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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:19:14

Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:19:14
As you may or may not know I'm also into power supplies. You know, for PCs. I know which ones are good, which ones are bad, what differentiates a good power supply from a bad in terms of build quality and performance, I know a good many of the OEMs and platforms and who builds what and even a bit about the more common topographies.

You know, normal kid stuff.


Anyway, I recently decided to pick up a cheap-o power supply to compare/contrast with a high end power supply. I have an Antec EA430 PSU sitting around, so I decided to get a garbage 430W power supply. Namely, the Linkworld LBJ2 430W:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817165023&cm_re=linkworld_430w-_-17-165-023-_-Product


I'll be posting my review of this ****fest example of cost cutting and lying soon. But as a teaser:

The primary rectifiers for 115V input are two IN5406 rated at 3A. There are two other diodes for 230V input that I can't ID, but are presumably rated at 1.5A. For 115V (US/Canada) input, we get 3A*115V = 345W. Assuming 80% efficiency (which is VERY generous) this PSU can only deliver 276W before these diodes burn. With a more realistic assumption of 70% efficiency, this PSU could only deliver 241.5W before these parts go up in flame.

This doesn't bode well for this PSU's odds of being able to deliver its rated wattage of 430W.




More when I upload pics and analyze the primary and secondary transistors.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:34:08
Ummm.... No offense, but starting out your calculations with "presumably" pretty much trashes your hatchet-jo... err... review.  Myself, when I read a paper that uses the the word "assume" or any synonym, I mentally multiply or divide the conclusion based thereupon by a factor of ten.  It has been, in my experience, much more accurate than the reported numbers.

Not that I doubt that this is a crappy PSU- but support it, don't just pull **** out of your ass.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:38:01
Never did. My calculations were based on the 115V diodes. I presume the 230V diodes are rated a 1.5A, because that's what these companies usually do. But I never did any math or pulled any conclusions from the 230V diodes, only the 115V, which I know, concretely, are 3A.

When I present something as fact, I know it to be fact as far as is possible to check it. When I'm fairly certain, I'll mention it but won't try to do math based on it. When I really don't know, but am guessing, I'll preface it in a way you know I'm not sure.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:43:36
Nice editing...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:44:25
Unless you're doing it for your personal enjoyment, generic power supplies have been proven to suck before.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:45:33
Quote from: Nonmouse;196567
Nice editing...


Don't get nasty mate. I changed so it was more clear, to address your objection.

Quote from: gr1m;196569
Unless you're doing it for your personal enjoyment, generic power supplies have been proven to suck before.


My personal enjoyment, and also to show some idiots at OCN. Plus a few other reasons.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:52:42
The biggest difference between a quality and generic PSU is their weight. My Corsair VX550 is as heavy as a Fatman from Fallout 3. A generic PSU pulled from an HP computer that I have lying around is about as light as the cloth bag Corsair packages their PSUs with.

/OT
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:56:37
Quote from: gr1m;196573
The biggest difference between a quality and generic PSU is their weight. My Corsair VX550 is as heavy as a Fatman from Fallout 3. A generic PSU pulled from an HP computer that I have lying around is about as light as the cloth bag Corsair packages their PSUs with.

/OT

Often true, but not always. Makalu (another PSU geek, only with a $5000 testing lab the lucky bastard) opened up a generic and found a bunch of iron weights, to increase the weight.

But yeah, generic PSUs (made by Linkworld, Leadman, Sun Pro, etc.) often cut out nearly a third of the components, and use lightweight heatsinks and small coils and all that, so they end up a lot lighter.

However, once you hit the high end weight's no good, since some of the best power supplies can be relatively light.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:59:31
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;196570
Don't get nasty mate. I changed so it was more clear, to address your objection.



My personal enjoyment, and also to show some idiots at OCN. Plus a few other reasons.

Like I said, I don't doubt it's a **** PSU, but base it on numbers or  empirical evidence.  Find the actual draw on the unit or/and blow the mother-****er up, or find out the actual rating on the components (the former  being, obviously, preferable to the latter), but don't post stuff with "presumably", unless you expect to get responses like mine- or much worse.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:02:03
Quote from: Nonmouse;196575
but don't post stuff with "presumably", unless you expect to get responses like mine- or much worse.


Na, you've got it covered in the "**** comment" compartment.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:09:59
Obama wants us to eat da poo-poo???? To lick da anoos!????
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:10:28
Quote from: Nonmouse;196575
Like I said, I don't doubt it's a **** PSU, but base it on numbers or  empirical evidence.  Find the actual draw on the unit or/and blow the mother-****er up, or find out the actual rating on the components (the former  being, obviously, preferable to the latter), but don't post stuff with "presumably", unless you expect to get responses like mine- or much worse.


What do you think I'm doing? I ID'd the 115V diode, looked up its data sheet, found the amperage rating, did the math.

And testing power supplies isn't simple. A full testing suite costs a minimum of ~$4000, if I go cheap and improvise. JG's lab costs ~$8k, and [H]'s cost around ~$10k.

Want more hard info? Here's the secondary silicon

SBL2045CT = 20A @ +5V = 100W
F12C20C = 12A @ +12V = 144W
S10C40C = 10A @ +3.3V = 33W

Leading to a total secondary wattage of 277W. Which matches up with what I found for the primary as well (though I have yet to analyze the primary switchers; shall I do it now?).
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:17:09
I'm actually very interested in your research on these PSUs. This is a new area for me, so, I'm ecstatic about any info I can get my hands on: especially if it's conveniently in geekhack.

I got some old certified data computer, and the power supply was made by "avance technologies", it's a strange PSU which actually shoots out a hefty amount of air compared to other PSUs I have; know anything about them?

