Well, if you haven't used a trackball before I wouldn't go jumping into a $100+ Microsoft Vintage one first thing.
The Logitech Trackman Marble at $35 is quite usable. And after playing with it a while you may decide you want a big 2" trackball or prefer a small thumb one.Show Image(http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~eugenem/rsi/lmm.jpg)
At a Wedding last weekend the DJ used the Logitech Marble trackball. I asked him why and he said he has had to setup in the weirdest locations so couldn't rely on space for a mouse near his setup.
It's not like you're working your way up, like there's some kind of skill involved with trackballs. Having a non functioning trackball that's useless like that one is, because it has no scroll wheel, and unusable keys, you might as well not even bother getting one, it's just a waste of money to get anything but a tbo or tbe. Not to mention the piss poor drivers logitechs have, although there is a special driver you can get for them that enables more functions, in addition to that their lifespan and durability is crap compared to a tbo or tbe. A tbo will last you your lifetime if reasonably cared for, those logitechs are in the trash in a few months. Or they're missing the ball cause they won't stay in well. I had two of those, they suck horribly. 5 button + with a scroll wheel, or don't bother.
Thanks for replied. But wow, are things really THIS bad?. Like I said, I can not use ebay or any foreign online shops (mostly because of my country custom regulation) so I'm stuck with whatever local sellers got in stock. If even the most pricey Cordless can not perform then maybe I should consider return to the darkside - from what I've read about Ikari Laser perhaps not so dark.
P/S : From your suggestion, I read some more about Microsoft's trackballs and the appreciation they're gotten. But when I can justified the exorbitant price of $112 for a NIB G80-3000 LSCEU (which I bought and enjoying to no end) for I understand it's the very same Das KB II that used to be sold at $129 retail, I find it's hard to shell out that much for an used device whose manufacturer no longer supports, especially when the manufacturer is Microsoft. My past experience with they desktop set and Intellipoint/type software for OS X wasn't quite enjoyable. Sorry if I'm sounding like a n00b in new territories but I am and also am trying to be a pragmatist.
The Trackman Wheel is pretty good, I'm not sure about the validity of this "Logitechs will fall apart after a few months" statement.
Just checked Steelseries and Razer homepage, no trace of Mac support for any of their gaming gears, just like what Logitech did with their old mice (MX518 included). But, surprisingly, all their trackballs - even 8-year old design like Trackman Wheel - are supported in new version of control software or whatever their call it for Mac.
With ebay's out of question I may have to settle with a corded version. Thanks you, Chimera but I don't consider myself skilled in modding so paying premium for a wireless-and-frequently-dropout device is a no go also. The only question is, Trackman Wheel or Trackman Marble? From what I saw, Trackman Marble is the closest thing to the golden standard of 5-button with 4 while Wheel, of course, have a scroll wheel :)
Which one should I choose?
The main problem with all their trackballs is for one the ruby points in them, and two, the ball they use scratches like 2 or 3 times as easy as a tbo/tbe. With heavy use the ball becomes worn. All of their trackballs are like this, their balls just suck relative to the tbe. The ruby points wear our 2 or 3 times as fast as the carbide bearings in tbo/tbe's. The cords, switches, and pretty much every one of the parts in their product are just not made as well, and just aren't built well and not made for heavy use.
That combined with the crappy ovalish stylized design which is really all about form over function, and relative difficulty to depress buttons on almost all their trackballs just makes a relatively piss poor product.
The trackman wheel is like a toy compared to a tbo, seriously. It's half the size in the ball, and just doesn't fit an adult hand. The rubber used on the side of the trackball, and the wheel degrades after a few years and turns into a sticky soup. And again, no 4th or 5th buttons, so navigating is a pain in the ass, no back or forward buttons. Just a sucky totally outdated product.
I don't have a wide range of trackball experience, but I can contribute with a warning against one model: http://jack.is/angry/m01047.php
And I stand by my assertion that buying a $100 plus Microsoft collectors item trackball because of dubious quality concerns is just crazy.
Here's the Ruby bearings close up. Ewwwwww........!
The quality concerns are just the tip of the iceberg of why you should get a tbe, and not some junk logitech. The main point is that the design of the tbe is 100 times better than any trackball ever put on the market, hands down. There's nothing else that even comes close to it, every other trackball is flawed in one way or another.
