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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Maledicted on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:16:55

Title: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:16:55
While searching for images of the inside of an F AT, since I didn't have one handy to take apart, I stumbled upon this downright hilarious blog post. I thought that with Ellipses' keyboards finally making their way out into the wild, this should be an entertaining read for those of you with an interest in capacitive buckling springs:

Model F My ARSE (https://deathshadow.com/blog/20170716_Model+F+My+ARSE/)

You may want to make some popcorn to accompany it.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:26:06
lol, he keeps deleting comments.  best not to give it attention
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: depletedvespene on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:37:11
While searching for images of the inside of an F AT, since I didn't have one handy to take apart, I stumbled upon this downright hilarious blog post. I thought that with Ellipses' keyboards finally making their way out into the wild, this should be an entertaining read for those of you with an interest in capacitive buckling springs:

Model F My ARSE (http://"https://deathshadow.com/blog/20170716_Model+F+My+ARSE/")

You may want to make some popcorn to accompany it.

I wonder if the guy, after yapping on about the impropriety of the "M" layout, will ever remember that the M122 and F122 battleships share the exact same layout (which is why the M122 get their bad wrap).
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: 1391401 on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:39:59
unicomp shill identified
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: depletedvespene on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:46:04
... and, once he's had his first heart attack upon seeing the F122 and M122 side-by-side, he shall be introduced to the F77 keyboard. RIP!
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 22 January 2020, 14:53:52
I wonder if the guy, after yapping on about the impropriety of the "M" layout, will ever remember that the M122 and F122 battleships share the exact same layout (which is why the M122 get their bad wrap).

That's a great point. I didn't think to mention it. Unless he literally is a Unicomp shill, and not just completely ignorant of the facts and thinks that maybe, somewhere, at some point, he probably typed on a Model M once in the 80s, he probably has no idea what those even are.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 22 January 2020, 15:44:26
I suspect that he only considers the F XT to be a true "Model F" and has never taken one apart.

But the comment that really got my attention was:

"When Unicomp can still build the much more mechanically complex and far more desirable Model M"

WTF?   "much more mechanically complex"
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Venaros on Wed, 22 January 2020, 15:59:40
Unicomp trying out some new marketing tactics lol
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: daguil68367 on Wed, 22 January 2020, 18:11:42
Holy **** this is quality satire.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: amperrsand on Wed, 22 January 2020, 20:17:33
Lol, what's that line about the switches being awful on the Model F that makes the Model M more desirable? I'm not debating the quality or build or how long Model F switches last, but isn't the Model F more desired? And that's why the prices are so high (along with them being older or not as abundant)?
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 22 January 2020, 20:27:21
Lol, what's that line about the switches being awful on the Model F that makes the Model M more desirable? I'm not debating the quality or build or how long Model F switches last, but isn't the Model F more desired? And that's why the prices are so high (along with them being older or not as abundant)?

Yes, that's the reality of the market. I, personally, don't even particularly like any of the 3 or 4 Model Ms that I have typed on before. Either this guy has no idea what he's talking about, he's shilling for Unicomp, or is trolling hard. I'm leaning towards the first option myself, but you never really know on the internet.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: chyros on Thu, 23 January 2020, 01:58:29
lol, he keeps deleting comments.  best not to give it attention
Pretty sure by now he knows he ****ed up xD .
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: bananasplit_00 on Thu, 23 January 2020, 03:08:26
Oh wow... The dude says Cherry blacks are surperior... He probably knows very well at this point that he ****ed up really bad  :))

Really fun read at least
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: treeleaf64 on Thu, 23 January 2020, 14:42:49
Haha, enjoyed reading it, especially your angry response :D
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 23 January 2020, 15:08:41
Haha, enjoyed reading it, especially your angry response :D

It wasn't so much angry as it was amused. I'm actually surprised it is still there if he really is deleting comments.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Rob27shred on Thu, 23 January 2020, 15:19:52
Well, that was a good laugh for sure! Model Ms are superior to Model Fs & Cherry MX tops them both according to that dude... Although I wonder, should we report him to someone? Anyone with those views is clearly a danger to society & themselves! :p
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Sup on Thu, 23 January 2020, 18:26:16
Just some angry boomer who still uses the XT layout with wrist pain when he needs to access a function on his modern system.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: jacethesaltsculptor on Sun, 26 January 2020, 14:04:05
In all my life, I never thought I'd see someone defend the XT layout to this degree.

I can use it, but only barely, and it honestly takes function away from the superior M layout. There certainly is a reason why I use an F122 over a Standard XT, the layout is superior in every way, and the soarers converter ensures that I can use it like a more normal modern keyboard, and still have my beloved F switches.

I don't even know where to start with this guy, it reads like Satire, though after reading other things he has written, it seems much more likely that he just takes himself WAYYY too seriously.

Here is his current site, the old one doesn't seem to be used by him at all anymore:
https://cutcodedown.com/

Even reading through his posts there which were all produced at the end of last year, you can tell he has a fair amount of gripes about everything, and few things seem to get him happy enough to compliment them.

unicomp shill identified

Affirm, requesting permission to downvote at 300 meters, sir.

