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geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: mcdonc on Wed, 07 July 2010, 02:09:32

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: mcdonc on Wed, 07 July 2010, 02:09:32

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-MODEL-M-PS-2-Space-Saver-Keyboard-Grey-Logo-/230496348829?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item35aaa72a9d#ht_500wt_1154

Maybe it's one of you that has been listing this thing.  Apparently it's good only for parts; sounds like maybe a burnt controller.  It was originally listed at something like $80.00 starting bid (he got no no bids), now the seller has reduced it to $60.00 on the 2nd go-around.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 02:17:35

Huh?

Quote

Keyboard is in overall good condition.
Keyboard was plugged in and tested no obvious defects were found.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: mcdonc on Wed, 07 July 2010, 02:23:12

Quote from: kishy;200164

Huh?

Whoops.  I thought it was a relisting of this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-MODEL-M-SPACE-SAVER-VINTAGE-KEYBOARD-1391472-/160453071076?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item255bbf90e4#ht_2532wt_1139  (which is indeed still at $80 reserve).

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kriminal on Wed, 07 July 2010, 05:12:45

ewwww waste of money

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: jmpespxoreax on Wed, 07 July 2010, 06:39:10

I asked this seller to open up shipping to Canada but he refused. I would buy this keyboard because I wanted to do a controller modification anyway, and it would be a neat project. Too bad he did not open up shipping when he relist it.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Wed, 07 July 2010, 07:43:46

Quote from: mcdonc;200163

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-MODEL-M-PS-2-Space-Saver-Keyboard-Grey-Logo-/230496348829?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item35aaa72a9d#ht_500wt_1154

Maybe it's one of you that has been listing this thing.  Apparently it's good only for parts; sounds like maybe a burnt controller.  It was originally listed at something like $80.00 starting bid (he got no no bids), now the seller has reduced it to $60.00 on the 2nd go-around.

If nobody bids on it now maybe we can wait and have the price lowered on the 3rd go-around?  That would be ideal.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 07 July 2010, 08:30:50

Good grief about 6 months ago I sold a working Mini that was missing a foot and it went for $70 no reserve and a complete working Mini for about $100.  $80 for a fried keyboard?  He must be related to this guy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Unitek-Keyboard-K-256-FCC-ID-DKW67MK-256-/350276906106?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518e216c7a#ht_500wt_1154).

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: phoenix on Wed, 07 July 2010, 08:47:37

Sometimes you get lucky. My M2 was described as "for parts/repair" (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150462004421) but came in perfect working condition. I couldn't be happier :)

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:38:35

I wonder if you can stuff in a standard Model M controller and make it work.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:40:15

No, they're completely different.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:43:57

I bet if you gave the keyboard a good kick it would work.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:45:43

That only works with old external hard drives.  My brother dropped his and it stopped working, so I told him "Drop it again."  So he did.  And now it works.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:57:39

You might get your brother to back up the stuff on that hard drive... It's probably going to fail again, and dropping it will stop working eventually.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: nowsharing on Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:26:50

Quote

I wonder if you can stuff in a standard Model M controller and make it work.

This has been demonstrated to work with certain versions of the normal PCBs, even with space savers. I don't have time to look up the thread right now (on lunch), but some searching will turn it up.

It looks like the one in this auction is working though.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:35:59

Funny story.

Had someone ship me a hard drive in unknown condition, Kalok Octagon KL-330, 30MB ST412 RLL.

Tried to get it to go, no spin. Cracked open the lid thinking it was junk, I'd use it as a decoration somewhere. Noticed that the heads were out in the middle of the data area...head crash almost certainly.

Figured...eh...why not. Cabled it up again, powered it on, and it spun up...and worked. The ever-so-slight jarring action of getting the lid open unstuck it.

Working capacity is 19MB though, from assorted platter damage.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:36:54

Quote from: didjamatic;200223

Good grief about 6 months ago I sold a working Mini that was missing a foot and it went for $70 no reserve and a complete working Mini for about $100.  $80 for a fried keyboard?  He must be related to this guy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Unitek-Keyboard-K-256-FCC-ID-DKW67MK-256-/350276906106?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518e216c7a#ht_500wt_1154).

