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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: keyboardlover on Mon, 12 July 2010, 16:08:15

Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 12 July 2010, 16:08:15
Hi there,

Well I'm interested in possibly purchasing a mechanical keyboard. I like the feel of the non-mechanical KeyTronic that I use at work, so I was wondering if there is a mechanical keyboard that has a similar feel? I am willing to buy used if I have to. Is there anyone who has used both Keytronics and mechanicals who knows of mechanicals with a similar feel? Also, I prefer a black color.

Thanks!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 12 July 2010, 16:45:23
The keyboard most similar to the feel of a Keytronic would be a Topre. They're also the most expensive ones on the market...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 13 July 2010, 07:52:02
Quote from: ch_123;202053
The keyboard most similar to the feel of a Keytronic would be a Topre. They're also the most expensive ones on the market...

Hmm interesting...is the general consensus here that they're worth the price? Has anyone bought one and regretted it? (It seems from reading the posts that others have regretted other expensive boards, like the HHKB Pro). I'm not sure if I can justify spending that much. I just liked the idea of a keyboard that has the feel and response of a Keytronic but with higher-quality switches. Does anything exist like that (lower priced than the Topre)?

Edit:
Also, is anyone familiar with the KeyTronic CLASSIC-U2 (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=keytronic+++%09+CLASSIC-U2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=13116336170500247560&ei=lA87TMHMB8O78ga118WnBg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q8wIwAg#) keyboard? I thought Keytronic's weren't mechanical but this one says it's 'factory tested to withstand 20 million key presses'. I thought only mechanical switch keyboards were rated this high?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 13 July 2010, 09:47:59
Quote from: keyboardlover;202217
Hmm interesting...is the general consensus here that they're worth the price?


No. There's general consensus here they're excellent keyboards. There's certainly no consensus they're worth the price.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 13 July 2010, 09:55:58
Any debate on whether Topres are worth the money tends to evolve around a metaphysical debate on what it means for something to be 'worth the money'

I'll put it like this. I paid 100 euros inc shipping for a second hand HHKB. It's arguably my single favorite keyboard, but that is as much to do with the features of the keyboard moreso than the Topre switches, although I like the Topres nonetheless.

I wouldnt pay $200+ for a Topre keyboard in a regular layout. I'd pull full price for a HHKB because I like it so much, but I'm not sure whether it is objectively worth $250 or whatever a new one costs. Hard to say really.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 13 July 2010, 10:19:32
Quote from: ch_123;202243
Any debate on whether Topres are worth the money tends to evolve around a metaphysical debate on what it means for something to be 'worth the money'

I'll put it like this. I paid 100 euros inc shipping for a second hand HHKB. It's arguably my single favorite keyboard, but that is as much to do with the features of the keyboard moreso than the Topre switches, although I like the Topres nonetheless.

I wouldnt pay $200+ for a Topre keyboard in a regular layout. I'd pull full price for a HHKB because I like it so much, but I'm not sure whether it is objectively worth $250 or whatever a new one costs. Hard to say really.


Interesting...I guess right now I just can't quite justify paying a lot for a computer keyboard. I found the Dell AT101W interesting so I ordered one off ebay. I guess if I don't like it I'll get a Keytronic for home (and maybe in the future when I have more $ a Topre or Filco).

I have a Unicomp, but I find the buckling springs to be too loud and an HHKB Lite which is nice but too small for everyday use. Since I like my Keytronic at work, hopefully I'll find something of a little higher quality that is somewhat similar (or better in ways I never thought of). I guess I'm on the hunt for the perfect keyboard :D
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Tue, 13 July 2010, 11:47:14
IMHO the AT101W is similar to the Key Tronic in "weight" - they're both pretty light to type on. The Key Tronic does have a more pronounced tactility, though.

I think if you're looking for something similar to Key Tronic for a reasonable price, and the AT101 isn't to your liking, I'd try and get a new ($60) or second hand (probably very cheap) Key Tronic designer.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 13 July 2010, 12:36:40
Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;202264
IMHO the AT101W is similar to the Key Tronic in "weight" - they're both pretty light to type on. The Key Tronic does have a more pronounced tactility, though.

I think if you're looking for something similar to Key Tronic for a reasonable price, and the AT101 isn't to your liking, I'd try and get a new ($60) or second hand (probably very cheap) Key Tronic designer.


Ok cool...that's helpful info. I think I might get a cheap Compaq MX 11800 too just to see if I like Cherry Brown's (I know they take way less force than the AT101W but who knows)...the addiction has started :P
Title: Logitech Internet Navigator
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 07:49:27
Have anyone ever heard of the Logitech Internet Navigator keyboard (http://www.compuvisor.com/loinnake96.html)? I've had one of these for like 10 years or so. It's really nice to type on (feels somewhat similar to a KeyTronic, so I suspect it's a high quality rubber membrane). But I was just curious if anyone's familiar with this board and knows exactly what kind of switches it has.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Parabellum on Wed, 14 July 2010, 09:08:19
The Internet Navigator is a blatant rubber-dome.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 14 July 2010, 09:42:02
Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;202264
IMHO the AT101W is similar to the Key Tronic in "weight" - they're both pretty light to type on. The Key Tronic does have a more pronounced tactility, though.

I think if you're looking for something similar to Key Tronic for a reasonable price, and the AT101 isn't to your liking, I'd try and get a new ($60) or second hand (probably very cheap) Key Tronic designer.

Maybe I type strangely, but I've always found the AT101 to be among the 'heaviest' keyboards to type on. Those black ALPS switches have a nasty increase in resistance if you don't hit them exactly on-center.

On the other hand, I would recommend trying a Scorpius M10, and see how well you like the Cherry blue switches.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 09:48:18
Quote from: timw4mail;202575
On the other hand, I would recommend trying a Scorpius M10, and see how well you like the Cherry blue switches.


Hmm but aren't those supposed to be really loud? How does the volume compare to a KeyTronic?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 14 July 2010, 09:52:04
Quote from: keyboardlover;202579
Hmm but aren't those supposed to be really loud? How does the volume compare to a KeyTronic?

Well, they are louder than a keytronic, but a lot quieter than a Model M. I use one at work and haven't had any complaints.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 09:54:22
Quote from: timw4mail;202582
Well, they are louder than a keytronic, but a lot quieter than a Model M. I use one at work and haven't had any complaints.


Interesting...I may get one. Any idea how the volume compares to white clicky ALPS?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 14 July 2010, 09:56:38
Quote from: keyboardlover;202584
Interesting...I may get one. Any idea how the volume compares to white clicky ALPS?

Depends on the keyboard, but generally, quieter.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 14 July 2010, 11:43:34
You'd be better off just getting another Keytronic. They're good keyboards.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 11:50:06
Quote from: microsoft windows;202630
You'd be better off just getting another Keytronic. They're good keyboards.


I may end up doing that...I mainly started this thread because I was wondering if there was a higher quality keyboard with the same type of feel. I'm willing to try a couple cheap mechanicals before I decide, but I can't afford a Topre atm :P
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 14 July 2010, 12:16:06
Quote from: keyboardlover;202633
I may end up doing that...I mainly started this thread because I was wondering if there was a higher quality keyboard with the same type of feel. I'm willing to try a couple cheap mechanicals before I decide, but I can't afford a Topre atm :P

Don't listen to him... Rubber domes just won't do once you've gone mechanical.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 14 July 2010, 12:23:48
Quote from: timw4mail;202640
Don't listen to him... Rubber domes just won't do once you've gone mechanical.


kind of like how you cant go back to greco-roman paganism once you've gone christian?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 12:51:59
Quote from: timw4mail;202640
Don't listen to him... Rubber domes just won't do once you've gone mechanical.


Hmm maybe...I'm not in love with my buckling spring so we'll see how I like my Dell AT101W and Compaq MX11800 (currently on their way to my door) :D
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 13:26:36
Quote from: wellington1869;202645
kind of like how you cant go back to greco-roman paganism once you've gone christian?


LOL - if that's the way it is I'm going mechanical baby!!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 14 July 2010, 14:12:27
Quote from: keyboardlover;202657
LOL - if that's the way it is I'm going mechanical baby!!


;) I rather like my sprites and pixies ;)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 14 July 2010, 14:36:40
Quote from: wellington1869;202670
;) I rather like my sprites and pixies ;)


Hmm...I prefer Cokes to Sprites ;)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Wed, 14 July 2010, 15:47:42
Quote from: keyboardlover;202633
I may end up doing that...I mainly started this thread because I was wondering if there was a higher quality keyboard with the same type of feel. I'm willing to try a couple cheap mechanicals before I decide, but I can't afford a Topre atm :P


Topres aren't mechanical. They're just rubber domes and springs.
Title: Dell AT101W
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 26 July 2010, 11:46:50
So far I'm liking the Dell AT101W I ordered a lot. I was surprised that the keys didn't require as much force as I assumed they would, from looking at the switch diagram. Seems to be a solid board overall.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 26 July 2010, 11:54:29
It's not a horrible 'board at all, especially at the price.  Glad you like it.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 26 July 2010, 12:22:27
Quote from: itlnstln;206620
It's not a horrible 'board at all, especially at the price.  Glad you like it.


i thought you were talking about geekhack
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 26 July 2010, 12:26:18
Quote from: wellington1869;206630
i thought you were talking about geekhack


Lol yea, and the price being trolls like myself ;)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 26 July 2010, 12:28:23
Quote from: wellington1869;206630
i thought you were talking about geekhack

Trust me.  I have paid the price.

I roughly added up all the keyboards I have bought since joining GH, and it came out to over $1000.  My HHKB + RF 23U alone was about $400.  I can't imagine how much Webwit has spent.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 26 July 2010, 13:05:19
Quote from: microsoft windows;202699
Topres aren't mechanical. They're just rubber domes and springs.


They have metal springs. They are mechanical.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 27 July 2010, 17:40:54
Quote from: itlnstln;206634
Trust me.  I have paid the price.

I roughly added up all the keyboards I have bought since joining GH, and it came out to over $1000.  My HHKB + RF 23U alone was about $400.  I can't imagine how much Webwit has spent.


Yeah, I'm getting up to that point too... and I've only really been lurking here since the begining of the summer :P
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 27 July 2010, 17:54:57
Quote from: keyboardlover;206618
So far I'm liking the Dell AT101W I ordered a lot. I was surprised that the keys didn't require as much force as I assumed they would, from looking at the switch diagram. Seems to be a solid board overall.


I was not so lucky in the sense that mine required that I pressed on the keys right in the middle. Pressing the keys right in the middle was great, but if I did not, they did not feel great.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 27 July 2010, 17:57:01
Quote from: itlnstln;206634

I roughly added up all the keyboards I have bought since joining GH, and it came out to over $1000.  My HHKB + RF 23U alone was about $400.  I can't imagine how much Webwit has spent.


I'm close to that amount. My Topre was what got me close to it. This is why I sometimes don't want to think about how much I spent on keyboards. Fountain pens, stationery and italic handwriting books were the ones which hit me hard in 2010. I guess there is always something to spend money on.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 28 July 2010, 08:38:27
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;206915
I'm close to that amount. My Topre was what got me close to it. This is why I sometimes don't want to think about how much I spent on keyboards. Fountain pens, stationery and italic handwriting books were the ones which hit me hard in 2010. I guess there is always something to spend money on.


This is what I'm trying to avoid. I like the information that I can get and share on this board, but I don't want to get to the point where I'm spending crazy amounts of $ on keyboards. Not that I think what you guys have done is bad (and arguably I'm sure you have a much more sublime typing experience than myself).
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: gr1m on Thu, 29 July 2010, 03:30:02
Quote from: keyboardlover;207074
This is what I'm trying to avoid. I like the information that I can get and share on this board, but I don't want to get to the point where I'm spending crazy amounts of $ on keyboards. Not that I think what you guys have done is bad (and arguably I'm sure you have a much more sublime typing experience than myself).