That's the main point and all there is to it. There's simply no point in getting any other trackball but a tbe, no matter what the cost, cause they all suck in comparison for one reason or another.
Thansk you all very much. Yet after some last minute diggings I found another local seller, he've got several Kensington Orbit Trackballs with Scroll Ring for sale at $45 per item.Show Image(http://images.acco.com/KENSINGTON/K72337US/K72337US-20241.jpg)
I've heard quite a lot of great things about Expert Mouse and Slimblade but certainly they're at another class for both being around $100 mark. Are Kensington's mid-range series any good? From the first sight I thinks its weird shape seems not as ergo-friendly as Logitech Trackmans, what about durability and accuracy? The bigger the ball, the more precise I'll get, am I correct?
Ever hear of a thing called subjectivity?
Trackballs aren't art.
So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?
It's subjective because some people may prefer a thumb trackball over an index one, but don't put crappy logitechs that clearly don't have the same capabilities as the TBE or TBO in the same category, and say it's subjective when it's not.
That's like saying that a G15 is better than a Model M it has backlighting, LCD screens and Macro keys whereas the Model M does not. Sometimes extra functionality is meaningless. I spend 95% of my computer time using mice with only three buttons (and some occasions, only two) and I don't see how that's a huge disadvantage.
I know one capability that the Logitechs have that the MS whatsitcalled doesn't have!
...
...
...
You can buy them at a reasonable price.
Yeah, sometimes added features are superfluous. Having 5 well positioned buttons on a mouse or trackball aren't. You may prefer to handicap yourself with a 3 button mouse, but I can surf and get around applications I would wager two or three times faster than you can.
Actually, you don't. If you have a halfway decent browser, right click, left click, OH WOW ITS LIKE HAVING FIVE BUTTONS. And don't get me started on mouse-less browsing...
Seriously, why stop at 5? Why not 10? Why not a gazillion?
And as for capability, doesn't the MS trackball have plastic rollers? Sounds like my CST wins this idiotic plane fight analogy...
Capabilities are different' from features. The G15 is a far more capable board standing alone than a Model M. However it looses because the main purpose and point of a keyboard is to type on, and it misses the mark because it uses suck ass keys. A Model M with those features would win the battle hands down.
You're still comparing and confusing useless features with capabilities. Rollers add longevity, and the hassle of changing points, but that only becomes a drawback at most once a month even with the heaviest use. There's no added capability that metal rollers really give you. You also can't count software or other hardware features that make up for the shortcomings of your device that would do the job if you were using the higher level device.
A 5+ button trackball would have capabilities far past a tbe. There's obviously a point where having more buttons becomes useless because there simply aren't enough functions to map to them. I think the number is around 10 probably. Although there's something to be said for a nostromo/tbo type device as well. 5 is really the minimum you need though. That's why my gaming trackball hacks are superior to tbe's, but you can't buy them on the open market so.
Here's another contradiction. Again, by your logic, the Logitech G15 is better because although it has 'suck ass keys', they don't do anything than the high quality buckling springs do. Sure they're less reliable, but hey, that's something that is only a concern if you're making heavy use of the keyboard.
God knows people don't make heavy use of mice ^o)
Right, but so far you have given no objective reason why five is the best, and consequently, a user of a three-button trackball would be equally correct in saying that five is too many, or a user of a seven-button trackball would be equally correct in saying that five is too few. So far, your point is "Five buttons is the best because my trackball has it. My trackball is the best because it has five buttons. Everyone else's favorite trackball which let's them use in a perfectly efficient manner is **** because it is not my trackball"
Honestly, this whole magical 5 button thing is being taken a bit too far. 5 is nice, but hardly needed for web browsing. Button counts are more important in games than something like web browsing. Hell, in normal browsing you only need left/right/scroll. Everything else can be virtualized using proper plugins. Up the button count to 4 and you have enough for 99% of the web browsing needs: left, right, center, back, scroll. How often do you really use forward? In my experience, it's easily handled with a gesture.
That elusive 5th button isn't that important, and the selection of trackballs increases significantly without the need for it. Unless you're doing heavy trackball gaming, I wouldn't worry about it.
The main point and difference in capability however is not just a feature, and is not the same. Having buckling springs vrs rubber dome is more than just about durability, it's about ergonomics, and usefulness of the keyboard. It affects the amount of time that the keyboard can be used, and probably also the speed which one can reach typing. This is where the Logitech fails, and it's a critical fault.
