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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 01:23:55
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It occured to me, since I never took a typing class that I might be typing completely wrong. For instance I never use the right hand shift, and never use my pinky finger except to shift with. Is this incorrect?
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That poll could use some more granularity, like "occasionally", and that would be what I'd vote.
The few times I use it involve my right hand being busy (mouse or whatever... but not *that*, dirty you) and having to shift on stuff on the right side of the keyboard.
Doesn't happen every day, but happens.
And yeah, I don't really use the caps lock.
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I just mean in normal typing. This poll occurred as a result of a conversation about layouts where someone said the proper way to type was to use the right hand shift key... It never even occurred to me. I always thought the right shift key on a keyboard was useless, or for lefties or something...but then I got to thinking, maybe it's properly used when you capitalize A's Z's and Q's for instance.
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I don't use shift keys, lol! If I do for a rare occasion, it's the left one.
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It depends on which keys we're talking about. I have a tendency to use only my left hand for C and V keys and I think that's because I'm so used to using those as cut and paste shortcut commands.
The other factor is the speed that I'm typing at. Just as I was typing that I usually use the "C and V" keys mostly with my left pinkie, I was typing it fast and I typed it correctly. If I'm taking my time, I'm more likely to get lazy and just use my left hand, but if I'm typing with any speed at all, I guess my original training takes over and I alternate the shift because my fingers recover faster for the next keystroke. It pulls my fingers out of position too much to one hand a shift+key action.
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i use the superfluous shift key
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The problem is that US keyboards have asymmetrical stretches to the shift keys. It's no wonder you learn to use the easymode one all the time instead of typing properly.
The real solution is to extend the right hand shift to where the / key is (so both shift keys are easymode), but that is too drastic a change for most people.
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No - the real solution is NOT to mess up yet another key in the name of US laziness! Everyone else manage to type just fine with the VK_102 key for instance, so this is solely a matter of silly americans.
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I never really thought much about that the right shift is a slightly longer reach. It doesn't bother me at all that it's a slightly longer reach than the left shift.
I've written a number of times about how important it is to learn how to "hover" your fingers and dance up and down rows quickly so you don't get confused the second one of your hands leaves the home row. Once you can hover effectively, I don't think any of the keys will feel like it's too far.
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Hover-crafty.
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I voted yes. Why? Because it's true =P
I use both right and left shifts often, but here is the funny catch...
I use the right shift for things on the left side and some on the right side, and I use the left shift for some things on the right side and some on the left side.
I learned how to touch type properly (supposedly) but over the years I have found it somewhat convenient to get used to this because I find it quicker.
here is a short quick example lets say-
right shift pinky and QAZ...
left shift pinky and }"?...
However when I am going fast I tend to now do something like this-
right shift pinky and }"?...
left shift pinky and QAZ...
Basically whenever possible I keep things on the same hand, which may be the left or right at any given moment.
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Clack, you're actually supposed to alternate the key hand and the shift hand so your wrong way example was actually the right way and vice versa.
Now that I'm paying more attention to how I'm using the shift keys, I find that I'm adjusting often on a case by case basis depending on which key is coming up next.
For example, to type the word Win it's likely to be LSHIFT+W - i -n
but if the word is Wean it's RSHIFT+W - ean
because in the first example, it's an alternating hand example and in the second, the first three letters are all struck with the left hand so it's harder to recover from having your left pinky tied down holding the shift key and reaching for the "w" key.
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Both shifts FTW. I also use Caps Lock for short acronyms, so for "FTW" I used the Caps Lock. Eat that Caps Lock haters: the way it's supposed to be done.
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My main use for right shift is to get question marks... I dont think I use it all that much otherwise.
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Hmm... Thinking about it, I use the right shift more than I thought. Most of the time actually. I'm not left-handed, and my technique is truly awful, but I can type the way I do for hours without a problem, and at a decent rate of speed.
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I never learned how to touch-type properly, but some scheme for typing has stuck in my fingers anyway. I can't remember which finger I use for what: I have to observe myself typing to find out which hand and finger I use for different keys.
I found that I use Right Shift for the keys to the right of the numerical and alphabetic keys, but I still use left shift for the three alphabetic keys with diacritic marks that are special for Swedish.
Otherwise, I use Right Shift and Control in combination with cursor keys and Home/End/PgUp/PgDn.