Hey...it works great! Who needs keys anyways?

I'll offer the guy 5 bucks. I bet he'll feel that I insulted him.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: pfink on Wed, 07 July 2010, 14:25:07

Quote from: microsoft windows;200242

I wonder if you can stuff in a standard Model M controller and make it work.

It should work. skcheng put standard M controllers in several terminal minis (I believe kishy has one of them) and he said they work fine (except for the embedded numpad, obviously.)

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 14:56:08

Quote from: pfink;200398

It should work. skcheng put standard M controllers in several terminal minis (I believe kishy has one of them) and he said they work fine (except for the embedded numpad, obviously.)

Mine might have been swapped by Brian O'Neil (it was one of his sales to skcheng) but I do believe it was. What has me confused though is how there are no unused ribbon cable connector positions like you'd expect. Perhaps it's a normal mini PCB instead of a normal full size PCB?

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: pfink on Wed, 07 July 2010, 15:21:33

Quote from: kishy;200421

Mine might have been swapped by Brian O'Neil (it was one of his sales to skcheng) but I do believe it was. What has me confused though is how there are no unused ribbon cable connector positions like you'd expect. Perhaps it's a normal mini PCB instead of a normal full size PCB?

If the embedded numpad function works then it's the former, otherwise it's the latter.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 15:48:28

Quote from: pfink;200450

If the embedded numpad function works then it's the former, otherwise it's the latter.

SKCheng told me it was PCB-swapped, when I looked inside the connectors matched in number of contacts (which suggests a normal mini pcb, yes?), but you never know...

What key combo do I press to activate that?

Keycaps don't have the legends for it.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: pfink on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:03:24

Quote from: kishy;200471

SKCheng told me it was PCB-swapped, when I looked inside the connectors matched in number of contacts (which suggests a normal mini pcb, yes?), but you never know...

What key combo do I press to activate that?

Keycaps don't have the legends for it.

Shift + Scroll Lock should toggle the embedded numeric pad on a Space Saving M controller. If you turn it on and type J-K-L you should get 1-2-3 if you've got a Space Saving controller.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:13:01

Quote from: pfink;200479

Shift + Scroll Lock should toggle the embedded numeric pad on a Space Saving M controller. If you turn it on and type J-K-L you should get 1-2-3 if you've got a Space Saving controller.

Ha! It does!

Laptop numlock light came on. Beautiful.

One must wonder where Brian obtained mini PCBs minus actual minis.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: pfink on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:24:42

Quote from: kishy;200482

Ha! It does!

Laptop numlock light came on. Beautiful.

One must wonder where Brian obtained mini PCBs minus actual minis.

What's the model # of yours?

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:33:13

Quote from: ripster;200489

I assume your keyboard simply has different keycaps.

Possibly, but I was told (apparently incorrectly, it appears) that it was a PCB swapped terminal mini.

No complaints, of course...

Quote from: pfink;200492

What's the model # of yours?

1394540. This reputable source (http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/Keyboard.html) suggests it's for an RS/6000 of sorts.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:50:49

Quote from: kishy;200325

Funny story.

Had someone ship me a hard drive in unknown condition, Kalok Octagon KL-330, 30MB ST412 RLL.

Tried to get it to go, no spin. Cracked open the lid thinking it was junk, I'd use it as a decoration somewhere. Noticed that the heads were out in the middle of the data area...head crash almost certainly.

Figured...eh...why not. Cabled it up again, powered it on, and it spun up...and worked. The ever-so-slight jarring action of getting the lid open unstuck it.

Working capacity is 19MB though, from assorted platter damage.

One of my friends had a rather old computer whose 10GB hard drive eventually died. He found that taking it out and shaking it every time before he turned on the PC would cause it to work.

Obviously this was not sustainable, and his parents got him to ring up Dell (bare in mind that this was a family PC, and we would have been about 14 or so when this happened). He ended up in a 45 minute conversation with a call center chap in Bangladesh, which started with my friend telling him that he had a broken hard drive, and concluded with the call center guy informing him that he had "an errormatic [sic] with his hard drive".

