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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ouuo on Sat, 03 July 2010, 06:42:58

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sat, 03 July 2010, 06:42:58

Hello,

I'm looking for some product advice and am hoping it's not too rude to come here and ask for it.

In the hope that it's not; I'm going to be upgrading my PC soon and thought it's about time I get a decent keyboard. After doing some reading it seems that 'decent' means 'switched'.

I go through keyboards pretty quick - I'm quite heavy handed and type fairly hard (although this may be the result of years of using dome based keyboards which quickly become unresponsive, as you'll understand after I go on), I'm prone to spilling things into/on my keyboard and I smoke, which means my keyboard tends to end up a bit on the Pompeii side.

I also work from home so my keyboard sees a lot of use between coding, emailng, chatting and playing games (whatever keyboard I choose must be a reasonable gaming choice - I'm slightly worried that a switched keyboard would seem less responsive...?).

So yeah, as a result of all that, normal cheapo domed keyboards last me about a month. Last time I decided to get something a little better and went with Cherry Marlins which do a bit better and last about 6 months (I've had 3 at this point).

As a result of having the Marlins for 18 months or so, I'm very used to typing on a low profile board, which I guess is another concern. Non low-profile keyboards feel very strange to me now but I guess this is something I can get used to again if it's worth it.

So after some searching, my choices seem to be:

An old IBM Model M
I don't think this is quite right for me. They are, by all accounts, pretty heavy, and I type with my feet up and my keyboard on my lap, so this may get uncomfortable. They're also pretty pricey, especially here in the UK.

Unicomp Stuff
Customizer 104/105 probably. These look fine. Not too ken on the styling but that's secondary. The real problem is the price, the keyboard itself is cheap enough but with postage and customs and whatever coming to more than the cost of the thing... well, it's offputting.

Cherry G80-3000
Looks nice. Switched. Not bad price (cheaper than the other two options). Having had (an admittedly far lower down the product chain) Cherry, and also after reading a few reviews, I'm a touch worried about the build quality. I mean mechanically they sound great but the materials used seem quite poor? I know the keys on my Marlins were made of extremely thin plastic which took very little time to just start breaking (the little pegs which held the scissor-switch things broke off in no time and the keys themselves are so thin that they just crack). Other than those reservations the Cherry looks a good choice though. Not beautiful, but certainly not ugly. Not too massive. Just, y'know, utilitarian and workmanlike (which I like).

Das Keyboard
Stupid name. Don't particularly like the looks. Don't like the marketing and apparently based on a Cherry anyway? Also, way too expensive (unless it's amazing).

So... I'm leaning towards the Cherry, but have I missed anything? Are there other keyboards I should consider?

I feel I've written too much already, but I guess the more you have to go on the more you can help, so I'll just list my kinda requirements in order of importance:

durable (though not at the expense of anything else on the list. I would like it to be durable as well rather than instead of the other stuff. I mean, I'm not after a tank, just something that will last a reasonable length of time)
comfortable and fast
decent/comfortable/responsive for gaming
ideally no bull**** keys (media keys and app keys and all that nonsense)
smaller the better, though must be a proper fullsize keyboard with numpad and all that
not too ugly (though plain and utilitarian is good)

I think that's about it!

Thanks for your time. And again, I apologise if it's rude to just pop on here asking for advice.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: vhaarr on Sat, 03 July 2010, 07:23:18

I'd say try a Model M; they are heavy, but not that heavy. If you don't mind the sound of it, that is.

You can find them cheap enough if you can get a used one.

If you don't like the sound of a Model M, then I'd try a Realforce Topre-based board, although they are very expensive.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: trievalot on Sat, 03 July 2010, 07:27:59

uTron

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sat, 03 July 2010, 07:46:02

Realforce: too expensive and no numpad and strange key configs.
uTron: what the hell.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:04:07

Spilling is a problem. The only boards that are resistant to minor spills are Model Ms and Unicomps. Cherry G80s are quick and easy to open in order to remove cigarette butts and bottle caps, but they're unlikely to survive any spill.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: vhaarr on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:09:57

That said, cleaning a Topre board is easy, and it's not likely that the key switches themselves will be damaged from the spill. Hence why I recommended it as an alternative to Model M.

