote from: rantenki;193075
Same problem. I don't have a coolant reservoir, so I have to use a spray bottle and be VERY patient.

My CNC is a bit on the small side: CNC == SLYT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqiS1vBB-Pg)

This is actually the same material as the spacer block on the keyboard half.


Sweet

I have the Sherline 2000 so they are pretty much the same mill.
(very similar capabilities.)

Now you have me thinking, I wish I had more money to blow right now.

What are you programming the Atmel chip with? (language?)

I have Bascom (basic) that I have used before to read a key matrix
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 20:14:18
Quote from: Harry_Y;193103
Sweet

I have the Sherline 2000 so they are pretty much the same mill.
(very similar capabilities.)

Now you have me thinking, I wish I had more money to blow right now.

What are you programming the Atmel chip with? (language?)

I have Bascom (basic) that I have used before to read a key matrix



The code is going to be a stock arduino codebase, including a secondary usb port for programming, and with the addition of the V-USB (http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html) code to create the HID device.

The arduino part will be on the keyboard PCB itself, with a few extra inputs and outputs for the enterprising hacker (most notably, I hope to have some analog inputs left over, in case somebody wants a touchpad or joystick).


NOTE TO WHOEVER THINKS CHERRY MX BLUES ARE $1/ea everywhere...
Quantity Invoiced:
100   Price:
$0.699 -> $69.99 CDN (about $65USD) via Newark. Still pricy, but do-able.

I don't know how you value your time, but I will gladly pay $10 extra for NEW switches and not having to desolder X 100 :wink:

SRSly, check out Newark, with blues in stock right now. No browns sadly :mad:
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Harry_Y on Mon, 14 June 2010, 20:17:24
Now if they had ALPS I'd be all over it

The Cherry Blues would drive me crazy (high pitch)
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 14 June 2010, 21:55:10
The idea for me of making a scratchbuilt board for me wouldn't just be a hobby, but that I could reproduce it, and sell it eventually.  It might be alright as a prototype, but I could never beat existing boards like the scorpius when raw switches are sold in America for so much.  I should be able to get 100 switches for a board for less than $30, to even have a hope of coming close to the price that the scorpius m10 is selling for.  Even at $30 if you figure in the other parts, I'd be completely lucky to get a complete board for less than $100, and then if I want to make any profit at all, it completely puts me out of the race with other cherry boards.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 22:37:43
Quote from: chimera15;193137
The idea for me of making a scratchbuilt board for me wouldn't just be a hobby, but that I could reproduce it, and sell it eventually.  It might be alright as a prototype, but I could never beat existing boards like the scorpius when raw switches are sold in America for so much.  I should be able to get 100 switches for a board for less than $30, to even have a hope of coming close to the price that the scorpius m10 is selling for.  Even at $30 if you figure in the other parts, I'd be completely lucky to get a complete board for less than $100, and then if I want to make any profit at all, it completely puts me out of the race with other cherry boards.

That is probably why Cherry is made of legendary suck on the OEM parts side. They don't want to compete with themselves.

When do those IBM buckling spring patents expire?

/me cackles maniacally...

As an aside; I would _lurv_ to make keyboards for production, but making prototypes for fun is cool too, even if you cannot get to production. At least you have an unobtainium keyboard at the end.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Nonmouse on Mon, 14 June 2010, 22:46:43
Quote from: rantenki;193152
That is probably why Cherry is made of legendary suck on the OEM parts side. They don't want to compete with themselves.

I suspect that if one does like iOne or Filco and buys tens or hundreds of thousands directly form Cherry the price per switch is considerably lower.  Buying a few switches from a secondary retailer is always going to be more expensive per piece...
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Mon, 14 June 2010, 22:50:30
Quote from: Nonmouse;193156
I suspect that if one does like iOne or Filco and buys tens or hundreds of thousands directly form Cherry the price per switch is considerably lower.  Buying a few switches from a secondary retailer is always going to be more expensive per piece...


Absolutely true. And I suppose it is always dangerous to attribute to malice that which can be explained through incompetence.

I always had the hardest time buying 10k+++ unit quantities of Delphi parts back when I still worked as an EE, and I thought they were fighting competition there too; turns out they were just retarded (and shortly thereafter, bankrupt).

But venting is FUN! Also, $0.70/switch at u100 is exorbitant, so they deserve it. :biggrin:
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Harry_Y on Tue, 15 June 2010, 07:10:30
Quote from: ripster;193110
Nothing stopping you from doing a scratch build with ALPS.


Hmmmmmmm.

I may have to put that in mp projects to  do list.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 15 June 2010, 07:21:22
Quote from: Nonmouse;193156
I suspect that if one does like iOne or Filco and buys tens or hundreds of thousands directly form Cherry the price per switch is considerably lower.  Buying a few switches from a secondary retailer is always going to be more expensive per piece...