Well, you can easily avoid it (from my experience). I joined Head-Fi to get information on what headphones to buy. I figured that since so many people got sucked into audiophilia very fast, I would have to be gone really quickly. But I actually lurked for a while, decided what headphones to buy and have been happy with those headphones for about a year with no desire to either go back to Head-Fi or buy more headphones.

I guess I could say the same about Geekhack so far. After my advice thread worked out and I got my hands on the keyboard I wanted (with some common sense sprinkled into the advice, such as me deciding for myself that no matter how many Geekhackers tell me that spending $200 on a keyboard is a good idea, I will not spend $200 on a keyboard), I have no desire for different keyboards, especially after reading people's opinions on them.

Sorry for the long post.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 29 July 2010, 07:41:21
Quote from: keyboardlover;207074
This is what I'm trying to avoid. I like the information that I can get and share on this board, but I don't want to get to the point where I'm spending crazy amounts of $ on keyboards. Not that I think what you guys have done is bad (and arguably I'm sure you have a much more sublime typing experience than myself).

This is an easier thing to do for some than for others. I ended up wanting to try lighter and lighter switches. I moved from Buckling Spring to Black Alps, Blue Cherry to Brown Cherry to Topre.

EDIT: Had I bought a blue Cherry keyboard first, I would probably have stayed with just one keyboard. That being said, I'm happy that I don't regret having bought any of my keyboards.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 29 July 2010, 07:48:22
I know I always say this, but now that I have a Realforce, I don't think that I will be buying anymore keyboards any time soon.  Since lowpoly's project is shelved, and there's not really anything interesting coming down the pike, I don't think I will be temped by much.  I think it might be time for a little collection purge (G80-3000, MX SPOS, RF numpad).  I'll have to list those after I get back from Chicago.

Like patrick said, it's easier transition down in weight gradually.  Jumping from BS to Cherry browns is a tough transition.  I didn't really like Cherry browns going from ALPS.  After I used them for awhile, though, they became my favorite switch.  Now, I'm digging the Topres which are a little lighter than the Cherry browns (on some keys).
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 29 July 2010, 07:54:51
Quote from: gr1m;207418
I guess I could say the same about Geekhack so far. After my advice thread worked out and I got my hands on the keyboard I wanted (with some common sense sprinkled into the advice, such as me deciding for myself that no matter how many Geekhackers tell me that spending $200 on a keyboard is a good idea, I will not spend $200 on a keyboard), I have no desire for different keyboards, especially after reading people's opinions on them.
Sorry for the long post.


No problem; that's kind of how I am. However, I'm getting curious to try a blue cherry board, and I wish there was a common, inexpensive and well-made one that could be picked up on ebay cheap (like my MX11800 and AT101W). But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;207447
This is an easier thing to do for some than for others. I ended up wanting to try lighter and lighter switches. I moved from Buckling Spring to Black Alps, Blue Cherry to Brown Cherry to Topre.

EDIT: Had I bought a blue Cherry keyboard first, I would probably have stayed with just one keyboard. That being said, I'm happy that I don't regret having bought any of my keyboards.


That's interesting and makes me want to try blue cherry even more... :P
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 29 July 2010, 08:05:49
Quote from: itlnstln;207451
I know I always say this, but now that I have a Realforce, I don't think that I will be buying anymore keyboards any time soon.  Since lowpoly's project is shelved, and there's not really anything interesting coming down the pike, I don't think I will be temped by much.  I think it might be time for a little collection purge (G80-3000, MX SPOS, RF numpad).  I'll have to list those after I get back from Chicago.

So you got a RF 103UB? It's a nice keyboard, isn't it? Good feel and low noise level. Perfect for the time when I need to be quiet.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 29 July 2010, 08:11:22
Quote from: keyboardlover;207454
No problem; that's kind of how I am. However, I'm getting curious to try a blue cherry board, and I wish there was a common, inexpensive and well-made one that could be picked up on ebay cheap (like my MX11800 and AT101W). But that doesn't seem to be the case.

That's interesting and makes me want to try blue cherry even more... :P


Unfortunately, I don't think blue Cherry keyboard can be had for cheap on eBay. Some don't like the blue Cherry switches, but I think it's a good combination of click and "low" noise level. The noise level is lower than the Buckling spring and ALPS switches. Simplified clicky ALPS can be loud. Yet, the tactile bump and the click are very noticeable. I always thought that my blue Cherry board would bother my colleagues, but I guess I was more worried than them. I asked them if the click bothers them, but they said no. I think the answer would have been very different if I was using my Customizer :-)

All in all, it's very hard to tell whether one will like any switch until one tries it.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 29 July 2010, 08:46:04
Quote from: itlnstln;207451
I know I always say this, but now that I have a Realforce, I don't think that I will be buying anymore keyboards any time soon.  Since lowpoly's project is shelved, and there's not really anything interesting coming down the pike, I don't think I will be temped by much.  I think it might be time for a little collection purge (G80-3000, MX SPOS, RF numpad).  I'll have to list those after I get back from Chicago.

Like patrick said, it's easier transition down in weight gradually.  Jumping from BS to Cherry browns is a tough transition.  I didn't really like Cherry browns going from ALPS.  After I used them for awhile, though, they became my favorite switch.  Now, I'm digging the Topres which are a little lighter than the Cherry browns (on some keys).


For me I can easily jump between the browns and bs, and not bottom out much on the browns, but going from any keyboard to the simplified alps on the ghss is hell....(I think this might mean I really just dont like the switches :P)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 29 July 2010, 08:49:14
Not to deride didja's efforts, but I personally think ALPS are pretty mediocre.  That said, small form-factor mechanicals are hard to come by, and you have to take what you can get.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 29 July 2010, 09:21:05
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;206914
I was not so lucky in the sense that mine required that I pressed on the keys right in the middle. Pressing the keys right in the middle was great, but if I did not, they did not feel great.


I've just started to notice this too. I'm going to try switching to my MX11800 and using that for a few days so I can see the difference between switches. If you hit the keys slightly off-center they won't press down :(
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 29 July 2010, 10:35:43
Quote from: keyboardlover;207474
I've just started to notice this too. I'm going to try switching to my MX11800 and using that for a few days so I can see the difference between switches. If you hit the keys slightly off-center they won't press down :(
 
As I was just educated about this in this thread: suggestions for Blue Cherry MX? (Last but not Least) (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10877) (don't mind the people having a bad day, the info was still discussed in some  detail) apparently the Cherry blues are designed to transfer force from  off-center key presses to avoid this specific issue.  I am assuming this also applies to the other MX switches as well?

And as to consulting here to avoid spending $ ... This did not work for me.  Who's sig says that about not helping you save $, but just make you feel better about the $ you spend? That was more appropriate.  Its odd how quickly I became obsessed with finding the perfect switch.  I never figured myself to be a person who would end up hoarding a bunch of computer keyboards - many of them over 15 years old.   To be fair though, it did take me about 4 tries to get the right model M  in the beginning.  Sellers at ebay have no clue how to ship one of those things without the thing getting bashed to hell on journey.  I had one arrive that looked like the package had been used as a wheel stop on a steep hill.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: gr1m on Thu, 29 July 2010, 10:39:26
Quote from: Voixdelion;207488
As I was just educated about this in this thread: suggestions for Blue Cherry MX? (Last but not Least) (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10877) (don't mind the people having a bad day, the info was still discussed in some  detail) apparently the Cherry blues are designed to transfer force from  off-center key presses to avoid this specific issue.  I am assuming this also applies to the other MX switches as well?


I think so. On my Cherry Black keyboard, all of the keys could be hit from any extreme angle and be depressed smoothly except for one which would catch, and that single switch was broken and I returned the keyboard.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 29 July 2010, 10:43:24
I have never had any issues with off-center key presses with any of my Cherry brown 'boards.  Cherry MLs suck for off-center response, though.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 29 July 2010, 10:54:51
Does anyone know of a way to fix that issue on the AT101W? Would the only way be to swap out the switches? (Dunno if that's even possible).
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 29 July 2010, 11:06:09
It's just the nature of ALPS.  There's really nothing you can do.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 29 July 2010, 12:31:55
Sadly, I passed the $1000 about 2 months ago.

For me, I like to have a different kind of switch depending on what I'm doing and the mood I'm in.

The lighter and smooth switches are nice for gaming: Reds, MYs, 30g Topre

The light and/or tactile are nice for documentation/general writing: Reds, 30g Topre, 45g Topre, Browns, ALPs (haven't used my ALPs board long enough to firmly place it with a task yet)

Heavier and/or high tactile are nice for *nix terminal environments and coding: BS, 45g Topre, MYs


I still need to pick up an MX Blue and Black though, perhaps an MX White and 55g Topre as well. That won't be for a while though.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 29 July 2010, 12:54:20
Quote from: itlnstln;207493
I have never had any issues with off-center key presses with any of my Cherry brown 'boards.  Cherry MLs suck for off-center response, though.


I have never had any problem of that nature with my Cherry keyboard either. Interestingly, I think this problem exist with real ALPS. My ABS M1 does not seem to suffer this kind of problem either.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: BigDeuce on Thu, 29 July 2010, 15:44:52
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;207531
I have never had any problem of that nature with my Cherry keyboard either. Interestingly, I think this problem exist with real ALPS. My ABS M1 does not seem to suffer this kind of problem either.


Quote from: itlnstln;207493
I have never had any issues with off-center key presses with any of my Cherry brown 'boards.  Cherry MLs suck for off-center response, though.


New member, first time poster, newly addicted key-switch seeker.

I have noticed this very issue with my 2 newest keyboards: a Dell AT101W and a Cherry G84-4100. I guess that I wasn't paying attention to the format of the Cherry board before I purchased, tiny keys and my monster paws don't jive. I believe this board has the ML switches you mentioned, and they do in fact bind when not pressed on center. Disappointed all the way around with that board.

On the prowl for a Cherry brown flavored board now. Close to pulling the trigger on a Filco tenkeyless.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 29 July 2010, 15:54:10
Quote from: BigDeuce;207594
I have noticed this very issue with my 2 newest keyboards: a Dell AT101W and a Cherry G84-4100. I guess that I wasn't paying attention to the format of the Cherry board before I purchased, tiny keys and my monster paws don't jive. I believe this board has the ML switches you mentioned, and they do in fact bind when not pressed on center. Disappointed all the way around with that board.


I see you're 2 for 2; is that why your name is Big Deuce?

Anyway, welcome to Geekhack!  Grab that Filco, it's a nice 'board.


"Big Deuce."  That makes me chuckle.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 29 July 2010, 16:00:30
Quote from: itlnstln;207598
"Big Deuce."  That makes me chuckle.


Glad I wasn't the only one who LOLed at that :D
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 29 July 2010, 20:04:57
Quote from: BigDeuce;207594
New member, first time poster, newly addicted key-switch seeker.

Greetings, seeker! but be forewarned...
 
BEWARE!! BEWARE, I SAY!!!

Sure you come here, looking for good research info to make a good choice so you don't end up wasting money but it only gets worse the more info you get.  Each thing seems intriguing with the depth of detail about every single switch and its variants, and then you realize that the only way to KNOW is to try em out.   When I made the decision to buy a Model M I thought I was choosing between 3 potential keyboards tops only now I've been hemorrhaging cash for keyboards ever since I signed up only a few months ago.   Not that I consider that money wasted by any stretch of the imagination, but I just did a little inventory check here and it has GOT to stop or I'm going to have to apply a tourniquet on the Paypal account.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 29 July 2010, 20:15:34
Quote from: Voixdelion;207682
Greetings, seeker! but be forewarned...
 