Why do you need a numpad?

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:11:39

smoking, spilled drinks, 'quite heavy handed'.

IBM Model M would be my first choice.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:13:52

Model M and their Unicomp equivalents are probably the best boards if you really like banging on the keys. You don't need to, but the springs are fairly stiff compared to standard rubber dome boards so they require a bit more force. Also, they'll take abuse like nobody's business - including burning tobacco.

The only reservations I'd have is that IMHO they really are a bit large to have them sitting on your lap. Though I just tried it and it's not too bad. The weight I don't think is much of an issue. They're only heavy compared to other keyboards, but most laptops weigh significantly more than a Model M.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:16:58

Blue logo Model M with the drainage holes.  And if the keys were to get too dirty, you can just remove the keycaps and wash them in the dishwasher.  I have a Model M and it's the best keyboard I have.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:22:28

I'm slightly reluctant to go for a Series M just because... I like new for stuff like this.

That in mind, the Unicomp is looking like a favourite. But the price is offputting. I mean, I can get the Cherry for about £50 whereas the Unicomp is (with postage etc.) double that - is it worth double? Is there anything particularly bad about the Cherry?

With the spilling... I'll just have to be more careful :)

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: trievalot on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:32:27

if size is an issue, get a model m mini.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:36:05

In terms of typing feel, the Cherry G80 is a good keyboard, but it's nowhere near as well built as either a Model M or Unicomp.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Sat, 03 July 2010, 08:38:05

Do what I do: Slouch at your desk in a way so that you spill on yourself, not on your keyboard. Abuse as an extended ashtray is fine with Cherries, I can tell.
If you decide to get a Cherry, go for a black one, they have thicker keycaps. White keycaps on new Cherries are terribly thin. They're not going to break, but they have an ugly hollow sound and feel. G80 cases look and feel like cheap crap, but the boards will still work for decades - unless you spill beverages on them.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 03 July 2010, 10:07:23

If you type hard, then I think that you want to stay away from Cherry G80-xxxx boards (The ones with MX switches). The springs in the MX "blue" and "brown" switches are very light.

If you are not getting a Model M: I have used a bunch of KeyTronic rubber dome keyboards in my time. The board is very light, and while it may seem quite flimsy, it is quite durable. The domes last longer than many others, and in my opinion they are harder and less mushy than many others. They don't seem to be available over here in Sweden any more, but are still abundant in some places, apparently. If you could find a good deal on them, then I suggest that you get yourself a few of them.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 03 July 2010, 10:16:36

Quote

An old IBM Model M
I don't think this is quite right for me. They are, by all accounts, pretty heavy, and I type with my feet up and my keyboard on my lap, so this may get uncomfortable.

Please bear in mind that the adjective "heavy" is a relative term.  Sure, a Model M weighs 5 pounds/2kg or so, (give or take) which sounds like a lot, but, personally, I find that the weight is more reassuring rather than oppressive.  

I'm dating myself tragically here, but back in the days when the Earth was newly cooled, (and keyboards weren't the throwaway items they are today) people expected their keyboards to have a bit of heft. I've found that, usually, when someone says that a Model M is "too heavy," they're comparing it to today's featherweight $5 Made-in-Futung keyboards that, while offering excellent value, aren't something your hands are likely to thank you for subjecting them to over the long-term.

I, too, like to type with my keyboard on my lap and/or knee.  If the Model M were a real lap-crusher, it likely would have been relegated to the closet long ago.

Quote

They're also pretty pricey, especially here in the UK.

Speaking for myself, I'm a cheapska^dub^dub^dub price-sensitive sort of chap, so I've always tried to get the most keyboard for the smallest amount of money possible.

Have you looked around ebay.co.uk?  There's usually a metric diaperload of Model M keyboards there and the prices, relatively speaking, aren't too bad.  If you're willing to exercise a bit of patience (and elbow grease) you can likely find a high-quality keyboard there at a reasonable price.

Alternately, scouring local second-hand shops might be worth a try.  Some people seem to change keyboards as often as their socks and you might find something worthwhile there.  

