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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:25:13

Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:25:13
ligo had posted the post here http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10219 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10219)

infact it's the first Keybaord by KBC, all PBT, Nkey, removable cable, light on keys.

now, we should try to get some good ideas and advice about the layout.

plz say what you what to say and give us the advice so we can make a better one.  

thanks a lot..



(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_100615/1006152204a854922d7006a714.jpg)


(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_100615/10061522098df29110b6ed39f1.jpg)


(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_100615/10061522115ffbeca354a53c64.jpg)


(http://qq.a.5d6d.com/userdirs/c/4/kbc/attachments/day_100615/10061522127ff0d84414296052.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:29:07
this keybaord is just a sample for pics and test.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:32:11
Is it just me, or are the pics broken?

I'm behind a firewall, so it might be me, but my top secret firewall buster also displays them as broken.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:41:49
me  too..........
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:51:46
done
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 07:57:25
My suggestions are:


If these three things were to come true, I'd be all over it.  Quality keycaps would be nice, too, but you guys seem to do a pretty good job with that, anyway.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 08:05:52
thanks man
Cherry browns   brown blue black would be available  .
If the same as hhkb maybe there would be some problems about the patent.I am not sure.
Easily available in the US    I will put it on ebay.

this is not our job, we do this by spare time.   we felt realy busy in the last year...
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Wed, 16 June 2010, 08:44:38
How about:
:wink:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:11:39
we'd provide shipping all over this planet.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: kriminal on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:14:20
links broken to me..
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:16:33
Quote from: kriminal;193632
links broken to me..


see the Attached Images
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:20:14
Just sell me the case, the keys/plate? for alps, and the pcb/cord/chip. I'll take care of the switches.  I want the one with the function row. Looks awesome.  How much to the US?

Do you have different plates for alps and cherry, or do they use the same plate as well?  Or it looks like maybe no mounting plate?  

Is there a Japanese version?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: jmpespxoreax on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:25:05
I think that the layout is awesome as it is. It helps for those of us with that layout in our muscle memory. However, you'll probably have to offer layout customization for others :P
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:34:34
The layout looks awesome, it should be close to the siig as possible, but with a full function key row.  Also possibly with the function key swapped with the control/alt keys.  There was a lot of complaint with that originally from normal people.

If you can give me flat black caps with red lettering, it'd be my dream board totally.

I'd like to see the board mounted with alps as well as cherry, alps won't be easy to do without a mounting plate to keep the switches straight.  I had that trouble with my minitouch pcb.  I had to fashion a plate for the main keys, cause they get all wobly and out of place without one.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:44:03
Yeah I just noticed the function key rowed board has no arrow keys either.  That's one thing I always hated about the earlier hhkb light/pro.  They need to get rid of the duplicate keys and junk on the right side and add arrow keys there.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:47:12
Quote from: ripster;193646
Copy this but not the short spacebar and language keys.  Leave the Enter key, /, Backspace configuration the way you have it.
Show Image
(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)


Easy enough to remap the rest - don't worry about any HHKB patents.  They can't patent their layout.


It's iso too.  Just copy the minitouch without the function keys, it's the most universal design.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:49:36
At least the mystery is solved I guess.  So it is a kbc board.  Maybe this'll be really awesome.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 09:58:30
Quote from: chimera15;193636
Just sell me the case, the keys/plate? for alps, and the pcb/cord/chip. I'll take care of the switches.  I want the one with the function row. Looks awesome.  How much to the US?

Do you have different plates for alps and cherry, or do they use the same plate as well?  Or it looks like maybe no mounting plate?  

Is there a Japanese version?



maybe later the case and keys pcb would be available
there is not japanese version now, maybe later.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:02:22
Quote from: ripster;193646
Copy this but not the short spacebar and language keys.  Leave the Enter key, /, Backspace configuration the way you have it.
Show Image
(http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/images/thumb_pdkb420w_l.jpg)


Easy enough to remap the rest - don't worry about any HHKB patents.  They can't patent their layout.

i like this layout, especially the small space key, I usually press the space key but left thumb,  I think it's not that important to make such a big space key.
most Chinese users used to use windows and paly game with left ctrl and alt
it's not a good choice to delet the left ctrl.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:03:34
Something like this.  The big backspace, and l shaped return is a requirement for me to buy it.

 (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1285/4705888921_a7627274d6_b.jpg)

With the function key version you can move the escape up to that row, and keep the siig blank space tab.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:07:19
With the function key position fixed.

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1266/4706543038_92e43d07a5_b.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:15:30
With tild and forward slash keys: With this version the backspace becomes delete when you press the function key.  Also function will be function keys in the top row, while function + alt is the numberpad.  Function alt makes backspace insert, or another key insert somewhere.



(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1288/4706563544_483cb9904c_b.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:20:05
Imsto, I think you're better off just building it and selling it instead of asking for opinions.  If you do want opinions, I think the best way to do it would be offer several options, and have people vote on them in a poll.  As far as layout goes, I think you're best off just using something that's already fairly common (HHKB or some other ANSI derivative).
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:27:52
Quote from: ripster;193664
Ugh.  

More like this.  Cram arrow keys into the right cluster.  Move that FCN key to the empty space on left.  Make sure the FCN key issues a scancode so if you don't like it's location you can move it any way you want it in AutoHotkey.  Done.
Show Image
(http://www.charvolant.org/~doug/xkb/html/img11.png)



oooooo..... this is pretty in dark theme.  I'll fix that sometime.

Nooo, you need to be able to press control/alt function keys with one hand and reach the others to be able to make it useful, since a lot of function keys require control+alt+f4 for instance.  It also leaves you working the numberpad with your left hand.  One of the problems with the super tiny layout, you really need two function keys to totally access the top row, if you have a number pad I'm realizing, but the function key on the right is totally unworkable.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:31:08
Quote from: jmpespxoreax;193641
I think that the layout is awesome as it is. It helps for those of us with that layout in our muscle memory. However, you'll probably have to offer layout customization for others :P

As usual, anything that doesn't pertain to the US doesn't exist...
Alas my dear supernumerary-twinky-key, I knew you well, and you'll be missed :pout:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:34:05
If you need everything to fit in an exact square, you extend the return out, and it gives you a truncated dsi smk-85 board which might be more workable, but will increase the size slightly.

