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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: 002 on Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:18:32
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I noticed that some of the keys on my 87U just don't look right.
The keys aren't perfectly straight like the rest of the board. Any of you guys with Topre boards have the same issue?
I've tried switching the offending keys with properly aligned keys but it didn't fix the problem.
'M' key leaning to the left.
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/fr3dsk1/IMG_6877.jpg)
'[' and ']' keys leaning into each other.
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/fr3dsk1/IMG_6876.jpg)
Zoomed out view - 'I', 'M' '[' and ']' keys have the problem.
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/fr3dsk1/IMG_6878.jpg)
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crap board. give it to me
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wow? What's up with that. lol It looks like a sales report line chart. lol
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Well, you aren't being hypercritical, I can see it clearly and it would probably annoy me IRL.
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I thought your N key was horribly deformed (look at the left edge), but it's just the angle it was shot from. But I suspect it is rotated clockwise slightly, and that is making the M look even worse than it is (rotated anticlockwise.)
Mine aren't like that, but if they were the grey-on-black colour scheme would probably do a good job of hiding it.
Your test suggests the problem lies with the baseplate rather than the caps. How does it look without the caps on?
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It's fack'd.
Ask for a refund :P.
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@Rajagra
I took the top row of keys off and to me they all look like they line up correctly, but it's the plungers that look suspect.
Another thing I'd like to know is what the notch at the top of the plunger means and which way it's supposed to face.
In the case of my board, the notch either faces in the top right direction of the bottom left direction - is this normal.
here is the order:
Notch facing North-east - QWERUIP[
Notch facing South-west - TYO]
Time to e-mail leopold I think
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That's definitely a manufacturing defect, on a board like the 87u they should fix that.
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Another thing I'd like to know is what the notch at the top of the plunger means and which way it's supposed to face.
In the case of my board, the notch either faces in the top right direction of the bottom left direction - is this normal.
I think that's just a locking tab that keeps the two parts together during assembly. It should be OK in any of those two directions, but not if it points NW or SE. I popped off the O & P keys on mine, they both pointed SW.
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Theres a joke in there about British teeth I'm sure.
Anyway, that would not be acceptable to me. I would likely return it. Good luck!
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That's unacceptable. I second (third, fourth, whatever) a return.
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figures ripster would defend the topre defects but rail against scorpius and adesso defects ;-D At least the latter cost a fraction of the topre.
If you paid $60 for it, i'd live with it; if you paid a $100 or $300, send it back.
Its nice to see the top flight boards suffer so many of the same defects (in firmware and hardware/manufacturing) as the lower priced boards. Just goes to prove what i've always said, the industry doesnt give a **** so you may as well save some cash and get the cheaper ones.
And I'll add once more, also, that its great to buy expensive keyboards but from folks who have return policies.
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The Y key on my HHKB is a little off. I would have never noticed if the topic hadn't come up.
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Don't worry, I already have an e-mail out to Majestouch about it. It's unacceptable.
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Will do.
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Welly is the expert at Returns. Just look at his Sig.
actually i'm an expert at giving keyboards away to geekhackers (you know how many of my former boards are currently serving geekhackers? A lot :)
I'm also an expert on selling some of them on GH marketplace. But whatever.
You on the other hand are an expert at telling consumers to stuff it :) if the defect involves your favorite reseller :)
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I wonder if some of the Topre smothness comes from sloppy guides/slider tolerances that eliminate binding. Engineers will do this on purpose sometimes. Think of a Colt 1911 that will work if you dunk it in mud.
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Yeah, that looks pretty tight at least in this photo.
That white 87u is horrible, you should sell it for like fifty bucks to some sucker like me.
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On my HHKB, the Y key's mechanism is what is crooked, so it's certainly not the keycaps (at least in my case). Without breaking out a microscope, it's hard to tell exactly which part of the mechanism is crooked.
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Hey, mine is straighter than Snaggle-tooth's up there with the metal plate. I don't see any crooked keys on my numpad, though, but there is less chance for error on that one.