The funniest part of the story? They were charged 200 euros for a replacement 40GB drive, back when such money would have got a rather snazzy 200GB drive, and even the 80GB drive in the computer I had seemed like a gigantic amount of space to have.

This is one of the many reasons I do not like big name computer manufactures...

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:50:57

Quote from: ripster;200501

Oh, now it makes sense.  A PCB from another IBM Model M Mini was popped into a Terminal Mini.


That's kind of a weird thing to do......

Well, now that I'm seeing it's from an RS/6000, there may not have been any swapping at all.

But, if the whole keyboard were for an RS/6000, it'd probably still have the speaker...wouldn't it?

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 07 July 2010, 16:53:10

I don't think they made RS/6000 space savers, and yes, RS/6000 Model Ms have speakers.

They also have a weird left control key, and they retained the grey logo till about 94/95 or so.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 18:09:07

1394540 is supposedly for RS/6000. I've got the case for a 1394540 and it's a mini.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11651&stc=1&d=1278543952)

No speaker present, but doesn't mean there wasn't before.

The controller in mine:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11650&stc=1&d=1278543952)

It's not original, but it's gotta be for a mini because of the number of positions in the FFC connectors, right? And of course the shift+scroll lock=num lock thing as well.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Wed, 07 July 2010, 18:23:06

Quote from: ripster;200530

I think that's an older Model M controller.  See the extra 4 pin connector for the LEDs?

Show Image

(http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/Model_M_PCB_1393291.JPG)

But why would IBM have designed the firmware for this to be able to do SHF-SCRLK number pad?

Yeah, that's weird...

Just tried Shift+Scroll Lock on a normal M ('89 1391401), didn't do anything except light up Scroll Lock as expected.

What was that ricercar did a while back with LEDs on a mini? Didn't his mini's PCB have a connector too?

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 07 July 2010, 18:45:24

Quote from: ripster;200530

I think that's an older Model M controller.  See the extra 4 pin connector for the LEDs?

Show Image

(http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/Model_M_PCB_1393291.JPG)

But why would IBM have designed the firmware for this to be able to do SHF-SCRLK number pad?

If it was an old controller, it would have a berg connector for the yellow wire leading to the LEDs. What's pictured there is a run-of-the-mill '1401 controller.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 07 July 2010, 18:57:03

Quote from: kishy;200325

Noticed that the heads were out in the middle of the data area...head crash almost certainly.

Heads didn't park automatically back in those days. You had to use a software utility to do it before powering off, like the PCTools one. Most people didn't know or couldn't be bothered.

Sometimes stiction stops the platters from spinning. One way to fix this is to gently spin the drive in your hand with power on. Build up how aggressively you do this until it works.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 11 July 2010, 10:05:58

Shot up to 173.50

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 12 July 2010, 19:15:40

Quote from: kishy

What was that ricercar did a while back with LEDs on a mini? Didn't his mini's PCB have a connector too?

Quote from: ripster;200533

I thought he stuffed his Mini membrane into a later model PCB off to one side and made some connector to pick up LED power

kishy wins. ripster loses. It was a stock Space Saving mini keyboard: the PCB had an unpopulated 4-pin connector which tested to activate scroll lock, and caps lock and NOT numlock.

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: kishy on Mon, 12 July 2010, 19:43:58

Quote from: ricercar;202092

kishy wins. ripster loses. It was a stock Space Saving mini keyboard: the PCB had an unpopulated 4-pin connector which tested to activate scroll lock, and caps lock and NOT numlock.

That's worth a 'quote for truth'!

So then it's normal that my mini has the 4 pin connector?

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: pfink on Mon, 12 July 2010, 20:38:58

Quote from: kishy;202108

So then it's normal that my mini has the 4 pin connector?

I just opened one of my M Space Savers and the stock PCB doesn't have a 4-pin connector (sorry, don't have a camera handy at the moment.)

Title: 2nd Go-Around of Space Sav{ing|er}
Post by: ricercar on Tue, 13 July 2010, 03:39:04

Quote from: kishy;202108

So then it's normal that my mini has the 4 pin connector?

jives with my experience. however, in truth, I don't recall if the connector was actually populated.