An interesting thing is the delta ones in my intellistations don't automatically turn the computer on when plugged in; whereas, in the thinkcentres, soon as you plug the stupid things in, it causes the computer to boot. I'm assuming it's a PSU issue, but it could be the computer itself.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:20:22
Yeah yeah, but feeding trolls is like feeding guppies, I just feel guilty if I don't give them something. :p

The primary switchers are regrettably (or thankfully?) overrated, 16A pulse mode, though I'm not sure of the voltage they'll be running at. Nor do I know what temperature they were rated at. So I can't draw too much from it, except to say that they probably aren't quite as bad as the primary rectifiers and secondary silicon.



Anyway, IBM, I don't know about "Advance Technologies". However, it probably uses a high-end fan; Delta, Sanyo Denki, NMB, etc. That would explain the higher airflow. I don't know what PSUs they use in Thinkcenters either, but it may be done that way by design.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:26:41
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;196585

Anyway, IBM, I don't know about "Advance Technologies". However, it probably uses a high-end fan; Delta, Sanyo Denki, NMB, etc. That would explain the higher airflow. I don't know what PSUs they use in Thinkcenters either, but it may be done that way by design.


Actually it's "avance" not "advanced" (don't ask me why, I think it should be advanced, avance isn't even a word).
The fan is "jamicon", I never heard of them before. Probably some obscure defunct company lol.

Well the thinkcentres and intellistations both use delta PSUs, but they both behave differently, so, I'm guessing IBM told delta to cheapen the thinkcentres.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:27:42
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;196579
What do you think I'm doing? I ID'd the 115V diode, looked up its data sheet, found the amperage rating, did the math.

And testing power supplies isn't simple. A full testing suite costs a minimum of ~$4000, if I go cheap and improvise. JG's lab costs ~$8k, and [H]'s cost around ~$10k.

Want more hard info? Here's the secondary silicon

SBL2045CT = 20A @ +5V = 100W
F12C20C = 12A @ +12V = 144W
S10C40C = 10A @ +3.3V = 33W

Leading to a total secondary wattage of 277W. Which matches up with what I found for the primary as well (though I have yet to analyze the primary switchers; shall I do it now?).

Really, I don't mean to be too agro- more pointing out that posting numbers before you can back them up is just going to lead to people getting all up up your back.  Assuming is always a bad way to start- what does it do to your numbers if those diodes happen to have 2, 4 or 10 times higher ratings?  Can you be sure you can tell the difference by eye?
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:31:05
Quote from: Nonmouse;196589
Really, I don't mean to be too agro- more pointing out that posting numbers before you can back them up is just going to lead to people getting all up up your back.  Assuming is always a bad way to start- what does it do to your numbers if those diodes happen to have 2, 4 or 10 times higher ratings?  Can you be sure you can tell the difference by eye?


I'm perplexed. Just wait until the tests on the PSUs can be done instead of making it trivial. Obviously the information will be corrected as the test progresses, phaedrus was just proposing an hypothesis based on the current information gathered.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:35:33
Actually this unit was already tested. Or rather the "500W" version. I was hoping I'd have a virgin, untested platform on my hands, but Gabriel Torres already got his hands on this one. And it does indeed go up in flames (figuratively) around 265W, and the component ratings are all the same (though a few in the 500W version couldn't be identified). The only major difference was the 230V rectifiers were the same 3A diodes as the 115V. On mine the 230V diodes are half the size, which is why I believe they are 1.5A. They cut the current in half and manage the same effective rating at 230V, and save $0.025 in the process.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:40:11
Quote from: EverythingIBM;196590
I'm perplexed. Just wait until the tests on the PSUs can be done instead of making it trivial. Obviously the information will be corrected as the test progresses, phaedrus was just proposing an hypothesis based on the current information gathered.


No, he was posting numbers.  One doesn't (or shouldn't, at least) present results based on assumptions.  A hypothesis would be worded quite differently.  Say- "If the diodes were 1.5A, the unit should produce about 277 watts.  However, as we were unable to verify this diode amperage at this time, we cannot rate the actual output of the unit.  When we are able to either rate the diodes or the actual failure output of the PSU, we will publish accurate wattage numbers."
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:52:04
Read the post, I did rate the diodes, at least for the 115V. And that's what I did my math on. Unless the manufacturer is lying (very unlikely; that crap isn't tolerated in manufacturing circles) then the 115V diodes are rated for 3A, which means they can do 345W, which means between 240W and 280W after losses. Above 3A the diode will behave erratically, and will usually maintain that erratic behavior even at "safe" levels again, and a bit higher it will burn.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Sat, 26 June 2010, 00:56:28
Quote from: ripster;196571
I think lavender text is kinda gay.

Nope- so sorry to disappoint you.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Oqsy on Sat, 26 June 2010, 02:12:29
Did someone page me to this thread?  I HEART COMIC SANS AND ITALICS AND LAVENDER!1!11!  I sure could use a mansicle right now...  Ta ta boys!
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Sat, 26 June 2010, 02:40:13
*facepalm*

Even if he did present assumptions as results or facts, it's the internet...

This whole 'exact science' idea of testing power supplies bugs me anyway, just get a ballpark load figure for when it blows up and don't run it near the limit. Good enough for me.

Anyone happen to know what's up with the newer Thermaltake TR2 430W units? All I can find is info on older versions of the same model that claim different specifications from each other.

I know it's a discount unit but I'd kind of like to know what to expect from it.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 26 June 2010, 03:12:07
PSUs are a bit like amplifiers. Anybody can build one, but not all can make them sound great. The difference though is that it is not always apparent that a bad PSU is the cause of problems.

If anyone is pulling numbers out of their ass it is the manufacturers of cheap PSUs. Not only do they make claims that are literally impossible to reach with the rated components, they use dodgy math. (E.g. they can supply 200W on the 12V line or 200W on the 5V line, and claim total power of 400W even though they can't supply both at the same time.)
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 05:26:36
I saw a comparitive review of a bunch of different top quality PSUs in a computer magazine once. For the lulz, they threw in a white-box 400W from Maplin. They increased the load on it (the were using special equipment to test it) and as it hit 150W it started whine and smell odd. When it hit 170W or so, it actually exploded... Says it all really.

