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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jamster on Wed, 24 June 2020, 01:21:41
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So I've been looking at 65% layouts and smaller recently out of curiosity and trying to figure out if I could adapt to one (though in all likelihood, if I build anything in the future it'll probably be some whacky split thing).
But one thing I have noticed is that many of them are missing a dedicated Delete key. I'm going to guess that it's usually folded into a function layer with Backspace.
So do people really not use the Delete key that often? I use it all the time. When writing sentences, I'll move the cursor and highlight a bunch of stuff, then Delete. Fix capitalisation at the beginning of a sentence, control-arrow and hit Delete. Or go through an Excel table, hit Delete. Boot into BIOS, hit Delete.
It's a critical key for my typing style and work, but the fact that it's missing from a lot of these boards suggests that people are perfectly happy to have it on a function layer.
So what's your experience, if you've moved Delete to a function layer- no frustrations at all? I keep looking at these little boards, and they all have space for a logo, or a twisty knob, but they drop Delete.
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I love the delete key, use it all the time. I could probably kind of live without it but id rather not
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Macs merge delete/Backspace, yeah, I hate it. I want both, I use delete a lot.
Another annoyance is how many small keyboards use Pgup/DN instead of Home/End. I have a scrolling mouse, I don't need pgup/DN.
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Macs merge delete/Backspace, yeah, I hate it. I want both, I use delete a lot.
Another annoyance is how many small keyboards use Pgup/DN instead of Home/End. I have a scrolling mouse, I don't need pgup/DN.
So Macs delete or backspace depending on whether some function key is held down?
I've noticed some boards forgo Home/End, but some of the will have those keys as well as page up and page down. I use all of those nav keys very, very frequently. I'm wondering if other people are less reliant on them though. Maybe they are totally accustomed to function layers, use a mouse, or just have less reason to navigate text or cells (can't imagine this last one being likely for anything beyond primarily gaming?)
I definitely don't want to use a mouse to navigate text though. That's too disruptive to my input flow.
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i wonder how you would use such a keyboard on older windows (up to 7) that require the ctrl-alt-del to start. and yeah delete is useful to me as well at work on Excel and at home because of my collection of old machines and my lack or precision with a mouse so when the thing i want to delete is on the right delete is faster. but for that i do not expect having it on a layer to be that annoying. and still a macro pad to add a few keys is easy enough to build.
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i wonder how you would use such a keyboard on older windows (up to 7) that require the ctrl-alt-del to start. and yeah delete is useful to me as well at work on Excel and at home because of my collection of old machines and my lack or precision with a mouse so when the thing i want to delete is on the right delete is faster. but for that i do not expect having it on a layer to be that annoying. and still a macro pad to add a few keys is easy enough to build.
Yeah I was thinking maybe it wouldn't be annoying in a function layer. Control-C and Control -V are commonly used, but still it's not as convenient as a dedicated key. And also I had to remap Control and CapsLock for those combinations to be comfortable. So I think that whilst I could adapt, I'd be happier not having to compromise.
A macro pad kind of defeats the point of the small board in the first place though ;) I have personally found that any extra board is just cumbersome. Even though I have a separated number pad, I never use it because it rarely stays inline properly with the main keyboard. My muscle memory is wired for a fixed location number pad too well for it to work at a different angle or location.
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I've noticed that I use it infrequently, but enough to realize that if I didn't have it, I miss it. I've only noticed lately because when using the Models F, I have had to adapt to using the numpad delete, which I'm not used to doing. On the AT, I actually remapped one of the keys on the numpad to another delete key just in case, but on the XT I'm okay, it just takes me about half a second to remember it's the period.
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A macro pad kind of defeats the point of the small board in the first place though ;) I have personally found that any extra board is just cumbersome. Even though I have a separated number pad, I never use it because it rarely stays inline properly with the main keyboard. My muscle memory is wired for a fixed location number pad too well for it to work at a different angle or location.
the whole idea i had with the macro pad is that it is out of the way until you need it for some work, but as i have not yet received all the pieces for my 60% and already broken 2 solder joints on my macro pad (it is a 2*3 and i broken the rows...) it will take more time to test that theory.
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I've noticed that I use it infrequently, but enough to realize that if I didn't have it, I miss it. I've only noticed lately because when using the Models F, I have had to adapt to using the numpad delete, which I'm not used to doing. On the AT, I actually remapped one of the keys on the numpad to another delete key just in case, but on the XT I'm okay, it just takes me about half a second to remember it's the period.
So, to highlight and delete a load of text, you'll control-shift-arrow and then hit backspace? And if you're going to delete a word, you always start from the end of that word?
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I use Del all the time - especially at work when editing things - in top right corner if I use 65% keyboard.
I prefer TKL and developed muscle memory to move my finger from cursor cluster to delete.
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Delete will always have a place on my board, backspace where Caps Lock should never have been and delete on the left half of backspace (or the whole of it on a standard layout)
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i wonder how you would use such a keyboard on older windows (up to 7) that require the ctrl-alt-del to start. and yeah delete is useful to me as well at work on Excel and at home because of my collection of old machines and my lack or precision with a mouse so when the thing i want to delete is on the right delete is faster. but for that i do not expect having it on a layer to be that annoying. and still a macro pad to add a few keys is easy enough to build.
You typicaly didn't have keyboards like that back then, at least not on those systems.
Most people simply didn't bothered with a password on those older systems, not only that but they were too easy to bypass (not that win10 is difficult).