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Hmm... Thinking about it, I use the right shift more than I thought. Most of the time actually.
It's always really interesting when we have to stop and think about something that's totally automatic to us. I'm sure more than one person had the same experience as I did earlier in saying one thing and realizing as I was typing it that I was doing the other.
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This is really interesting. ;)
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Yes I do use it often.
In fact, I use the right Shift for keys pressed with the left hand, and left Shift for keys pressed with the right hand. It only makes sense.
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How is one supposed to to a capital "A" without the right-hand shift? Without the right-hand shift one must move the left-hand out of the home position, a superfluous move, in my opinion.
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How is one supposed to to a capital "A" without the right-hand shift? Without the right-hand shift one must move the left-hand out of the home position, a superfluous move, in my opinion.
Well, as others have said, my hands float. I move my pinky to the shift and my ring finger to QAZ keys, the same as WSX I suppose it might actually slow me down than if I pressed the right shift. Might be one thing holding me back from the top speeds 160wpm+. I hadn't even thought about it till I posted my layout that was missing the right shift since and it was pointed out by Kishy that he used it all the time.
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Well, as others have said, my hands float. I move my pinky to the shift and my ring finger to was keys. I suppose it might actually slow me down than if I pressed the right shift. Might be one thing holding me back from the top speeds. I hadn't even thought about it till I posted my layout that was missing the right shift since and it was pointed out by Kishy that he used it all the time.
Well, I suppose that the act of touch-typing is not simply a single system; it might actually be more efficient to use a system similar to that which you are mentioning; however I find it is most comfortable to use the right-shift.
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I've actually been considering modding my keyboard to use the left half of the spacebar as a shift key, as my left thumb does absolutely nothing while typing, and I've never liked the placement of the shift keys. Am I alone in this?
I use both shift keys, but I seem to use the left shift for the right hand keys, AND all the keys pressed by my index finger on my left hand.
The right shift is used for my left pinky, ring, and middle fingers.
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No - the real solution is NOT to mess up yet another key in the name of US laziness! Everyone else manage to type just fine with the VK_102 key for instance, so this is solely a matter of silly americans.
The REAL solution is to fix the problems. Put both Shift keys in easy reach and include the ISO/VK102 key.
We don't need huge Shift or Enter keys. We just need them in the right place so we don't need to stretch for them, hence we don't need a big target.
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We don't need huge Shift or Enter keys. We just need them in the right place so we don't need to stretch for them, hence we don't need a big target.
I think that won't work so well in practice because as we're finding out, most of us here drift back and forth between the "proper" method and the one handed method depending on the situation. A small SHIFT key would only be easy to reach under the "proper" method. For example, if I wanted to hit SHIFT-A using a one handed method, it helps to have a bigger shift button so my left hand can drift to a more comfortable reaching position for a one handed press.
In the case of a one handed SHIFT-A, the finger that normally hits A is busy holding down the SHIFT key and you'd use your ring finger so you need to slide over more.
Ugh, and noooooo noooooo nooooo Win key in the corner left bottom position! That's awful. Nightmares! I'll have to ask Julle to find me some really bizarre way to commit suicide with a keyboard if that comes to pass.
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Haha, yes, I suppose you'd need industrial strength springs in the Win key if it was there. Could always have 2 Win keys beside the space bar and one Fn key on the far left, a Mac version would need to be something like that anyway.
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I do. As a SQL jockey, I use _, +, (, ), *, >, and < quite a bit. I use the right Shift to get to all of those characters.
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I learned to touch-type the official and proper way back in high school, which helped me no end in using computers. The idea of not having a right-hand shift key... is unspeakably horrifying to me. What else can I say?
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Not on QWERTY, although I don't use the home row either.
I'm trying to learn proper home row + R-SHIFT usage on COLEMAK.
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I use it all the time to create pipes. For example,
cat numbers.csv | cut -d';' -f2,3 | sort -n
find . -type f | grep -iE -e "*.cpp$" -e "*.h$" | xargs wc -l
It's much easier to use the right shift when piping.
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I use it all the time and it doesn't seem hard to reach.
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There's a right-hand shift key?
I did take, and did very well in, a typing class and they insisted to use right shift for left-hand keys and left shift for right-hand keys, but I never use the right shift, ever.
Oh look, and it's literally the *widest* key on the ABS M1.