The other trick used by cheap PSU manufacturers is the temperature one. The ability of a PSU to deliver power is affected by how hot its internal components are. Cheap PSU manufacturers often claim wattage at a temperature lower than the PSU would ever operate at. Good ones will rate for the temperature it is likely to be on at near maximum load, and the better quality components will be able to stand the heat better anyway.

Quote
An interesting thing is the delta ones in my intellistations don't automatically turn the computer on when plugged in; whereas, in the thinkcentres, soon as you plug the stupid things in, it causes the computer to boot. I'm assuming it's a PSU issue, but it could be the computer itself.


A lot of Dells do this too.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 08:01:01
Quote from: kishy;196614
Anyone happen to know what's up with the newer Thermaltake TR2 430W units? All I can find is info on older versions of the same model that claim different specifications from each other.

I know it's a discount unit but I'd kind of like to know what to expect from it.

It's an HEC 350W. They keep changing the casing and load tables, but as long as the model # is "W0069**" or "W0070**" the internals are the same HEC garbage.

Though it might as well be a SeaSonic compared to this Linkworld.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 26 June 2010, 08:17:37
Power supplies are a great reason to get old computers. By the time a computer's 15 years old, you've got to know it's got a good power supply. And old computers use much less electricity.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 08:25:05
They use a lot of power relative to how powerful they are. My phone is probably faster than a Pentium 2 machine, and it lasts 2-3 days on a small battery.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 26 June 2010, 08:26:48
Yeah, but it costs an arm and a leg to actually use a phone for something.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 09:27:56
Quote from: ripster;196649
I have a simple Power Supply test.

If it is PC Power & Cooling - buy it.

If it is NOT PC Power & Cooling - don't buy it.

Bought a high end OCZ LED blinkomatic once and it fried itself in 2 years.  Ironically enough OCZ bought PC Power & Cooling so I made sure I stocked up with an extra before Quality goes downhill.


Already has. I think high end OCZ LED blinkomatic is a good description for the current PC P&C Silencer Mk. II lineup. I mean, they aren't terrible, but the build quality and electrical performance are nowhere near as good as the original Silencer units.

But there are other good brands. Currently my "always good" list includes Corsair, Enermax, Antec, and SeaSonic. And there are good units from other brands floating around as well.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 09:36:23
Yup, SeaSonic S12. Same as the Corsair TX650 and HX620 (only those two). They're nothing great performance wise these days, just average, but they're still very reliable, usually the only part that wears out during normal use is the fan. Of course, I think most of them are still under warranty; we'll have to see how these units do a few years from now.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 26 June 2010, 10:07:42
I just did something really stupid. I went to check Microsoft's hardware compatibility list to see what PSUs it approved. As if they would test anything that critical.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 10:46:54
Corsair is my brand de choix, they're easily available, and most of the models are Seasonic units.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Sat, 26 June 2010, 13:45:08
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;196635
It's an HEC 350W. They keep changing the casing and load tables, but as long as the model # is "W0069**" or "W0070**" the internals are the same HEC garbage.

Though it might as well be a SeaSonic compared to this Linkworld.

Well, at least it's better than something...

It reliably runs my desktop with my ridiculous 22 amp graphics card (despite that being significantly over the 12V max according to the sticker) so I'm good with it...for now...

(22 amps is the figure specified on the box, I can't seem to find that repeated online though. Google results are suggesting 17A which I believe is my 12V max if the PSU sticker is to be believed)
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 26 June 2010, 14:35:20
Seasonic
PC Power and Cooling
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Sat, 26 June 2010, 17:56:54
I hate when people say "Corsair don't make the PSUs man so don't support them!"

Corsair:
- Puts the internals that they do not make in an attractive package that they do make
- Has an outstanding warranty
- Prices their units very well

I have every right to like Corsair. Also, the XFX 750W has brilliant internals apparently. My Corsair VX550 has 52A combined. That's better than your ****ty Thermaltake Toughpower 700W+s, etc.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: bionicroach on Sat, 26 June 2010, 18:09:59
Quote from: gr1m;196754
Corsair:
...
- Has an outstanding warranty
...


Seconded.  I got a bunk HX 620 on my last system build which burnt itself up in spectacular fashion after running fine for about a month, but one call to customer service later, a brand new unit was on its way.  The second unit has been rock solid for a good couple years now, so I'd definitely buy Corsair again.

You can end up with a dud PSU from any brand (who knows what happens to it in shipping, etc) so the most important thing IMHO is how easy the exchange process is.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 18:12:15
Quote from: gr1m;196754
I hate when people say "Corsair don't make the PSUs man so don't support them!"


Well, very few do. I mean, doesn't PC P&C subcontract their production out to Seasonic as well?
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: bionicroach on Sat, 26 June 2010, 18:24:14
Quote from: ch_123;196764
Well, very few do. I mean, doesn't PC P&C subcontract their production out to Seasonic as well?

Not sure about Seasonic, but as Ripster mentioned, PC P&C sold out to OCZ a while back for sure.  Not that that means they have a bad product now, just not the same as it used to be.

Just another sign of the times trending toward everything being owned and made by one giant corporation.  (skip to 3m07s - can't get the youtube tag to do it...)

Not a valid youtube URL
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: audioave10 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 22:37:21
my .02 worth....
Corsair HX620 - 4 years of serious abuse
Corsair HX520 - 3 years of serious abuse
Antec 550 - 4 years of serious abuse
all are going strong still

I had an Enermax 550 die after one year which led to me going to the Corsairs.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Sat, 26 June 2010, 22:40:50
How can you abuse power supplies? Do you toss them in the oven every weekend? Maybe connect some tri-SLI GTX 480s twice a week for a torture test?
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: audioave10 on Sat, 26 June 2010, 22:44:48
No man...just heavy gaming like modded Stalker series, Crysis, GTA 4, modded Oblivion and Fallout3 and also with big hungry video cards while both CPU & GPU are overclocked. Usual stuff.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 30 June 2010, 06:06:26
PSUs are interesting stuff.