The only specific recommendation I would make is that, as a previous poster suggested, you might want to take a look at a "blue logo" Model M:

http://www.3m3718.com/bluelogo.php (http://www.3m3718.com/bluelogo.php)

..seeing as how, from what you've told us, you spill things on your keyboard from time to time.  The blue logo Model M is purportedly a bit more spill-resistant than the older, grey logo Model Ms.  Also, the blue logo models, being newer, aren't usually as sought-after as the older models by collectors, so they tend to be available for less money.

As a caveat, the newer the Model M, the lower the build quality tends to be, so you are trading off a bit of quality for the spill resistance.  However, the lower build quality is in relative terms, so while the blue logo Model Ms aren't quite as good as the older Model Ms, they are still streaks ahead of anything you're likely to find on a shop shelf today.

Anyway, the reason I make such a fetish of gibbering about the Model M is that, in my own experience, it's a keyboard I can treat any-old-how....and it still comes up smiling.  

I'm pretty rough with my stuff and the Model M is my keyboard of choice simply because it's not something I have to constantly fret over being nice to (unlike the other 99% of computer peripherals sold today).  Apart from which, the buckling spring keyswitches are rated for ~25 million cycles.  Barring anything catastrophic, the Model M is a keyboard that will not only be with you for years, but will also likely feel the same a decade from now as it did when you first started typing on it.  Not many keyboard manufacturers can say that about their current offerings.

Finally, a keyboard is something that you are faced with using day-in and day-out.  I understand the reluctance to spend a lot of money on one, but it might be worth considering that a higher-priced, higher-quality keyboard is actually cheaper in the long run.  What I mean is: your time is irreplaceable, and when you factor in the time it takes to shop for/obtain/break in a new keyboard every few months, it adds up pretty quickly.  Frankly, it would drive me (even more) gaga to have to take time out to replace my keyboard twice a year, so the Model M is a good choice if you're the sort of fellow that considers replacing computing gear a huge PITA that you would trade a kidney to avoid.
 
(Of course, it's only fair to admit that some people derive enjoyment from replacing/tweaking their keyboards.  In fact, I've heard there's even an entire forum dedicated to those sorts of doings, if such a thing can be believed.)

Anyhow, you may want to consider giving a Model M, blue logo or otherwise, a test drive even if it turns out that it doesn't suit you.  The majority of keyboard manufacturers today are, let's face it, primarily concerned with making cheap things even cheaper.  Since you only have one pair of hands, it's well worth taking the time, trouble, and expense to give them the best possible typing experience you can with the money you have available to you.

To be clear: I know what it's like to have to shop for stuff when the funds are low and the Fabulous Babes are slow (and I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here).  That said, perhaps the question to ask yourself when you're looking at keyboards isn't so much "How much does this particular keyboard cost?"  but "How much are my hands worth to me?"

Just a thought. [shrugs]




PS: Two snaps up for working a reference to Pompeii into a discussion on keyboards.  Awesome.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 03 July 2010, 10:33:08

How long did it take you to type that whole rant?  Good information in there though...

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 03 July 2010, 10:53:35

Quote

I'm slightly reluctant to go for a Series M just because... I like new for stuff like this.

I understand where you're coming from.  I, too, am sometimes reluctant to own Other People's Stuff. :)

The thing is, it usually doesn't take all that much work to restore a used Model M to something that you'd be proud to have on your desk.  Seriously, unless the used keyboard you pick up has washed up on a beach somewhere and was then sold to you, it's a fairly straightforward process to clean up a used Model M.

http://www.preater.com/modelm/#mozTocId681291 (http://www.preater.com/modelm/#mozTocId681291)

Unicomp offers pretty good value for money, to be sure.  It's just that, depending on who you are, there can be a huge amount of satisfaction to be had in obtaining a decade (or two)-old  keyboard, cleaning it up a bit, then connecting it to your 21st Century machine.  

(You can also have fun showing off the "birth certificate" on the back of the keyboard to visitors and watching their mouths fly open.)

I mean, today's keyboards are largely designed to be replaced rather than maintained.  Cleaning up your keyboard before putting it to use gives you a chance to get to know it a bit better than simply opening up a box does, IMHO.