BEWARE!! BEWARE, I SAY!!!

Sure you come here, looking for good research info to make a good choice so you don't end up wasting money but it only gets worse the more info you get.  Each thing seems intriguing with the depth of detail about every single switch and its variants, and then you realize that the only way to KNOW is to try em out.   When I made the decision to buy a Model M I thought I was choosing between 3 potential keyboards tops only now I've been hemorrhaging cash for keyboards ever since I signed up only a few months ago.   Not that I consider that money wasted by any stretch of the imagination, but I just did a little inventory check here and it has GOT to stop or I'm going to have to apply a tourniquet on the Paypal account.

I was in the exact same situation as you. I stumbled on article on the Das. I wanted to have some reviews before I spent a big sum of money on a keyboard. Then I learned about buckling spring, that everyone should at least try one of them once. Then, this forum lifted the veil on a whole new world that I never knew existed: buckling spring, Cherry Blue, Cherry Brown, ALPS Black, ALPS white, Topre... And like you said, the only way to know is to try them out. In the process, I realised that I liked lighter switches more than heavier ones, but I do like heavier ones from time to time. Again, like you said, I don't consider the money I spent as money wasted, even if sometimes it's depressing to consider the total amount.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 30 July 2010, 07:10:23
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;207684
I was in the exact same situation as you. I stumbled on article on the Das. I wanted to have some reviews before I spent a big sum of money on a keyboard. Then I learned about buckling spring, that everyone should at least try one of them once. Then, this forum lifted the veil on a whole new world that I never knew existed: buckling spring, Cherry Blue, Cherry Brown, ALPS Black, ALPS white, Topre... And like you said, the only way to know is to try them out. In the process, I realised that I liked lighter switches more than heavier ones, but I do like heavier ones from time to time. Again, like you said, I don't consider the money I spent as money wasted, even if sometimes it's depressing to consider the total amount.


I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once. So in the meantime, I can decide if it's really worth it and which exact one I want. In the meantime, I'm happy with my cheap-o boards :P
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 30 July 2010, 07:23:31
Quote from: keyboardlover;207765
I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once.


Yeah, right.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 30 July 2010, 07:28:59
Quote from: keyboardlover;207765
I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once. So in the meantime, I can decide if it's really worth it and which exact one I want. In the meantime, I'm happy with my cheap-o boards :P

If you are torn between two keyboards, buy the one you really want even if it's more expensive. Trust me, if you don't, you'll end up buying both.

I don't want to scare you, but you seem to be in big troube. You've stayed here for too long :-)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 30 July 2010, 07:45:18
Hehe well I've limited myself to not buy any other boards for several months at least so we'll see. I tried typing again on the AT101W yesterday and it wasn't as bad as I remembered - only a few keys cause issues. I guess this is something you could get used to by training yourself to always hit certain keys at a direct angle. I must say though, the tenkeyless Filco is very intriguing... :D
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 30 July 2010, 20:30:36
Quote from: keyboardlover;207765
I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once. So in the meantime, I can decide if it's really worth it and which exact one I want. In the meantime, I'm happy with my cheap-o boards :P

Quote from: itlnstln;207767
Yeah, right.

- I chuckled (ruefully) at that one, too.


Quote from: keyboardlover;207773
Hehe well I've limited myself to not buy any other boards for several months at least so we'll see. I tried typing again on the AT101W yesterday and it wasn't as bad as I remembered - only a few keys cause issues. I guess this is something you could get used to by training yourself to always hit certain keys at a direct angle. I must say though, the tenkeyless Filco is very intriguing... :D
this:
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;207769

 I don't want to scare you, but you seem to be in big troube. You've  stayed here for too long :-)

Oh yeah - classic symptoms of the virus.  All's I can say is... You have been warned
heh, heh, heh....
:laugh:  

Just thinking about 3 months from now how we'll all look back on this and laaaaauuuugh!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 31 July 2010, 14:20:25
Lolz...well I'm typing on my AT101W again and it's better than I remembered. It's true that hitting some of the keys indirectly doesn't result in a keypress but it's not too bad if you're already a touch-typist. Overall I like it but I'm still interested to try the MX11800 for a couple days. Not saying I won't end up getting a Filco or Topre one day but for now I think I'm happy with these two haha
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 31 July 2010, 14:55:02
Quote from: keyboardlover;208034
Lolz...well I'm typing on my AT101W again and it's better than I remembered. It's true that hitting some of the keys indirectly doesn't result in a keypress but it's not too bad if you're already a touch-typist. Overall I like it but I'm still interested to try the MX11800 for a couple days. Not saying I won't end up getting a Filco or Topre one day but for now I think I'm happy with these two haha


The AT101W can provide a wondeful typing experience if one can type right in the middle. I was able to do so only if I used the legs to raise the keyboard. But, unfortunately, when raising the keyboard was not very comfortable when I used a keyboard tray.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sat, 31 July 2010, 15:09:05
Agreed the Dell is much nicer than I thought.  I am using mine now too, since the M is a little too much exercise for me right now.  I still get a little bind here and there, and seem to type "teh" alot instead of "the" though.  I was surprised to discover how much I like the black non-clicky Alps.  Though they still click because I tend to bottom out the keystroke after typing on the M.

And I just picked up the M$ wireless mushboard I was using previously to return it to my BF -PERMANENTLY if you please.  When handing it to him, I touched one of the keys by accident....Oh the Horror!  (*shudder*)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 02 August 2010, 09:30:14
Quote from: Voixdelion;208040
Agreed the Dell is much nicer than I thought.  I am using mine now too, since the M is a little too much exercise for me right now.  I still get a little bind here and there, and seem to type "teh" alot instead of "the" though.  I was surprised to discover how much I like the black non-clicky Alps.  Though they still click because I tend to bottom out the keystroke after typing on the M.


I noticed the clicking the other day when I switched to my MX11800 for the better part of the day. Although I liked the cherry browns to some degree I found myself wishing for the feel of the Dell again. Which confuses me, because in the wiki Black Alps and Cherry Browns are both listed under 'Tactile and Non-clicky'. I don't think this is true - the Alps definitely have a 'click'.

Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels? I'm a bit confused...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 02 August 2010, 10:11:58
Quote from: ripster;208378
From the "Mechanical Keyboards Sorted By Switch Wiki":
Your Unicomp Customizer for example clicks when you depress the switch slowly.
Any Cherry MX switch is smoother than an ALPS.  ALPS are pretty raggedy.


Ok that's more clear...so by that then it seems what I'm really looking for in a mechanical switch would be closer to Clear Cherry or Topre?
Title: Clarification of terminology
Post by: Voixdelion on Tue, 03 August 2010, 02:26:39
Quote from: keyboardlover;208376
I noticed the clicking the other day when I switched to my MX11800 for the better part of the day. Although I liked the cherry browns to some degree I found myself wishing for the feel of the Dell again. Which confuses me, because in the wiki Black Alps and Cherry Browns are both listed under 'Tactile and Non-clicky'. I don't think this is true - the Alps definitely have a 'click'.

Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels? I'm a bit confused...

Quote from: ripster;208378

Any Cherry MX switch is smoother than an ALPS.  ALPS are pretty raggedy.

Quote from: keyboardlover;208383
Ok that's more clear...so by that then it seems what I'm really looking for in a mechanical switch would be closer to Clear Cherry or Topre?

Ok - I got totally lost on that exchange, and if I'm to give any meaningful report of what I discover in my various experiments next week, I'll need to clarify terms.   If any Cherry switch is "smoother" than an Alps, but the "feel" of the Alps is preferred over said Cherries, then : Could you please clarify which part of the keypress that you are referring to when you say you like the "feel" of the Dell  - do you mean how hard you have to push the key to actuate, how far it travels in total distance or... ?  And by "smoother" do you mean in terms of friction as the key depresses or do you mean less tactile bump than even the Dell?  If the latter then you may want a LINEAR switch (which is what the Topre does have, yes?) without a bump at all?  If so then you may want Cherry BLACK switches (no bump, no click), but these require higher actuation force (I've read).  

Does ALPS have a linear switch?  (I've never even researched that.  For myself, I was only interested in clicky boards, hence my surprise about liking the Dell AT101W at all, but then again, I guess it hasn't gone up against the big guns yet either.  ANYTHING is an improvement over the plastic toys that are generally available...)

Does key "stiffness" mean the opposite of "smoothness"?  Could it (in theory) be addressed by some kind of lubricant to ease  friction increasing "smoothness" or is this in reference to how much force is required to initiate actuation or what?

Aside: Why is spell check underlining "clicky"?  How does "cl icky" make the dictionary and not that? or for that matter "cl-icky" and not "click-y"? Wtf? So before I hit "Add to dictionary," should it be "clicky" or "clickey" (or should it be "click-y" or "click-ey")?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 03 August 2010, 07:04:57
Quote from: Voixdelion;208622
Ok - I got totally lost on that exchange, and if I'm to give any meaningful report of what I discover in my various experiments next week, I'll need to clarify terms.   If any Cherry switch is "smoother" than an Alps, but the "feel" of the Alps is preferred over said Cherries, then : Could you please clarify which part of the keypress that you are referring to when you say you like the "feel" of the Dell  - do you mean how hard you have to push the key to actuate, how far it travels in total distance or... ?  And by "smoother" do you mean in terms of friction as the key depresses or do you mean less tactile bump than even the Dell?  If the latter then you may want a LINEAR switch (which is what the Topre does have, yes?) without a bump at all?  If so then you may want Cherry BLACK switches (no bump, no click), but these require higher actuation force (I've read).  


I think I mean in terms of friction as the key depresses - the only thing I don't like is how if you don't hit the switch right in the middle, it won't depress completely. But I like the sound it makes - the 'thack' when it bottoms out and the (I dunno...'click'?) as it comes back up after being pressed.

Quote

Does ALPS have a linear switch?  (I've never even researched that.  For myself, I was only interested in clicky boards, hence my surprise about liking the Dell AT101W at all, but then again, I guess it hasn't gone up against the big guns yet either.  ANYTHING is an improvement over the plastic toys that are generally available...)


No clue...I'd like to know though.

Quote

Does key "stiffness" mean the opposite of "smoothness"?  Could it (in theory) be addressed by some kind of lubricant to ease  friction increasing "smoothness" or is this in reference to how much force is required to initiate actuation or what?


I dunno, that wasn't mentioned by anyone else in this post. I'm willing to try it if someone can recommend something.

Quote

Aside: Why is spell check underlining "clicky"?  How does "cl icky" make the dictionary and not that? or for that matter "cl-icky" and not "click-y"? Wtf? So before I hit "Add to dictionary," should it be "clicky" or "clickey" (or should it be "click-y" or "click-ey")?


Lol...I dunno but for future cases, you should right click on 'clicky' and click 'add word'. That way you can add it to the dictionary yourself :D
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 03 August 2010, 07:21:16
Quote
I noticed the clicking the other day when I switched to my MX11800 for the better part of the day. Although I liked the cherry browns to some degree I found myself wishing for the feel of the Dell again. Which confuses me, because in the wiki Black Alps and Cherry Browns are both listed under 'Tactile and Non-clicky'. I don't think this is true - the Alps definitely have a 'click'.


They are not clicky. The noise is made by bottoming out.

Quote
Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels? I'm a bit confused...


Maybe Brown/Clear Cherry switches.

Quote
If the latter then you may want a LINEAR switch (which is what the Topre does have, yes?)


No, Topres are tactile.