(http://solutions.neilsquire.ca/images/Keyboard/Compact/dsi_smk85.jpg)

Same idea, just squish everything on the right over but because of the larger enter key, you can fit a long backspace and a tild or escape key to the left of the 1 instead of having to shoehorn it in.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:34:33
Quote from: British;193668
As usual, anything that doesn't pertain to the US doesn't exist...
Alas my dear supernumerary-twinky-key, I knew you well, and you'll be missed :pout:


It's not even that so much as you will find a lot of members here think that ANSI is little more efficient than ISO, but YMMV.  I am always a fan of keeping things familiar unless you are going to do something radically different.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:43:11
Quote from: British;193668
As usual, anything that doesn't pertain to the US doesn't exist...
Alas my dear supernumerary-twinky-key, I knew you well, and you'll be missed :pout:


There are many European members here. Very few of them actually use their native country's keyboard layout. There is a lot to be said for the US layout, in terms of the physical location of buttons, and the sensible mapping of keys, especially compared with some Central European monstrosities.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:50:08
Well, the only things I really regret ANSI is missing are said twinky key (AKA short left shift and <>) and the doubly-inverted-L-shaped enter.
And I would have probably be used to ANSI, were I to get swarmed by such keyboards at youth.
But I don't see many of those (if any) in France.

That twinky-key is a game-changer, in every meaning.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:54:37
I think those are two of the keys Ch_123 is talking about.  I know some of the European members like ANSI better as those two keys are different bringing the left Shift and Enter closer to the home row.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: unicomp on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:57:32
Depending upon the price, this does seem like a good idea. Clearly the layout is somewhat debatable, however I am sure that a consensus can be reached.

What kind of price would this be selling for?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:58:55
I can't believe I am in a discussion about layouts.

Imsto:

Throw up poll with a few options, and let us vote.  I think you might be wasting your time asking us for suggestions.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 10:59:36
Quote from: unicomp;193680
I am sure that a consensus can be reached.

You haven't been at Geekhack for long have you?

EDIT:  Oh wait, you have.  You need to come around more often, then.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 June 2010, 11:06:02
That's funny.  I thought the "dock it and use a keyboard response" was pretty funny,too.  I realize that's not always practical, but at the same time, I probably wouldn't want to spend a whole lot of time editing text on that thing.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 16 June 2010, 11:21:59
I am assuming (and, of course, I could be wrong) that the physical layout of the keys, as opposed to the assignment of functions to them, is fixed. Except that the ISO layout, as an alternative standard, would be a possible alternative. In that respect, I strongly favor the ANSI layout, because of the convenient location of the Enter key.

In another thread, I commented that the remote possibility (say, on some Linux systems) of the right and left Windows Shift keys serving different functions was enough to suggest one change to the layout as depicted: instead of replacing the right Windows Shift key by the Fn key, replace the Windows Menu key by the Fn key. Since Windows Menu is not a shift key, reaching it by an Fn-combination should be acceptable.

Other than that, I think the big issue would be to make the keyboard programmable. Some people would prefer a layout for the Fn-shifted keys like that of the HHKB, and others one like that of the upcoming MiniGuru. My own preference doesn't resemble either of those layouts.

When it comes to more radical changes:

For a product category between keyboards like yours, the HHKB, and the MiniGuru on the one hand, and a simple tenkeyless keyboard on the other, I've shown this illustration to the group:

(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/reas5.gif)

to suggest that most of the keys outside the main typing area on a tenkeyless could be put in the traditional positions of the function keys, making it obvious how F1 through F12 would be reached with Fn, thus leading to a keyboard almost as compact as an HHKB, but a whole lot less intimidating (and therefore having a broader potential customer base).

Incidentally, the design as shown in the picture has the flaw of not having an Fn key; instead, one uses the key that would be Fn-shifted to F8 to set up one's choice of Fn key. I don't anticipate a real commercial design being that radical.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: Laggy-gaga on Wed, 16 June 2010, 11:31:02
The pre-order price for KBC 40% will be around 120USD without postage,
but the point when it can come up.
Base on KBC  tenkeyless, I dare this 40% can make it before miniguru.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 11:33:17
Quote from: itlnstln;193676
I think those are two of the keys Ch_123 is talking about.  I know some of the European members like ANSI better as those two keys are different bringing the left Shift and Enter closer to the home row.


I'm largely indifferent to that key - because I learned to type on an ISO layout, I tend to hit the left-most part of the key without much difficulty. My main issue with the ISO layout is the enter that requires you to move your hand to hit it. I suppose looking at the ISO layout, that if you do proper touch typing, you'd have to reach your pinky over further to hit left shift. The way I type has adapted to deal with this, apparently.

Truth be told, the main reason I use the US layout is because it's a pain in the ass to find good ISO layout keyboards for cheap.

Quote
Well, the only things I really regret ANSI is missing are said twinky key (AKA short left shift and <>) and the doubly-inverted-L-shaped enter.


So basically you dislike everything about the ANSI layout that is different to the ISO one :P

Quote
Base on KBC tenkeyless, I dare this 40% can make it before miniguru.


Who cares which one gets out first... the MiniGuru looks like a far more interesting product with trackpoint and programmability.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 16 June 2010, 14:39:09
I like it.  

Do all the keys have the same profile?  If so, I could swap the keycaps to a dvorak layout.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: spolia optima on Wed, 16 June 2010, 14:48:41
Love it, but does it have a ten-key layer?
If not, dealbreaker.
A right-hand FN is okay if it's a toggle switch. if it's momentary, the left is bettah.

I have become so accustom to my netbook that I now prefer a staggered tenkey pad. So convenient!
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 15:51:16
Quote from: Laggy-gaga;193690
The pre-order price for KBC 40% will be around 120USD without postage,
but the point when it can come up.
Base on KBC  tenkeyless, I dare this 40% can make it before miniguru.


Is that the name of it? 40%? Or are you just referring to it's cut down nature? Is $120 with switches or without?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 15:54:01
Quote from: ripster;193729
I've been saying that for ages.  Grab a laptop layout and jam it into a HHKB clone.

It's not hard.

Yeah, that would work.  You end up basically with what I showed, except no L shaped enter key.  I'm not sure it's possible to do though since the caps would be non standard, but the layout is almost exactly the same as my format.

(http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00LBMtnVFrhGpW/Laptop-Keyboard-for-HP-500-530.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1288/4706563544_483cb9904c_b.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:04:23
Ah I figured out how you can make my layout square based on the laptop keyboard, you just make the tab/shift/control keys bigger.  

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4707430818_5215c6105c_b.jpg)

That's like the perfect layout right there.  The only problem would be the number pad conflicting with the function keys when function is pressed really.