Anyway, as I say, it depends on who you are.  In my own case, I'm afraid that "new keyboard smell" usually comes with a pricetag I'm reluctant to meet. :)


Edit: redundant quote/made URL clickable link

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 03 July 2010, 10:56:08

Stupidface should be a writer.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: audioave10 on Sat, 03 July 2010, 11:59:08

Stupidface...nice post. I've bought two Model M's from Clickykeyboards.com.
Both were blue label from 96 & 95. These were so clean and nice they could have been new to me. Brandon does a great job. $45 and $50 were the prices.
linky...
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 03 July 2010, 12:09:37

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;198981

How long did it take you to [strike] type that whole rant[/strike] contain that outbreak of keyboard diarrhoea?

Um, er, yes, I'm afraid that in any discussion involving Model M keyboards, (or worse, the prospect of someone contemplating the possible purchase of a Model M) I'm fairly easy to spot: I'll be the one foaming at the mouth and falling over backwards. :redface:

Seriously, though, I hope the ratio of expectoration to information there wasn't too terribly lopsided. :sorry:

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Sat, 03 July 2010, 12:46:16

Quote from: Stupidface;199006

Seriously, though, I hope the ratio of expectoration to information there wasn't too terribly lopsided. :sorry:

Nope. Your first two postings easily contained more information than the ~590 of certain other members.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 03 July 2010, 13:24:34

Quote

Stupidface...nice post.

It's kind of you to say so.  I hope I didn't bore the arse off the OP and that they got some useful information out of it.

Quote

I've bought two Model M's from Clickykeyboards.com.
Both were blue label from 96 & 95. These were so clean and nice they could have been new to me. Brandon does a great job. $45 and $50 were the prices.
linky...
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/

Brandon Ermita definitely has some nice stuff.  If the OP were based in the US, clickykeyboards.com or Unicomp would probably be good choices.

The catch is that the OP is in the UK.  While he mentioned he liked the Unicomp Customizer, he also expressed some reservations about the net cost of the keyboard after P+P and customs duties (which could easily double the price).  I'm also not sure if a UK (as opposed to US) layout is particularly important, but if it is, he'd likely be better off looking for something closer to home.

Are you happy with your Deck keyboard?  If the OP is okay with Cherry switches, Deck might be the way to go, seeing as how they apparently have a European distributor (in Germany).  I know of Deck, but I've never owned one of their keyboards, so perhaps you could comment on your own experience for the OP's benefit?

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: mcdonc on Sat, 03 July 2010, 13:32:09

Cleaning up any random old Model M is easy, but of course nothing is easy the first time you do it, because you don't have anything to compare it to.  For this reason, if you can find two old crufty Model Ms with the same part number for less than, say, US $20 apiece, I'd buy both of them and clean both of them up.  That way, if you break anything (which is really very hard to do), you can recover by using the parts from the other.  If you wind up not breaking anything, you now have two keyboard from which to choose; give the other one away as a gift if you have a geeky friend; she or he will love it.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: mcdonc on Sat, 03 July 2010, 14:07:45

I should also say that if you weren't in the UK, and shipping wasn't so high, and you just wanted to buy something without needing to clean it up, that keyboards from Brian O'Neill ("rarekeyboardstore" on ebay.com) are refurbished fantastically, and priced very well.  I've also heard good things about clickykeyboards.com.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 03 July 2010, 14:16:24

Quote

I'd say try a Model M; they are heavy, but not that heavy. If you don't mind the sound of it, that is.

Good point.  For all of its high quality and durability, the one thing the Model M keyboard is not...is quiet.

I don't know how they compare to the Cherry Marlins you've been using in terms of volume, (perhaps someone who owns both can chime in here?) but there's a sound file in the middle of this page under "sound bytes:"

http://www.3m3718.com/omnikey.php (http://www.3m3718.com/omnikey.php)

...that will give you an idea of what you'd be in for should you decide to go with a Model M.  Geekhack might have something comparable for you to check out, but I don't know where it is offhand.

Some people find the sound the Model M makes reassuring.  However, it's only fair to point out that roommates, siblings, spouses, etc., might find it to be something altogether different. :dizzy:

(I'm not trying to talk you out of a Model M purchase, just letting you know in the interests of complete information.)