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There's a 1.8° difference between the [] keys, or 0.9° error per key. The design is capable of ensuring better accuracy than that, but only if manufacturing tolerances are kept tight. The most likely bad component is the sliding part. Maybe there was a bad batch. Or perhaps more likely - maybe they mixed up components from different batches? If every key was rotated 0.9° clockwise you wouldn't see a problem. But if you mix up sliders from two batches that differ in positioning, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
It's not exactly faulty, but can be classed as a 'second'.
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The plastic slider assembly is mounted into a metal plate. As I've said before we are talking .01" tolerances when you punch that plate.
So the HHKB is very different to the Realforce in that respect? Which board is this?:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4178&d=1251682226)(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4177&d=1251682213)
That one seems to have a one-piece, moulded mounting assembly, which should guarantee good alignment.
EDIT> Popped some caps. The HHKB is the one with the moulded assembly.
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So you COULD pop the slider, file a bit, and remount. Or return to Leopold. Or take Welly's advice and complain to Elitekeyboards even though they have nothing to do with this issue.
lol, nah they're just the point of sale. Everyone knows the point of sale has nothing whatsoever to do with the sale!
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If all you're going to do is hang around Geekhack to troll Elitekeyboards you should really just create a "EliteKeyboardsSux" facebook page (lmnop would friend you!) or something because it gets old.
really rippy, is that all i do here?
what gets old is you jumping in to defend EK every chance you get.
The OP bought the Realforce 87U keyboard from Leopold. (http://www.leopold.co.kr/)
I never mentioned EK, by the way, when I responded to the OP; for some reason you did though. For some reason you assumed I told the OP to return it to EK. I did not. Check my threads above. So stop projecting that onto me. I merely told the OP that at at some pricepoint it might be worth pursuing (with WHOMEVER they bought it from) and that return policies are useful in precisely such situations.
If anyone is obsessed with EK on this forum, rippy, its you. I said my piece about EK long ago and thats ancient history to me. What I got out of it is standard advice to any consumer about how to be careful. That advice applies to ANY seller we may come across.
Welly is the expert at Returns. Just look at his Sig.
And surely you dont expect uncalled-for barbs like the above to go by without a response? Was I the only one who recommended they consider returning it? Why do you pretend like I was? I didnt even say return it, I said to consider it.
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I did buy the keyboard from Leopold - EK didn't have the white board.
It was Brian who actually suggested that I ask Leopold when I asked him about a white board.
EK have been helpful to me in the past (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=166283#post166283) so let's see if Leopold can match the service that EK showed me.
The language barrier will likely be a hurdle but I'll let you all know how it goes.
I would certainly hate to think that my little thread has deteriorated relationships between members here.
<3
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I would certainly hate to think that my little thread has deteriorated relationships between members here.
<3
lol, not to worry, we've been going at it forever ;)
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And lets get something right - its not EK I'm criticizing here, its ripster i'm criticizing. Dont deflect that to EK, rippy. ;)
Its like, we cant even talk about good deals on other keyboards cuz ripster gets afraid that we might channel business away from his favorite sellers or his favorite boards. I love the way you came down so hard on the mere mention of bing discounts. I mean wow, are you even on the consumers side any more?
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Don't think it was the sliders.
The plastic slider assembly is mounted into a metal plate. As I've said before we are talking .01" tolerances when you punch that plate.
I'm kinda curious as to why you think that a HUNDREDTH of an inch ZOMFG!!!1!! is something that excuses them somehow. I can hand-file pieces to a hundredth of an inch. Machining or punching pieces to a thousandth (0.001") of an inch has been trivially simple for decades.
That they can't be bothered to spec their tolerances that closely, or to QC the products before boxing them up just shows that they just don't give a ****- not that there's some mystical barrier at .01"!!!1!!eveventy!! that can't possibly be broken by modern- or even early twentieth-century- manufacturing techniques.
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ZOMFG!!!1!! your text is sure lavender.
Kinda ugly with the light theme. Makes me question your manhood with the dark theme.
And ad hominem attacks have exactly what to do with manufacturing tolerances?
Just, you know, curious...