Quote
Does ALPS have a linear switch?  (I've never even researched that.  For myself, I was only interested in clicky boards, hence my surprise about liking the Dell AT101W at all, but then again, I guess it hasn't gone up against the big guns yet either.  ANYTHING is an improvement over the plastic toys that are generally available...)


Yes. Yellows and Greens. You can make a rough approximation them by removing the leaf from a click/tactile switch.

Quote
Does key "stiffness" mean the opposite of "smoothness"?  Could it (in theory) be addressed by some kind of lubricant to ease  friction increasing "smoothness" or is this in reference to how much force is required to initiate actuation or what?


No stiffness is the amount of force required to depress the key. Smoothness is... well, how smooth the action of the switch is. Alps and Cherrys are relatively un-smooth compared to Topres or Buckling Springs.

Quote
Aside: Why is spell check underlining "clicky"?  How does "cl icky" make the dictionary and not that? or for that matter "cl-icky" and not "click-y"? Wtf? So before I hit "Add to dictionary," should it be "clicky" or "clickey" (or should it be "click-y" or "click-ey")?


Manufacturers usually refer to them as snap action or click action =P
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Tue, 03 August 2010, 09:50:00
Interesting how one can learn so much here, even from threads that don't seem to fit what you might be interested in directly...  Perhaps this is the reason for the need to try so many switches too as sometimes the direct  comparisons are only between switches of similar type.  Maybe if enough data is gathered one CAN actually get an idea of what we're looking for (without spending a fortune!) if we've tried the right combination of boards and have the right reference points for comparison.  

Quote from: ch_123;208651


Maybe Brown/Clear Cherry switches.

 
Alps and Cherrys are relatively un-smooth compared to Topres or Buckling  Springs.




If the above is a correct example of what you mean in terms of smooth, then I think that perhaps the Topre would indeed be what you are seeking, since I would agree with this being true of the BS vs ALPS, and I'm guessing that lack of smoothness comes from the sliding nature of the mechanisms in the Cherry/Alps switch vs the open space and lack of friction in the BS. (Topre is a frictionless mechanism too, yes?)  Using that as a guide for the definition of "smooth", then my own impressions are that the Model Fs (both xt and at) are smoother than the model Ms which are slightly smoother than the white Alps which are slightly smoother than the black Alps.  REALLY curious now about how the Blue MX will stack up in that given what was said about the MX's being designed with the off-center issue in mind.

Given this info, plus the fact that you've tried the Browns and seem to  prefer the Dells black alps minus the bind from off-center keypresses,  I'm inclined to think that maybe a blue MX board is in order for you, too.   I'll have mine maybe today, so I can let you know how I would compare it  to the Dell at any rate.  But though I have noticed a slight friction, I  haven't had too much trouble with the off-center issue actually  impeding actuation of the keys.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 03 August 2010, 09:55:21
Quote from: Voixdelion;208685

If the above is a correct example of what you mean in terms of smooth, then I think that perhaps the Topre would indeed be what you are seeking, since I would agree with this being true of the BS vs ALPS, and I'm guessing that lack of smoothness comes from the sliding nature of the mechanisms in the Cherry/Alps switch vs the open space and lack of friction in the BS.


That's what I'm thinking at this point too. I'm thinking it might be about time to change that big coffee can of quarters in my room into cash for a keyboard splurge. Never thought I'd say that, but if it's the last $100+ keyboard I buy then it's worth it.

Quote

Given this info, plus the fact that you've tried the Browns and seem to  prefer the Dells black alps minus the bind from off-center keypresses,  I'm inclined to think that maybe a blue MX board is in order for you, too.   I'll have mine maybe today, so I can let you know how I would compare it  to the Dell at any rate.


Cool, I'm interested to hear your feedback on the blue then since you seem to understand pretty well what I'm going for. This board rocks, very helpful =)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Tue, 03 August 2010, 10:06:52
Quote from: keyboardlover;208688
That's what I'm thinking at this point too. I'm thinking it might be about time to change that big coffee can of quarters in my room into cash for a keyboard splurge. Never thought I'd say that, but if it's the last $100+ keyboard I buy then it's worth it.



Cool, I'm interested to hear your feedback on the blue then since you seem to understand pretty well what I'm going for. This board rocks, very helpful =)


LOL!  Yep - and that didn't even take the 3 months to look back and Laaaaauugh!  

I'll let you know how it compares as soon as it arrives - with any luck you'll find the sweet spot with a little less trial and error...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 03 August 2010, 19:37:11
Quote from: Voixdelion;208690
 

I'll let you know how it compares as soon as it arrives - with any luck you'll find the sweet spot with a little less trial and error...

You cannot find your true sweet spot if you have tried them all, can you? Sorry, just a thought. I'm not trying to persuade keyboardlover to buy every keyboard out there :-)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 03 August 2010, 19:58:10
Including this?
(http://www.dvhardware.net/news/logitech_g15_keyboard_5.jpg)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: washuai on Wed, 04 August 2010, 00:50:58
Needs (health, accidents, natural disasters, prioritiesetc.) and desires change, as life changes, so there isn't a definite last keyboard.  Same goes for the whole perfection doesn't exist philosophy.  

In spite of that, good research (the keyboards and one's needs, wants) can result in a safe informed decision that will result in keyboard satisfaction, beyond previous experience.  Some Geekhackers do manage to not have shelves filled with keyboard boxes.
I don't need better than cherry browns and I am more than satisfied, with my first mechanical keyboards.  I screwed up my research in that I didn't realize I need a tenkeyless and I continue to risk injury, until I solve the problem.  However, I was dead on about switch choice.  I'd have bought Topre for work though, if I could justify/afford it.  Thanks to the breadth of information here mainly, I can say that with confidence.
I came to Geekhack, because I wanted to make an informed decision, which I did.  

Although, truly, I think if my priorities and/or means permitted it, I'd own 7 keyboards, be working on DIY keyboards which would bring the total to 9 or 11 and would have gifted quite a few keyboards.  That I suppose makes me just as bad as the rest of you.  Although, even with all those keyboards, it'd be one work 87U, one home Filco Brown Otaku Tactile, one back up Kinesis Advantage or 91U, one portable HHKBP2,  one gaming DIY backlit iced red cherries, one wireless ?, and then it just gets silly.  Curiosity boards (clears, datahand, etc.), more DIY backlight color mechs, the Tron razer, & extra gifts just support mech makers.  I'd probably not really get any of the "silly", because friends, fams, the ocean and giving back to the community would come first.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:02:46
Well there's a good chance I may get a Topre after all. Last night a friend asked me to create a website for his company so I would use the money from that to buy it. This makes sense for me, since it's additional income outside my current job. We'll see what happens, but in the meantime I'm still interested to hear what Voixdelion says about his blues.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:04:29
Quote from: keyboardlover;209028
I'm still interested to hear what Voixdelion says about his blues.


Fatal gender assumptions are fatal.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 04 August 2010, 08:08:18
Quote from: ch_123;209029
Fatal gender assumptions are fatal.


Haha right after I posted that I thought 'Now Voixdelion is going to be like "Hey I'm a girl!"'. Sorry bout that!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 04 August 2010, 10:19:50
Quote from: ch_123;209029
Fatal gender assumptions are fatal.

And redundancy is ...redundant?  (heh heh - jk! couldn't resist...)  

Quote from: keyboardlover;209030
Haha right after I posted that I thought  'Now Voixdelion is going to be like "Hey I'm a girl!"'. Sorry bout  that!

(*Ahem*) Well, truth be told, though I am female, I would have to say that Chad is actually the "girl" in this house. - I, on the other hand, am woman -hear me roar!  LOL

 S'okay, though... everyone else would be doing that too cept I blew my cover a few  weeks ago.  I find it interesting to see what people do so I provide no hints on the profile proper.  

YOU however, get to call me "Goddess of the Running Blues" because I nearly killed myself yesterday, all for the sake of being able to let you know how the blues weigh in...

I had taken the doorbell down to replace batteries and heard some commotion outside in the afternoon - FEDEX!! - and ran to the front door just in time to catch the solid "Thunk" sound of the door being shut and the driver preparing to pull away.  I hollered and set off after him waving my arms, since there was no package that I could see on the way out the door, and I certainly did NOT want to wait until tomorrow to (literally) get my hands on the adesso.  Now, even with two stop signs in a short space away, This guy was totally oblivious to me RUNNING (I do mean, despite the heat and the fact that I do smoke, flat out RUNNING) and waving and hollering as best I could whilst doing the other two.    Please note:  I HATE running.  Especially full tilt like that out of nowhere after sitting on my ass (which still remains perfectly sculpted, though) for 10 years.  It tends to make me feel asthmatic for a day or two when that happens...  

SO THEN at the second stop sign he did the unthinkable horrible thing: he turned right and went UPHILL ...  And on I went... RUNNING!  Up .. the.. . h-..h i ... l.. l .... (which got much steeper than I remembered)  and wasn't sure if...  he was even....  stop . .ped . anywhere near....  or not...  since I couldn't. . .  see . . .  over . . . the rise of .  the.  street.. . .  But I panted at another woman sitting in a car if she'd seen the guy, and she indicated she had (... good?... ) so I trudged on  ...

When I spotted him at the last house on the corner at the top I thought I was about to faint, but pushed on... saw the guy come round the truck and did what I oughta have done to start with... (I have a vocal secret weapon like that dog in the movie "Bolt").. Planted both feet, took a deep breath and ROARED "YO! FEDEX!!" so loudly it startled him.  At least he finally stopped!  (and fortunately the nice lady in the car pulled up and offered me a lift the rest of the way up the hill...)

So the guy digs around in the truck as I waited with my head hung down between my knees gasping for breath, asks the address, and then you know what he tells me?  

He left it at the house in the backyard - just inside the back gate where I had the dog tethered to his doggie run and left it open.   I guess he thought it was for that purpose, though I had forgotten about the gate being open.   SO ... even though I had the thing in my possession now, I hadn't the energy to open it for a good exam anymore...

And here we are!  Me, Goddess of the Running Blues now typing on the newest addition to the household...

More detailed look later, but first impressions are/were mild - now improving though as I adjust to how they feel.  For myself now, I am glad I didn't get the Filco, since the design of the MX switch plus the taller keycaps I think might make that wobble that was talked about a little too much for me.  

As to the specifics against the Dell that we both know, yes, they are smoother to me even right out of the box, though I have read that the Cherries have a "break in" period.  First impression is even that maybe  these blues are actually almost TOO light for me since I almost feel like I have to actively lift up my wrists to keep the weight of my hands from depressing the keys while hovering on the home row.  

More to follow, stay tuned,...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 04 August 2010, 10:29:26
Quote from: Voixdelion;209055

And here we are!  Me, Goddess of the Running Blues now typing on the newest addition to the household...

More detailed look later, but first impressions are/were mild - now improving though as I adjust to how they feel.  For myself now, I am glad I didn't get the Filco, since the design of the MX switch plus the taller keycaps I think might make that wobble that was talked about a little too much for me.  

As to the specifics against the Dell that we both know, yes, they are smoother to me even right out of the box, though I have read that the Cherries have a "break in" period.  First impression is even that maybe  these blues are actually almost TOO light for me since I almost feel like I have to actively lift up my wrists to keep the weight of my hands from depressing the keys while hovering on the home row.  


Wow, I think the title "Goddess of the Running Blues" is well-deserved! However, I can't thank you for nearly killing yourself. I don't have a problem waiting an extra day to hear your response! :D

Still interested to hear a deeper review though, especially since I'm now thinking about getting a Topre.

So, maybe in the future, please try to refrain from chasing Fedex trucks for the sake of other geekhackers :P
(Since I think your safety is more important than a board review)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 04 August 2010, 13:04:09
Quote from: keyboardlover;209057


(Since I think your safety is more important than a board review)

Blasphemer! Personal safety is NOTHING! The quest is all that matters....  