... and, once he's had his first heart attack upon seeing the F122 and M122 side-by-side, he shall be introduced to the F77 keyboard. RIP!

I was certain he had had a heart attack when I saw the dates on his blog, but he's still around, being angry.

Lol, what's that line about the switches being awful on the Model F that makes the Model M more desirable? I'm not debating the quality or build or how long Model F switches last, but isn't the Model F more desired? And that's why the prices are so high (along with them being older or not as abundant)?

Between the two, I've seen Model M's more wanted only for layout and price and compatibility, Model F's for the switches. I certainly belonged to this category until I discovered the Battleship way of life.

Haha, enjoyed reading it, especially your angry response :D

10/10 Angry response, would read again Maledic.  :thumb:

Just some angry boomer who still uses the XT layout with wrist pain when he needs to access a function on his modern system.

Has to be, this is the only possibility. I've never seen someone defend the XT layout that wasn't writing an article from the mid 80's. Notably, he complains, but gives little counter example, so all of this just comes across as very lame complaining.

I can only imagine how less satire-like this would have sounded should he have given supporting reasons to why on earth he thinks that XT keyboard layouts are in any way superior to the later incarnations of the model M, but also the later Model F's, such as the AT.

----------------------

I love Unicomp for what they do, but don't pretend that their quality stacks up to the old IBM's, it just doesn't.
Still, I never thought someone could ever be deep enough in the hole to actually believe that Model F's were inferior to Unicomps, in any way, other then perhaps layout.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 27 January 2020, 07:08:18
Just some angry boomer who still uses the XT layout with wrist pain when he needs to access a function on his modern system.

Has to be, this is the only possibility. I've never seen someone defend the XT layout that wasn't writing an article from the mid 80's. Notably, he complains, but gives little counter example, so all of this just comes across as very lame complaining.

I can only imagine how less satire-like this would have sounded should he have given supporting reasons to why on earth he thinks that XT keyboard layouts are in any way superior to the later incarnations of the model M, but also the later Model F's, such as the AT.

Even back when the F XT was new, it received criticism for its weirdness and the questionable design decisions (abuse of stepped keycaps being the most notorious one). EVEN IN 1980, some stuff in the XT layout was widely considered just plain wrong (the placement of the numpad 0 and the stepping of the ]} key). This is why the F AT layout was lauded as such a massive improvement (even if it had some problems of its own), and why the Enhanced layout wiped the floor with both of them (AND the other competing non-IBM layouts!) later on.

I don't recall a single instance of anyone, not even career-contrarians as that Dvorak git, actually claiming that the Model M's physical layout was a step-down from either predecessor, with the sole exception of lamenting that the F keys had moved from the leftmost position to above the alpha block (but OTOH, TWO MORE F keys? YAY!!!!)
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: nathanchere on Mon, 27 January 2020, 07:52:45
First deliverables just barely starting to trickle out 4 years late and still on the web site "get your orders in before end of month" to get in the "early bird" is enough for me.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: treeleaf64 on Mon, 27 January 2020, 08:32:01
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: chyros on Mon, 27 January 2020, 09:05:44
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.
In a way it's difficult to use an M after you've had an F tbh xD .
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: -Space-NATO- on Mon, 27 January 2020, 09:08:38
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.

Yes, it's not the best layout but it's most than workable. I actually prefer the CTRL where CAPS is, i beleive it's in the perfect place for your pinky. The XT is build like a tank, metal back panel, metal backplate, thick and great keycaps, thick plastic case. Of all the Model F's i got the XT wins by far in feel.
I cant compare the Model F with the model M, if you prefer better layout go with an M but after trying those capacitive buckling springs there's no way back, for me at least.

Dont get me wrong, the M is a beast of a board but i would gladly keep using my model F XT over the Model M. Im restoring an AT right now, maybe that one is the best of the two worlds! IDK.

Have a great week!  :thumb:
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 27 January 2020, 09:28:01
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.
In a way it's difficult to use an M after you've had an F tbh xD .

That is why one goes all in for the F122. :-D
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: chyros on Mon, 27 January 2020, 12:32:00
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.
In a way it's difficult to use an M after you've had an F tbh xD .

That is why one goes all in for the F122. :-D
Such a magnificent board! :D
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: treeleaf64 on Mon, 27 January 2020, 12:36:41
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.
In a way it's difficult to use an M after you've had an F tbh xD .

That is why one goes all in for the F122. :-D
Such a magnificent board! :D

The F122, simply put, is truly magnificent.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: el_murdoque on Mon, 27 January 2020, 13:18:20
Could that be some kind of very intelligent marketing gag?