5 buttons and a scroll wheel is the best number because if you use your trackball to do anything on the web, the ability to click, translate forward, back, up, down, side to side, and bring up an option menu on a page at your fingertip is a necessity. It takes a lot of time and concentration to move your cursor up to a back or forward button, to scroll sliders on the side of the page, possibly hundreds of times in a session, and wears on you. 5 buttons allows complete navigation at your fingertips. 4 or less does not.
I own or at one time owned pretty much every trackball that's ever been produced commercially, including rarities like the Logitech fx's wired and wireless that are now selling for even more than the TBE's. They're all my trackballs. I would have loved if any of the Logitech trackballs were as good a trackball as a TBO/TBE, but they're simply not. When the Trackman cordless came out I went out and bought it in the first week or so that it was out and had my hopes up so high. I've even requested on logitech's forum that they actually make a trackball that is functional and pointed out the flaws. I now use the balls for them in my hacks because the trackball itself is just an inferior product and the only thing of any worth is the ball, because it is relatively large.
When I'm not using a tbo or tbe, or one of my hacks, there are functions that I have with the TBE, that I'm missing. It's as simple as that. I would have thought it would be obvious. Have you ever used a 5+ button mouse or trackball?
As for the plugins for back/forward without lifting your finger from the trackball, virtually any gesture plugin will do the trick. Hold RB, press LB, release RB & LB and vice versa. (Rocker gesture) Hold RB/LB and move mouse left/right, release RB/LB. (Typical mouse gesture)
Once you get used to them, they're 90% as efficient as a dedicated button.
Edit: One caveat to the "90% as efficient part". This is assuming non repeating use of the button. If you have to, say, back up 15 times, a gesture is nowhere near as efficient as a real button. However, this is typically the exception to the use of such buttons - not the norm. The benefit of a gesture is that you can do it anywhere on the page in a nearly subconscious manner. (Going up to the back button on the browser GUI requires a conscious move/confirm/click.
Gestures are ridiculous, hard to use, and take a lot of time and effort, possibly more than actually pressing an on screen control. It takes at least 2 or 3 times the effort of just pressing a single button. You even admitted this when you stated it's difficult to use them in succession. Plus in my experience they activate a lot when you don't intend them to.I've never had a gesture fire off when I didn't want it to, and the movements are quite easy to use once you get used to them. Also, just because you can't do something in sequence rapidly doesn't mean it isn't fast for doing it once. A rocker gesture is an order of magnitude faster than moving the mouse to the back/forward button and only marginally slower than a single button click. It's annoying to use over and over again, but for actions that aren't common, it's more than sufficient.
If you think I'm trolling you, you're sadly mistaken. I rarely use a forward button while web browsing. I backtrack to a previous place and then go to a new location. It is very rare that I want to go back to where I just came from. That behavior is more common in file browsing for me (copy/paste). But even then, if I'm going to be doing that more than a couple times, I open two windows for easy navigation back and forth. Not everybody has the same usage patterns as you.
And I never said it was a useless feature, I said it wasn't the end all be all. I wouldn't limit my options just because a trackball doesn't have it.
Well I can only say for myself but in fact I hardly find anything except left, right, scroll and middle (usually also scroll). In Firefox - my main browser - simple gestures can easily substitute back, forward and closing tab.
Of course, more button will always be welcomed in gaming or production apps which rely heavily on macros. I'm using none so I think I'll be content with either of current Logitech trackballs.
I ordered the "like new" Trackman Marble after all. At $17, the worst case scenario is just a small lost or it can always acting as an off-hand sidekick - where the righty-only Trackman Wheel simply can't. If the aftertaste is sweet then maybe I'll jump through hoops for a more serious trackball like Expert Mouse or Slimblade.
I just used forward twice coming back to this page after deciding first not to post, because you're clearly just trying to troll me at this point, and then decided I
would respond by pointing out how ridiculous you stating that a forward button is a useless feature. lol
To me it sounds like you're saying that you have to work around not having a forward button, and are trying to justify handicapping yourself.
I miss boxxy. sigh
It's always amusing to read intelligent people claim that opinion is fact, and then rationalize judgements as objective proof. Kudos, chimera15, you've been quite entertaining today.
Trolling? Maybe just a little. I'm really hoping to see you open your closed mind just a bit.