My job, as I see it, is to ensure that I don't leave this world with  all the things it took me soo long to figure out still locked up in my  mind and of little use to anyone else! By assisting others in the common cause, I pay my dues to the Geekhack  Guild... What of Arthur without Excalibur?  A new age is upon us and how we interface is going to determine whether and how we are among those shaping that age or among those shaped by it.  Ahead of us lie battles to be fought, and one is at a disadvantage without the proper weapon. It is imperative that one have the write tool for the job!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 05 August 2010, 15:01:46
The only times I've noticed that I find typing on the AT101W to be a bit cumbersome are when I'm tired i.e. in the morning right when I wake up and at night right before bed. It seems that during these times I tend to not hit the keys as directly as I normally do. I'm assuming this would probably be the same as when I'm inebriated as well, although I haven't tested this yet :D

EDIT: I wonder if the AT101W would be a good work keyboard for me in this case? And then I would just want something a little lighter for home. Also at home noise doesn't matter too much.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 05 August 2010, 20:12:17
In that case, I would think maybe you might really like these blue boards...

Update/additional observations:
 
I have tried to focus my attention on the feel of the switch itself as opposed to specifics about the Adesso in particular, but I must say the Led's are BLINDING on this thing.  Very bright blue and actually painful to gaze directly upon.  I think I saw something about clear nail polish being a remedy for that somewhere, though. I'll have to look for it again.

The "Click" is not so much a problem in terms of noise, I think.   It's a very high-pitched and light "airy" sort of sound.  Imagine the Buckling Springs to be Pop Rocks, vs White ALPS as Rice Krispies in milk.  By comparison, the Blues on the Adesso are definitely less "krispy" than the ALPS but maybe a bit fizzy - like Alka Seltzer tablets as they first start to dissolve.  

And I definitely think there is an improvement in the way they feel after just a short amount of typing on them.  This is becoming a much more enjoyable experience to type on than when first unboxed, even though I have split the time between it and the F AT to see how I feel about that one too.  i don't know if it is a common thing across all boards, but there was a particular odd spongy resistance in the larger double width keys that was not present on the letters/numbers.  That does seem to have become less noticeable but its still present, in the SHIFT keys in particular.

The switch itself is VERY light.  I did have quite a few typos at first from my long fingers brushing adjacent keys accidentally.  I notice that on this board (probably due to the off center keypress centering design of the switch) that that slight brush was often enough to actuate the key whereas on other boards it wouldn't have registered.  That just brought to mind that picture that got me so curious about these switches to begin with:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12021&d=1281054847)    (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12021&d=1281054847)
Makes me kinda feel like my fingers have to be as pointy and precise as the stiletto's which are appropriate as the click is slightly reminiscent of the way they would sound on a hard floor (if a small woman in them were a delicate walker).

It's too bad I don't have direct experience with the browns to give a contrast and compare against, but I can confirm the idea of the blue  lacking the same friction in terms of smoothness as we have defined it here.  It's not that the friction is absent entirely, but it seems to come in to play for only the instant of actuation as opposed to being felt along the entire travel of keypress.  It is maybe this that gives me the impression that the length of key travel is shorter than on the Dell, or perhaps it actually is.

Aha! (*illumination of lightbulb over head*) I 've just understood why the clickyness of the keys was a must have for me - it is what allows me to recognize that I can stop pressing!  The tactile bump of the keys in the Dell, though present and noticeable when I am looking for it pushing down one key very slowly, is not pronounced enough to signal me while typing at speed.  The audio feedback is much more quickly recognized by my brain (and possibly because I am generally aurally oriented in my perception of anything) than the tactile and so I would rely on the bottoming out of the keypress to tell me to move on to the next key.  Hence my speed is much faster on the blues and the light touch that required keeping my wrists hovering in the air also means that it's easier to not bottom out the keypress on this board.

Wow - I think I may have just eliminated the Dell from my collection...

     Quote:
                                                 Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the  black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the  stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the  feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of  (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels?  I'm a bit confused...                      


I think you would like these blues also.  As I said before, the touch is much lighter, which caused me some typos at first until I adjusted to the weight.  This feels smoother and lighter than the Dell, lighter but less smooth than the M, and similar to the white ALPS but those don't seem to have the same "bounce" on the upstroke that the blues do. So far this is looking like a favorite for me.  And it even has a usb hub and media keys - Cool!  Me happy.

Any specific questions?  I'm gonna roll all this up into a single review with some more details on the Adesso specifically too.  What we really need is a "Keyswitch Deathmatch" sub-forum to do a one on one compare by people who have both things and then maybe we can extrapolate from those compares when making decisions between similar things, eh?   For example, now I am curious about how much of what I like about this board is specific to the brand/model as opposed to the mechanism in it.  Anybody that can do a cross examination of this board v the blues on a filco?  I think I made the right choice because I really do think that I'll use those bells and whistles media things, but curious if its possible for a board to cost so much less and still be of comparable quality.

EDIT>> After consideration, this was well worth running after the Fedex truck for if it HAD actually been in it...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 05 August 2010, 20:21:22
Quote from: Voixdelion;209646
In that case, I would think maybe you might really like these blue boards...

Is the Adesso plate-mounted or PCB-mounted?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Thu, 05 August 2010, 20:38:22
So, keyboardlover, have you made your decision yet? Which keyboard are you getting after all?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 05 August 2010, 20:51:34
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;209648
Is the Adesso plate-mounted or PCB-mounted?
I don't know actually - how can one tell?   There are pics of the innards on the review page.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 05 August 2010, 21:24:18
Well, Cherry MX switches can be mounted two ways:

(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/mx_mntop.gif)

Dunno if you can tell by just looking at the pictures of the adesso.


Edit: Yeah it is plate mounted

(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/mx_pcb_nopins.gif)
Diagram for plate-mounted

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11212&stc=1&d=1276827828)


For PCB mounted:
(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/mx_pcb_wpins.gif)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Thu, 05 August 2010, 23:06:23
So is plate mounted good or not? (Not that it matters to me overmuch, I like the board quite a lot.)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: HaaTa on Fri, 06 August 2010, 00:29:58
Well the PCB mounted cherry switches generally have a softer landing to them (all Cherry made boards that I know of are PCB mounted).

The plate mounted switches are more rigid, so the landing when you bottom out will usually be a bit harder (FILCO boards are plate mounted).

As for which is better, dunno. Depends on what your fingers like (and can handle).


Well, unless you are trying to swap out switch components (replace?). I'm pretty sure it was the PCB mounted ones that were easy/straight forward, and the plate mounted difficult/don't bother.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 08:26:58
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;209650
So, keyboardlover, have you made your decision yet? Which keyboard are you getting after all?

Well...in a word...no :D

I bought a vintage Minitouch (w/ ALPs) on ebay the other day, because I heard very good things about that keyboard and I'm a sucker for a good deal. I guess we'll see how I feel about that one and go from there. I'm still interested in adding either a blue cherry or Topre to my collection at some point though (but I would prefer not to spend money on both). That's the thing - I would go for the blue cherry but if it's more worth it to spend more on the Topre then I would just do that.

Also I'm a bit concerned that the blue cherry might be too light for my fingers. One thing I like so much about the Key Tronic is that the keys are all weighted differently, for touch typing. I think that's one of the main things that makes this board so comfortable. So I was also thinking - well maybe I'd just forget both blue cherry and Topre and get another Key Tronic! :D

So...I still haven't made up my mind yet. Very thankful for all the input though!

EDIT: Actually I wouldn't mind owning both, eventually. But buying both at once would break the bank ;)

Quote
What we really need is a "Keyswitch Deathmatch" sub-forum to do a one on one compare by people who have both things and then maybe we can extrapolate from those compares when making decisions between similar things, eh?

Agreed...that's a good idea.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 06 August 2010, 09:11:43
Quote from: HaaTa;209732
Well the PCB mounted cherry switches generally have a softer landing to them (all Cherry made boards that I know of are PCB mounted).

The plate mounted switches are more rigid, so the landing when you bottom out will usually be a bit harder (FILCO boards are plate mounted).

As for which is better, dunno. Depends on what your fingers like (and can handle).
.

So seeing that the blues actually make it possible for me to actually avoid the bottom-out issue its a moot point in this case.  Nifty.  Really liking the Adesso a lot more and more, btw.  If the Filco is actually superior to it, I would really have to get one, but I dunno, I think this ain't so bad.  (Already using that volume control quite a bit...)  Specially for the cost (@80 shipped):

 http://www.provantage.com/adesso-mkb-135b~7ADES09P.htm (http://www.provantage.com/adesso-mkb-135b%7E7ADES09P.htm)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 10:00:03
Quote from: Voixdelion;209796
So seeing that the blues actually make it possible for me to actually avoid the bottom-out issue its a moot point in this case.  Nifty.  Really liking the Adesso a lot more and more, btw.  If the Filco is actually superior to it, I would really have to get one, but I dunno, I think this ain't so bad.  (Already using that volume control quite a bit...)  Specially for the cost (@80 shipped):

 http://www.provantage.com/adesso-mkb-135b~7ADES09P.htm (http://www.provantage.com/adesso-mkb-135b%7E7ADES09P.htm)


The price is definitely better than Filco...but I'm also leery after seeing a lot of talk questing both Adesso and Filco's quality, although you seem to be happy with the Adesso. You got the MKB-135B right?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: instantkamera on Fri, 06 August 2010, 10:01:45
get a das.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 10:34:47
Quote from: instantkamera;209804
get a das.

Why?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read the Das thread. Seems that the quality of all Cherry blue boards (except those made by Cherry) is argued. Maybe I'll just wait until the G80-3000LSCRC-2 is back in stock (or get one used).

2nd EDIT: The G813000LRNUS2  (http://www.barcodediscount.com/catalog/cherry/part-g813000lrnus2.htm)is in stock and it says it has mechanical switches. Does that one have blues?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 11:20:51
they all have problems (tho some less than others), which is why its all the more important to buy from a full service vendor where you have some recourse if its not up to your expectations. das is a full service vendor  (http://www.daskeyboard.com/guarantee/)(30 days to return or exchange - no questions asked, no accusations, no hassles, no arguments).

provantage is a full service vendor too.
http://www.provantage.com/scripts/return.dll (http://www.provantage.com/scripts/return.dll)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 11:56:31
Quote from: ripster;209834
You're just pissed that both Elitekeyboards (Majestouch) and Ebay seller (Brian O'Neill) have put you on "banned customer" lists.
 (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=102138&postcount=25)
As I like saying, the "The Customer is NOT always right! In fact you'd be SURPRISED at all the idiots out there".


speaking of idiots... ah, the white knight has arrived!  I was wondering where you were :)

Oh yea, 'banned' for pointing out (along with others here) the slow response on the filco :)  (Apparently its a "feature").
As for brian, after he sent me the wrong keyboard, I made the mistake of pointing out that I shouldnt have to pay return shipping for what was his mistake.

The vendors arent always right either rippy, and its clear who's side you're on.

Like i said, the lesson I learned was to stick with full service vendors. Its a lesson I gladly pass on.  The keyboard business is just a business, no one cares about quality and there are few ways to protect yourself when you're paying hundreds of dollars.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:20:58
I've heard a lot of both good and bad stuff about Brian's customer support. Some people like him and some hate him. But I know that if he put me on a "banned customer list" for objecting to paying return shipping I'd just ship him a nice 1-star review.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:25:39
Quote from: ripster;209834
You're just pissed that both Elitekeyboards (Majestouch) and Ebay seller Rarekeyboardstore 99.5% Approval (http://myworld.ebay.com/rarekeyboardstore/) (Brian O'Neill) have put you on "banned customer" lists.
 (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=102138&postcount=25)
As I like saying, the "The Customer is NOT always right! In fact you'd be SURPRISED at all the idiots out there".

