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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: mercer on Thu, 20 February 2020, 17:33:38
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For anyone interested in a hands-on comparison of the HHKB Hybrid non-silent and the Hybrid Type-S, here's a quick first impression. This week, I received one of each, and I was very surprised with how different they were to each other, and how both were very different from my old Pro 2.
For point of reference, I've used the Pro 2 (non-silent) exclusively for the past three and a half years, one at the office and one at home, both stock except for lubed stabilizers. These were my first Topres, and, until now, have never used a Type-S. Both Pro 2 have been broken in well, actions Topre-smooth, and upstroke clacks like glass marbles. In feel and sound, they are what I imagine to be trademark HHKBs. I'd decided that I wanted a quieter one for the office, so I got the Hybrid Type-S. I also got the regular Hybrid for home, because I couldn't resist the upgraded Bluetooth and USB-C features. So, for the past few days, I've been running typing tests, and putting them through their paces. If anything that follows is faulty or biased, blame it on the disclaimer above.
Comparisons:
- The switch feel is very different from each other. The Type-S is scratchy/airy as I expected, but feels firmer than the super-light regular Hybrid. The Type-S feels like everything is wound so tight that there is very little give between its resting point and bottoming out. On the regular Hybrid, I feel the typical breaking point (actuation), albeit barely. On the Type-S, it's more one-dimensional—either it's up, or it's down, and not much in between. I received the regular Hybrid first, and going from my old Pro 2 to that was a shock. Then, after an hour with the Type-S, going to the new regular Hybrid with the relatively smoother action was like heaven. I guess it depends on where you're coming from.
- Another note on the switches, it feels to me that the tolerance level is higher on the Type-S. Everything just feels tighter and firmer. I even imagine air hissing with each key press. On the regular one, there is considerable play, both vertically and horizontally.
- The thump/thock on the downstrokes on the Type-S sounds and feels more solid and muted. The regular Hybrid has a cheap, hollow sound in comparison. This is especially noticeable on the spacebar. Probably has something to do with the silencer rings and the tighter stem tolerance (if that's even the case), the thump is more focused and substantial than on the regular.
- My overall takeaway is that I like them both for different reasons, and I'm going to wait to see how they improve with more use. The Type-S just feels (even if only imaginary) better-built, and it serves my need for a quieter board for work. The regular Hybrid, although still scratchy and light, feels and sounds much better, more like what I expect Topre to be. I've found no major fault with either, but only time will tell if the regular Hybrid's switches develop the buttery action and the marbley clacks. I think it will, but for now, for me, it's not an example of what an HHKB could/will be. (I don't have hopes that the Type-S will be anything like my old Pro 2. I've heard that the scratchiness gets better, but never quite like a regular one.) To be fair, and despite my very opinionated take above, if you're new to Topre, either board will be a dramatic difference from all other switches.
Other notes:
- The new PBT cases feel sturdier. The white case looks richer and slightly darker than the Pro 2 white. The general build quality on both seems nice, maybe a little better than the Pro 2. No creaks, no visible flaws.
- The switches on the regular Hybrid feel incredibly light compared to the Pro 2. It's possible that I've forgotten how light they are when new, but I was shocked when I first touched it. I've had so many accidental presses from my hand or finger resting on the keys. They also sound and feel scratchy and rough compared to my old Pro 2. Again, I may have forgotten what new HHKBs are like.
- The default/preferred interface must be Bluetooth (4.2LE now, an upgrade from their previous Bluetooth model), as they don't include a cable, but you need a cable to update the firmware (mine already had the current firmware version). Something to note is that if you have an older computer without a USB-C port (like my 2015 MBP at my office), you'll need a USB-C male to USB-A male cord, or some combination of cord and adapter. Good luck with that. Most people are going in the other direction.
- The legends on the white Type-S are just beautiful. Great font, well-placed, and shows nicely on the off-white, textured PBT caps. This is the first time I've actually admired the legends on a board. This is my first HHKB with labels, and I don't regret the change.
- Hate the battery hump. It seems lazy to me that they couldn't engineer the case so that the batteries could be stored inside the case, or use a permanent battery inside that could be replaced as needed. Still, it's very nice to be cord-free.
- This exercise made me realize how unfair it is to try and compare a brand-new HHKB to an old, broken-in one. To me, the difference is night and day.
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Thank you for the comparison! :)
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No time to respond to everything but that's a pointless comparison. You're comparing well-used (like you said, three and a half years) and lubed switches to completely new ones. You're even comparing a 3.5 year old case with a brand new one. Especially with Topre being the design it is, it's obviously going to get more springy with use, and any plastic used in casing will slightly change in color over time.
Besides the fact that the Type-S is silenced, you're getting the exact same switches as any other Topre board. HHKB doesn't make their switches, nor do they get Topre to modify them, so any difference you feel is due to wear.
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Except the case difference means the sound from the HHKB Hybrid will sound and be different than the normal HHKB...That's obvious in very video I've seen so far.
You keep referring to the switch but in this case you probably mean plunger..but those are different as well (at least they are for HHKB and type S) as in they're slightly different to allow for the ring. Now, maybe the new hybrid uses the same plunger which may account for the tighter feel for the Type S and a bit of a looser feel for the regular...I guess when someone breaks them down we will see (I haven't looked that up to see).
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No time to respond to everything but that's a pointless comparison. You're comparing well-used (like you said, three and a half years) and lubed switches to completely new ones. You're even comparing a 3.5 year old case with a brand new one. Especially with Topre being the design it is, it's obviously going to get more springy with use, and any plastic used in casing will slightly change in color over time.