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What do hominy grits have to do with manufacturing tolerances?
That they're significantly larger than .01"?
Which is still a pretty piss-poor manufacturing tolerance?
That they're completely irrelevant, except as a red herring to distract attention from the fact that not being able to manufacture or QC products to a spec of 0.01" is either an indication of extreme incompetence or plain cheapness- or possibly a combination of both?
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.01" is about 1/2 the diameter of this.
.2mm lead and pencils are made without a problem.
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.2mm lead and pencils are made without a problem.
You know, they have an unfair advantage, this is a picture of the pencil lead factory, you cannot compete with work done with the eensy weensy fingers of these specialists:
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/kate102518/OompaLoompas1971.jpg)
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oompa loompa fingers are short, but they're also stubby and thick, which makes them less than ideal for jobs that require dexterity. oompa loompas are also involved in unions with strong communist party ties and use mafia-style intimidation to keep the munchkins from crossing the picket lines any time there's a labor dispute at the pencil factory. Poor munchkins just want to make a living...
(http://derbyimages.woot.com/Beefcoat/Oompa_Loompa_Vs._Munchkin-jwjd1l-d.jpg)
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:argue: + :fencing:
= :nono: + :crazy:
:peace: + :love: + :hug:
= :thumb:
:amen:
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I'm just going to ignore the fact that this thread has turned into a discussion about oompa loompas and trunk monkeys (both interesting topics in their own rights) and post the reply I got from Leopold:
"Hi.
This is engineer of Leopold.
I saw the picture that you linked for me.
The Keycap of Keyboard made by Topre Co., Ltd in Japan is twisted a little due to structural reason.
So it is not defect.
You can not see the Korean but we noticed about this issue on our web site.
Thank you."
So I guess I'll have to ignore the twisty keys. I'll get you next time Captain Planet! *shakes fist*
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OMG WTF??!?!?!?!?!one!!!!111@!!!!one!
they SAID its due to a structural reason. they ADMIT it.
tards.
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Wow. Twisted keys are a $300 'feature', apparently. That sounds like a page from steve jobs (http://gizmodo.com/5573177/apple-do-the-right-thing-and-give-away-the-iphone-bumpers).
1. hold your iphone differently to avoid the reception problem.
2. there is no iphone reception problem.
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Anyways, the missus is Japanese so I'm going to get her to translate his reply and we'll see what Topre has to say about it.
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Leopold is not Topre...spinning it that way is not sincere by any stretch.
002, the cylindrical structure of the Topre keycap mounting does lend itself to some twisting, some keys more than others, and when twisted some will stay there until twisted back. On the average, they mostly float around the middle of their movement boundaries and the lines aren't so aesthetically disconcerting, however, this is something I've mentioned to Topre before as a concern, particularly with keys like Shift, which are often hit off center resulting in a normally twisted position.
From your photos I'd say some of your key twisting is beyond acceptable and the board or keycaps are defective and should be replaced, HOWEVER, the barrel distortion of your camera lens does add some exaggeration, and I won't discount the possibility that you've manually twisted some keys to an extreme, those of which you've noticed are more inclined to twist, for better illustration of your point to Leopold or members of this forum (may the gang mentality rain down upon me for being honest about the reality of human intentions).
That all said, I believe there is room for improvement in Topre's design and I don't like Leopold's answer to you, so I'll take your photos and make an inquiry to Topre, and let you know what I hear back.
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so I'll take your photos and make an inquiry to Topre, and let you know what I hear back.
Thank-you.
I'd be interested to hear what they say about it. If they confirm that the defects are normal then I'll be on my merry way.
Regarding purposely twisting the keys to provide dramatic effect - I did adjust some of the keys pictured to make the problem more apparent, however, I'd like to say that I didn't twist each key individually to find the problematic keys in the first place. I saw them.
This might come as a surprise to you all but I'm also not a very good photographer. I can assure you that any effects that my camera and I have achieved to make the problem look worse than it is were accidental. I can take some more pictures if someone has some suggestions on how to get the most accurate representation of what the keyboard looks like in real life.