Personally, I don't think I would want ever to buy something from someone who has a "banned customer list" :rolleyes:
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:26:03
Quote from: microsoft windows;209840
I've heard a lot of both good and bad stuff about Brian's customer support. Some people like him and some hate him. But I know that if he put me on a "banned customer list" for objecting to paying return shipping I'd just ship him a nice 1-star review.


I tend to just not leave a review rather than leave a 1-star one; two reasons:
1) I dont care that much (ripster seems to care about that far more than I do)
2) vindictive sellers will often in turn leave you a 1-star review even when it wasnt your fault, ruining  your 100% feedback (on nearly 700 transactions) as I currently have on ebay.  (Of course, ripster would have you believe i'm a bad businessman or something). That doesnt include my 100% rating on amazon selling, too :)  I'm actually quite proud of those :)

A lot of people will simply not leave a review for that reason. Fighting unjust feedback is a long drawn out process that is a pain in the butt.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:29:32
Quote from: keyboardlover;209847
Personally, I don't think I would want ever to buy something from someone who has a "banned customer list" :rolleyes:


my sentiments exactly. Or vendors who take the time to come on these forums and accuse their customers of making things up.  Seriously, this isnt the ****ing 19th century.

Ripster of course is all for that kind of  behaviour. Its always the customers fault.

Like I said, its not worth fighting over cuz there's no clean resolution to such arguments. The lesson I've learned for myself is to just stick with full service vendors who have publically published 30-day policies for return/exchange. Thats the safe thing to do. These keyboards are not inexpensive especially when it becomes a hobby.

The other lesson I learned was that while we may care about keyboards, the business itself does not. Its just a business. If they can get away with making cheap or problematic keyboards, they will.

This is the (theoretical) value of a site like GH, its value for customers, a place to input all experiences, both good and bad and everything in between.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:30:29
Wellington, you'd make a great Catholic with a suffering and persecution complex like that...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:41:41
Quote from: ch_123;209855
Wellington, you'd make a great Catholic with a suffering and persecution complex like that...


I'm a Catholic and I don't appreciate that. If you have a problem with Catholics, kindly keep it out of my thread. Thanks.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:43:09
Quote from: keyboardlover;209857
I'm a Catholic and I don't appreciate that. If you have a problem with Catholics, kindly keep it out of my thread. Thanks.


As an Irishman, I am qualified to say whatever I want about Catholicism. Especially after what the church did to my country...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:43:42
Lol well, I used to think this was a great messageboard...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:44:57
Quote from: ch_123;209859
As an Irishman, I am qualified to say whatever I want about Catholicism. Especially after what the church did to my country...

Got a problem with it? Tough.


I suppose that as an Irishman though, you wouldn't have the "class" to keep your religious opinions out of a thread about computer keyboards though, would you?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 12:49:44
Quote from: keyboardlover;209861
I suppose that as an Irishman though, you wouldn't have the "class" to keep your religious opinions out of a thread about computer keyboards though, would you?


I'm technically a Catholic too. Getting excommunicated is not as easy as it used to be back in the good 'ole days...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 13:05:59
Quote from: ch_123;209863
I'm technically a Catholic too. Getting excommunicated is not as easy as it used to be back in the good 'ole days...

I've read quite a bit and I know that being 'Irish Catholic' is hard and I know what a lot of people in your country have gone through. But I disagree with blaming the church as a whole, since being a Catholic is not the same in other parts of the world (despite what the pope may think or claim).
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 13:46:24
Quote from: ripster;209877
You guys are going Off Topic.  I was in the middle of calling Welly a liar.

And BTW he accuses the Pope of Genocide.


Lol, you're NOT helping...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 13:58:11
Quote from: keyboardlover;209869
I've read quite a bit and I know that being 'Irish Catholic' is hard and I know what a lot of people in your country have gone through. But I disagree with blaming the church as a whole, since being a Catholic is not the same in other parts of the world (despite what the pope may think or claim).


The Church as an organization, even up to the Vatican level, was very ambivalent to the bad things that the priests and bishops on the ground were doing. The fact that cover ups like the ones in Ireland are popping up in places such as Germany, Belgium, the US, Canada and others suggest that it wasn't just a once off.

But I agree, we're going waaaay off, let's just say no more for it.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: HaaTa on Fri, 06 August 2010, 13:59:41
Quote from: ripster;209877
You guys are going Off Topic.  I was in the middle of calling Welly a liar.

And BTW he accuses the Pope of Genocide.


Hmm, lemme see.



What do these three things have in common?


If keyboards was the first thing that came to mind, you need some serious help.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 14:09:24
Quote from: ch_123;209884
The Church as an organization, even up to the Vatican level, was very ambivalent to the bad things that the priests and bishops on the ground were doing. The fact that cover ups like the ones in Ireland are popping up in places such as Germany, Belgium, the US, Canada and others suggest that it wasn't just a once off.

But I agree, we're going waaaay off, let's just say no more for it.


I don't disagree...just saying it's not the same experience I had nor many others that I know. It's also an organization that's done a lot of good things that it doesn't get credit for. Priests have power and power corrupts. They also aren't allowed to marry, which I personally (and most of the Catholics I know) don't agree with.

(As you might be able to tell, for me being a Catholic is more about how you conduct yourself as an individual than anything else). And that's what I was taught to believe. This isn't the same as what is taught elsewhere, I'm afraid.

We've already gone way off. I've accepted it at this point :P
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: instantkamera on Fri, 06 August 2010, 14:22:20
Quote from: keyboardlover;209890


We've already gone way off. I've accepted it at this point :P


keyboardlover, Internet. Internet, keyboardlover. My apologies for not introducing you sooner, I thought you had already met.

I recommended the DAS because, while they HAVE had problems in the past, the recent iteration (which I can never remember the name of) is, by most accounts, a decent rival to the filcos.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 14:37:04
Quote from: instantkamera;209892
keyboardlover, Internet. Internet, keyboardlover. My apologies for not introducing you sooner, I thought you had already met.


Thanks, I appreciate that. I don't believe I've met sarcasm, would you be so kind as to introduce us?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: instantkamera on Fri, 06 August 2010, 14:38:36
Quote from: keyboardlover;209894
Thanks, I appreciate that. I don't believe I've met sarcasm, would you be so kind as to introduce us?


Oh, I see what you did there.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 14:53:49
Quote from: ripster;209900
Das is good if you can get the student discount and don't mind the gloss (here's my review - 14K hits so somebody's reading it (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6300)).  Their trouble ticket system (they sell it as Mojo Helpdesk - dropping the Germanic pretensions and going for Cajun I guess) really sucks though.   I've used it twice to RMA keyboards. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=101996&postcount=298)


How much is the discount?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 15:20:55
Quote from: ripster;209907
It ends up costing almost exactly $100.

Best thing to do is to call Erin directly at Metadot and ask for the discount.  Their trouble ticket system sucks so best just to call.

Use this ID if she asks for proof.
Show Image
(http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl1/1/13254/31_2008/haha.jpg)


LOL good to know...thanks for the info
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 16:03:50
Quote from: ripster;209858
Oh.  Here we go.  Sounded like you swapped the USB version for the PS/2 version. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=99389&postcount=58)


I'm not sure why you expected Brian O'Neill to pay return shipping for that.

But then you are a pretentious twat so I don't know how your mind works.


lol, you're right, the reason i got banned was even more stupid than that (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=102138&postcount=25).

(Shows how little I cared about the whole incident).

But to clarify, so in our email exchange he indicated the return shipping would be free, and later I was charged for it. (which was what had surprised me). Now I dont care either way about return shipping,  and after paying it I merely indicated to him what he had said in his email and merely suggested to him that he should clarify his return shipping policies so there's no confusion for his customers in the future. Thats what I got banned for.

And oh yea rippy, thats a much better reason for banning customers.  

Dumb ass.

From 11 june 2009 (linked above):
Quote

did i mention i pissed off the esteemed brian? I tried to swap one keyb for another, he said fine, then charged me for return shipping, which I didnt expect. Which is fine, but I told him he should mention that in his return policy. Next thing I know I received a *very* sarcastic email informing me of the type of low lifeform I was, and he was giving me the shipping back but I was "banned" from his store forever more. Whatever. Seemed like a bit of an over-reaction, but you never know who you'll meet online :)

And anyway I took it as a sign from the gods to not keep buying keyboards that I dont need. :)


If this is what it takes to get "banned" by your favorite vendors, I bear the ban quite proudly.  Give me metadot and provantage any day.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 06 August 2010, 16:23:43
Quote from: keyboardlover;209860
Lol well, I used to think this was a great messageboard...


Don't get worked up. Ch_123's just a jerk. Don't let one bad apple ruin the whole bunch.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 06 August 2010, 16:26:42
Quote from: keyboardlover;202274
Ok cool...that's helpful info. I think I might get a cheap Compaq MX 11800 too just to see if I like Cherry Brown's (I know they take way less force than the AT101W but who knows)...the addiction has started :P


The brown Cherry switches are very smooth and light, but if you use one, make sure to type lightly as they are low-force switches.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 06 August 2010, 16:40:04
Quote from: microsoft windows;209929
The brown Cherry switches are very smooth and light, but if you use one, make sure to type lightly as they are low-force switches.


Yea, I already discussed that in a previous post; that's exactly why I didn't like them.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 06 August 2010, 16:41:15
Quote from: kishy;209943
Here's an idea: how about you stop giving info and advice on topics you're not qualified* to do so for in an attempt to make yourself look like a valuable, contributing member of the community**.


* "qualified" IMHO would require currently owning or having owned in the past multiple keyboards of the switch type in question

** if the implication wasn't strong enough, you have been neither valuable or contributing in recent times. Nobody finds you funny or cute - we're all sick of it.


I've used keyboards with brown Cherry switches, including a friend's Compaq MX1800. So I think I have at least some knowledge on how they feel. I know I don't say a lot of valuable stuff, but I know at least  a little bit about most keyboards.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: washuai on Fri, 06 August 2010, 17:59:23
Quote from: keyboardlover;209812
Why?

2nd EDIT: The G813000LRNUS2  (http://www.barcodediscount.com/catalog/cherry/part-g813000lrnus2.htm)is in stock and it says it has mechanical switches. Does that one have blues?

No G81 != MX switches of any flavor.

I'm not into troll feeding. When someone new to switches has demonstrated a taste for higher force clicky switches, then I think MSW was completely in line to remind that browns are smooth and low force.  For me, that's why I like them and why I expect to like Topre.
I'd also like to remind, people make a big deal about bottoming out on low force boards.  Really, as long as the noise isn't bothering anyone,it can still feel better to ones fingers, than not bottoming out on BS or cherry blacks, etc.  It does make a good note, that better feedback results in less bottoming out, which leads to somewhat faster typing.  I could see, even if someone bottomed out like crazy, still preferring a lower force board, depending on their priorities and preferences.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 06 August 2010, 18:43:10
Quote from: microsoft windows;209948
I've used keyboards with brown Cherry switches, including a friend's Compaq MX1800. So I think I have at least some knowledge on how they feel. I know I don't say a lot of valuable stuff, but I know at least  a little bit about most keyboards.


This confirms that I was right to say that you have two personalities :-)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 06 August 2010, 18:48:12
Quote from: washuai;209974
No G81 != MX switches of any flavor.

