geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Harry_Y on Mon, 21 June 2010, 14:57:23

Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Harry_Y on Mon, 21 June 2010, 14:57:23: I had read on her where somone mentioned Lubricating Alps Keyswitches
to make them smoother and I thought they said quieter.

I will admit I have never heard of that before.

What do you use to lubracate them with?

Does it gum up over time?

Thank you
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 21 June 2010, 17:40:14: I've wondered the same thing, and read that as an aside a few times here, but I've never seen the topic discussed in detail. I have a Northgate Omnikey that might appreciate a thorough stem cleaning and lube job, *but* I don't dare open ALPS switches without professional supervision.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 21 June 2010, 17:58:50: Exactly the info I'd seen before... in fact I think I made a similar joke. However, that doesn't get to the question I have, which is what is the procedure for doing so? I don't want to over lube them, but I want to be sure I'm doing some good or else why bother taking apart 102 alps switches? Which parts do you actually lubricate? Just the stem (white complicated in my case), the stem AND spring, the whole assembly?
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 21 June 2010, 18:19:05: Yeah I still don't know which parts of the switch get lubed...
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Mon, 21 June 2010, 18:58:07: I have a suspicion it might be lubrcation that made later Alps switches so terrible in the first place.

I bought a new AEKII in the mid-nineties, which became so scratchy that I had to retire it after only one year. The only reason I can imagine is that it collected tons of dust due to lubrication.

I'd rather open one switch, wash all parts and see if that helps. Just greasing the stems will probably make things worse within a few months.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 19:31:24: Quote from: Oqsy;195276
Exactly the info I'd seen before... in fact I think I made a similar joke. However, that doesn't get to the question I have, which is what is the procedure for doing so? I don't want to over lube them, but I want to be sure I'm doing some good or else why bother taking apart 102 alps switches? Which parts do you actually lubricate? Just the stem (white complicated in my case), the stem AND spring, the whole assembly?

lubricate the following, depending on the effect you're going for. Yes go easy on the amount of lubricant.

Teflon spray is best (look for the "dry" spray (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6241&do=comments)). Else try silicon grease. Your best bet actually is to put lubricant on a cloth or tissue and wipe the object to be lubricated. That way only a very minimal amount of lubricant gets on the piece.

Depending on what effect you're going for:

a) lubricate the contact points on the click/tactile leaf. The two points that make contact with the slider. This makes the tactile point lighter, obviously, and adds to making the downstroke a touch quieter.

b) lubricate the vertical side-grooves on the slider. (ie, the narrow left and right sides of the slider). This makes the downstroke a touch smoother and adds to making the downstroke a touch quieter.

Keep in mind the effects are rather subtle, but if you're switch obsessed enough to think about lubricating your switches, chances are you'll notice the difference.

Personally, on the fukka's, I found (a) to make an especially enjoyable difference.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 19:33:23: Quote from: ripster;195301
It's because there is so much room for dirt/dust/grit to get into ALPS.

IBM's kinda have this "self sealing" thing going for them.

Dont worry about ripster. He's got a "theory" about alps. His "theory" is that alps suck. But YMMV. :) I dont think alps are any more prone to dirt than, say, cherries. I dont think in normal usage alps have any intrinsic design flaw in this regard, tho ripster sometimes seems to imply so :) Obviously you dont want to get a flood-damaged alps board :)
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: J888www on Mon, 21 June 2010, 19:58:01: Instruction Link (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4901) for switch opening.
After cleaning, I applied a very thin coat of Dry Lube (for bicycle chains) with brush to the stems. I think there's a slight difference, but my old senses cannot distinguish too well. I also applied it to the cap stems for easier removal and replacing of the key caps.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 20:19:22: What happens over time is that the switch and parts of the switch get worn, and that causes the grit. This is especially the case with complicated alps.

The easiest way I've done it is just to use 3 and 1 oil and just tap the underside of the switch, on the stem, where it'll hit the clicky leaf which rides along the stem and causes the click. This causes the majority of the friction on the switch. Press it once, then wipe off the excess. It's fast and works well. It completely dampens the click, makes it smoother and faster.

I've had some complicated like this for a half year or so, and its still good. There's also the possibility that you will be able to go in and wipe off all the oil if you want to return the switch to spec, which might not be the case with silicone spray or something that might penetrate the switch more.