I Pity The OP That Just Wanted A Under $50 Trackball!Show Image(http://www.infotech.com/images/email/AprilFool/mr-t.jpg)
Well, I guess he did ask for it in his post.
You mean like this one?Show Image(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6WOoTO_7VuQ/SyMTHeGCdGI/AAAAAAAAAHc/QQDLZmbp2hA/s800/%2Fsdcard%2Fdcim%2Fcamera%2F2009-12-12%2012.39.25.jpg)
I Pity The OP That Just Wanted A Under $50 Trackball!Show Image(http://www.infotech.com/images/email/AprilFool/mr-t.jpg)
Well, I guess he did ask for it in his post.
Nice one. But don't pity me, I always know what it's really coming when asking for recommendations in such a geeky community like this. Believe me when I say I've had my fair share of flamewar, still never feel enough :)
@Chimera: I do think TBO/TBE are solid products when it comes to trackballs, still I'm not going to bid over the odd for them even if I'm financial able. Let me explain why, in general I believe in "you get what you paid for" when it comes to commercial goods. A Model M which used to be priced at several hundred bucks decades ago very likely costed IBM nearly as much money to manufacture, and that amount (of money) explains its famous tank-like quality, adding inflation and it's possible to partially justifies the currently very high prices comparing to modern mechanical kbs. Antiqueness, uniqueness, nostalgia... does the rest. In short, for me a device which costed $100 to make 20 years ago, is believed to be able to serve for 50 years (with good reasons), in good condition and not an ounce of practical value lost is acceptable at $100 todays.
In case of Microsoft's trackballs, I understand they were widely available for fifty something (correct me if I'm wrong) when first released, naturally their manufacturing cost could only be as low, I believe quality and durability also went that way. By the same logic, to me they are products which costed $30 to make not a decade ago, are considered to be able to serve for much less than 50 years (again with good reasons), in good condition and not an ounce of practical value lost are only acceptable at certainly much much less than current asking prices, i.e upwards $100. Numbers may vary but my logic remains the same. Rareness, sought after-ness....makes up most of them hefty tags. Those are values I'm not ready to pay for.
From a knowledgeable consumer's viewpoint (and certainly not a fierce fan), when brandnew high-end also proved highly functional trackballs from a respectable brand like Kensington are on shelves for $75-100 with years of warranty, software support in bleeding edge OS....taking risk with discontinued, used ones in grey market for the same or higher amount is downright unreasonable.
But that's just me and my n00by opinion. Feel free to bashing me if offended.
I've owned every trackball that's ever been produced
It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, it is an objective fact.
Wow. You must have incredible resources. And a time machine.
Actually, I don't believe you.
Flagrant exaggeration like this doesn't help an argument. You're saying you OWNED all trackballs back to the 1970s experiments at Xerox PARC? A Macintosh Portable, Duo 210, 230, 250, 2300? All the Dells, Gateways, Zeniths, NECs, IBMs, et al, that ever existed, OWNED, a SAIC milspec trackball? a Portable SPARCstation? Your claim is not convincing.
You need to become better acquainted with your dictionary. These words apparently don't mean what you think they mean.
Validating your subjective preference widely doesn't elevate your opinion into fact, regardless of the diversity of your experience. It is a fact you like product X, but it is not a fact that your opinion of product X holds true for every human on the planet.
Your argument is flawed.
God shoots pool, but only with commercially released trackballs.
Further, subjectivity is a matter of perspective. The larger perspective you have, the less subjective a subject matter becomes by definition. With humans there will always be exceptions, all that matters is a majority. For instance, obviously if you're left handed, a tbe won't be for you, and it's unfortunate, but it's your loss.
The problem here is that your testing parameters are subjective. Any time you attempt to rationalize them, you rationalize the G15 being better than a Model M.
Show Image(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/4751407738_83f5a09f5b.jpg)
I already told you, the g15 is better than the model m, for everything but typing and durability. So if you want to buy a keyboard and don't want to type on it, or for it to last more than a year or two, you should go for a g15. That's not subjective, that's objective.
Einstein didn't consider himself an atheist. Stupid 4chan.
Actually, that turns out not to be the case.
You still seem to have difficulty discerning subjective versus objective. Your blanket generalizations are not true for everyone in all cases, not even true for most people in most cases.