Has anyone ever taken a closer look at what's inside one of these old OEM Astecs that were used ca. '99 (110 or 145 W stuff)? My box here has been running with a 110 watter modified with a YS-Tech fan for 5+ years, only the dust had to be cleaned out every one or two years. I once met a guy on the interwebs who swore by them, running a rather grown-up Athlon system using a 110 watter with only an additional 60 mm fan installed for better cooling.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 06:59:24
A 110W is fine if you have a dual core, no dedicated GPU, one HDD, and don't do anything really intensive on it. For web browsing it would work fine. Though I don't see the point when you can get a Corsair CX400 for like $30.

Edit: Also, those old units are all geared toward delivering +5V power, not the +12V power modern systems need. That means that the wattage is effectively lower. A system like I described would pull maybe 70W during internet browsing, with approximately 50W on the +12V. On an old school 110W that would be approaching the +12V maximum. Also, if it's group regulated then the voltage regulation will probably be a bit wonky, which could cause problems. It isn't a horrible idea to run a system like that on an old 110W, but I definitely do not, do not recommend it.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 30 June 2010, 07:08:16
10 years ago you could get good power supplies quite inexpensively made by Sparkle.  I just did a search and it appears they are now "SPI" and there are many of them on Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=50001389&IsNodeId=1&Description=sparkle&name=Sparkle%20Power%20Inc.) with good ratings.  Anyone used them here?  I put a ton of these into service over the years and never had one fail.  Though back then power requirements were much lower than today.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 07:11:14
They're owned by FSP now, and most of what they sell are low-end FSP rebrands. Far from the worst out there, but nowhere near the tier they were at 10 or 15 years ago.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 30 June 2010, 07:28:13
When I built my current system I had a PSU fail.  When I got a replacement I ended up with a half aluminum, half clear acrylic LED infused PSU that has a knob on the back to adjust the fan, I liked that feature but the flo-green switch and neon blue were things I just accepted.  I'm not a gamer and typically try to stick to server-class hardware built for stability and longevity but in this case I went with the bling-bling neon disco-of-the-future affair.

Found the model, it's made by Apevia.  I don't know how good this PSU is, but it's worked well for over 2 years and I run a lot of drives and devices off of my system and I like the wrapped cables.

(http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/SkuImages/gallery/large/a107-2000-A.jpg)
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 07:40:14
Well, if it has worked so far I'm sure it's alright. I just wouldn't touch a PSU like that with a ten-foot poll.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Wed, 30 June 2010, 07:43:21
It's only worked because you haven't run anything intensive on it.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Wed, 30 June 2010, 07:48:11
Besides, cheap power supplies don't have to explode. They can do other subtler things like kill your hardware (a motherboard and a stick of RAM were the victims of a 250W Bestec HP PSU).
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Wed, 30 June 2010, 08:10:52
I've heard of Bestec (Friend's HP) but I haven't heard of Bestect.

I buy Corsair in my new PCS (SeaSonic rebrands, if I recall correctly). I scored both for pretty cheap on sales (relatively. You don't skimp on a PSU).

I also have a ThermalTake that is probably a cheap rebrand but has been doing well, and an Antec TruePower that's a few years old that's also been chugging along.

I need a break after being victim of the capacitor plague that destroyed everything in one of my PCs. Then again, saying "everything is working fine" ALWAYS seems to bring on trouble.

*knocks on wood*
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Wed, 30 June 2010, 08:16:38
Typo, I meant Bestec.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Wed, 30 June 2010, 08:26:25
Quote from: gr1m;197903
Typo, I meant Bestec.


Yeah, that's REALLY bargain bin stuff right there. I remember because my friend had to replace his PSU after he put real load on it (6800GS when he previously used integrated).
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:04:19
Quote from: gr1m;197897
Besides, cheap power supplies don't have to explode. They can do other subtler things like kill your hardware (a motherboard and a stick of RAM were the victims of a 250W Bestec HP PSU).


So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?

Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;197899
I've heard of Bestec (Friend's HP) but I haven't heard of Bestect.

I buy Corsair in my new PCS (SeaSonic rebrands, if I recall correctly). I scored both for pretty cheap on sales (relatively. You don't skimp on a PSU).

I also have a ThermalTake that is probably a cheap rebrand but has been doing well, and an Antec TruePower that's a few years old that's also been chugging along.

I need a break after being victim of the capacitor plague that destroyed everything in one of my PCs. Then again, saying "everything is working fine" ALWAYS seems to bring on trouble.

*knocks on wood*


I thought if a computer gets a broken capacitor, it just gives a silly message in the BIOS, rather than destroying the whole computer.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kriminal on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:06:28
im running a ABS tagan 800watt PSU for almost 2 years now with no issues..
guess i'll get a corsiar on my next build seeing as pc p and c got bought over...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:10:06
Quote from: EverythingIBM;197971
So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?


Yes, that's exactly what I imagine happened. My 7950GT was probably too much for the power supply, and so operating above the pathetic levels that cheap power supplies can operate at, it delivered inconsistent power and killed components.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:12:23
Quote from: gr1m;197896
It's only worked because you haven't run anything intensive on it.


I use Solidworks which is pretty intensive.  It's actually the reason I finally upgraded my 1999 440BX PII system in 2007 because there is no way on earth it would run Solidworks.  But I mostly surf the internet, and use it as a file server.

I hope to get 8 years longevity out of my current system too.  Excluding PSU, fans and drives of course.  Movable parts all fail eventually.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:14:15
Quote from: didjamatic;197892
When I built my current system I had a PSU fail.  When I got a replacement I ended up with a half aluminum, half clear acrylic LED infused PSU that has a knob on the back to adjust the fan, I liked that feature but the flo-green switch and neon blue were things I just accepted.  I'm not a gamer and typically try to stick to server-class hardware built for stability and longevity but in this case I went with the bling-bling neon disco-of-the-future affair.