How does the hhkb handle that? It just doesnt have a number pad?  Oh yup, my hhhkb light doesn't have a number pad, that sucks.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:15:39
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4706816197_2c6a2caab5_b.jpg)

There, one function key turns on the number pad, the other function key the function row.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: lmnop on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:16:16
miniguru is going to be a billion dollars.

my favorite layout

(http://foodnetworkhumor.com/wp-content/uploads//paula-deen-keyboard.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:18:11
Alternatively, you could get rid of the caps lock on the board, put the control where it should be, as I think is the preferred method, put the alt in the lower left, and use the other two buttons this leaves open for the two fn keys, and bury capslock in a function key somewhere on the board.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: clickclack on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:23:11
Quote from: lmnop;193755

Show Image
(http://foodnetworkhumor.com/wp-content/uploads//paula-deen-keyboard.jpg)

haahaa

That keyboard is missing a really, really small key that just says "vegetable".
LoLz
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:25:29
Like this:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4707488276_d95ef93730_b.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: clickclack on Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:28:04
To chimera15-

Damn! You're on a mission! =P
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Thu, 17 June 2010, 02:03:03
Quote from: ch_123;193692
Truth be told, the main reason I use the US layout is because it's a pain in the ass to find good ISO layout keyboards for cheap.

Cheap or not, it's a pain, from my very-limited experience.
Quote from: ch_123;193692
So basically you dislike everything about the ANSI layout that is different to the ISO one :P

Err... I thought there were some other differences besides those two keys... :eek:
Thing is, it's not that I *dislike* ANSI, it's more than I'm used to ISO, obviously.
As I hinted earlier, that twinky-key is quite useful in games, when there's a lot of keys in use and staying around WASD (well, ZQSD) is important... but that's when that key is actually recognized by the games, which is definitely not a regular behavior (probably because some developers are lazy sods).

Also, I'm not a touch-typist (and that won't happen any time soon), so I'm not really concerned by the enter-key accessibility.

But well, I was mostly *****ing for the sake of *****ing, since having Europe regarded as a 4th-world country for some "technologies" has been quite common since... ages.
And yes, I might be overexaggerating a bit :wink:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: DryDry on Thu, 17 June 2010, 02:54:38
Quote from: imsto;193656
i like this layout, especially the small space key, I usually press the space key but left thumb,  I think it's not that important to make such a big space key.
most Chinese users used to use windows and paly game with left ctrl and alt
it's not a good choice to delet the left ctrl.


1、little enter
2、big backspace
3、us layout
4、don't same as hhkb
5、several colors to select
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: DryDry on Thu, 17 June 2010, 02:59:09
6、KBC fonts
7、abs\pom\pbt
8、carve my name
Title: tcptg
Post by: clickclack on Thu, 17 June 2010, 03:34:07
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11188&stc=1&d=1276763320)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11189&stc=1&d=1276763355)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11190&stc=1&d=1276763371)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11191&stc=1&d=1276763395)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11192&stc=1&d=1276763410)

haaha no kiddin =)
Didn't really answer the question though ;P
So many of you are members of that site/forum. How ever did you guys hold it in, haahaaahaa.
Don't tell us you guys got sick of your "Ducky" already. I think this new endevour will be just a wee bit more expensive for ya.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: J888www on Thu, 17 June 2010, 04:51:06
I think the Ducky will stay, maybe this new project is the Plum replacement. Production should be relatively cheap in China and if successful, with good quality and low price, the initial cost will more than worthwhile. Imagine Desktop Systems having mechanical kbds options.....rather than rubber domes.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: DryDry on Thu, 17 June 2010, 05:23:19
Quote from: clickclack;193945
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11188&stc=1&d=1276763320)


Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11189&stc=1&d=1276763355)


Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11190&stc=1&d=1276763371)


Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11191&stc=1&d=1276763395)


Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11192&stc=1&d=1276763410)


haaha no kiddin =)
Didn't really answer the question though ;P
So many of you are members of that site/forum. How ever did you guys hold it in, haahaaahaa.
Don't tell us you guys got sick of your "Ducky" already. I think this new endevour will be just a wee bit more expensive for ya.


imsto needs more advices from all over the world ^_^
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 17 June 2010, 05:43:03
DIY KIT YES! Where can I get one then?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Thu, 17 June 2010, 09:04:55
when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Thu, 17 June 2010, 09:23:08
Quote from: clickclack;193945

haaha no kiddin =)
Didn't really answer the question though ;P
So many of you are members of that site/forum. How ever did you guys hold it in, haahaaahaa.
Don't tell us you guys got sick of your "Ducky" already. I think this new endevour will be just a wee bit more expensive for ya.


I do not quit understand what's your meaning,  ducky is a production of a Taiwan company, KBC is a production of an organization of China. but both been made by the same factory. but in fact, thing could not be done just in one factory, there's some small parts should be made by the supplier.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Thu, 17 June 2010, 09:26:36
Quote from: J888www;193954
I think the Ducky will stay, maybe this new project is the Plum replacement. Production should be relatively cheap in China and if successful, with good quality and low price, the initial cost will more than worthwhile. Imagine Desktop Systems having mechanical kbds options.....rather than rubber domes.


buddy, we can't make a kbd with the same price as PLUM. I have to say mechanical kbds are a little expensive for Chinese people.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Thu, 17 June 2010, 09:37:06
Quote from: ripster;193729
Grab a laptop layout
Aren't there a lot of "compact keyboards", admittedly, pretty much all rubber domes, that do that already?

Of course, the trouble with those is that they have a lot of reduced-size keys, and mechanical switches usually take up enough space that only full-sized keys are possible. But there are older laptop layouts that used all full-sized keys.

Also, I notice that the "Random2" keyboard pictured is the sort of thing I'm suggesting: just the ANSI main typing area, with Esc and function keys at the top... but this one also has one extra key on the left.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: J888www on Thu, 17 June 2010, 12:05:38
Quote from: imsto;193982
We can't make a kbd with the same price as PLUM. I have to say mechanical kbds are a little expensive for Chinese people.
I did not suggest selling KBDs to the Chinese people, but to produce them in China and sell it to the rest of the World.
Well, whatever the objective, I wish you well. More supply = lower market price = good for all of us consumers.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 17 June 2010, 15:07:59
The current layout they have is somewhat interesting in that it appears to be the same for a right hander/left hander.  Do left hand typists use right shift more or something? I've never used the right shift on a keyboard once in my whole life as a right hander.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: phoenix on Thu, 17 June 2010, 18:24:42
imsto, I've already said in another post that I would've liked the ` key to remain on the first layer so that I don't have to press Fn for it when I type LaTeX, but extremely few people type LaTeX, and even in LaTeX I only need it for quotations. So should you listen to me? No! (The same is true for quite a few comments on your own forum where they mention how they type in all these nonstandard ways. Ignore them. Unless you provide complete programmability, you will never make everyone happy. BTW, I'm appalled by the arrogance of a certain member there in a similar thread.)