I mean, the text would be a lot more agreeable if you flipped literally everything he says 180°.
This reads a bit like advanced satire for the keyboard enthusiast.
And who will be the target group for a limited rerun of model F keyboards? My guess would be that they are interesting for a bunch of people knowing that the F's capacitive buckling springs are superior to the M's. And this one guy, who likes the weird layout.
So literally everyone who gets what this text is  about should strongly disagree with those ramblings. And then click on the link.
And think 'Nice. Someone has resurrected that switch and done something quite useful with it by combining the M layout with the F feel'.
And maybe order one.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: jacethesaltsculptor on Mon, 27 January 2020, 20:56:18
I could only wish in the future we'd get something else like the battleship, I know full well it's highly super unlikely and will probably never happen.

But it is absolutely glorious.

But, like midwestern moms have hanging up in their homes on a living room wall:

Don't be sad it went away, be glad that it happened:
[attachimg=1]


Stitched into a piece of cloth of course.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 10:39:50
XT Layout sucks! I think the only people use it is for the switches. No reason to get a Model F XT if you can get a Model M for much cheaper... unless the switches in the F are better.

I agree that people mostly only use it for the switches, but the difference is big enough in my mind that I would rather use an XT layout F than an ANSI Model M, and that's the layout that I prefer otherwise. But I'm not a huge fan of the Model M to begin with.

Could that be some kind of very intelligent marketing gag?

I mean, the text would be a lot more agreeable if you flipped literally everything he says 180°.
This reads a bit like advanced satire for the keyboard enthusiast.
And who will be the target group for a limited rerun of model F keyboards? My guess would be that they are interesting for a bunch of people knowing that the F's capacitive buckling springs are superior to the M's. And this one guy, who likes the weird layout.
So literally everyone who gets what this text is  about should strongly disagree with those ramblings. And then click on the link.
And think 'Nice. Someone has resurrected that switch and done something quite useful with it by combining the M layout with the F feel'.
And maybe order one.

I would say that it is possible, but I would also say that most people that know what he's saying is BS are also not going to go out and choose a Unicomp, besides maybe one of those new SSKs (other than for budgetary reasons).

I could only wish in the future we'd get something else like the battleship, I know full well it's highly super unlikely and will probably never happen.

But it is absolutely glorious.

But, like midwestern moms have hanging up in their homes on a living room wall:

Don't be sad it went away, be glad that it happened:
(Attachment Link)


Stitched into a piece of cloth of course.

I would be content with Ellipse resurrecting the F107, though I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: treeleaf64 on Tue, 28 January 2020, 11:42:35
An F107 would be a wonderful addition. I don't think he has the resources to produce big boards, and there is a bigger market for smaller sized boards, anyway.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 12:28:04
An F107 would be a wonderful addition. I don't think he has the resources to produce big boards, and there is a bigger market for smaller sized boards, anyway.

We need even bigger/heavier zinc slabs though. How else will we test the durability/construction of desks/tables? How else will we bludgeon intruders into another dimension? How else will we anchor hot air balloons? How else will we chock big rig truck tires on steep inclines? What else will we use as sledgehammers (actual sledgehammers?)? What other armor could possibly defeat RPGs?

The F107 is clearly a vital commodity that is in very short supply.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: depletedvespene on Tue, 28 January 2020, 12:38:20
An F107 would be a wonderful addition. I don't think he has the resources to produce big boards, and there is a bigger market for smaller sized boards, anyway.

We need even bigger/heavier zinc slabs though. How else will we test the durability/construction of desks/tables? How else will we bludgeon intruders into another dimension? How else will we anchor hot air balloons? How else will we chock big rig truck tires on steep inclines? What else will we use as sledgehammers (actual sledgehammers?)? What other armor could possibly defeat RPGs?

The F107 is clearly a vital commodity that is in very short supply.

Just as there is a need for BOTH swords and daggers, we need F107 keybards AND TKLs as well.

This, among other reasons, is why Ellipse needs to include the TKL (or, better, the efTKL) form factor in his next round.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: jacethesaltsculptor on Tue, 28 January 2020, 13:27:55
My Body is ready for another F107 production run.

I know full well it's unlikely because TKL and smaller are big right now, but I'm sure that pendulum with swing the other way in time.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 14:28:52
Just as there is a need for BOTH swords and daggers, we need F107 keybards AND TKLs as well.

This, amongst other reasons, is why Ellipse needs to include the TKL (or, better, the efTKL) form factor in his next round.

I love choices, but the closest of the zinc chassis Model Fs to TKL would be the F77, right? Basically the same thing sans F keys (somewhat ironically). Wouldn't a real TKL mean deviating even from IBM's original offerings? What's an efTKL offhand?

I love giant keyboards, I just don't have any giant desks for them, and I never practically use anything other than than the alphanumeric keys and the arrows anyway.
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: depletedvespene on Tue, 28 January 2020, 14:53:03
What's an efTKL offhand?

Imagine a regular TKL, then put the EF1..EF10 key block to its left (just like the F107 and the F122 keyboards).
Title: Re: An ... alternative perspective on the new Model F keyboards.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 15:23:11
What's an efTKL offhand?

Imagine a regular TKL, then put the EF1..EF10 key block to its left (just like the F107 and the F122 keyboards).

Oh, yeah. That would be cool.