First, the majority of my post is a comparison of the two brand-new Hybrid and Hybrid Type-S. Second, the few comparisons I do make between my old Pro 2 and the new Hybrids are meaningful for those coming from their old Pro 2, which I imagine will be many. If you're new to Topre, then they're irrelevant, but if you're coming from an old Pro 2, the differences can be startling or misleading as it was for me. Third, I didn't say they were lubed, only the stabilizers. The new Hybrids' stabilizers also come lubed from the factory. Finally, the comparison of the old and new cases is notable because HHKB white cases usually get darker over time, but the new cases seem to me to be darker/richer from the beginning. You seem to imply that the old case is lighter because it's older.
Besides the fact that the Type-S is silenced, you're getting the exact same switches as any other Topre board. HHKB doesn't make their switches, nor do they get Topre to modify them, so any difference you feel is due to wear.
Are you sure about that? I thought that the sliders on the Type-S were longer to accommodate the O ring. Regarding my comment about tight tolerances, it's just a feeling, as I said in my post, and I'm wondering if they really are tighter. Regardless, the feeling of tighter tolerances exists, due to whatever reason, at least for me.
You keep referring to the switch but in this case you probably mean plunger..but those are different as well (at least they are for HHKB and type S) as in they're slightly different to allow for the ring. Now, maybe the new hybrid uses the same plunger which may account for the tighter feel for the Type S and a bit of a looser feel for the regular...I guess when someone breaks them down we will see (I haven't looked that up to see).
You're probably right about the plunger. I guess when I use the word switch, I'm referring to any part or all of the switch assembly (slider, O ring, housing, dome, spring).
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Tangential question — are you on macOS by any chance? Old HHKB always had a bad habit of not being able to wake the OS from sleep mode. Do these new ones solve that issue?
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I have the new hybrid also it does feel cheap and rattles a lot might just need to lube the sliders and stabilizers more. But did you notice the top is pbt and bottom feels like abs? or is this just me?
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Tangential question — are you on macOS by any chance? Old HHKB always had a bad habit of not being able to wake the OS from sleep mode. Do these new ones solve that issue?
Yes, I'm on macOS (10.15.3), and yes it seems to work. I connect via Bluetooth, and with dip switch 6 on, it seems to work after one test. (I usually leave that switch off to preserve battery, and just use the trackpad to wake the computer.) On the same computers, my old Pro 2 is finicky. I use a third-party cable, and it used to work fine, but started losing connection after computer goes to sleep, and sometimes even while I'm using it. Re-plugging the cable didn't help. So, I went back to the OEM cable a few days ago, and so far no problem. Not sure if this is the same problem as yours, but you might try a different cable.
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I have the new hybrid also it does feel cheap and rattles a lot might just need to lube the sliders and stabilizers more. But did you notice the top is pbt and bottom feels like abs? or is this just me?
Surprisingly, my stabilizers sound and feel lubed plenty already. To clarify, I don't think that either of the new Hybrids feel cheap, just that the spacebar on the regular Hybrid sounds cheap when it bottoms out—an empty, hollow sound, compared to the muted thump of the Hybrid Type-S. Regarding the case bottom feeling like ABS, I really can't tell. I want to say that it feels to me that the bottom is less textured than the top, but I may just be imagining that.
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You're probably right about the plunger. I guess when I use the word switch, I'm referring to any part or all of the switch assembly (slider, O ring, housing, dome, spring).
Sorry, my post was in response to the one above it..I should've quoted.
The problem w/ comparing Topre "Switches" as far as an HHKB vs. RF...is that while the plunger might be identical..the rubber, spring and pcb...a huge chunk of the "Switch" is the case when it comes to a HHKB vs. the top of the switch mounted to a plate in the case of a RF...
For lack of a better term, the case mounted HHKB sounds and feels different because of that...and the HHKB Hybrid, as a result, would be different (as you've said).
Someone saying they'll be the same because the "switch" is the same (in the case of the other poster) is just wrong..
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You're probably right about the plunger. I guess when I use the word switch, I'm referring to any part or all of the switch assembly (slider, O ring, housing, dome, spring).
Sorry, my post was in response to the one above it..I should've quoted.
The problem w/ comparing Topre "Switches" as far as an HHKB vs. RF...is that while the plunger might be identical..the rubber, spring and pcb...a huge chunk of the "Switch" is the case when it comes to a HHKB vs. the top of the switch mounted to a plate in the case of a RF...
For lack of a better term, the case mounted HHKB sounds and feels different because of that...and the HHKB Hybrid, as a result, would be different (as you've said).
Someone saying they'll be the same because the "switch" is the same (in the case of the other poster) is just wrong..
Agree with it, I've always a main-topre user. I've own few of RF, LP and HHKBs, they all giving different typing experience. and no the HHKB Type-S is not the same with silent topre (which still use black topre with thinner o-ring)
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You're probably right about the plunger. I guess when I use the word switch, I'm referring to any part or all of the switch assembly (slider, O ring, housing, dome, spring).
Sorry, my post was in response to the one above it..I should've quoted.
The problem w/ comparing Topre "Switches" as far as an HHKB vs. RF...is that while the plunger might be identical..the rubber, spring and pcb...a huge chunk of the "Switch" is the case when it comes to a HHKB vs. the top of the switch mounted to a plate in the case of a RF...
For lack of a better term, the case mounted HHKB sounds and feels different because of that...and the HHKB Hybrid, as a result, would be different (as you've said).
Someone saying they'll be the same because the "switch" is the same (in the case of the other poster) is just wrong..
Agree with it, I've always a main-topre user. I've own few of RF, LP and HHKBs, they all giving different typing experience. and no the HHKB Type-S is not the same with silent topre (which still use black topre with thinner o-ring)
That's not true..they use black sliders but they're not the same slider as the stock...people did a tear down of one a long time ago...They're slightly longer (Like the purple silent sliders) than standard...