I used to really like the way it's done on the HHKB but I had trouble switching between the ANSI and HHKB layouts (kept pressing caps lock for ctrl and \ for BS on other keyboards). I can't always expect to have an HHKB with me, so I'm very much supportive of a keyboard layout that's as close to ANSI as possible.

Some ideas:

- An extra key to the right of the right shift key, like HHKB. Can be another Fn, can be `. The standard right shift occupies too much space.

- Fn immediately to the left of space for the left thumb, without sacrificing Ctrl, Alt or Windows in their usual positions. Who says there can be only 3 keys to the left of space? Why not 4? I press space with my right thumb and it almost never reaches beyond the center of the V key. Are there a lot of people who use their left thumb or frequently use both for space?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 17 June 2010, 21:58:06
Your keyboard (pictures in the original post) is beautiful.

I think the keyboard enthusiast market wants a keyboard with NORMAL PC layout keys like you have in the original post.  I have two HHKB and do not use them simply because the Backspace, Tilde/Backtick, and Esc keys are in the wrong places.  It's the only reason I have not bought the HHKB Pro.  The layout must be the de-facto layout everyone already knows.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:07:13
phoenix, thanks!   I press the space by left thumb..


I think there're a few problems with this small keyboard layout

--something about ~, I do not know what kind of people would use this, but I never use it. esc should been put to topleft, so where to put the ~

-- arrow keys, seems the best choice is put them on rightbotom, but it seems that the right shift has got the position. and if the arrow keys should be used with the fn key to make it work.

-- something about the shi* windows keys and menu button. I think there should be dip switch to change the windows button to something else like esc or tab etc.

-- where to put the del. most people are used to press del besides the \
people need to get used to the new position of the del

-- the other keys like insert home end pageup pagedown etc.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: Megaweapon on Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:18:47
Quote from: imsto;194099
--something about ~, I do not know what kind of people would use this, but I never use it. esc should been put to topleft, so where to put the ~


The kind of people who use a Unix-type command line on a regular basis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_directory#Unix
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:20:23
Here is what I'm thinking of.
Just a simple US ANSI keyboard with the right third cut off.  THe missing keys can be added using Function keys.
The media keys and other jobbage would be used by combining a "FN" key (not pictured) in conjunction with the "F1-F12" keys.

Well, actually, a SIIG MiniTouch Plus / BTC-5100C with the arrow keys in the correct place.  That keyboard is the perfect tenkeyless board but for the rubber dome cheapness.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:31:51
My last design is the only one that makes full sense that keeps as much with the original ansi layout, and allows for the missing keys, and a keypad.  One consideration may be to swap the escape and `~ key since people seem to like it by the 1, and escape really isn't used that much, or put it down by the right of the spacebar.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4707488276_d95ef93730_b.jpg)

Quote from: aegrotatio;194095
Your keyboard (pictures in the original post) is beautiful.

I think the keyboard enthusiast market wants a keyboard with NORMAL PC layout keys like you have in the original post.  I have two HHKB and do not use them simply because the Backspace, Tilde/Backtick, and Esc keys are in the wrong places.  It's the only reason I have not bought the HHKB Pro.  The layout must be the de-facto layout everyone already knows.

Yeah I feel the same about the hhkb, the layout is just too odd, except for the control position which I really like. That's why with my mods I rewire all that, but yeah...who puts a delete/backspace  key in the qwerty row..wtf
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:40:13
Here is what I'm thinking of.
Just a simple US ANSI keyboard with the right third cut off.  THe missing keys can be added using Function keys.
The media keys and other jobbage would be used by combining a "FN" key in conjunction with the "F1-F12" keys.

Well, actually, a SIIG MiniTouch Plus / BTC-5100C with the arrow keys in the correct place.  That keyboard is the perfect tenkeyless board except for the rubber dome cheapness.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11221&stc=1&d=1276832398)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 17 June 2010, 23:00:24
Quote from: aegrotatio;194110
Here is what I'm thinking of.
Just a simple US ANSI keyboard with the right third cut off.  THe missing keys can be added using Function keys.
The media keys and other jobbage would be used by combining a "FN" key in conjunction with the "F1-F12" keys.

Well, actually, a SIIG MiniTouch Plus / BTC-5100C with the arrow keys in the correct place.  That keyboard is the perfect tenkeyless board except for the rubber dome cheapness.

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11221&stc=1&d=1276832398)


I don't think there's as much problem when you have a function row compact, the problem is the hhbk no function row one.  Yours uses non standard caps which is always a pain.  The siig minitouch is already this kind of board though, that works perfectly, except for the mixed up function/control key, and cut down left column that eliminates the `~ on the number row.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 17 June 2010, 23:15:13
Quote from: chimera15;194120
I don't think there's as much problem when you have a function row compact, the problem is the hhbk no function row one.  Yours uses non standard caps which is always a pain.  The siig minitouch is already this kind of board though, that works perfectly, except for the mixed up function/control key, and cut down left column that eliminates the `~ on the number row.

Yeah, I was wondering about the non-standard sized keycaps.
With another two hours I could draw one with all same-sized keycaps.

My goal is a keyboard that is the very same as a real keyboard just like the SIIG Minitouch Plus/5100C but with all standard-size keycaps.  I don't need or want arrow keys, but I think most people do want page up/down and delete/insert, and having F-keys satisfies those folks who use multimedia keys as you would use Fn-F12 for whatever.  That's the idea I want to convey, this same picture, but make the keys all the same standard size.

Just a revised SIIG Minitouch Plus/BTC 5100C with the arrow keys in the right place and the bezel cut off so the keys are flush with the edge.  The ABS M1 keyboard is close to achieving this but has the dreaded numeric keypad and arrow key/pageup-pagedown cluster that can be reduced to a vertical row of useful keys.

Just for the sake of completeness, I'm talking about the new SIIG MiniTouch Plus a.k.a. BTC-5100C, not the old clicky one with the weird layout that drives me insane.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 17 June 2010, 23:27:14
Quote from: aegrotatio;194124
Yeah, I was wondering about the non-standard sized keycaps.
With another two hours I could draw one with all same-sized keycaps.