I'd also like to remind, people make a big deal about bottoming out on low force boards.  Really, as long as the noise isn't bothering anyone,it can still feel better to ones fingers, than not bottoming out on BS or cherry blacks, etc.  It does make a good note, that better feedback results in less bottoming out, which leads to somewhat faster typing.  I could see, even if someone bottomed out like crazy, still preferring a lower force board, depending on their priorities and preferences.


Not bottoming out was the Cherry on the cake for me. Or, should I say not bottoming out heavily. I think most of us, if not all, do bottom out, but at various force. I also think that we should not think about the bottoming out thing. The first thing is to get to know the keyboard. Once we know a keyboard well, we "can become one with the keyboard." Then, we will be able to not bottom out heavily. Last, I believe that swapping keyboard regularly will cause one to bottom out more heavily. I noticed that when I move from my brown Cherry to my Topre. The Topre requires more of the force needed at the beginning of the travel.

Also, I may be wrong, my blue Cherry G80-3000 keys needed to be broken in. After some usage, the keys were smoother.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: washuai on Fri, 06 August 2010, 18:53:57
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;209986

Also, I may be wrong, my blue Cherry G80-3000 keys needed to be broken in. After some usage, the keys were smoother.


I think you're spot on.  The need for cherry break in is in various posts.  Break in isn't just a Filco thing, it is a Cherry MX tactile switch thing.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 06 August 2010, 19:02:40
People may think Ripster and Welly are two fighting spouses. You said this...and you said this...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 06 August 2010, 19:05:25
Quote from: washuai;209987
I think you're spot on.  The need for cherry break in is in various posts.  Break in isn't just a Filco thing, it is a Cherry MX tactile switch thing.


Yes. When new, the blue Cherry keys are stiffer. Then after some time typing on it, they became looser.
Note: I'm talking about keyboards.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 06 August 2010, 19:44:49
Quote from: keyboardlover;209847
Personally, I don't think I would want ever to buy something from someone who has a "banned customer list" :rolleyes:

This is a stupid self-defeating business practice.  INGdirect has a policy of firing customers who call customer service too much.  

Quote from: keyboardlover;209812
Maybe I'll just wait until the G80-3000LSCRC-2 is back in stock (or get one used).

2nd EDIT: The G813000LRNUS2  (http://www.barcodediscount.com/catalog/cherry/part-g813000lrnus2.htm)is in stock and it says it has mechanical switches. Does that one have blues?

In the Cherry models, you want the second letter in the model # suffix (as in G80-3000LSCRC-2 or G813000LRNUS2) to be "F", "S" or "W"  to indicate Blue switches  - hence the first G80 will have blues but the G81 will not- I finally figured out that much after getting a headache trying to absorb the wiki on that specifically...

Quote from: ripster;209862
We tend to go off topic after page 7 in a "What Keyboard To Buy" post.
Actually, I noticed it averages around a three page threshold for maintaining focus... on anything.  But don't take it personal, whatever you do.  It's just that without Webwit, there's no focal point for the trolling energy; Since he departed it seems to have gone a bit everywhere. We shall have to appoint a new troll lighting rod to take his place, and there seem to be several folks vying for such an honorable position.  I think Ripster wants it the most though...  In general, if it gets distressing, there is a useful "ignore" feature.  Most of the time I can do that without a button though...

Oh, and yes - I got the Adesso MKB-135b.  I did have to press and seat each keycap to even them out a little more as has been discussed, but now that's done I don't feel like there's any looseness in them beyond the designed "wobble" that is supposed to make for smoother off-center keypresses.  (What had interested me in the Filco was the taller keycap combined with the MX design of transferring the force.  My fingers are of some substantial difference in length and I was thinking that the larger surface area available to each might ease wrist tension somewhat if it were conducive to a more relaxed typing experience.  But it seems that I was already having accidental actuation of adjacent keys on this board, so if the Filco has more available area to do that in, then the issue might be even more pronounced.)  

While I would not disagree with some of the aesthetic complaints regarding the alignment of the keys printed legends, I can't say that it really bothers me at all.  I don't find that nearly as distracting as the brightness of the damn blue led; the color is pleasant, just needs a dimmer switch!... I don't look at the keyboard much anyway, but I do like the look of it better than both Filco and Das though I can't really say why.  I'm actually thinking about grabbing a second one since I like it so much.  With NKRO and the Media bells plus the USB hub, I'm thinking any build inferiority is kinda made up for in the features to dollar ratio.  And as long as she doesn't poop out for no reason or do strange things, I'm loathe to complain about it not being quality enough, at this point.  This is almost certainly the favorite of the lot thus far just for the volume control at the fingertips.  ****, if it had a calculator/numpad like the focus boards I might not even need those! (But THAT is pretty badass, though.  Wonder why that never caught on?)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 06 August 2010, 19:48:57
Quote from: ch_123;202243
Any debate on whether Topres are worth the money tends to evolve around a metaphysical debate on what it means for something to be 'worth the money'
Instead of metaphysics, I suppose this is something for the individual to judge - based on how much money he has available to him.

What is worth the money to one person, therefore, won't be to another, simply because of the value to them of whatever they would have to give up to spend that much money.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Fri, 06 August 2010, 20:09:05
G81 indicates Cherry MY switches, which are GOD AWFUL. Avoid at all costs. Period. And usually when you see "G80/G81" that means "G81 but we know they're unpopular, so we'll give people hope it's G80".
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: spolia optima on Fri, 06 August 2010, 20:41:02
MY switches are just fine if you are a masochist.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 05:01:45
Quote from: Voixdelion;210015
This is a stupid self-defeating business practice.  INGdirect has a policy of firing customers who call customer service too much.


Not if any further potential business is going to lead to more hassle than it's worth?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sat, 07 August 2010, 10:43:13
Quote from: ch_123;210090
Not if any further potential business is going to lead to more hassle than it's worth?
 
Isn't that some sort of fallacy in that statement?  0 business = 0 Worth so unless the customer is actively costing more than their own business it's still more worthwhile to have it - that tdoesn't even take into account what business is gained through them indirectly.     Generally I wouldn't advise firing your customers as a particularly sustainable practice.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 16:23:55
Quote from: kishy;209943
Here's an idea: how about you stop giving info and advice on topics you're not qualified* to do so for in an attempt to make yourself look like a valuable, contributing member of the community**.


* "qualified" IMHO would require currently owning or having owned in the past multiple keyboards of the switch type in question

** if the implication wasn't strong enough, you have been neither valuable or contributing in recent times. Nobody finds you funny or cute - we're all sick of it.


come on kishy, over on the keytronics thread, nearly everyone who was dissing keytronics had never ever typed on one before. Didnt stop them (and no one stopped them), right?

I agree that some experience makes one's valuations look stronger, but you never know who has typed on what board unless they declare these things in the signature or something and not everyone does that.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 16:28:40
Quote from: ch_123;210090
Not if any further potential business is going to lead to more hassle than it's worth?


at what point do they decide that? After one call? Or after 100? Makes a difference, ya?  What if that call is arbitrary? Then its quite self defeating. The professional thing to do is handle all customers the same way - and thats in fact what professional outlets (from amazon to provantage to metadot) in fact do.  To not do it is to make a name for yourself as arbitrary and inconsistent or worse. And customers remember these experiences and pass them on to each other.  Far more business is lost than gained.

Professionalism is a great thing when dealing with your customers who are your bread and butter; whether a mom and pop store or a walrmart.  

Of course, there are plenty of outlets out there that forget this (two mentioned in this thread already). I think they live with the consequnces and thats their choice to make.

[Edit: What Voix said.]
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 16:40:16
Quote from: kishy;210188
My concern is not his lack of experience but rather stretching what experience he has to cover up his utterly worthless posts on the site (fraudulently creating the right to say "see, look, I posted on-topic")


i know a lot of his posts are like that, but was it so wrong to point out that browns are light? Did he really do much more than that?

note i'm not the only one whose saying this, a few posts up, washui said the same:

Quote from: washuai;209974


I'm not into troll feeding. When someone new to switches has demonstrated a taste for higher force clicky switches, then I think MSW was completely in line to remind that browns are smooth and low force.  For me, that's why I like them and why I expect to like Topre.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 07 August 2010, 16:44:09
I used to try and contribute good advice and information, but some folks here got nasty because I was a cheapie. So I decided that instead of leaving, I'd give myself something to do and get some entertainment by having sport with the jerks. But when somebody asks for advice on something I know about, I still like to give useful information.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6450&do=comments&highlight=disassembled+keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6450&do=comments&highlight=disassembled+keyboard)
Yes, I used to actually contribute information and stories about mechanical keyboards. Can you all believe it?

I don't think anybody replied to the thread I linked (I forgot about the whole ordeal with that old M5-2 too!). It's a good read though.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 07 August 2010, 16:55:15
Webwit didn't give me too much of a hard time. I actually helped him get the M5-1 keyboard he was looking for.

I don't damage the image of the forum that much. Most forums tend to have at least one "crazy guy". It's more a few other members who are outright rude and insulting (I won't name them but I think you know) who you ought to be concerned about.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 07 August 2010, 17:00:15
Oh, I forgot! That was after I reported a post of his. He got kind of sour after that. You're bringing back memories.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 17:18:15
Quote from: microsoft windows;210191
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6450&do=comments&highlight=disassembled+keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6450&do=comments&highlight=disassembled+keyboard)
Yes, I used to actually contribute information and stories about mechanical keyboards. Can you all believe it?


One useful post out of 3,200+? Impressive.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:00:07
Quote from: ch_123;210204
One useful post out of 3,200+? Impressive.


just sayin'.

btw, are we trying to lynch him for "uselessness"? Or for being offensive?

If "uselessness", I wonder if we should apply that criterion to ourselves too. Starting with, say, endless lego figurines.  Btw you know the "off topic" forum on gh is probably the largest section on this site. Lets put the microscope on all the posts there. It would only be fair.

If we're trying to lynch him for offensiveness, speaking for myself i've yet to see persuasive evidence of systematic offensiveness. There were a couple of truncated attempts to call him or EIBM a racist which didnt quite get anywhere. Just sayin'.

I know a post like this will make me even more unpopular among certain gh'ers, though I dont get why. I dont think i'm saying anything un-obvious here (or that hasnt been said by others).  I do consider most of you my friends, fwiw.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:04:18
30 day ban.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:14:29
So in regards to my decision; I've decided to not get anything else for a while, but eventually I will get a blue cherry board (not Filco) and a used Topre.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:14:46
Quote from: kishy;210210
Your points are valid, welly. However, they don't apply to MW because MW has even stated the fact himself that he is only here to irritate people and drag the place down. He requires no defense and should not be given one because he's said this...case closed, banhammer deserved (but won't be used, I'm sure).


stating it is one thing, actually doing it is another. I dont think he's actually done it.  Being off-topic doesnt count on a site that is like 70% off topic all the time (by our own admission, we go off topic by the 7th post in a given thread, if not sooner).

are we going to ban him for being off-topic in a bunch of posts? He hasnt targeted anyone and he hasnt been over-the-top offensive.  What happened to "if he bothers you, put him on the ignore list"?  IMav rarely bans anyone, it has to be something really grossly obvious for them to get banned (like a porn spammer or something).
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:17:37
Quote from: keyboardlover;210219
So in regards to my decision; I've decided to not get anything else for a while


I admire your self control, lol.  Probably a wise decision.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:19:03
Quote from: iMav;210211
30 day ban.


holy crap, what was he banned for?  For being off topic?!?!!?!  

He may have declared himself to be a troll, but you'd be hard pressed to find actual evidence of the kind of trolling that deserves a ban -- on this site of all sites!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:21:03
Honestly guys, if you ask me MW just got banned for being unpopular among a small click of regulars. That was about it.