Edit: correcting singular/plural mistake

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sat, 03 July 2010, 14:38:17

Thanks for all the info!

Stupidface, your posts have been great. Your rabid (in the nicest possible way) enthusiasm is exactly the sort of stuff  that sways me because... if someone feels that strongly, well, there must be something special going on, y'know?

So thanks, I've really enjoyed your posts :)

The clickiness doesn't bother me at all.

Marlins are just dome keyboards with those scissor-type arrangements on top. A bit harder wearing than the usual disposable rubbish but not by much.

(I currently have the old numpad-enter key, with bits cut off, serving as a makeshift shift key since my shift key wore out (I seem to only use the right shift for typing, and it's also jump in games so... it always goes early) and the H and ` keys are switched over since the H key gave out. And the ctrls are switched since one of them stopped working and... you get the idea)

I actually quite like the idea of pulling an old keyboard apart and refurbing it. I'll definitely think about this and have a poke round ebay ato see what's out there (it'll be a month or two before I start buying stuff anyway so plenty of time).

Thanks for all the advice everyone, this is exactly what I'm after :)

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Sat, 03 July 2010, 14:41:06

Stupidface is to the Model M as Two Cables is to his Filco Tactile Click.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 03 July 2010, 14:50:45

Get an IBM Model M5-2.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sat, 03 July 2010, 15:02:17

Don't listen to MS Windows, he is more "rabid" than stupidface.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 03 July 2010, 15:40:34

Quote from: ripster;198964

I sued Dell because I took a bath with my laptop and now it doesn't work!

If you did, I don't think you'd be working either.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: washuai on Sat, 03 July 2010, 17:51:28

If you're willing to buy yourself a spill proof mug and open and close it for every drink from it, then you could get any keyboard.  For example, cherry blacks or clears sound like they would suit you, but they aren't up to bathing.

If you're not going to do something to stop spilling, then
*Realforce 103UB 55g - they exist regular layout and full size.
*unicomp or other buckling spring.
*silicone roll up (full sized and mostly normal layout with controller box along top not the side are best of them)  

Some misinformation I've seen in this thread.

Quote from: ouuo;198942

Realforce: too expensive and no numpad and strange key configs.
uTron: what the hell.

There are full size regular layout RealForce topre boards, even in the 55g force flavor.  Even if you have the variable lighter version, you're free to hammer on the keys, they can take it.  Yes, they're expensive.

Scissor switches are easy to break, just removing a key cap, so they don't compare to other mechanical cherry switches in durability at all.  A lot people complain about how quickly they change in feel/sound, etc.  My laptop keyboard had to be replaced recently and the only crime I committed was age and dust.

Cherry switches are much more solid, even the notoriously complicated blues.  That said they definitely aren't into lapping up beer, etc.  I am careful about drink positioning, leave the cheapie free plastic cover over my Filco, when I'm not typing (good for dust prevention, too), et cetera.  My spills tend to end up on me, more than my board, historically.

Otherwise, there are other industrial or spill proof options, but they cost more and generally, like the silicone boards are generally not considered a good typing experience.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 03 July 2010, 23:07:36

Quote from: ouuo;198937

Hello,

I'm quite heavy handed and type fairly hard
I'm prone to spilling things into/on my keyboard and I smoke
whatever keyboard I choose must be a reasonable gaming choice
durable

A Cherry black TG3 spill proof, made for emergency vehicles.

• Made to last forever, no matter what happens in the environment.
• Cherry black linear switches are firm for heavy typists
• have no click or release point anomalies to distract from gaming.

(http://www.tg3electronics.com/sites/default/files/bl82_1.jpg)

link to this one (http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/backlit/bl82)

(http://www.tg3electronics.com/sites/default/files/blt_1_large.jpg)

link to this one (http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/backlit/blt)

I own both of these, and also like Cherry blacks, so I may be able to answer questions neutrally where the rabble cannot answer without bias.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: aegrotatio on Sat, 03 July 2010, 23:10:39

I have one Memorex multimedia keyboard that I drenched in booze and whatever it was mixed with and it works perfectly after a rinse and a dry.  I also have the legendary Memorex TS1100 spill-proof keyboard which I got for $6 each (and a few others at free-after-rebate) which is my all-time favorite full-sized keyboard ever, even if it's a cheap spill-proof rubber membrane beater.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: washuai on Sun, 04 July 2010, 03:10:04

[strike]I always get the impression the 2nd one (trackball) is more spill proof, while the first TG3 posted is more spill resistant - is that a correct impression Ricercar?[/strike]  Never mind, I read, they have the same top splash resistance rating.