Found the model, it's made by Apevia.  I don't know how good this PSU is, but it's worked well for over 2 years and I run a lot of drives and devices off of my system and I like the wrapped cables.

Show Image
(http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/SkuImages/gallery/large/a107-2000-A.jpg)


It's a piece of garbage. HardwareSecrets tested one straight from the OEM and it tested out at 150W before going kaboom. Apevia might have paid more for upgraded parts, but it's still a crappy design.

Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;197905
Yeah, that's REALLY bargain bin stuff right there. I remember because my friend had to replace his PSU after he put real load on it (6800GS when he previously used integrated).


Bestec aren't *that* bad. They just had one model where the +5VSB's voltage would get higher the lower the load; so while your computer is off the +5VSB is running at 6.5V, killing your motherboard over time.

Quote from: EverythingIBM;197971
So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?

It's a bit more complicated than that; but yes, there are dozens of ways that a power supply can damage or destroy your computer.


Quote
I thought if a computer gets a broken capacitor, it just gives a silly message in the BIOS, rather than destroying the whole computer.


How can it tell the capacitor is broken? Your car doesn't know when you have a flat tire, or a cracked windshield. No, capacitor failure either causes the computer to stop working, or simply causes increased noise on that line, which can damage components.


Here's an article I did on ripple/noise, you might find it informative:
http://hardwareaware.com/article/20/
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:16:18
Quote from: didjamatic;197976
I use Solidworks which is pretty intensive.  It's actually the reason I finally upgraded my 1999 440BX PII system in 2007 because there is no way on earth it would run Solidworks.  But I mostly surf the internet, and use it as a file server.

I hope to get 8 years longevity out of my current system too.  Excluding PSU, fans and drives of course.  Movable parts all fail eventually.


If you have the thing on 24/7 you probably will need to replace the fans in 8 years; but I have some computers with some pretty ancient fans... you'd want fans with bearings instead of sleeves if you want longevity.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:27:55
LOL BESTEC.

I did a co-op and some volunteer work for a local charity. Their office was equipped with custom form factor Asus Terminator computers and a couple of those unfortunate small ATX HPs.

Every single stupid one had a Bestec power supply, all of them the same ridiculously tiny form factor with minor model variations from unit to unit.

They all blew up in the course of a week or two, completely unprompted. Power on for the day, immediately arcing and flaming.

Unlike the Gateway fiasco, these Bestecs did not harm the other internal components, and I was able to build up one of the HPs in a generic case.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 12:41:38
Quote from: EverythingIBM;197971
So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?


It can manifest itself in all sorts of weird ways. You get crashes, freeze-ups, random reboots and some stuff that defies explanation - I've heard one case where a guy's DVD drive would read CDs but not DVDs, and it stopped when the PSU was replaced... Usually if people have problems with their computers that cannot be fixed by a simple reinstallation of Windows, the PSU is one of the first things to check along with RAM.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Wed, 30 June 2010, 13:59:50
Quote from: EverythingIBM;197971
So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?



I thought if a computer gets a broken capacitor, it just gives a silly message in the BIOS, rather than destroying the whole computer.

Depends on what the capacitor is for.

Cap in my Gateway from 2003 (last prebuilt desktop I ever bought) blew in 2006. It took out everything in the PC. I assume that it was for voltage regulation.

Still, it explains a lot. It blue screened and experienced random corruption for months before the caps blew. Once they did I finally opened the case, those caps that did not explode were either bulging and leaking or bulging.

EDIT: RAM, Processor, optical drives, and hard drive were all nonfunctional with a new PC. So when I say everything blew, I mean everything.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:24:11
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;197979
It's a piece of garbage. HardwareSecrets tested one straight from the OEM and it tested out at 150W before going kaboom. Apevia might have paid more for upgraded parts, but it's still a crappy design.

Good to know.  I guess I've been lucky so far.

Quote from: EverythingIBM;197980
If you have the thing on 24/7 you probably will need to replace the fans in 8 years; but I have some computers with some pretty ancient fans... you'd want fans with bearings instead of sleeves if you want longevity.

I already had to replace 2x 120mm 3spd. fans in my Antec P80 case and it's only 3 years old.  My home PC runs 24x7x365 in a home environment over carpet so I tend to go through fans quickly, even good bb fans.  In my data centers with clean air and stable temperatures, I seldom have a fan fail on anything.

See, I like understated cases, the bling-bling rice-a-roni PSU above was an exception I made to the rule because it had good ratings at the time I bought it.  But maybe those rating it were primarily interested in the LED's rather than Capacitors.

(http://www.avgs.gresouth.com/images/antec-p182_q.jpg)
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:37:14
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;198013
Depends on what the capacitor is for.

Cap in my Gateway from 2003 (last prebuilt desktop I ever bought) blew in 2006. It took out everything in the PC. I assume that it was for voltage regulation.

Still, it explains a lot. It blue screened and experienced random corruption for months before the caps blew. Once they did I finally opened the case, those caps that did not explode were either bulging and leaking or bulging.

EDIT: RAM, Processor, optical drives, and hard drive were all nonfunctional with a new PC. So when I say everything blew, I mean everything.


You can replace capacitors right? So if you caught them while the computer was having problems and re-soldered some on, it would have been fine?

The old computer I salvaged from my school has some capacitors that look a little bulgy, but nothing is wrong with it.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:38:58
Quote from: EverythingIBM;198027
You can replace capacitors right? So if you caught them while the computer was having problems and re-soldered some on, it would have been fine?

The old computer I salvaged from my school has some capacitors that look a little bulgy, but nothing is wrong with it.