And so a new era dawns on geekhack.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:22:30
What happened to the "loosely governed" site? What happened to using the ignore list? Holy crap, i'm genuinely shocked here.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:37:14
Quote from: wellington1869;210220
stating it is one thing, actually doing it is another. I dont think he's actually done it.  Being off-topic doesnt count on a site that is like 70% off topic all the time (by our own admission, we go off topic by the 7th post in a given thread, if not sooner).

are we going to ban him for being off-topic in a bunch of posts? He hasnt targeted anyone and he hasnt been over-the-top offensive.  What happened to "if he bothers you, put him on the ignore list"?  IMav rarely bans anyone, it has to be something really grossly obvious for them to get banned (like a porn spammer or something).


There is a difference between going off topic, and malicious derailment.

What was it that you were saying about relativity the other week?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:39:57
Quote from: ch_123;210234
There is a difference between going off topic, and malicious derailment.


Lol, 'Malicious Derailment' sounds like a punk rock band name :D
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 07 August 2010, 18:51:14
Quote from: microsoft windows;210191
I used to try and contribute good advice and information, but some folks here got nasty because I was a cheapie. So I decided that instead of leaving, I'd give myself something to do and get some entertainment by having sport with the jerks.
He gets a 30 day ban for publicly declaring he is here to jerk around the membership.  I have over 100 PM's from users complaining about him...but I saw no reason to ban or kick him.  

This statement, however, says to me that he is just here to crap all over the forum.  THAT crosses a line with me.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 07 August 2010, 21:52:02
Quote from: ripster;210129
Why would I want that job?   The trolls around here are so unfunny. They have the sense of humor of Canadians and are almost as boring.

Except of course for lmnop.  She's special.


Ahem...Canadian HEREEEEEEEEEEE. Well, not by birth though :-)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 07 August 2010, 22:04:30
Quote from: iMav;210240
I have over 100 PM's from users complaining about him...


from the same 3 people? Not that it matters anymore, but there was a PM campaign against him, it was semi-organized. Smells of astro-turf rather than grass-roots.  Just saying. Yea it doesnt matter anymore, I know.

As for his declaring himself being here to crap on us, someone like webwit did that once a day. And actually followed through, too.

And 30 days instead of 7? Without a warning first? Seems uncharacteristically harsh, is all.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 07 August 2010, 22:28:55
Quote from: kishy;210299
...to say the least have found not a single person who thinks he helps.


I thought he was helpful when he pointed out that Brown Cherries need very little force. I know that this could represent 0.000001% of his total posts, but he was right in this regard. That's my opinion anyway.

I will certainly miss his presence. It's like a movie without an "*******," like American Pie without Stiffler.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Sun, 08 August 2010, 04:16:30
I have to say I wouldn't worry overmuch about how he affects the image of geekhack in general.   I've been thinking quite a bit about this forum and why I have settled in here with such enthusiasm, and I know there is more to it than a common interest in quality input devices.  There is something about that perhaps that attracts the type of person I encounter here.  That for reasons that aren't immediately obvious a certain commonality of thought or experience or imagination exists that creates not just the interest in the device, but the desire to examine in minute detail and describe both the object of interest and the interest itself.  I think that the ordinary anyone who might come by here doesn't actually exist because this forum is likely what it is because of the mentality that drew us to it  in the first place, and it appears that part of that mentality is a predisposition to be able to detect and filter out the bull****.  

I have to say I'd only noticed it a couple of times and very recently that there may have been some overboard childishness going back and forth but my bs filter worked well enough that I couldn't identify who was involved even if I could find reason to try.  I remember the posts that have helped much more than the ones that haven't - even when they are still entertaining.  If they aren't at least that, I don't remember them at all. so no harm no foul.   One of the wisest things i ever heard was to the tune of, " If  someone is really horrible to you or others, and really seems to GET to you like that, try thinking of it this way:  Just be glad you're not them!"

Trolls will eventually die of starvation - as long as they don't get fed.

Quote from: iMav;210240
He gets a 30 day ban for publicly declaring he is  here to jerk around the membership.  I have over 100 PM's from users  complaining about him...but I saw no reason to ban or kick him.  

This statement, however, says to me that he is just here to crap all  over the forum.  THAT crosses a line with me.


Sound reasoning, that.   I've said it before I think, but still holds true- Nice place ya got here, iMav...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 08 August 2010, 04:49:46
This is when MW became a problem. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10806)

There's some things the report button can't fix. Example, the reception for new members.

Quote
I will certainly miss his presence. It's like a movie without an "*******," like American Pie without Stiffler.


You're talking about the departure of Webwit, right?
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: nanu on Sun, 08 August 2010, 08:19:54
I for one miss the wild duck and hardly ever felt any trolling from him ┐(-.-;)┌
(http://www.japanator.com/~japanator/elephant/ul/4680-550x-1215174867371.jpg)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 August 2010, 09:54:23
Quote from: ch_123;210331


You're talking about the departure of Webwit, right?


You know very well I meant Microsoft Windows :-)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: BigBrother on Sun, 08 August 2010, 12:49:26
Quote from: John Deer;210385
I don't know if Microsoft Windows will return. But I'm here to let us all get this mess done and over with.
what mess? tl;dr
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 08 August 2010, 12:54:09
Quote from: ripster;210418
20 one line posts in an hour.  

John Deer, you sure we haven't met?


MW must seriously have no life (although that was already clear)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sun, 08 August 2010, 14:02:14
Quote from: keyboardlover;210420
MW must seriously have no life (although that was already clear)


We can say the same about a lot of us, can't we? :-) This forum is very addictive. For sure, I've spent more time here than I should have. Proof, I'm reading and posting comments. I do this at work too. From time to time, I would pop my head and check what's new. Thank Goodness I'm not addicted to Facebook.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 08 August 2010, 16:43:15
Taking part is one thing. Taking part with the sole remit of trolling is another. Making a second account after you've been banned so that you can come back and refer to yourself in the third person in a completely un-ironic way... Well, y'know...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 11 August 2010, 07:06:33
Quote from: keyboardlover;210219
So in regards to my decision; I've decided to not get anything else for a while, but eventually I will get a blue cherry board (not Filco) and a used Topre.

So, after realizing how important nkro is to me (which I hadn't realized before) and that I probably won't like the sound of cherry blue (I like the sound of the browns and the white alps are about as loud as I'd like), I've decided to only get one more board and it will either be cherry clear, brown or topre with NKRO. Currently looking for a good deal (prefer black color).

EDIT: So, I'm looking for suggestions. I'm trying to figure out what is the cheapest option here. Has to be NKRO, be black in color and have browns, clears or topre.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Wed, 11 August 2010, 09:25:01
Quote from: ripster;211333
Cheap rules out Topre.

I just posted a Cherry MX8100 with Cherry Clears for $19 BIN but it sold an hour after I posted the link.  Gotta be quick to get the deals!


I know...I liked that one; only thing I didn't like is that it was white. If something like that came up that was black with nkro I would jump on it! I would consider the Topre if it was a good deal (and frankly I wouldn't care about the color either).
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Wed, 11 August 2010, 15:41:14
Hmm.  Interesting how much different frequency/pitch affects the irritation factor.  I actually think the blues are less "noisy" than the white alps.   While I think both switches are similar in terms of actual volume, I feel like the Alps have a seemingly more echoey and extended click while blues have a crisp staccato where the sound is not as sustained. Reminds of that sonic device (I think it's called the 'Mosquito') which  is supposed to prevent teens loitering (in front of businesses, for  example) by emitting an annoying sound which is not audible to most  adults due to the tendency to lose the ability to hear the higher frequencies as we age...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 20 August 2010, 08:43:16
Quote from: keyboardlover;211337
I know...I liked that one; only thing I didn't like is that it was white. If something like that came up that was black with nkro I would jump on it! I would consider the Topre if it was a good deal (and frankly I wouldn't care about the color either).


So, I ended up going for the Topre for a bunch of reasons: I didn't want to spend more than $100 on a keyboard unless I got a Topre, it seems to be the closest feel to the Keytronic, and I got it on sale/am selling a couple keyboards to make up for the price. In the end it basically costs the same as two decent cherry boards anyway.

Also I noticed an interesting thing; as much as I like the AT101W at first, in the end I decided I liked the MX11800 much better than it. So Cherry browns won out! So, if I like the Topre best my favorite switches/keyboards will be:
1. Topre
2. Cherry brown
3. Key Tronic

Haven't gotten the Realforce yet, but I will update when I do!
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 August 2010, 09:53:32
Glad you got the Realforce on a blind Topre buy.  The HHKB would have left you wanting in terms of keyfeel.  Now that I have a RF, I love Topres, but I really miss the HHKB layout.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 20 August 2010, 12:56:27
Often you can find samples of the switches used in 2 and 3 in 1, so there is an opportunity to try-before-you-buy.  Number 4, and Topre specifically, you pretty much have to buy blind or have a friend that has one.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 20 August 2010, 15:27:40
Quote from: keyboardlover;214855
So, I ended up going for the Topre...

:jaw:

 That was fast; looks like Patrick and I had you pegged for not getting out of this forum cheap, but you don't ****foot around do you?.  Good for you!  You'll probably love it.  I don't think I've seen a comment about anyone not liking the Topre once they've built up the courage (or funds) to get one. (and speaking of Patrick - still waiting for you to chime on the "what have you bought" thread; as you said, we seem to have had some parallel experiences.)
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Jalal on Fri, 20 August 2010, 17:38:16
I think i barely regreted going for a good but expensive choice, but i often regreted saving money on the wrong products. So Topre was hopefully a good investment for you.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: Voixdelion on Fri, 20 August 2010, 17:58:11
Quote from: Jalal;215143
I think i barely regreted going for a good but expensive choice, but i often regreted saving money on the wrong products. So Topre was hopefully a good investment for you.

Very good point- and something I would do well to remember.  You may see yourself quoted on my facebook page...
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: keyboardlover on Fri, 20 August 2010, 18:03:16
Quote from: Jalal;215143
I think i barely regreted going for a good but expensive choice, but i often regreted saving money on the wrong products. So Topre was hopefully a good investment for you.


I've found the only time I've regretting things like that is when I didn't belabor over the decision and really do my homework beforehand. Nowadays I do that with nearly every purchase I make over $100 (dunno why I guess I'm just more careful with money). In the end though, I guess the Realforce just seemed like the best investment. And since I type for a living, I consider my keyboard to be an investment.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 20 August 2010, 18:04:27
Quote from: ripster;214952
I'm not sure I get the logic of "once I'm over $100 I might as well go to $200" but I think you'll like the RealForce.

I tend to think it of it as:

1.  Good deals under $50 - used, free from dumpster,  Ebay finds
2.  Mainstream Mechanicals - $50-$100 - Adesso, Scorpius, Steelseries 6GV2
3.  Great quality and/or Feature Laden LED lit - $100 - $200- Das, Filco, Deck, the new Razer/Scorpius
4.  Boutique Topre - $200 Plus

And of course like most products there is usually a direct corellation with price/quality but diminishing returns as you go up the price curve.  Like the all metal keyboards.  Or the Optimus Maximus Biggus ****us.


Having tried both a Topre keyboard and a Brown Cherry keyboard, I would gladly say that I'd pay twice the money for the Topre.
Title: wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 20 August 2010, 20:28:02
Quote from: Voixdelion;215108
:jaw:

 That was fast; looks like Patrick and I had you pegged for not getting out of this forum cheap, but you don't ****foot around do you?.  Good for you!  You'll probably love it.  I don't think I've seen a comment about anyone not liking the Topre once they've built up the courage (or funds) to get one. (and speaking of Patrick - still waiting for you to chime on the "what have you bought" thread; as you said, we seem to have had some parallel experiences.)


Yea, I still have to chime in on that thread.