The important thing to remember is uniformity when you do it. If you put more oil in one switch than another it'll have a different feel which will suck.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 20:21:20: Quote from: ripster;195320
I don't think ALPS suck. Just poorly engineered.

lol, thats like saying rodney dangerfield isnt ugly, just not pretty. say what you mean man!
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 20:22:24: Quote from: chimera15;195322
What happens over time is that the switch and parts of the switch get worn, and that causes the grit. This is especially the case with complicated alps.

The easiest way I've done it is just to use 3 and 1 oil and just tap the underside of the switch, on the stem, where it'll hit the clicky leaf which rides along the stem and causes the click. This causes the majority of the friction on the switch. Press it once, then wipe off the excess. It's fast and works well. It completely dampens the click, makes it smoother and faster.

I've had some complicated lubricated for a half year or so, and its still good.

ya if wear is an issue then lubrication should help rather than hurt. I've had good experiences with a touch of lubricant on alps. easy to overdo it though, just a swipe is enough I think.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 21 June 2010, 20:39:30: 3-in-1 oil isn't "plastic safe" is it? I think that I got some CRC lubricant at Home Depot or Lowes that was.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Mon, 21 June 2010, 20:45:35: I have the CRC Dry Silicone. It's in an acetone base, so I'd be VERY careful around plastics with it if I were you. Once the acetone has flashed the dry silicone is perfectly safe for plastic, but it doesn't take acetone long to damage certain plastics... ALPS sliders don't feel like PBT to me. They feel like a much softer plastic, which would probably melt or at least fissure a bit with acetone contact, which would be exactly the opposite of what you're hoping to achieve. You might be able to get away with spraying a bit of the stuff into a small metal or glass container and allowing the fumes to flash off, and then using a dry brush to apply it to the sides of the slider, but wow that doesn't sound worth the time.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 21 June 2010, 20:53:52: Quote from: Oqsy;195332
I have the CRC Dry Silicone. It's in an acetone base, so I'd be VERY careful around plastics with it if I were you. Once the acetone has flashed the dry silicone is perfectly safe for plastic, but it doesn't take acetone long to damage certain plastics... ALPS sliders don't feel like PBT to me. They feel like a much softer plastic, which would probably melt or at least fissure a bit with acetone contact, which would be exactly the opposite of what you're hoping to achieve. You might be able to get away with spraying a bit of the stuff into a small metal or glass container and allowing the fumes to flash off, and then using a dry brush to apply it to the sides of the slider, but wow that doesn't sound worth the time.

Think mine is CRC 2-26, CRC makes quite a few different products so might be a better choice.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 21:11:59: Quote from: ripster;195330
Somebody buy a 40 gal drum of the "Sperm Oil" stuff and sell it at Geekhack/KBDMania and we can find out if it's as good as they say.

But don't use 3 in One oil. Too many solvents in that stuff and WD40.

I know, I thought the same thing about 3 in1, but I had some really badly worn switches that I tried it on first, and it hasn't degraded the plastic at all that I've seen. It certainly hasn't melted it or anything.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 21 June 2010, 21:18:28: Teflon/PTFE?
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 21 June 2010, 21:33:47: I'm pretty sure it's white lithium grease I found under the left ctrl key on a new realforce 87u.

I agree that the alps design lends itself to getting dirt and dust in them. The best alps boards I have were clean inside. I attribute much of the difference in alps I've tried to how dirty or clean the environment was they came from. I have a northgate 101 that I'm going to try lithium in, unless there is something to this Asian lube you mentioned above.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 21 June 2010, 21:38:01: Quote from: didjamatic;195345
I'm pretty sure it's white lithium grease I found under the left ctrl key on a new realforce 87u.

I agree that the alps design lends itself to getting dirt and dust in them. The best alps boards I have were clean inside. I attribute much of the difference in alps I've tried to how dirty or clean the environment was they came from. I have a northgate 101 that I'm going to try lithium in, unless there is something to this Asian lube you mentioned above.

Lithium grease, as long as it's not too thick, or dry Teflon paste both sound pretty good to me.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 21 June 2010, 21:57:07: Interesting the R0-59 site (http://www.ro59inc.com/productuses.html) lists computer keyboards at the bottom of it's uses.

I just don't want to use anything that has long term affects on any plastics involved, including becoming a dust/dirt/lint magnet. But reducing friction in dusty switches might extend their life rather than shorten it.