Yeah, you can do it yourself if you're skilled or pay someone to do it for you (http://badcaps.net/)

The stuff usually isn't worth repairing though. Not at this point, anyways.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:48:20
Warning to any newbies... Capacitors can kill you long after being unplugged.  Really.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:49:34
Especially that big capacitor in the middle of a CRT.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:51:40
Fortunately most computer parts either the caps don't hold enough charge to kill you, or they have a bleed resistor. However, you can't count on that. For instance, any decent PSU will have a bleed resistor for the primary caps, but cheap-os often don't, and so can hold obscene amounts of power for hours or even days. But good ones are usually safe within a minute or two.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kriminal on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:56:06
even if the caps are bulgy it can still work, but leaky\faulty caps destroying other components in its wake is quite new info to me..
when the Caps in the dell machines on work started bulging and leaking, the machines gave a weird heating issue error upon POST.
ended up having to either change the caps or the motherboard...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Wed, 30 June 2010, 14:58:06
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;198040
Fortunately most computer parts either the caps don't hold enough charge to kill you, or they have a bleed resistor. However, you can't count on that. For instance, any decent PSU will have a bleed resistor for the primary caps, but cheap-os often don't, and so can hold obscene amounts of power for hours or even days. But good ones are usually safe within a minute or two.


The take-away from this is if you are questioning whether or not you should try to repair your PSU yourself, the answer is no.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Wed, 30 June 2010, 15:08:32
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;198029
Yeah, you can do it yourself if you're skilled or pay someone to do it for you (http://badcaps.net/)

The stuff usually isn't worth repairing though. Not at this point, anyways.

Thanks for the website! Although this isn't a great welcome for an IBMer like me:
Quote
when successful, Badcaps.net will offer a FULL polymer kit for these little jewels.  Long live the Mac users!
<-- pfff, if the macs were so great, such kits shouldn't even exist.
Well, I don't want to get rid of my computers, and usually capacitors are the first thing to go. Plus I'm paranoid of bad capacitors in my old intellistation, it's my favourite computer; a few rubycons would ease my worrying.

Quote from: ricercar;198037
Especially that big capacitor in the middle of a CRT.

Yeah... those that retain a charge in them still. Although, I've been electrocuted by outdoor christmas lights and electrical wires in a light switch, I'm sure the current isn't THAT strong in little tiny dinky capacitors.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 30 June 2010, 15:09:55
Quote from: EverythingIBM;198051
Thanks for the website!
Well, I don't want to get rid of my computers, and usually capacitors are the first thing to go. Plus I'm paranoid of bad capacitors in my old intellistation, it's my favourite computer; a few rubycons would ease my worrying.



Yeah... those that retain a charge in them still. Although, I've been electrocuted by outdoor christmas lights and electrical wires in a light switch, I'm sure the current isn't THAT strong in little tiny dinky capacitors.


Famous last words...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 30 June 2010, 15:28:21
Garbage power supply...that seems like a great idea! I've heard of some power plants that burn garbage. I bet it's possible to do that to a smaller scale with a computer. The trash would blend right in with my computers so it'd hardly make a difference.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Wed, 30 June 2010, 15:30:08
If unsure, get insulated-handle screwdriver, short posts. Then wait a sec and do it again. And a third time just in case.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Thu, 01 July 2010, 12:47:28
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;198052
Famous last words...

Right up there with "Hey y'all- lookit this!"
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: gr1m on Thu, 01 July 2010, 12:52:03
Quote from: Nonmouse;198306
Right up there with "Hey y'all- lookit this!"


Or, "Grab my beer for a second, I'ma show you sumpn'"
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 01 July 2010, 14:04:08
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;198052
Famous last words...


Well I was too lazy to turn off the power for the lightswitch. And the christmas lights... well... was trying to unscrew a [broken] bulb while they were plugged in (guess I was too lazy to unplug them lol).

Christmas lights were probably the worst since they were DC. Damn does DC ever bite.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 01 July 2010, 16:13:03
Can anyone with any sort of proper education in electrical engineering elaborate on what you have to do to make a PSU safe when you open it?
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Thu, 01 July 2010, 16:30:08
Quote from: ch_123;198429
Can anyone with any sort of proper education in electrical engineering elaborate on what you have to do to make a PSU safe when you open it?


Here (http://tinyurl.com/37tsdyr) ya go...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Thu, 01 July 2010, 21:37:25
Quote from: Nonmouse;198438
Here (http://tinyurl.com/37tsdyr) ya go...


I think this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ibm+makes+the+best+computers) is better.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 04 July 2010, 09:03:04
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/5/2/LBJ2_p1_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Well, looky what I got. It's a turd in a box!

(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/0/6/LBJ2_p2_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Seriously, have you ever seen a product box as bland as this? A picture of the power supply and the word "POWER" with a cheap photoshop globe effect in the background... There's no mention of the company/brand (Linkworld) no advertising BS, no specifications, nothing, just cheap cheap cheap. Utterly generic.

The box is extremely light too, like it might float away in a stiff breeze.

(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/c/d/LBJ2_p3_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

And here we have the model #. The average customer might not be able to tell, since it's just a stuck on sticker that you can't even tell if it's from the manufacturer or the store. But that's what it is: a Linkworld LBJ2 430W.

(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/d/1/LPJ2_p4_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

And here we have the contents of the box. A power cord and a power supply and hey wait a minute...


(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/185/b/9/LPJ2_p5_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/185/c/3/LPJ2_p6_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)
They're not the same power supply. The one on the box has one of those monitor plugs, while the one inside instead has a power switch and voltage selector switch. The one Gabe Torres got two years ago had the monitor plug; guess they've made some revisions. Can anyone say "borderline false advertising"? Granted I prefer this version, but how cheap are these guys?

(very)

Also, I just thought of something. Gabe's version had the monitor plug and no voltage selector switch... That means that his version can only use 115V input (since it lacks active PFC). However, his version also had upgraded versions of components used purely on the 230V input. Which means that those upgraded components were... ENTIRELY POINTLESS. Hold on tight, folks, I'll be saying that a lot.


Anyway, that's the first installment of "THIS POWER SUPPLY IS A PIECE OF ****ING TRASH". Stay tuned for more!
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 04 July 2010, 09:29:28
Let's talk about the exterior more.