There are objective requirements contradicting your subjective evaluation of the G15 as "better" for everyone. For reference, here are a few objective traits that may cause a G15 to be inappropriate:
- need for lower cost
- need for a specific tactile feedback (e.g. mechanical switch preference)
- need for a particular rollover
- need for a particular size
- need for availability from a particular vendor
EDIT
Agreed. Einstein was neither joking nor irreverent when he said God doesn't throw dice.
The only difference between subjectivity or objectivity is if something can be measured or not. The performance of a peripheral can be measured, and it's perfectly clear that the majority of the measured data falls on the side of what I stated.
The durability of other trackballs may be better, but the capabilities those trackballs with better durability are significantly less.
Again, that is their main purpose of being trackballs is measurably less. And again, a granite rock has more durability than any trackball, it doesn't make it a better as a trackball. Therefore as an objective statement they are not as good. You seem both seem to predicate your attempts at calling my statements subjective rather than objective that data regarding the performance of trackballs, or keyboards is immeasurable.
You seem to want to impune my experience as a trackball expert. If so I suggest you gather a trial of right handers aged 20-70 and show that my data, and theories are inaccurate.
When comparing things, there are multiple parameters that can be considered. Often one item is better at one parameter than another, so the assessor has to determine which parameters are more important, which is often dependent on what the assessor wants. Thus the subjectivity.
I would consider prolonged correct operation to be a highly desirable capability in anything I buy, would you?
The primary purpose of a trackball is move a cursor around the screen, and yet you claim that steel rollers that cut down on the need for constant cleaning and provide noticeably smoother movement are less important than non-standard mouse buttons? Ehh-ehrr, wrong answer.
Well, the burden of proof is really on you to provide some rational explanation as to why this MS whatsitsface is the only trackball worth buying, as opposed to being a good trackball that happens to be your personal favorite.
The prioritization of capabilities of a peripheral is not subjective.
Rollers don't affect the overall operation or capabilities of a trackball, and increase complexity in the device which cuts down on potential longevity. It's really a push as far as metal rollers are concerned.
With the exception of metal rollers, the TBE beats every other trackball ever commercially produced in every category. It would take an extremely detailed and long post to go down the list of capabilities. I don't have that kind of time to devote to this. Maybe if you want to pay me I would. I have other things to do, so you'll have to take my word for it, and continue to think of my statements as subjective if you want. I really don't care anymore.
Go go random assertions!
Complexity? It's two free-rotating metal rods. Not exactly rocket science. And given how prone to being ****ed by dirt the little plastic bearings are, I'm confused by this claim that the use of metal rollers decreases a Trackball's lifespan. I call bull****.
And if it can't handle the basics, why bother with everything else? What was it that you were saying about the G15?
How convinient.
Certainly like any individual raised in a Christian religious society where 95% of the people believed in a Christian God, they were going to be reticent to fully proclaim themselves to be atheists.
How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.
I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research.
It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.
> All you have done is say I'm wrong, that everything [Chimera said about objectivity in the "best" trackballs"] is subjective
> [snipped something I never asserted],
> that peripherals aren't science,
> and that they're the same as choosing a sandwich.
Agreed. I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. An assertion that the TBE is the "best" trackball for all people based on your experience is demonstrably fallacious, and not an effective argument for reasons I've already stated. Apparently at least one other agrees with me.
As far as a mathematical proof regarding a "best" of anything, I do not subscribe that such is possible for sandwiches or trackballs, for reasons I've already stated.
Onwards,
Source = New York Times Magazine on November 9, 1930 pp 1-4. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm)
>
I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.
I don't believe I've argued that the TBE is the best for all people, but simply the majority.
Originally Posted by gr1m
So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?
Originally Posted by chimera15
Not when clear capabilities are sacrificed. A person can choose to handicap themselves I suppose, but it's an illogical and unreasoned choice. That's not subjectivity.
Obviously there is going to be a basic set of parameters that are going to be universally comfortable to everyone.
I don't believe I've argued that the TBE is the best for all people, but simply the majority.
Originally Posted by gr1m
So you're saying that a person cannot prefer a specific trackball in the same way that they can prefer a specific mouse, keyboard or sandwich?
Originally Posted by chimera15
Not when clear capabilities are sacrificed. A person can choose to handicap themselves I suppose, but it's an illogical and unreasoned choice. That's not subjectivity.
Obviously there is going to be a basic set of parameters that are going to be universally comfortable to everyone.