White lithium is pretty mild stuff so I think it could do quite well. The fact that Topre puts it on some keys to reduce binding/squeaking is a good indicator it works well.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 22:03:27: I don't think grease or anything that's heavy will work well. I think it has to be relatively light to have a good effect at all, which is why I like 3 in 1, precisely because it is so light. I think a grease will have more of a binding effect and slow the key down.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 22:24:27: One of the problems is that it has to be oil base, or at least not conductive, so it can't be a water based lubricant. Any oil based lubricant is going to potentially have a long term negative effect on plastics, it's just a matter of how much.

One thing I can tell you that doesn't work is graphite. I tried that before I used 3 in 1 and it just made the problem worse if anything. lol

3 in 1 can take a really stiff hard or gritty board and make it almost like blue mx.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 21 June 2010, 22:28:23: Quote from: chimera15;195357
One of the problems is that it has to be oil base, or at least not conductive, so it can't be a water based lubricant. Any oil based lubricant is going to potentially have a long term negative effect on plastics, it's just a matter of how much.
Is dry Teflon conductive? What about this stuff? (http://www.spurlocktools.com/id39.htm)? Probably wouldn't want to inhale it though.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 22:46:37: Quote from: ripster;195358
R0-59 is water based.

Are you saying our Asian friends are crazy?

yeah, cause it if gets in the wrong place it'll short the switch, unless it's made with 100% pure water or something, which is impossible if it's a lubricant.

It's not like we're dealing with a collectible toy that you don't want to damage. The cases and plungers can be replaced for under $20, it's the metal parts that are the valuable parts with blues and whites. Just buy an at101w, and replace all the leafs if they do eventually degrade, which from my experiments won't happen for at least 6 months, and probably a lot longer if ever. Switches are meant to be replaceable and used.

This is even less important with fakes.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 21 June 2010, 22:53:53: Quote from: ripster;195335
Acetone.

Plastics.

Don't Mix.
Show Image
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1099/4723337188_1a57dbf9a4.jpg)

Found an interesting site (http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcomp.asp) that allows you to look up chemical compatibility such as ABS plastic and acetone.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: spolia optima on Tue, 22 June 2010, 00:06:43: i have had good experiences lubricating the tactile leaf on comp. black ALPS switches. i recommend a tiny paintbrush for the most uniform coating. all you need is a little bit.

greasing the stem has little effect, and it's easy to go overboard. put too much on the stem and you increase friction significantly.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Harry_Y on Tue, 22 June 2010, 07:40:51: Quite a lot of info here, thank you!
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 22 June 2010, 08:20:06: Because of the design of the leaf/slider, it's a smooth surface against another smooth surface,even if something gets in it, it will grind up or wear smooth and be a non-issue. I think the issue is more about dust/dirt/stuff getting in the channels where the slider moves, resulting in binding and the switch feeling less than smooth.

A thin lubricant may work better initially, but it's going to migrate throughout the internals of the switch and may gum things up over time. This is why I thought white lithium might work well, because it's used in places where you want it to stay put.

On my 87u, it had white lithium on the left Ctrl which didn't have a stabilizer. It was a slightly more wobbly key than others on the same board, so I think the lithium grease was there to reduce binding.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Fri, 25 June 2010, 22:36:34: Ok, someone explain to me which would be better and why... conductive or non-conductive lubricant?

I can see benefits and drawbacks to either depending on the nature of the switch mechanism and whether the circuit is normally closed or normally open... I'm assuming that ALL mechanical boards are normally open, and close on keystroke.

That being the case, I can see conductive being problematic if used too liberally since it would close the circuit causing unintended keystroke signals. However, non-conductive lubricant used too liberally would prevent the circuit from closing by having a layer of isolating lubricant between the surfaces of the switch mechanism that should be making direct contact to close the circuit.

Assuming the above is correct, wouldn't it really just be OVER lubricating the mechanisms that would be the problem, and not necessarily the conductive nature of the lubricant?
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 26 June 2010, 15:04:12: Quote from: Oqsy;196550
Ok, someone explain to me which would be better and why... conductive or non-conductive lubricant?

Well, my wife likes conductive lubricant, because she sees sparks with every stroke. I prefer non conductive, because I see sparks regardless, and static electricity can be a bummer.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Sat, 26 June 2010, 15:11:20: [Golfclap] well done... oh yes, well done! [/Golfclap]
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: kishy on Sat, 26 June 2010, 15:42:59: Quote from: Oqsy;196713
well done... oh yes, well done!