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/2/0/LPJ2_p7_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Here we have the cables, and cost cutting is extremely evident. The wires are very thin, 20AWG, while the recommended gauge is 18AWG. The loadout is as follows:
x1 ATX 20+4 pin
x1 ATX12V 4 pin
x2 Molex
x2 SATA
x1 Floppy

The connectors are all different, colors, indicating that they were picked to come from the cheapest source. The SATA connectors are obvious modifications to an original design, being black vs. translucent or white like the original connectors.

(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/e/2/LPJ2_p8_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

The exterior casing is about as generic as it gets. Note that there is no sleeving on the cables at all, even a plastic sleeve where they leave the housing. That means that these thin wires with their thin insulation will be rubbing up against bare metal. Can anyone else say "inevitable short circuit"?

There is very little space for airflow. I forgot to mention earlier, the unit uses an 80mm rear fan. Ok, fine, but at least give adequate venting for air to enter the power supply. Instead it just has a few holes punched through the case metal, which is, by the way, 0.5mm aluminum that bends very easily.

Oh, and you can see where a zip tie holding an internal component comes through under the cabling. Whoops.

(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/c/c/LPJ2_p9_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Here we have the specification table, which lists info on all kinds of LPJ2 models from 180W to 500W. I'm curious to look at the <250W models, because... Oops, spoilers. :p

Ours is the 430W model, which gives us:
+3.3V - 25A
+5V - 34A
+12V - 18A
Combined +5V and +3.3V - 190W Max

Remember those figures, folks, 'cause we'll be talking about them later.

Anyway, these amperage ratings are typical of a low-end power supply adapted from a Pentium 3-era design, when computers drew mainly from the +5V and +3.3V rails, instead of the +12V like modern machines. The +12V rail is beefed up a little, but really a "430W" power supply should have a +12V amperage of at least 32A, over half again what this claims it can do.

It also provides a service number which would be helpful for submitting an RMA when this garbage inevitably self-immolates, except that there's no warranty card in the box, no contact info on the outside of the box, and Linkworld's website is a ****ing turd. Wonderful.

(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/185/9/4/LPJ2_p11_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Looking on the bottom of the unit we find--da da-DA! MORE COST CUTTING!!!! Rather than use, you know. $0.005 standoffs to lift the main PCB off the casing they just punch and raise sections of the case. Fantastic. This also gives the user an idea of how thin and flexible the casing really is.

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/185/7/6/LPJ2_p10_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Let's break the warranty sticker and see what's inside this piece of ****.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Sun, 04 July 2010, 11:07:00
Heh, I like this kind of critique.

Mind you, it's worth noting that crappy power supplies are quite useful when rebuilding older ATX systems, say P2-P3, as they don't need much juice and won't max out the crappy PSU, and the original PSU may be developing reliability or even safety issues as it ages.

It's especially nice when the cheap units have a proper disconnect switch on the back. One thing I've never trusted about ATX is the system is required to keep itself turned off.

Out of curiosity, what quality is the included cord? I've seen some pretty scary cords come with PSUs from all over the quality spectrum (regarding effective gauge of the conductor inside). 10A rating, my ass...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 04 July 2010, 11:36:31
I forgot to mention the cord. It isn't the worst I've seen... But I wouldn't power a computer on it. Maybe a printer.


And these aren't suitable for even old systems, as units of this caliber generally have little or no transient filter and wholly insufficient filtering on the secondary, meaning that ripple and noise levels will be above those allowed by the ATX specifications at all times, which will damage your hardware. Another model from Linkworld (not this one) was tested to have 3000mV of ripple on the +12V rail. That's 3V, 25 times the 120mV allowed by the ATX spec. That will kill your hard drives, motherboard, GPU, even your CPU, in days. This one isn't quite as bad, ~300mV, but you'll still have significant damage within a couple months.


Here's the full article:
http://hardwareaware.com/review/linkworld-430w/
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Sun, 04 July 2010, 11:56:12
Well...I wasn't expecting it to be THAT terrible.

All I know is I've run a lot of crappy off-brand power supplies and while a lot of them have become unreliable...toss another in the system and reliability problems go away. No catastrophic failures in this house yet.

I'm still surprised that the Bestec explosion computers were entirely usable with new power supplies as well.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 04 July 2010, 12:13:16
Well, consider that the PSUs in those machines lasted a good 8-15 years before becoming unusable. Why replace it with something that will fail inside of 2 years?

I recommend two units for old systems. One is the Zippy Emacs 300W:
https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&productId=2077482&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&ddkey=https:CookieLogon

Highest reliability ATX 1.3 PSU on the market, I highly recommend it. Only problem is the fan sounds like a jet engine, so if you don't like the noise or feel uncomfortable with undervolting the fan then I'd grudgingly recommend this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182006&cm_re=Rosewill_350W-_-17-182-006-_-Product
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 04 July 2010, 12:22:31
That thing makes my 14-year-old Deer PSU look like Grade A quality.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Sun, 04 July 2010, 12:34:08
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;199358
Well, consider that the PSUs in those machines lasted a good 8-15 years before becoming unusable. Why replace it with something that will fail inside of 2 years?

I recommend two units for old systems. One is the Zippy Emacs 300W:
https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&productId=2077482&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&ddkey=https:CookieLogon

Highest reliability ATX 1.3 PSU on the market, I highly recommend it. Only problem is the fan sounds like a jet engine, so if you don't like the noise or feel uncomfortable with undervolting the fan then I'd grudgingly recommend this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182006&cm_re=Rosewill_350W-_-17-182-006-_-Product

Why replace with something failure prone? Easy, I get it for free.

That said, interesting recommendation on the Zippy. Brand name alone suggests utter crap that must be kept far, far away from anything...can't judge a book by it's cover I guess?