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i wonder how you would use such a keyboard on older windows (up to 7) that require the ctrl-alt-del to start. and yeah delete is useful to me as well at work on Excel and at home because of my collection of old machines and my lack or precision with a mouse so when the thing i want to delete is on the right delete is faster. but for that i do not expect having it on a layer to be that annoying. and still a macro pad to add a few keys is easy enough to build.
You typicaly didn't have keyboards like that back then, at least not on those systems.
Most people simply didn't bothered with a password on those older systems, not only that but they were too easy to bypass (not that win10 is difficult).
i can't imagine i am the only one still using those "older" pc, and not so long ago windows 7 was still the most deployed version of windows.
The ctrl+alt+del was a security measure to not get your passwords stolen cause it would create an interrupt and only windows would handle it, so you would not type your password in an application trying to pass itself as windows login, to me it would still be a good one to have but Microsoft thinks otherwise. It never was meant as a replacement for passwords. and i do not think you can disable it on vista and 7, actually i do not know how to disable it on anything else than 2k so i may be wrong on that one. still i am happy that i will have qmk on my keyboard, so i can have both delete and backspace, i still do not quite understand why "high-end" keyboards still do not all come with it (or TMK/VIA)
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Maybe I am missing something here, but surely control-alt-delete would be done with whatever hotkey combination replaces delete? Because it's controlled at the keyboard firmware level, the OS doesn't know that it's a key combination.
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I use it all the time, too.
On my 40% ortholinear board I have multiple delete keys mapped so I can access them with my left or my right hand.
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i can't imagine i am the only one still using those "older" pc, and not so long ago windows 7 was still the most deployed version of windows.
The ctrl+alt+del was a security measure to not get your passwords stolen cause it would create an interrupt and only windows would handle it, so you would not type your password in an application trying to pass itself as windows login, to me it would still be a good one to have but Microsoft thinks otherwise. It never was meant as a replacement for passwords. and i do not think you can disable it on vista and 7, actually i do not know how to disable it on anything else than 2k so i may be wrong on that one.
Win7 still has about a 25% market share, I still use and encounter it regularly.
I can't remember ever hearing about a fake login screen but it's irrelevant today. There's no value in hacking the average computer, it's a lot of effort to come up empty handed. On the other hand, running a fishing scam through email, drive by malware, or simply encrypting your data and holding it hostage (ransomware) is a far more reliable method with almost zero effort which is why it's so prevalent today. That or they just hack/backdoor a server and steal everyone's info, which in some cases is stupid easy, I've found multiples in Google search results when looking into companies before buying from them. I wish I was joking.
Anyhow,
I've been in hundreds of offices and very rarely did anyone use a password on Windows 7, much less the ctrl-alt-del login (they also rarely did backups). You can definitely disable it, the option is in user accounts near the bottom (it can also be done in group policy or a regedit). To get rid of login completely you need to either set it to return to last user or remove the other users (or hide them with a regedit entry, use this if you have file sharing). If you then set a blank password the system should login all by itself on boot. This is mostly from memory, so it may not be 100% accurate but should get you close.
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I use it all the time.
It's a critical key
This. It is one of my most-used keys.
I could reluctantly give up Backspace, but Delete - never!
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Yeah, I use backspace a lot to fix typos, but when I think about it, I'd give it up before Del. For some reason, it'd be easier for me to control-arrow to the start of the word, and control-del to get rid of the entire misspelled word and start again.
But... this obviously isn't the case for everyone if there are lots of board options that don't have a primary Delete key.
Arrows, home/end, page up/down, delete, these to me are all primary use keys. Print screen, numlock, pause, I almost never use these.
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I use the delete key every day. I use a mainframe terminal emulator at work, and that's nearly a required key, along with all of the F keys and pause/break. I'm one of those odd people who would actually like more keys on my keyboard!
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I predominantly use Macs. The two main keyboards I use daily are a HHKB and FC660C. The FC660C has a dedicated DEL key whereas the HHKB can be achieved via function keys. I've done a lot of coding on Windows machines prior to being on Macs, and well, I do a lot of coding now. I'm also the kind of typer that doesn't think about how I type, it just "happens". This all said, I don't think I ever really needed DEL except for Ctrl-Alt-Del.
I do also use Vim when I can now, so there are many ways to do things. So I think my typing behavior doesn't need it. I've never used the DEL on my HHKB, until I just tested it now. I do think I maybe have used it very rarely on the FC660C.
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I use it practically everyday for work. It's going to be interesting transitioning to a 65% when I use all the keys on my full-size for work.
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Do you have a link?
Do not be jealous. Not everyone is able to have luxury like this.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53249.new#new
I use it practically everyday for work. It's going to be interesting transitioning to a 65% when I use all the keys on my full-size for work.
Why bother then? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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I use it more frequently than backspace. Very often. I can't see how people could get by without one xD .
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I use it all the time but I'm not bothered by it being in a function layer. I got used to it pretty quickly when I first transitioned to 60%, but I guess that depends on the user.
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Why bother then? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
but changing things up can be fun, i use about 110 of the 122 keys of my M right now, but i am still building a silent red 60% to see how it would work, change is the spice of life. And i like the "if it ain't broke, fix it until it is" (AvE) version of the quote, much more fun that way.
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Well that's a funny quote! I'm going to start saying that. Haha.
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I used a Poker II as my main keyboard for a while a few years ago and it has the delete key in the function layer. I sort of got used to using it that way, but it always felt a little awkward.
I think the "split backspace" approach is the way to go. Backspace goes above the enter (HHKB style), then backslash and delete go where backspace traditionally is.