My goal is a keyboard that is the very same as a real keyboard just like the SIIG Minitouch Plus/5100C but with all standard-size keycaps.  I don't need or want arrow keys, but I think most people do want page up/down and delete/insert, and having F-keys satisfies those folks who use multimedia keys as you would use Fn-F12 for whatever.  That's the idea I want to convey, this same picture, but make the keys all the same standard size.

Just a revised SIIG Minitouch Plus/BTC 5100C with the arrow keys in the right place and the bezel cut off so the keys are flush with the edge.  The ABS M1 keyboard is close to achieving this but has the dreaded numeric keypad and arrow key/pageup-pagedown cluster that can be reduced to a vertical row of useful keys.

Just for the sake of completeness, I'm talking about the new SIIG MiniTouch Plus a.k.a. BTC-5100C, not the old clicky one with the weird layout that drives me insane.

What about the old layout drives you insane? It's almost exactly the same as a laptop layout.  Just the function/control key being swapped, and no `~ key in the number row?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Thu, 17 June 2010, 23:31:42
I took another look and I like it.  I agree the tilde ~ key has to be put somewhere.  I think the layout you have is good.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 18 June 2010, 00:15:18
Quote from: chimera15;194126
What about the old layout drives you insane? It's almost exactly the same as a laptop layout.  Just the function/control key being swapped, and no `~ key in the number row?
Some of your illustrations showed layouts with no right-hand shift key.

That would be completely impossible to type with in a normal fashion. Having the cursor keys in the normal arrangement just isn't that high a priority; having both shift keys is absolutely essential.

Quote from: DryDry;193955
imsto needs more advices from all over the world ^_^
From the bbs.kbc-china.com page, the keyboard in part 4 of the picture (now missing piece 5) is called 新概念 60%, the Chinese characters apparently meaning "new concept". Since that one is depicted with blank keys, I don't know what type of layout they have planned for it.

What puzzles me, though, is that there's a page at www.kbc-china.com, but when I try to go to their Products page, I get a 404 error. Their BBS page works, but their corporate page hasn't been fully set up yet. Of course, if this is an enthusiast-based company which hasn't quite got their first products ready yet, that may not be as strange as it seems.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Fri, 18 June 2010, 00:45:36
60% is another kbd like 40% but there are f1-f12
the http://www.kbc-china.com is not finished, we can not do the coding, looking for somebody to do that.lol     or we can spend some money to hire someone to do that. but....
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: kriminal on Fri, 18 June 2010, 00:47:31
ugh at lay-out discussions...
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 18 June 2010, 01:12:31
Quote from: kriminal;194143
ugh at lay-out discussions...
Then I suppose I should apologize to you in advance, because presumably that's the sort of advice that is being sought.

My guess is that the 60% keyboard is intended to be something like this in its default state:



Given that the other keyboard is shown with the right-hand Windows Shift key being replaced by the Fn key, presumably that's what is intended for this one as well. As I've noted before, I suggest replacing the Windows Menu key by the Fn key instead.

So, in Fn-shift, the top row, going across, would be Esc, F1 - F12, and finally Windows Menu.

There are alternative choices, of course. Pause/Break is more "dangerous" than Esc, so perhaps the key in the upper left would normally be Esc, and then Fn-shifted to be Pause/Break.

Or, since Scroll Lock is very rarely used, the key in the upper left might normally be Esc, Fn-shifted to be Pause/Break, and Pause/Break would replace the key shown as Scroll Lock in the diagram.

Also, accidentally hitting Caps Lock is a common complaint. So, Caps Lock might be made into a second left-hand Fn key (and then swapped with left-hand Ctrl as well, possibly). In that case, since the key in the upper right is Num Lock, it would be easier to remember if that key were Fn-shifted into Caps Lock... and Fn-backspace were used for the Windows Menu key.

The extra key on the ANSI layout should somehow be available. If it isn't a physical key (with room made for it by shortening the right-hand shift key), I suppose the most obvious option is Fn-Tab (or even an Fn-shift of the ~` key, but I would recommend against that as confusing, when the keyboard is in a state in which none of the other printable character keys have Fn shifts).

As long as you've got an Fn key, however, I think it would be a good idea to have the option of switching the keyboard into... shall we call it Otaku mode... in which the printable character keys do have Fn shifts, such as allow you to use the keyboard without ever using the top row - presumably with the same layout as used for the product without a top row.

The numeric keypad should go in the standard laptop locations, which are visible in the image. As Fn-shift is not expected to bring up the numeric keypad, there is no conflict in using the same keys for Fn-shifts, and my personal preference for the layout of that kind of keyboard, which matches neither the MiniGuru proposal nor the HHKB, would be something like this:

Code: [Select]
-----------------------------------------------------------
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |       |
|ESC|F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |F9 |F10|F11|F12|       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|     |   |   |   |PG |   |   |CAP|WIN| < |   |   |   |     |
|     |   |INS|HOM|UP |   |   |LK |MNU| > |   |   |   |     |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|      |NUM|   |   |PG |   |   |   |   | ^ | | |   |        |
|      |LK |DEL|END|DN |   |   |<- | ->| | | v |   |        |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|        |   |PRT|SCL|PAU|   |   |   |   |   |   |      |   |
|        |   |SC |LK |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |      |   |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|     |    |    |                      |    |    |    |     |
|     |    |    |                      |    |    |    |     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
The Fn-shifts for the cursor keys are directly on the home-row positions of the right hand. (Which makes a left-hand Fn key important.)

The keys from Insert to Page Down are laid out exactly as on the standard keyboard, making them easy to find, and they're either on the home row, or up-reaches. The more difficult down-reaches are reserved for the less common Print Screen to Pause/Break keys, again in their standard relationship.

These keys are in columns 2, 3, and 4, not 1, 2, and 3, so that the little finger instead of the index finger is the one not used.

The <> key represents the extra ISO-layout printable character key; perhaps Fn-~` would be better than Fn-O for that key (but right now, that position is used for Esc, as being the easiest to remember).

Also, note that cursor left and cursor right are the Fn-shifts of J and K, so that they're under the two strongest fingers, although that is not the same arrangement as that of the cursor keys in the top row, which puts cursor left and cursor right on the right, so that cursor left is closer to backspace.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 01:13:57
Quote from: quadibloc;194140
Some of your illustrations showed layouts with no right-hand shift key.

That would be completely impossible to type with in a normal fashion. Having the cursor keys in the normal arrangement just isn't that high a priority; having both shift keys is absolutely essential.

From the bbs.kbc-china.com page, the keyboard in part 4 of the picture (now missing piece 5) is called 新概念 60%, the Chinese characters apparently meaning "new concept". Since that one is depicted with blank keys, I don't know what type of layout they have planned for it.