When pricing and that way of thought is done like that, it really doesn't let any room in for the little guy wanting to come up with a better idea.  It's just a way for the existant corporations to keep the competition out when it comes right down to it.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 15 June 2010, 08:37:04
Quote from: rantenki;193152
When do those IBM buckling spring patents expire?

As far as I understand, they already have. All US patents expire after 20 years after the filing date or 17 years after the issue date (depending on the year it was filed). If a patent was issued before 1990, then it is expired.

Problems might arise, though, if someone had patented a modified design later, and you had engineered your switch like it without knowing.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 15 June 2010, 11:22:10
This isn't a complete build from scratch. This is a Cherry brown function key mod for a Kinesis Contour. These replace the rubber dome function keys on an otherwise Cherry brown ergo keyboard. I'll solder point-to-point on these boards and probably use an old IDE/ATA ribbon to the other end of the wiring harness attached to the Kinesis PCB.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11117&stc=1&d=1276618264)

The holes were drilled using a template of the donor board, a Cherry G80-8200.

Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 15 June 2010, 12:18:53
Quote from: rantenki;193108
The code is going to be a stock arduino codebase, including a secondary usb port for programming, and with the addition of the V-USB (http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html) code to create the HID device.

The arduino part will be on the keyboard PCB itself, with a few extra inputs and outputs for the enterprising hacker (most notably, I hope to have some analog inputs left over, in case somebody wants a touchpad or joystick).


NOTE TO WHOEVER THINKS CHERRY MX BLUES ARE $1/ea everywhere...
Quantity Invoiced:
100   Price:
$0.699 -> $69.99 CDN (about $65USD) via Newark. Still pricy, but do-able.

I don't know how you value your time, but I will gladly pay $10 extra for NEW switches and not having to desolder X 100 :wink:

SRSly, check out Newark, with blues in stock right now. No browns sadly :mad:


  I'm not seeing stock on the MX1A-E1NW - and they are claiming the MX1A-E1NN has pins - I'm not certain this is correct.

The MX1A-E1NN may or may not be easy to mount without pins, anyone had fun with these?

And - since neither of these have the diodes - do they accept normal fast 1n4148 diodes or whatever those little orange glass things are usually?

curious.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: noctua on Tue, 15 June 2010, 12:42:20
I use these 1N4148 diodes too without problems, they fit very well.
You have to upgrade your switches manually..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11125&d=1276623649)
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Nonmouse on Tue, 15 June 2010, 12:46:13
Quote from: dfj;193307
I'm not seeing stock on the MX1A-E1NW - and they are claiming the MX1A-E1NN has pins - I'm not certain this is correct.


Not correct, According to Cherry (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm)
Code: [Select]
Code  PCB Mountg Pins
N       No pins  (metal frame required)
W       With pins

In  this (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5153&page=2) thread, the OP says the got  MA1A-E1DW switches (blue, with pins and diodes) from this (http://www.aeri.com/search/MX1AE1DW) place...
[/color]
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: unicomp on Tue, 15 June 2010, 12:59:45
This may well be a totally ignorant question, however I have not taken apart the Cherry switches before and therefore I do not have knowledge about their interiors. Is it possible to merely remove the springs from the inside of Cherry brown switches and then replace with those from Cherry blue switches? If one wishes to completed change all of the switches in a board is it necessary to take everything out and then replace, or can the springs just be swapped?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 15 June 2010, 13:21:17
Quote from: Nonmouse;193323

Not correct, According to Cherry (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm)
Code: [Select]
Code  PCB Mountg Pins
N       No pins  (metal frame required)
W       With pins
In  this (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5153&page=2) thread, the OP says the got  MA1A-E1DW switches (blue, with pins and diodes) from this (http://www.aeri.com/search/MX1AE1DW) place...
[/color]

Mrrr - ok, I'll read the spec and see what is involved in dealing with the pinless. I don' really want to spend an afternoon with a chisel, mallet and fibreglass dust everywhere. Digikey has them, and I won't get ding'd fer duty, or much shipping, so I need to factor that in - besides I'm due for an order soon anyway... finding M2s locally is a pain, so I do my bolt-mods with #4-40, but digikey's overpriced m2s are still way cheaper than my time...
  At least diodes are free. :)

update: oh - ok, the pins of the W are the plastic support pins, the electric pins are still in place. This is a physical problem (for me), not an electric one. for those that will be cutting or casting a plate for the keys, rather than drilling mounts in a base, the W's pins aren't important.


dfj
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: JBert on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:07:10
Quote from: unicomp;193330
This may well be a totally ignorant question, however I have not taken apart the Cherry switches before and therefore I do not have knowledge about their interiors. Is it possible to merely remove the springs from the inside of Cherry brown switches and then replace with those from Cherry blue switches? If one wishes to completed change all of the switches in a board is it necessary to take everything out and then replace, or can the springs just be swapped?
In keyboards where the Cherry switches are only kept on by their soldering, you can pop the switch's upper half.
Plate-mounted switches take more effort, the easiest is by desoldering them.