.
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That's an interesting place for it, it preserves the t arrow... Is that a new pro hhkb? pro 3? It's an English layout but still has kana printed in English? What is that? Does that shift key position work even for people who use right hand shifts? Wouldn't that be ridiculously far to reach?
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I may use it but I resent the ENORMOUS amount of space it takes up on a typical keyboard - rather have arrow keys.
It seems to me that having the right-shift in the position given in the image (removed) would be poor. The position seems, from sight, to require a lot of movement of the right-hand in order to reach. There is no point in being able to reach the "up" arrow from the home position as it is most likely that the arrow keys are used together, and clearly the other arrow keys are hard to reach.
I would not be averse to having a smaller right-shift key, however one cannot just place it in some horrible position; it is a much more used key than some of the other strangely placed ones on most boards.
On the board in the image it might be better, in my opinion, to have the right-shift and the key to the left of the "up" arrow switched, however this is not great either as "_" is quite well used.
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That's the new hhkb pro jp version... They really went ridiculous with the layout this time. geesh. It doesn't even have kana on it, what are they thinking...the hell.
http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html (http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html)
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? What's the Kana button for then?
Normal Japanese keyboards can be put into a direct kana mode, where you press one button, and it'll produce a single Japanese kana, which is ususally composed of two or 3 western romanji letters. It's funny that almost no Japanese person uses that method though and sticks with romaji input, then uses the kana/henkan key to change the text into kanji/katakana/hiragana.
Apparently pfu has decided to abandon the classic input method where you can do that with a keyboard, since no pro Japanese keyboarder they know will use that method? I don't know. It's still really strange for a Japanese board. Usually the kana key would be in hiragana on a Japanese board as well, not romaji. It's a really wierd board all around, I don't get how they're going to sell that thing, but then maybe it'll do well and it's some new design based on focus groups or something. lol
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Both. When the shifted key is being hit with my left hand, I use the right shift. When the shifted key is being hit with my right hand I use the left shift. For instance, when capitalizing "I" I use the left shift, but when capitalizing A I use the right shift.
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I used to use Right Shift for the Question Mark, but I've since adopted to using left shift for it and now I don't really use right shift for anything other than Shift+Del to bypass the recycle bin. I can type about 80% of full speed with my pinky on the left shift key when I need all caps and have remapped capslock to another left Ctrl key with sharpkeys
Being able to do shift+anything with my left pinky frees up my right hand to more efficiently use arrows, navigation keys and numpad. It might not be right but it works for me.
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That's an interesting place for it, it preserves the t arrow... Is that a new pro hhkb? pro 3? It's an English layout but still has kana printed in English? What is that? Does that shift key position work even for people who use right hand shifts? Wouldn't that be ridiculously far to reach?
The key with the \ _ legend is probably one of the extra keys present on Japanese keyboards, with scan code 73. It could (should?) be remapped to work as another Shift key for use outside Japan. This wouldn't affect your other (non-Japanese) keyboards.
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The key with the \ _ legend is probably one of the extra keys present on Japanese keyboards, with scan code 73. It could (should?) be remapped to work as another Shift key for use outside Japan. This wouldn't affect your other (non-Japanese) keyboards.
huh? It's a backslash \ - key.... Notice the normal -_ key is actually an =_ key. It's completely messed all the heck up.
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huh? It's a backslash \ - key.... Notice the normal -_ key is actually an =_ key. It's completely messed all the heck up.
No. It's a key marked \ _ that sends scan code 073 when pressed. (I believe.)
The layout is much the same as the Japanese layout shown here (http://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/scancodes-6.html).
Based on the scan codes shown there, I think that if you plugged the Japanese HHKB into a computer running a U.S. keyboard layout, the keys would generate this:
So it's not as badly messed up as you might think.
I have no idea how the bottom row works though. But one thing is clear. It has plenty of extra keys over the U.S. HHKB, some already useful (arrows) and others ripe for reprogramming/doing clever AutoHotkey stuff.
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I damn near never use the left shift key. I'm a right-shifter for life. I'm not sure where this habit came from, but I'm guessing it's too many mishaps with a windows key or caps lock over the years, so I've just learned to use my right pinky for shifts and enters. I don't really know what the "right" way is to type, but I do ok, almost 100% touch typing (except when I switch to some bizarre layout board, like the Cherry G84-4400 or something with a small backspace or non-horizontal enter key. Anyway, I use left shift maybe three or four times a year for a macro in photoshop or something...