And that would be what she says, I presume.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Sat, 04 December 2010, 14:45:48: Ok, I'm surely going to get hammered for admitting this here, but I was sick and tired of neglecting my Omnikey, and I decided I was going to lubricate it and get it pleasant to type on, or put it away for good. My results after 3 days are outstanding, but there's no long term data to offer yet, so don't replicate this method unless you're willing to deal with a gummed up ALPS board down the road in the event that it doesn't work long term.

Here is my method:

1. Disassemble all switches, separate the plastic parts from the metal.

2. Set aside the metal parts for now, we'll deal with them later.

3. Take your key caps (if dirty) and plastic sliders and clean them thoroughly by whatever method you prefer. I like warm water with Dawn.

4. Set them aside to dry.

5. Take the click-leaves and clean them by whatever method you prefer, again I like warm water and Dawn. Wipe them dry and set aside.

6. Take all of your plastic sliders (and key caps or whatever other plastic you may want to "re-condition") and soak them in a container with 1 part water, 3 parts 303 Aerospace Protectant. One hour soak is probably enough, but I left mine overnight. I do not pretend to know the chemistry behind 303, but it really does seem to "re-condition" the plastic back to a less brittle state. It also has a UV protectant which will help prevent yellowing (very useful after retr0brite!).

7. Remove the plastic from the 303 bath, and WITHOUT RINSING, wipe all plastic dry, allow further air-drying if necessary.

8. Spray a generous amount of *WD-40* into a small disposable cup or bowl and grab a handful of Q-tips.

9. While the plastic sliders are drying, take a Q-tip, dip it into WD-40, and lightly brush each click leaf with it. The trick here is to be sparing, and only brush on enough to make the leaf appear "damp". If drops form, you're using WAY too much. DO NOT SPRAY DIRECTLY ONTO THE SLIDER! DO NOT APPLY EXCESS AMOUNTS OF WD-40!

10. Once all the click-leaves have been GENTLY lubricated, and your sliders and key caps are dry, it it time to reassemble!

I do NOT take any responsibility for any damage to your keyboard, switches, or yourself by using this method, I'm simply posting what worked for me. As I stated above, there is a distinct possibility that this method will fail after extended exposure to the WD-40 lubricant. This method may or may not benefit from the use of Teflon, Lithium, 3-in-1, CRC Silicone, butter, or vaseline in the place of the WD-40, but this is the method I chose to test first.

*IF* I experience any problems down the road I will update this thread, and try again with a different lubricant.

Do not attempt this if you are not willing to disassemble and reassemble ALPS switches, and thoroughly clean them if it becomes apparent that WD-40 is detrimental or inferior for long term use.

303 Aerospace is 100% safe to use on the plastic sliders, key caps, case, or any other plastic or rubber you want to treat. It leaves a *very* thin film (which contains the "sun block" that is quite slick, and would most likely work by itself without the use of additional lubrication, if anyone wants to try that method.
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Sat, 04 December 2010, 15:31:51: I'm hoping that the cleaned and 303'd sliders won't be harmed by the WD-40, but it's just a waiting game right now. I chose that over other lubricants, including CRC Silicone because of it's popularity and availability. I suppose it's kind of moot when paired with 303, which is pretty much mail order only unless you live near somewhere that restores boats or convertible tops :D
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: Oqsy on Fri, 10 December 2010, 19:31:11: Quick update: The board is still working BEAUTIFULLY. Also worth noting, I used the same technique for lubricating a Cherry ML board, except I substituted CRC Silicone for the WD-40, and it worked quite nicely as well. One caveat, the CRC Silicone ate the bottom out of the small plastic cup I had sprayed it in, so any stuff about "all the solvents in WD-40" pales in comparison to the acetone base of the CRC Silicone spray.

I used a glass container to hold the CRC since plastic is eaten up immediately, whereas the WD-40 had no effect on an identical plastic cup in the time frame it was filled.

YMMV, but please note:
*THERE ARE PROVEN PLASTIC-DAMAGING EFFECTS OF CRC SILICONE SPRAY! USE WITH CAUTION!*

In other words, don't soak your keyboard in acetone!
Title: Lubricating Alps?
Post by: sairex on Fri, 10 December 2010, 20:06:03: 303 Aerospace protectant is readily available from car detailer websites. For example. (http://www.detailersdomain.com/search.aspx?find=303+aerospace)