I don't know why you'd want to swap the springs though - browns and blues use the same spring. Did you mean to swap springs from browns to blacks to get a "cherry red" alike keyboard?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: unicomp on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:09:29
Quote from: JBert;193382
In keyboards where the Cherry switches are only kept on by their soldering, you can pop the switch's upper half.
Plate-mounted switches take more effort, the easiest is by desoldering them.

I don't know why you'd want to swap the springs though - browns and blues use the same spring. Did you mean to swap springs from browns to blacks to get a "cherry red" alike keyboard?


I don't know whether this is really stupid, however I was wondering whether one could forego the de-soldering/soldering and just swap the springs to get the feel of a blue switch in what was a brown switch enclosure.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:10:25
Quote from: JBert;193382
Did you mean to swap springs from browns to blacks to get a "cherry red" alike keyboard?


You would swap the stems not the springs.

Brown spring + Black stem = Cherry Red
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: JBert on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:17:55
And that's different how?

The end result is the same!
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:25:08
Um... No it's not.  Check the Cherry Wiki.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: unicomp on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:29:54
Quote from: ripster;193395
Because syntax order is important here.


What?

I mean the following:

Is it possible to convert a board that is using brown switches to one using blue switches by swapping the innards of the brown switches with the innards of blue switches?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:31:32
Quote from: ripster;193349
Get used to working in hundredth's of an inch precision before attempting this mod.


No worries - I'm good down to about a thou with hand tools, to get to a tenth (i.e. a tenth of a thou) I need to mess with my machines, though. :(

I'm no clickclack, but I did cast that key in the middle of my avatar...

perhaps too overconfident, :)
dfj
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:31:35
Quote from: unicomp
Is it possible to convert a board that is using brown switches to one using blue switches by swapping the innards of the brown switches with the innards of blue switches?

Yes, that's exactly right. You need to swap both the stems and the springs.  


(Perhaps not the springs in this case since they are basically the same.)
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: unicomp on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:34:16
So does this mean that one can actually do a conversion of one Cherry based board to a different switch type using no desoldering/soldering?
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 15:51:39
Yes, but only for PCB-mounted 'boards (like Cherry-made keyboards).  Plate-mounted 'boards (like Filcos) will need to be swapped be soldering.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 15 June 2010, 16:49:15
Quote from: ripster;193410
Blue Springs = Brown Springs.

So you just need to dig up some Black stems for your Cherry Brown Keyboard.

And make a special tool.

And have lots of time.


Do you have a shot of the internal differences between the blue and brown stems? converting one to the other without stealing parts might be kinda fun, if not reasonable...
(I have my first brown cherry on order, we'll see how this works out... I blame you for encouraging folks to try new things. -.- )

dfj
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 16:57:26
Everything you would ever want to know right here (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm).
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: Nonmouse on Tue, 15 June 2010, 17:00:37
Quote from: unicomp;193384
I don't know whether this is really stupid, however I was wondering whether one could forego the de-soldering/soldering and just swap the springs to get the feel of a blue switch in what was a brown switch enclosure.


If it's PCB mounted, you can remove the top half of the switch enclosure, swap out the stem (the stem is what controls the tactility or audible click- the spring controls the force required) and spring and you'll have that switch.  So, yes- if you have a board with browns that are PCB mounted, and a bunch of blue switches, you can open up each switch, swap the guts and change your board to a clicky board.  

If, however, the switches are plate-mounted, you usually have to unsolder them from the board to open the switch case.
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 15 June 2010, 17:01:36
Quote from: itlnstln;193435
Everything you would ever want to know right here (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm).


Perfect! Thanks, those pictures totally answered my question.
  Um, wish me luck. :)
Title: Anybody else doing scratch builds?
Post by: rantenki on Tue, 15 June 2010, 22:32:44
Quote from: ricercar;193291
This isn't a complete build from scratch. This is a Cherry brown function key mod for a Kinesis Contour. These replace the rubber dome function keys on an otherwise Cherry brown ergo keyboard. I'll solder point-to-point on these boards and probably use an old IDE/ATA ribbon to the other end of the wiring harness attached to the Kinesis PCB.


Very nice work!

The crappy rubber row in the Kinesis is the main reason I didn't go that way. Perhaps I should have just tried a mod...