0.o Datacal wants on sale $245.00 for the TG3 BL82-5RBUVS!
 $255.00 on sale TG3 BLT-5RBUVS for the touch pad one.
That ebay deal for the touch pad version is much better ($70 or best offer).  
Heck, I don't know if it is as spill resistant, but TG3 only wants $119 for the blue LED Déck version.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sun, 04 July 2010, 09:49:46

Ok I think I over-emphasised the spilling thing. It's something that happens sometimes and is often solved by quickly tipping the keyboard upside down till it trickles out and then some rapid shaking, and then taking it apart and drying everything off.

The only keyboard I've owned which instantly died after a spill was some MS Natural piece of rubbish.

So... the spilling is by no means my top concern. I would much rather have something which satisfies all the rest of my needs/criteria (including price) and dies upon spillage than something which compromises some of my other needs and survives spilling.

Oh, and it's always tea.

I think just owning a decent keyboard would cause me to be more careful with my tea.

I'm also hoping/expecting that a decent keyboard, with a noticeable click (however heavy or light) would teach me to type more correctly rather than hammering away on the keys (which is something I've learned from using ****ty keyboards where after a while I have to hammer to ensure getting a letter). So I think my heavy typing has been overemphasised too - this is something I wish to correct with a better keyboard, rather than catering for it.

So, with that in mind, does the Cherry G80 start to look better? Or are there other concerns about it? I keep coming back to this one as it's the cheapest which seems to meet my (primary) needs.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: washuai on Sun, 04 July 2010, 15:32:19

Sounds like your back to Cherry blues versus Buckling Spring, then if you want clicky/budget, etc., there are people that game on them, even if blacks, clears and browns get more often recommended for gaming.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: spolia optima on Sun, 04 July 2010, 17:45:54

I'm with Microsoft windows. The IBM Model M buckling spring keyboard is the be-all to end-all in computer input satisfaction.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sun, 04 July 2010, 17:49:02

Could someone explain briefly the difference between the blue/black/clear etc. Cherries? I understand that they are different switches, and I assume some are stiffer than others. How would I find out which keyboards have which?

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:41:02

Quote from: ricercar;199229

A Cherry black TG3 spill proof, made for emergency vehicles.

• Made to last forever, no matter what happens in the environment.
• Cherry black linear switches are firm for heavy typists
• have no click or release point anomalies to distract from gaming.

Show Image

(http://www.tg3electronics.com/sites/default/files/bl82_1.jpg)

link to this one (http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/backlit/bl82)

Show Image

(http://www.tg3electronics.com/sites/default/files/blt_1_large.jpg)

link to this one (http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/backlit/blt)

I own both of these, and also like Cherry blacks, so I may be able to answer questions neutrally where the rabble cannot answer without bias.

Aren't those two light-up keyboards?

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ouuo on Sun, 04 July 2010, 18:50:42

Never mind, I did some reading and understand the different switches and stuff now.

Hmmm.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: hyperlinked on Mon, 05 July 2010, 06:04:12

It sounds like what ouuo wants is impossible unless he scores a major steal off of an auction site.

It's the mechanical keyboard version of the quality triangle... you can get a keyboard that's

• inexpensive and is durable
• is durable and is small
• is small and

inexpensive[/list]
But you can't get all three in one.

Forget about the low profile keys and you options will open up a bit. If you're at all a good typist, you'll adjust in no time and if you can't adjust, it's time to take the challenge and become a better typist.

Anyway, the idea of someone spending most of his time typing with a Model M in his lap is really hilarious.

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 06 July 2010, 14:10:59

Quote from: washuai;199266

[strike]I always get the impression the 2nd one (trackball) is more spill proof, while the first TG3 posted is more spill resistant - is that a correct impression Ricercar?[/strike]  Never mind, I read, they have the same top splash resistance rating.