I've got an unfortunate situation with a Hipro standard ATX power supply out of an HP 505n. It works, it reliably powered the system, but I had to dump the HP case. Power supply mount holes are standard buuuuut....upside down. Mounting it right-side-up blocks the vent holes against the case top. I just wanted to equip that computer with a new case and be done with it, but instead I had to go hunting in the closet of doom for a PSU of unknown reliability.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 04 July 2010, 12:40:49
Nope, they're server grade. Compare the pictures of that Linkworld to this:

(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/136/1/0/Zippy_d_9_by_Phaedrus2401.jpg)

Absolutely packed with components, and weighs more than my Corsair TX750. +5V regulation inside of 1%. Quality capacitors. Good heatsinks. One of the best transient filters I've ever seen, and so beefy it needs its own PCB. A polished 1.25mm thick aluminum casing. It's a beast of a power supply. Zippy's retail units were even better, back around ~2007. The problem is they focused on electrical performance (voltage regulation, ripple suppression) and build quality, and so you ended up with some of the best power supplies of the time in plain aluminum casing with unsleeved cables and jet planes for fans. So they didn't sell, and now they're only available occasionally in Canada and from specialty stores like Jameco.

Beast of a power supply though.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Sun, 04 July 2010, 12:45:30
Wow...really, really can't judge a book by its cover.

That might be a worthwhile purchase just to have one in the house as a spare. It couldn't do the job for my desktop (again with the 22A graphics card) but a good test bench PSU would be nice to have around.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sun, 04 July 2010, 12:51:25
Yup. Only complaints about the Zippy are the fan, and I'd prefer to see the +12V at ~12-15A, and with a bit tighter regulation. But that's not a huge concern for P2/P3 systems. The +5V regulation, which is important, is amazing. 4.98V idle, 4.95V under maximum load. Steady as a rock.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 05 July 2010, 15:57:05
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;199382
Yup. Only complaints about the Zippy are the fan, and I'd prefer to see the +12V at ~12-15A, and with a bit tighter regulation. But that's not a huge concern for P2/P3 systems. The +5V regulation, which is important, is amazing. 4.98V idle, 4.95V under maximum load. Steady as a rock.


Those zippy things look very similar to the case of the 300PL PSU, whatever it is.

Would you be able to change the fan on those zippy PSUs?
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:32:09
PHAEDRUS SMASH!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8J8p7I_FHY
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Nonmouse on Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:43:04
Would've been more amusing (and pyrotechnic) if it'd been plugged in...
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: kishy on Tue, 06 July 2010, 14:03:55
What you should have done was overload it so it self destructed.

Props either way of course.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Lenny_Nero on Sat, 10 July 2010, 13:53:17
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;196653
Yup, SeaSonic S12. Same as the Corsair TX650 and HX620 (only those two). They're nothing great performance wise these days, just average, but they're still very reliable, usually the only part that wears out during normal use is the fan. Of course, I think most of them are still under warranty; we'll have to see how these units do a few years from now.


My first S12 is something like 7 years old. Its been running since I got it, same for my HX620's one of which I got a few weeks after they came out.
If I buy a PSU I go for Seasonic or the Corsair versions (some of the cap qualities go up from 85c to 105c), a few of the new Corsair units are Channel Well Tec, which are far from generic quality pony, but not my first choice, that said, via Corsair they have a 7 year warranty and they (Corsair) dont seem to muck you around when you back stuff.

I use a shop often that has a deal with OCZ and keeps pushing there POS PSU's in their forums saying they are some of the best quality money can buy, they are not happy with my posting of JG links and just telling people to go to the OCZ PSU forums and then the Corsair ones and look at the numbers. They might be less money but what is your kit worth to you ? IMO the PSU is the heart of the box.

At the end of it I just point out that I have never seen a Seasonic or Corsair PSU go bad and take anything else with it, in fact I've not seen that many go bad at all.
But I have seen FSP and no name units take out memory and motherboards.
Also the state of the power coming out of the cables from some of these 'came with the case' PSU's might be able to come close to their rated power (most far from it) but the line supply will be all over the place making all of your other kit have to work much harder.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Lenny_Nero on Sat, 10 July 2010, 13:58:17
Quote from: ch_123;196764
Well, very few do. I mean, doesn't PC P&C subcontract their production out to Seasonic as well?

Yes, for some of the range.

But as to the going ons now (post OCZ) who knows.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 10 July 2010, 14:10:09
I can just tell from the name "Linkworld" that it's a Chinese piece of junk.
Title: Garbage power supply
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Tue, 13 July 2010, 01:14:27
Brands and OEMs

1 Name Corsair's three current OEMs.

2 Name the OEM and platform of the OCZ StealthXStream 700W.

3 Name three retail PSU brands who are their own OEM.

4 What OEM uses the branding "Hi-Power" on its PCBs?

5 This OEM was founded in 1993 and has manufactured for many brands including Antec, Enermax, and Inwin. Their reputation was marred in 2005/6 due to incidents with poor capacitors, but are currently going strong. Who are they?



Technical

6 What's a reasonable +12V amperage for a 600W power supply?

7 Name five reliable capacitor brands.

8 Are ATX PSUs linear or switched?

9 Does active PFC have any impact on efficiency?

10 What's the role of the PWM chip in a power supply?


Opinion (do not score)

11 What's the difference between single rail and multi rail ATX PSUs and which is better in your opinion?

12 Is the Huntkey X7 900W a quality power supply or no?

13 Which is better: Antec Earthwatts EA430, Antec Earthwatts EA430D, Antec Earthwatts EA430D Green?





0-1 points = Completely incompetent, should not be giving any opinions on computer power supplies.

2-4 points = Some baseline knowledge, but lacks real understanding of PSUs' internal workings or knowledge of brands and OEMs.

5-8 points = Solid knowledge and competent enough to give basic advice and recommendations, but doesn't have a full understanding.

9-10 points = Knowledgeable enough to give reliable advice in most computer power supply subjects, though not necessarily an expert.


Opinion questions: these have no "correct" answer, but can be used to gauge the general PSU knowledge level of the tested individual based on expressed knowledge and how they justify their answers. Especially useful for weeding out those with good Google-fu, as they won't be able to justify their positions.



I'll post the answers on the second page. Get to it!


























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