What puzzles me, though, is that there's a page at www.kbc-china.com, but when I try to go to their Products page, I get a 404 error. Their BBS page works, but their corporate page hasn't been fully set up yet. Of course, if this is an enthusiast-based company which hasn't quite got their first products ready yet, that may not be as strange as it seems.

You use the right hand shift key? When? I've never ever used the right hand shift and never seen or talked to anyone that does...

Are you left handed?

The normal minitouch has a right hand shift.  My modified hhkb layout doesn't to get rid of the extra side row and shrink it even farther, and I eleminated the right hand shift because I didn't know that people ever use it.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: kishy on Fri, 18 June 2010, 01:18:01
I use right shift all the time. Most people who type use right shift quite a bit...

Of course, if you can get away without it, more power to you. Just seems like right pinky finger is going to shrivel up and fall off from disuse, that's all.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Fri, 18 June 2010, 01:28:05
Quote from: quadibloc;194147
Stuff
I wasn't expecting to answer that in this very thread, and maybe you have dismissed it already in some other thread, but here goes anyway...

Why oh why, do you put your arrow keys in those positions ?
It is counter-intuitive regarding what regular (and even all those inversed-T layouts on tenkeyless and such) keyboards use, that is: index and ring fingers on left and right arrows, and thus the middle switching between up and down.
TL;DR: Index and ring fingers are static, middle is moving.

So when you move all those keys to just one row, that would mean that the left and right arrow keys are on the "outer rim", no matter what, and so up and down are put in-between.

And let's praise UNIX, it's been done before, check how vi does it:
[h] [j] [k] [l] as
[down] [up]
[/B]


Quote from: kishy
use right shift all the time. Most people who type use right shift quite a bit...

Of course, if you can get away without it, more power to you. Just seems like right pinky finger is going to shrivel up and fall off from disuse, that's all.
The more reason to shorten that left shift key and put some other key there (no, I'm not talking about ISO per se, but that's one more possibility to press on... more possibilities can only be good, right ?) :wink:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 01:46:30
Quote from: kishy;194149
I use right shift all the time. Most people who type use right shift quite a bit...

Of course, if you can get away without it, more power to you. Just seems like right pinky finger is going to shrivel up and fall off from disuse, that's all.

So when do you use it? What keys do you capitalize with it? I use my pinky finger to press enter and '".  I started a new topic on this.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: clickclack on Fri, 18 June 2010, 04:32:10
Quote from: J888www;193954
...relatively cheap in China and if successful, with good quality and low price...

no doubt ;)
Quote from: J888www;193954
... . Imagine Desktop Systems having mechanical kbds options.....rather than rubber domes.

Just like it used to be =P
Ahhh... those were the days, the days where the computers sucked but the keybaords ruled! =D

Quote from: chimera15;193956
DIY KIT YES! Where can I get one then?

I notice that too!

Quote from: imsto;193979
when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.

hey now =)

Quote from: imsto;193981
I do not quit understand what's your meaning,  ducky is a production of a Taiwan company, KBC is a production of an organization of China. but both been made by the same factory. but in fact, thing could not be done just in one factory, there's some small parts should be made by the supplier.

Ooo, see this is where things are getting a bit fuzzy. I think there is either something lost in translation going on or something else entirely.

My meaning is this-
Quote from: imsto;193981
ducky is the kbd from our factory but not designed by us...here is a couple of pic of ducky production of ducky and KBC....


now couple that with what you just said and we have the root of my question. And that question is Whuuuuah?

LIT-lost in translation?  (i wonder if it will catch on) =P
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Fri, 18 June 2010, 04:52:06
Quote from: clickclack;194184
no doubt ;)

My meaning is this-


now couple that with what you just said and we have the root of my question. And that question is Whuuuuah?

LIT-lost in translation?  (i wonder if it will catch on) =P


my man, I am still puzzled.... the difference of thinking between us maybe.
Is that that I said "our factory" and "the factory in Taiwan" that makes your question?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Fri, 18 June 2010, 04:54:20
Quote from: quadibloc;194147

Then I suppose I should apologize to you in advance, because presumably that's the sort of advice that is being sought.
Quote


thank u so much that type so many words and cost me half an hour to read it. and have't got all with my shi* English.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Fri, 18 June 2010, 04:56:08
Quote from: clickclack;194184

hey now =)


I think there would be, but later.  
have not got enough ideas now.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Fri, 18 June 2010, 04:59:46
going back home to see the world cup.
German vs Serbia
I like German, I wrote a letter to Mattheus when I was a kid, and he did not answer me. :(.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:12:37
All this layout talk only furthers my belief that PFU got it about as close to "right" with the HHKB as possible for a keyboard this small. That said, about the only thing left on my radar is an HHKB with brown Cherrys.

Carry on.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:42:29
Quote from: itlnstln;194230
All this layout talk only furthers my belief that PFU got it about as close to "right" with the HHKB as possible for a keyboard this small. That said, about the only thing left on my radar is an HHKB with brown Cherrys.

Carry on.



I can appreciate the difficulty they had, but they got it far from right.  Mine is much closer with two function keys. I just need to figure out a way to shoehorn in a right shift key and it'll be near perfect.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:38:30
My HHKB has two Fn keys.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:57:24
Quote from: itlnstln;194280
My HHKB has two Fn keys.

No, it has one function key in two spots.  This board layout would have 2 separate function keys, function 1 and function 2.  Function 1 turns keypad on.  Function 2 turns the number row to function keys.  With two function keys it opens up the possibilities of lots of second and tertiary layers on the board, for instance, it could also be that pressing both function keys together would cause the number pad to turn into a second arrow/page up/page down home, end pad.  

Here's another version.  This incorporates a right shift that everyone seemed appalled that a board wouldn't have, but it looses the t inverted arrow format and goes with the new siig arrow key layout.  I think it works, I could live with this version.  I also put the capslock back to the default position since there was some complaint about that.  Essentially the difference with this is that it just sacrifices a larger spacebar to fit more keys in.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4711358073_e04acedf86_b.jpg)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: unicomp on Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:25:09
Quote from: ripster;194300
My keyboard is smaller and iPad friendly.


Good luck typing on that.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:29:38
It looks like my phone's keyboard.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Fri, 18 June 2010, 22:57:06
I have to say, the BTC-5100C / SIIG Minitouch Plus (non-clicky) keyboards have close to the perfect layout.  That's why I have five of them.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: clickclack on Sat, 19 June 2010, 05:40:03
Quote from: imsto;194190
my man, I am still puzzled.... the difference of thinking between us maybe.
Is that that I said "our factory" and "the factory in Taiwan" that makes your question?