Actually you're spot on. My TG3 Trackpad board has a rubber spill condom layer and the no-trackpad 'board has only a thick saran wrap type spill condom.

Quote from: microsoft windows;199497

Aren't those two light-up keyboards?

Correct. Each board has one reddish LED under every key (Red wavelengths help preserve night vision).

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Tue, 06 July 2010, 14:20:41

Quote from: ricercar;199229

A Cherry black TG3 spill proof, made for emergency vehicles.

Show Image

(http://www.tg3electronics.com/sites/default/files/bl82_1.jpg)

Hmmm...

(http://imgur.com/N5S9s.jpg)

I knew I had seen that keyboard (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=30) before...

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 07 July 2010, 14:51:03

Yes, TG3 is the OEM that manufactures those backlit keyboards for Deck to add a logo. TG3 OEM keyboards have a spill guard; Deck keyboards come with a different typeface, Cherry blue switches (as well as black), and non-red LEDs (as well as red).

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 10 July 2010, 19:39:59

Quote from: ouuo;199046

Thanks for all the info!
Stupidface, your posts have been great. Your rabid (in the nicest possible way)

[Cracks grin]

Quote from: ouuo;199046

enthusiasm is exactly the sort of stuff  that sways me because... if someone feels that strongly, well, there must be something special going on, y'know?

So thanks, I've really enjoyed your posts :)

You're welcome: I've enjoyed writing them. :)

All cheerful rabidity aside, there is, ultimately, only one person capable of deciding what keyboard will best suit your needs: you.

I was reading something on a concealed carry forum that went something along the lines of: if you tote a gun around daily, (and are trying to be low-key about it) you are, very likely, going to end up with a drawer full of holsters.  The reason being that one holster is probably not going to suit all of your needs all of the the time.                                    

Looking at some of the sigs on Geekhack, the same thing might be said about keyboards: it's hard to name a single make and model of keyboard that is going to suit you exactly all of the time.  Really, the thing to do is to try out as many keyboards as you can with an eye to making your typing experience as pleasant as possible.  In my own case, I find the Model M keyboard a pleasure to type on: it actually makes me want to type stuff because it feels so good to use.

Quote from: ouuo;199046

The clickiness doesn't bother me at all.

The auditory feedback is actually considered a bonus by some folks.  Not only do your ears tell you when you've hit a key, but the chances of someone using your computer without you knowing are sharply reduced. :)

Quote from: ouuo;199046

Marlins are just dome keyboards with those scissor-type arrangements on top. A bit harder wearing than the usual disposable rubbish but not by much.

Thank you for the breakdown.  It doesn't sound too bad, (I've typed on similar keyboards) but I can understand why you might be looking around for a replacement.

Quote from: ouuo;199046

(I currently have the old numpad-enter key, with bits cut off, serving as a makeshift shift key since my shift key wore out (I seem to only use the right shift for typing, and it's also jump in games so... it always goes early) and the H and ` keys are switched over since the H key gave out. And the ctrls are switched since one of them stopped working and... you get the idea)

A Frankenboard! :)  I do think it's pretty cool that you're wringing every last use out it, though (I'm like that, too).

Quote from: ouuo;199046

I actually quite like the idea of pulling an old keyboard apart and refurbing it. I'll definitely think about this and have a poke round ebay ato see what's out there (it'll be a month or two before I start buying stuff anyway so plenty of time).

Even if you don't have much money right now, it doesn't cost anything to look around.  eBay always offers an odd blend of fun and exasperation because there's no telling what something will ultimately sell for until the auction ends.  Anyway, if you're patient and are willing to give it a bit of time, you can probably snag something you'll like at a good price.

Are there any local thrift shops you could try?  Even if you don't find "the" keyboard there, a place like Oxfam might be a good source for spares (esp. for funky houseguests you might not want to entrust with your trusty day-to-day keyboard).

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sat, 10 July 2010, 23:50:21

Quote from: ouuo;199313

Ok I think I over-emphasised the spilling thing. It's something that happens sometimes and is often solved by quickly tipping the keyboard upside down till it trickles out and then some rapid shaking, and then taking it apart and drying everything off.