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There's a right-hand shift key?
I did take, and did very well in, a typing class and they insisted to use right shift for left-hand keys and left shift for right-hand keys, but I never use the right shift, ever.
Oh look, and it's literally the *widest* key on the ABS M1.
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It is the widest key on a Filco (excluding space bar). I used right shift to type Filco.
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Both. When the shifted key is being hit with my left hand, I use the right shift. When the shifted key is being hit with my right hand I use the left shift. For instance, when capitalizing "I" I use the left shift, but when capitalizing A I use the right shift.
This is what I was taught in typing class too.
And Hi everyone, I'm Kathy Marie and brandy-type new. :wave:
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I guess it's time for a welcome then :)
We don't have any fancy welcomes like "...and sorry 'bout your wallet" (Head-Fi style), but I guess that one equally applies here ;)
But on that matter of RShift, that's quite interesting actually. I honestly had to check when I use it, but it seems I do make use of it for a few keys on the very right, mostly non-character stuff (colon, semicolon, apostrophe, asterisk, accents, question mark).
The underscore is interesting, since for typing "RANDOM_CONSTANT" I'd use LShift (which is already in use anyway and keeps the left hand from moving around) but lowercase "some_file.ext" would make use of RShift (with the whole left hand moving over).
Another interesting part is that for some things on the right, like Ä, I make use of LShift while entering the letter with the right hand - makes sense though, as those letters would typically be followed up with others far more towards the left, so the left hand won't have to travel as far.
And yes, I'm a lefty with original IdiosyncraType[tm] technique (almost all left hand, right is mainly for nav keys, numblock and pointing rodent) and German layout. ;)
For regular typing, I tend to use whichever Shift is closest in all-lefty operation, but almost always LShift when I'm also using the right hand (extending to O-K-M or so).
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I found I do never use the right shift ctrl alt, except when I need to press ctrl alt delt
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Ooops I didn't see the "thumb part".
I either use my left pinky for the left shift, or my right middle finger for the right shift. For some odd reason I don't seem to use my right thumb lol.
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I guess it's time for a welcome then :)
We don't have any fancy welcomes like "...and sorry 'bout your wallet" (Head-Fi style), but I guess that one equally applies here ;)
Thanks, Keyb_gr! :smile: About my wallet, I'm hoping to learn to enjoy my keyboards more--many have the AT connectors. There is so much good information here, I'm hoping there may be a way to use them and improve my typing instead of just collecting them.
Or... maybe not? Quote from my husband 2 minutes ago: "OOO, LOOK IT'S A COOL KEYBOARD!!! I already have 6, I need THIS one!!!"
Dang--I resemble that remark!
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Hmm - feel like an alien on this thread: I use the left shift fer all the keys me right hand hits, and the right shift for the keys my left hits, from escape, diagonally down to 'b'.
I think I am out of canon for 6 and ^ which I use me middle left finger for, on account of it being long enough to reach from home-row. Other keys seem to largely be hit by the finger one might expect from someone who had recently taken a touch-typing course. Thing being, I took typing 22 years ago - and I really couldn't care less where my fingers 'should' go. As the years went by, the keys ended up largely migrating to the expected fingers - but I din' start out typing that way. Used to be a long list of exceptions I preferred. I often sit with my keyboard under my monitor so I can't see my hands... thank goodness my M has decent nubs on the f, j.
The only unexpected asymmetry I notice immediately is that I hit the space with my right more often than my left - and I hit it differently - my right thumb normally hits it at an angle, grazing it and relying on momentum to carry the space bar down, while my left hits it solidly and nearly bottoms out.
yup,
dfj
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use the left shift fer all the keys me right hand hits, and the right shift for the keys my left hits
That's the way. QFT.
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I noticed a few more things in how I type. I use it as a modifier for all symbol-keys on the right hand side.
However, I recently noticed that I press down the right Shift key at different places for different keys using different fingers.
For the keys just to the left of Shift, I move my right hand down to the shift key, put my index finger over the symbol - and press both the middle and ring fingers on the left side of the Shift key.
For the symbol keys above it, I press both the ring finger and pinky on the right side of the Shift key.