I think I am just as confused as you (perhaps more so)
Essentially I am confused about these things-
KBT
KBC
enthusiasts
manufacturer
Designs
Distributers/marketers

There seems to be some crossover and some contradicting information. I can further refine this if necessary.

Quote from: imsto;194192

thank u so much that type so many words and cost me half an hour to read it. and have't got all with my shi* English.

Ouch! I hope that was a lost in translation thing again. I mean the thread is titled "KBC keyboard needs your advice".

Quote from: ripster;194311
I'm not old fashioned like you guys.
My thumbs have evolved to a higher level.

ORLY?
Are these those same thumbs??? Mutation/evolution, meh, same finger different thimble =D
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11289&stc=1&d=1276944056)
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Sat, 19 June 2010, 08:22:14
Quote from: clickclack;194627
ORLY?
Are these those same thumbs??? Mutation/evolution, meh, same finger different thimble =D


Oh,man! it looks sick...
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 19 June 2010, 08:42:08
Quote from: imsto;194651
Oh,man! it looks sick...


Yeah, he's got right hands growing out of his left hand, that's just wrong, they should be tiny left hands, what is he, a mutant?
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: JBert on Sat, 19 June 2010, 13:11:59
Quote from: imsto;193979
when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.
I also hope to hear about it...
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Sat, 19 June 2010, 20:14:01
I think a diy kit would not cheap than a kbd assembled in the factory.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 19 June 2010, 20:19:06
Quote from: imsto;194811
I think a diy kit would not cheap than a kbd assembled in the factory.

Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it. That's skilled labor you now don't have to pay someone to do.  You essentially make the buyer the workforce.  You also don't have to pay for the solder/soldering iron, or overhead for the factory like a building.

It should be tremendously cheaper, unless you're just running a sweatshop factory.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 20 June 2010, 00:12:31
Quote from: chimera15;194816
Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it.
True, but it might be harder to pack the box filled with components for safe shipment than it would be the completed keyboard.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 20 June 2010, 00:22:55
Quote from: British;194151
Why oh why, do you put your arrow keys in those positions ?
It is counter-intuitive regarding what regular (and even all those inversed-T layouts on tenkeyless and such) keyboards use, that is: index and ring fingers on left and right arrows, and thus the middle switching between up and down.
TL;DR: Index and ring fingers are static, middle is moving.

So when you move all those keys to just one row, that would mean that the left and right arrow keys are on the "outer rim", no matter what, and so up and down are put in-between.

And let's praise UNIX, it's been done before, check how vi does it:
[h] [j] [k] [l] as
[down] [up]
[/B]
Well, for one thing, the diagram in question was referring to key placement on a specific keyboard design. This keyboard design didn't have keys in the appropriate positions for an inverted-T cursor key layout, no matter how much it might be wished for.

As for the positions of the cursor keys, though, while it is true that the Unix key assignments might be considered a standard, those are Ctrl-shift key assignments. As such, they are constrained by the fact that ctrl-H (used for cursor left) is backspace, and ctrl-J (used for cursor down) is line feed.

On computer terminals in general, historically the inverted-T arrangement has not been common. Instead, a related arrangement, that used on the 122-key terminal keyboard, where the four cursor keys surround a central key, is found on the most elaborate keyboards.

On other keyboards, it has been the nearly invariable rule that the cursor up and cursor down keys are together, and the cursor left and cursor right keys are together. Sometimes these four keys are in a square 2 by 2 array, with cursor up and down in one row, and cursor left and right in another.

So I was trying to follow historical standard practice. The most common cursor movement key is cursor left, and so I put that near the related backspace key when the key was a separate key at the top of the keyboard, and under the strongest finger when it is an Fn-shift in the main typing area.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Sun, 20 June 2010, 10:46:17
I see your point, but it just doesn't feel natural to me...
Also I don't get that ctrl-shift part, I'm afraid.

Maybe not the best place to talk about this, though :wink:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: J888www on Sun, 20 June 2010, 11:24:03
I have a feeling of déjá vu that this discussion is the same same as another post in regard to a certain "SmallSage" keyboard. Why need to repeat oneself ?, just go read the other post.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 20 June 2010, 16:40:15
Quote from: British;194943
Also I don't get that ctrl-shift part, I'm afraid.

Maybe not the best place to talk about this, though
I think this is a reasonable place, since it is of interest to some at least.

Back in the old days, computers were really big boxes in far-off rooms. People used terminals to communicate with them (assuming they were the modern time-sharing kind; otherwise, they would use punched cards).

Depending on who made the computer, and when, it might be that they would use ASCII terminals, which were made as commodity products by many different manufacturers. DEC, in particular, did a lot to standardize ASCII video terminals, which is why many terminal emulation programs will by default follow the protocols of the DEC VT-100 terminal.

ASCII terminals, though, were ultimately based on such devices as the good old ASR 33 Teletype.

When you press the "Carriage Return" key on an ASCII terminal, or when you hold down CTRL and press M, the terminal will send the character whose code is the number 13 (or 0001101 in binary). So the computer at the receiving end cannot tell which one of those two alternatives you chose to do.

A Teletype, and some ASCII terminals, also have a LINE FEED key; that sends the same code as control-J; the number 10 (or 0001010 in binary).

The Teletype did not have a Backspace key, but most ASCII terminals did; that sent the same code as control-H, the number 8.

And so on.

Later on, some ASCII terminals had keys on their keyboards which didn't correspond to ASCII codes either for control characters or printable characters. Thus, ! might be used to set a tab; #1 might be sent when the F1 key is pressed.

Originally, each terminal was different; eventually, a standard for escape codes was adopted that allowed numerical parameters in escape codes to vary in length - this standard meant that every escape code had to contain some character other than a digit, and if it did contain digits, the digits came first. This was the opposite of the previous practice, and it required more processing power; this standard came out when small 8-bit microprocessors started to be used inside terminals.

In the old days, therefore, the tendency was that except in some systems (such as the IBM 3270 terminal environment) every key on the keyboard (except the shift keys) had as its primary function transmitting some ASCII code or code, and it was the ASCII codes that actually 'did something'.