That might be another advantage that the Model M can offer you: The SDL plug found on the front of the keyboard:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11683&stc=1&d=1278818349)

(The above pic is from Brandon Ermita's site.  Note: the later models of Model M keyboards had permanently affixed cords as a cost-cutting measure as seen in the second pic.  I don't have the ability to edit photos, so I had to leave the picture as-is.)

...allows for a quick disconnect should a spill occur.  I guess you could view disconnecting the cable as "Step 2" (after quickly flipping the keyboard over).  At any rate, it's probably faster than trying to reach around to the back of the machine and yank out the keyboard cable.

Other keyboards might also have cables you can detach from the keyboard itself: I'll let their enthusiasts speak for themselves. :)

Quote from: ouuo;199313

I'm also hoping/expecting that a decent keyboard, with a noticeable click (however heavy or light) would teach me to type more correctly rather than hammering away on the keys (which is something I've learned from using ****ty keyboards where after a while I have to hammer to ensure getting a letter). So I think my heavy typing has been overemphasised too - this is something I wish to correct with a better keyboard, rather than catering for it.

Honestly, I think a Model M will help make a good typist better, but won't necessarily transform a poor typist into a good one.

However, if mashing the keys is what you think is holding back your speed/accuracy, the Model M might help:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11684&stc=1&d=1278819027)

The buckling spring you see in action there is what makes the Model M such a joy to type on (and, incidentally, expensive as hell to manufacture).  As you can see, when a key on the keyboard is pressed past a certain point, the buckling spring beneath it, well, buckles.  

What that action means in practical terms is:

A) The typist hears a loud, unmistakable "click" that lets them know in no uncertain terms that, yes, a keystroke has registered and, yes, they can stop pressing that key now.

B) The buckling spring tells your fingers that a key has been pressed well before the key bottoms out.  This means that you don't have to mash the keys like you do on the El Cheapo keyboards of today and can type with a lighter touch (though with fairly high initial resistance).

Another possible benefit (now, this bit is only idle conjecture on my part and may or may not be wholly accurate: take it as you will) could be that the steel spring helps your fingers to slow down more before the key bottoms out (assuming you do press that hard).  The rubber domes of rubber-dome keyboards are not (as a rule) quite as efficient as steel springs when it comes to slowing your fingers down before the key bottoms out.  

Essentially, when a key bottoms out, it's as though your fingers are hitting a brick wall: the buckling spring mechanism appears to be at least somewhat better at preventing your fingers from striking that brick wall.  The key difference (sorry) is that with a buckling spring, you don't have to mash the key until it bottoms out and squashes a rubber membrane in order to get a key to register: the spring buckles and travels that last bit of distance for you without any additional effort. The extra effort involved at the end of a keystroke on a rubber dome is fairly significant compared to being able to press a key halfway and have the spring do the rest of the work for you.

This might be healthier for your fingers over the long run; I just don't know for certain one way or the other.  Anyone reading should not be in the least shy about offering their own take on this so we can all benefit.

Finally, while I think of it: is there an animated .gif of a Cherry switch in action posted somewhere so that the OP can compare and contrast the two?

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sun, 11 July 2010, 00:02:12

Quote from: hyperlinked;199625

Anyway, the idea of someone spending most of his time typing with a Model M in his lap is really hilarious.

Really?  How so?

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: williamjoseph on Sun, 11 July 2010, 00:52:45

this one is famous. i wonder if it still functions properly....

(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1617/smokingkeyboard.jpg)

get the unicomp.

is this your pic? your hot!

(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8544/smokingprego.jpg)

Title: Keyboard Advice
Post by: Stupidface on Sun, 11 July 2010, 05:43:42

Quote from: williamjoseph;201473

this one is famous. i wonder if it still functions properly....

(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1617/smokingkeyboard.jpg)

I wonder if that keyboard is for sale.  

I would love to have something like that to hand to houseguests who angrily insist on firing up the host's desktop to check mail, update facebook, etc., right when we're supposed to be doing other stuff.

"What?  There's no keyboard attached?  Oh.....right.  Sorry!"

::hands them the Model "M for Marlboro"::