An exotic and expensive kind of terminal, the "block mode" terminal, tried to behave a bit like an IBM 3270, and so the cursor arrow keys didn't send ASCII codes anywhere, but instead were used locally inside the terminal to let you place characters on the screen, and then a "send" key would transmit all the characters in a certain part of the screen (i.e. the field in which the cursor is located, or all entry fields) to the host computer at once.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Mon, 21 June 2010, 03:20:36
OK for the ASCII matter, I was actually aware of most of it :wink:

I still don't understand the shift part in that ctrl-shift comment... :pout:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 05:16:21
Quote from: chimera15;194816
Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it. That's skilled labor you now don't have to pay someone to do.  You essentially make the buyer the workforce.  You also don't have to pay for the solder/soldering iron, or overhead for the factory like a building.

It should be tremendously cheaper, unless you're just running a sweatshop factory.


You're assuming that the soldering isn't done by machine. For the sake of conjecture, if they were machine soldered, the PCBs might be designed in such a way that they're suitable for machine soldering, but not really for human soldering, which would mean that DIY kits would have to be specially assembled.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 06:46:48
Quote from: ch_123;195157
You're assuming that the soldering isn't done by machine. For the sake of conjecture, if they were machine soldered, the PCBs might be designed in such a way that they're suitable for machine soldering, but not really for human soldering, which would mean that DIY kits would have to be specially assembled.

I haven't seen a board like this ever.  Certainly not that uses cherries or alps.  It's not like kb's are motherboards, and even motherboards can be reballed/reflowed by hand and fixed.  Obviously things like chips that might need to be machine soldered would be done by the pcb manufacturer, but big things like caps, and especially the switches can be left off and sold in kit form.  This is especially the case for those of us who want to use alps switches, since good alps switches aren't sold anymore.  Those of us that have true complicated alps will want to use our own from our own collection, not have some junk fake alps soldered into the board that we then have to desolder.

I've heard this may even be the case with blue cherry's, that older blue cherries are stiffer, that some people may like.  So let the user assemble it with the switches they want.  That's a true enthusiast board.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Sat, 26 June 2010, 20:26:33
how about the layout like this
the numbers were canceled.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 26 June 2010, 23:03:49
Quote from: British;195141
I still don't understand the shift part in that ctrl-shift comment... :pout:
I wasn't talking about the shift key. The control key is a key you hold down to make another key do something different. Therefore, Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key are all different kinds of shift; the Shift key is just the first and most basic shift.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: British on Sun, 27 June 2010, 06:36:20
Quote from: quadibloc;196835
I wasn't talking about the shift key. The control key is a key you hold down to make another key do something different. Therefore, Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key are all different kinds of shift; the Shift key is just the first and most basic shift.

Ah yes, now that's better !
I tend to call those "modifiers" :smile:
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 27 June 2010, 13:13:51
This is a USB device, and a physical USB device can be multiple virtual devices, right?
One idea for programming would be to have a special switch or key combination that would unlock a special mode: The keyboard would become a USB "Mass Storage" device with a tiny FAT file system. If there is a file named "layout.txt", then that would describe the layout. Such a virtual device would make programming the keyboard OS-independent. You could have special software for programming the keyboard, but you could also be able to program it using a simple text editor. The keyboard would only keep the files in it's µC's RAM as long as the device is mounted. On unmount, layout.txt is parsed and all files are removed. On mount, "layout.txt" is created from the saved layout in non-volatile memory.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 27 June 2010, 15:21:58
One does not exclude the other. I think that the location of the Fn key should also be programmable, and you should be able to add shortcuts for changing layout if you want to.
Of course, you could do a lot in software on the host, but if you rely on the host's keymap then you may lose some portability. I think that the user should have the choice to be able to program all keys in multiple layers in several selectable keymaps.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Mon, 28 June 2010, 22:23:31
Quote from: Findecanor;196956
This is a USB device, and a physical USB device can be multiple virtual devices, right?
One idea for programming would be to have a special switch or key combination that would unlock a special mode: The keyboard would become a USB "Mass Storage" device with a tiny FAT file system. If there is a file named "layout.txt", then that would describe the layout. Such a virtual device would make programming the keyboard OS-independent. You could have special software for programming the keyboard, but you could also be able to program it using a simple text editor. The keyboard would only keep the files in it's µC's RAM as long as the device is mounted. On unmount, layout.txt is parsed and all files are removed. On mount, "layout.txt" is created from the saved layout in non-volatile memory.


sounds nice.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: kishy on Tue, 29 June 2010, 01:47:09
I've been talking about that kind of feature, but for a different reason, for ages.

Drivers included on USB Mass Storage compatible flash storage built into all USB hardware would be wonderful, especially for obscure stuff not likely to gain driver inclusion with the OS.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 29 June 2010, 02:14:35
Wow, that's the first spammer I've seen on this board, pretty amazing.  At least they're hot. lol  Apple's smoking. lol
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Tue, 29 June 2010, 04:55:51
haahaa  
realy hot.
With my knowledge, as the storage device would be recognized both by OS and the kbd, that would be hard to make it work.
it's a way to make the kbd programmable. Seems the traditional method is easier, but complicated too.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 29 June 2010, 10:21:18
Quote from: imsto;196791
how about the layout like this
the numbers were canceled.

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11391&stc=1&d=1277602070)


Stop using my pics. It has already been discussed here, I can't believe that you're still doing this.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 29 June 2010, 10:22:56
Quote from: imsto;196791
how about the layout like this
the numbers were canceled.

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11391&stc=1&d=1277602070)


I like that layout.  I would stop using lowpoly's pics, though.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: imsto on Mon, 05 July 2010, 12:07:06
Quote from: lowpoly;197561
Stop using my pics. It has already been discussed here, I can't believe that you're still doing this.


Sorry, I would never use it.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: Nadger on Sat, 23 October 2010, 21:04:32
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13140&d=1287885764)

Was bored, took a stab at it.
Title: KBC keyboard needs your advice
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 24 October 2010, 13:37:50
I just remembered that I had painted a mockup that I had never posted, but then it wasn't very special. I had added a column of keys to the right of the Backspace, '\' and Enter column and an made a inverted T-cluster in the bottom right corner. This arrangement has become very common these days, but if someone wants to map those keys to something else than Home/PgUp/PgDn/End, then I think that should be possible.

As this is supposed to be a kit, and the key caps are blank, I think that it could be worth finding out if it would be possible to have additional mounting holes so that the customer could decide on ANSI/ISO/JIS (or some combination), when it comes time to solder it together. Long or short Left Shift, long or short Right Shift, vertical or horizontal Enter key.
There are also other arrangements that I can think of: An unusual JIS layout (found on the PC JX) has a wide Backspace key, just shifted one step to the right from the ISO/ANSI layouts.